[Mini 1205] Tough Guy Mafia - Game Over!

[Horrifying Hero]

I'm going to be honest:

When I said, "Mastin has been doing most of our posting", a better choice of words would be, "Mastin has done every single post not marked with a Lat signature at the end." And when I've been saying, "wall incoming", I meant, "LAT'S wall incoming". Meaning I've been trying to get him to post in here. He just asked me to post his wall.

Anyway, here's

my

rational behind the claim. It was supposed to be a fun, productive way to start the game because,

A.

I figured it would bypass all that RVS bullshit and start the REAL game asap. Plus, without even asking I'd have a decent profile of each player who reacted, I'd know where they stand on certain aspects of theory. Better yet, I was looking forward to seeing some heat some people so I could determine who's attacks are genuine and so forth.

B.

It was fun.

But, it didn't go as planned. You see, I was inspired by Hoopla's gambit here, but I switched PGO with miller because I saw KKN on the playlist. I wasn't expecting everyone to ignore it, and I thought it'd be a brilliant way to see how scum would react seeing as it's not the standard run of the mill game start, and it'd FORCE them to react unconventionally.

Anyway, Wick pretty much ruined it. But here's what I got from his posts. It's like he doesn't give a fuck, he isn't curious as town would be, hell he hints at scum-motivated reason why Mastin would claim miller, but doesn't legitimately pressure him.

Instead, he's nods the claim off as nothing and encourages everyone to answer lame-RQS questions, which I still don't know if they had a productive use.

Most people ignored it, unfortunately I have no idea whether it's because their scum who didn't want to take a stance at all or just went herp derp miller claim. Let's do nothing.

Btw, Hez is pretty obvious town. This shouldn't need explanation.

Yonzy's also pretty obvious scum. Town don't RVS vote for the sake of. Scum do because they want to blend in. It's even better because this beautiful interaction between Yonzy/Wick shows that Wick is literally asking questions for the sake of.

He hasn't posted much (only twice, if I recall)

. . . but they seem like they are just trying to stay out of the way of the game, while being there to

make HH appear active.

I know this hydra account is controlled by two experienced players, so it's weird that they haven't added anything to the discussion.

This is pretty lolarious.

Evidence: Hm, HH has 2 posts.
Conclusion: HOLY SHIT GUYS HH IS SCUM WHOS TRYING TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE HE'S HERE. HOLY FUCKING SHIT! LOOK AT HOW HE BLENDS IN WITH A MERE TWO POSTS, HE'S SO ACTIVE MAN!

Do I even have to explain how wrong this is?

Note, however, that this is Lat. I have far more to bring to the table than this. Just give me a day to celebrate my birthday, 'kay?

[YankCane151]

Was that link where lat said Hez was obvious town broken, or just not meant to be there?

[bobsnox]

This game is aptly named, I'll say that. Let's see who can talk the loudest.

Vifam - Your questions have obvious answers. Asking them is implying that the answers are not obvious and that I did not do something very obvious for very obvious reasons. In other words, you're trying too hard. A good question is, "Why did you vote for HH?" A bad question is, "Do you think he is actually scum?" That contains a lot of ridiculous implications, or it implies I'm being disingenuous, neither of which you have even the slightest reason to think right now.

Yank is making your arguments for you. That's basically buddying.

Yank - KKN was not a RVS Lobster was a RVS. HH is scummy for reasons I already listed. Your argument that Hez is a better lynch does not even consider my presupposition that all lynches like the one we'd have to have to lynch you or Hez are bad this early. We're not meeting on the same page so just drop it I guess. Also, your death would not confirm Hez's alignment if you're town. that's the kind of stupid outcome I'm trying to steer us away from. Quit making yourself a martyr when no one is asking you to be.

I figured this is the kind of reaction I would get for suggested a moderate course. Oh well.

Yank - who is your best alternative lynch to Hez?

Vifam - who do you least want to lynch at this stage?

[Rainbowdash]

Rainbow: What do you mean "we" have decided that my points are false? Absolutely no one besides the two I'm suspecting has called my points false, or crummy, or horrid.

You have one person who agrees with you. "We" outnumber you, and you need to do something productive in this game instead of continuing to harp on something that is causing this game to move around in circles. You see how nothing has been discussed for the last few pages except you? Its stuff like that which will LOSE us the game because it creates the perfect shroud for scum to just plod along in.

I am going to say this one more time, as calmly as possible, and if you choose to ignore it again. Im done responding to you.

You are probably town, but at this point you are nearly as big of a liability to the town as scum are, since you dont get it. The game does not revolve around you, but it resolves around us, as a collective, working together to figure out who stands up for friendship and who stands up for evil. When you bypass the us aspect of the game, you take away one of the biggest things that we can have going for us in discussion, which creates information. Asking for people to comment on a case is all well and good, and it should be done by everyone on a regular basis to keep the database full, however you are not perfect, even I am not perfect (shocking I know), so you need to be willing to listen to reason. You also need to be willing to change when its necessary to change, and at this juncture, you need to give up your current wagon and move on. Hez is not going to be lynched today, ponies have been posting and no one agrees with it. No matter how many times you post what is essentially (it is) the same thing, you will probably not change anyponies minds. You will more likely accomplish the opposite in ponies deciding to no longer take you seriously and instead ignore further opinions of yours, you can see it happening already. The worst part is as ive already said, you are probably town, and doing just about the worst job of using that status as possible. So please, for all of our sakes move on so this GAME can move forward. The longer you stay hung up on this the more you are going to creates long term damage to the town by stripping away the natural flow of the game.

I am dissapointed by the Lat catchup post. Does lots of nothing for me. Hopes shattered.

unvote
Vote Tarinsocelot

This could be a fun wagon to drum up.

She has done nothing this entire game. All she has done is make weak statements about most ponies who are the games hot topics. There is some suspicion of Yank, Wicked, Yonzy, HH and Hez apparently, but there is nothing attached to a read apart from one line, "maybe... but maybe not" statements about how something could be from town or from scum. There has been just as much of an attempt to get more out of Wicked for the vote on her then to push a case on anypony for the entire game. Coasting for scum ends here, KKN will work himself out over the next day or so.

[YankCane151]

This game is aptly named, I'll say that. Let's see who can talk the loudest.

Vifam - Your questions have obvious answers. Asking them is implying that the answers are not obvious and that I did not do something very obvious for very obvious reasons. In other words, you're trying too hard. A good question is, "Why did you vote for HH?" A bad question is, "Do you think he is actually scum?" That contains a lot of ridiculous implications, or it implies I'm being disingenuous, neither of which you have even the slightest reason to think right now.

Yank is making your arguments for you. That's basically buddying.

Yank - KKN was not a RVS Lobster was a RVS. HH is scummy for reasons I already listed. Your argument that Hez is a better lynch does not even consider my presupposition that all lynches like the one we'd have to have to lynch you or Hez are bad this early. We're not meeting on the same page so just drop it I guess. Also, your death would not confirm Hez's alignment if you're town. that's the kind of stupid outcome I'm trying to steer us away from. Quit making yourself a martyr when no one is asking you to be.

I figured this is the kind of reaction I would get for suggested a moderate course. Oh well.

Yank - who is your best alternative lynch to Hez?

Vifam - who do you least want to lynch at this stage?

What do you think of HH after lat's post on Wicked?

Yes, Of course I don't want to be a martyr. It's just aggravating that Hez is getting away with not answering me just because people have come to his rescue by trying to keeping me on track. I don't want to be on track, I want Hez(And Anon) to defend himself so I can move on. I'm just very convinced that if we were two townies arguing, there'd be actual effort from Hez to defend himself and refute my points, when there really isn't. I'll stop here before Rainbow and Anon come in again and tell me to stop repeating myself.

Anon, obviously, is my alternative. For roughly the same reasons.

[YankCane151]

Rainbow: That's all well and good, but it's not like they're the only ones I'm talking about. Heck, even in my posts to them, I've asked them about other things in the game (like the KKN wagon), which they also haven't answered. What do you want me to do now? Just sit back and lurk because no one will listen to me?

In my eyes, my case is productive. Yes, we are a town, and yes, I am going to continue to be involved with other things in the game besides Hez. But in no way will I Let Hez coast through the game either just because you say I should stop. If that's the case, then basically the reason you want me to stop (because I'm letting scum slip) would be the same thing that you're going to let Hez and Anon do, and I don't think they're confirmed town. Am I confirmed town too? Who else is confirmed town to you? Do you see how this could get out of hand?

You're making stuff up like "the flow of the game". Forget the flow of the game. Make Hez answer the questions. Make Anon defend himself. I don't want to drag it out, I just want answers(I think I've said this almost every post over the past 3-4 pages, yet they continue to make excuses). It's not my fault that they can't answer them.

I'm not moving my vote until someone convinces me with a better case, or Hez defends himself, simple. You have your vote, I have mine. I'm not going to stop partaking in the town activities.

If Hez is just simply not going to answer MY questions(Where's Vifam's case, by the way?), then he better at least contribute to the town in other ways.

--

I was hoping for a more indepth look at the specific reactions to the claim from HH. The points lat made regarding Wicked make my original gutread feel a little better.

Tarson/Simo/Avas all need way more content.

[Horrifying Hero]

Keep in mind, the Lat half of us is quite busy at the moment. The Mastin half of us has a lot more to bring to the table, including his belief for the whole scumteam (being, Wicked, Yonzy/Vifam, and Rainbowdash), but is preoccupied with his Birthday Party and it's a bad idea to multitask with such a large distraction.

[HezLucky]

Rainbow: That's all well and good, but it's not like they're the only ones I'm talking about. Heck, even in my posts to them, I've asked them about other things in the game (like the KKN wagon), which they also haven't answered. What do you want me to do now? Just sit back and lurk because no one will listen to me?

In my eyes, my case is productive. Yes, we are a town, and yes, I am going to continue to be involved with other things in the game besides Hez. But in no way will I Let Hez coast through the game either just because you say I should stop. If that's the case, then basically the reason you want me to stop (because I'm letting scum slip) would be the same thing that you're going to let Hez and Anon do, and I don't think they're confirmed town. Am I confirmed town too? Who else is confirmed town to you? Do you see how this could get out of hand?

You're making stuff up like "the flow of the game". Forget the flow of the game. Make Hez answer the questions. Make Anon defend himself. I don't want to drag it out, I just want answers(I think I've said this almost every post over the past 3-4 pages, yet they continue to make excuses). It's not my fault that they can't answer them.

I'm not moving my vote until someone convinces me with a better case, or Hez defends himself, simple. You have your vote, I have mine. I'm not going to stop partaking in the town activities.

If Hez is just simply not going to answer MY questions(Where's Vifam's case, by the way?), then he better at least contribute to the town in other ways.

--

I was hoping for a more indepth look at the specific reactions to the claim from HH. The points lat made regarding Wicked make my original gutread feel a little better.

Tarson/Simo/Avas all need way more content.

You're a troll. I'm not feeding you. And I don't suggest anyone else do either.

Also:

I'm not moving my vote until someone convinces me with a better case, or Hez defends himself, simple. You have your vote, I have mine. I'm not going to stop partaking in the town activities.

[Horrifying Hero]

Oh, and a free bit of advice:

This game had eight pages yesterday night. In less than 12 hours, it got to twelve. Neither of us has managed to read it all the way through, but from what we've observed, Mastin has concluded that it's mostly Hez-Yank fighting, and he further concluded it was painfully townVtown and will attempt to defuse their at-each-others'-throats approach later.

[YankCane151]

I'd welcome some defusing. I think the argument goes too far when the other guy posts images and calls me a troll for no reason, so I'm just going to leave it alone.

[Rainbowdash]

Rainbow: That's all well and good, but it's not like they're the only ones I'm talking about. Heck, even in my posts to them, I've asked them about other things in the game (like the KKN wagon), which they also haven't answered. What do you want me to do now? Just sit back and lurk because no one will listen to me?

I want you either to try something else or try a new way of going about old things, since the current plan of attack gets us nowhere.

In my eyes, my case is productive. Yes, we are a town, and yes, I am going to continue to be involved with other things in the game besides Hez. But in no way will I Let Hez coast through the game either just because you say I should stop. If that's the case, then basically the reason you want me to stop (because I'm letting scum slip) would be the same thing that you're going to let Hez and Anon do, and I don't think they're confirmed town. Am I confirmed town too? Who else is confirmed town to you? Do you see how this could get out of hand?

"Confirmed town" is stretching it quite a bit. At this point its more of town reads of varying strength. It usually takes quite a while for an essentially confirmed town read to come up in these games. What im not going to do though is let someone I think is town go down without a fight. Loyalty.

You're making stuff up like "the flow of the game". Forget the flow of the game. Make Hez answer the questions. Make Anon defend himself. I don't want to drag it out, I just want answers(I think I've said this almost every post over the past 3-4 pages, yet they continue to make excuses). It's not my fault that they can't answer them.

I guess one of my biggest problems with you continuing to call on CA to defend himself (can you stop calling him Anon? That is another player on the site) when I don't really get what you are pushing him on. Hez I do, and to a certain extent I agree with a few points, but some of his recent moves really are not inline with what scum would try to do in this situation I think. You have to get rid of the blinders to an extent though. Step back, reevaluate and then move forward again. Make a bullet point-esq case instead of taking one of his posts and putting superscripts into it, its a far better way to acheive the type of responses you want.

If Hez is just simply not going to answer MY questions(Where's Vifam's case, by the way?), then he better at least contribute to the town in other ways.

And im waiting for him to start on something else, especially with the way everything has gone recently.

Tarson/Simo/Avas all need way more content.

Do you want to join me in the glorious compramise wagon that is Tarin?

@Hez - You need to make a more productive move here as well instead of continually poking at Yank. We understand your opinion on him at this point, and its time to continue the game elsewhere. If he makes a nice concise case like I am calling for, respond in like, and we probably can put this whole thing behind us and go all town-alliance mode on someone. Besides, im the only one who gets to post images this game, its part of who I am, yay me.

[el simo]

First and foremost, Rainbow, I am not a pony.

Secondly, sorry I have been posting all that often, God honest truth is I've just been procastinating, and the more I left it the more work it was to catch up with.

Thirdly, holy shit lots of talking about absolutely nothing has been going on. This has probably been one of the most hardest (see: boring) reads I've had to do :s

Lastly, and most importantly, my goodness, learn to present a case with out huge giant walls of quotes. Be concise, be accurate, don't waffle for fucks sake and if an argument is going in circles there is no point continuing it. Hez and Yank are clearly getting no where and yes their entire argument has been incredibly antiproductive - infact it is the single reason why I have been procrastinating so much.

More often than not stuff like this gets a townie killed day one and then another townie autolynched day two for leading the wagon. I don't know what you and Hez are but neither of you are good day one lynches based purely on that.

Mastin has concluded that it's mostly Hez-Yank fighting, and he further concluded it was painfully townVtown

QFT

---

Now, my current thoughts on the game - nothing has happened of significance since about page 6, namely because of Hez and Yank, so most of the content I've got will come before then.

KKN's pressure vote was clearly a failed ploy. He received no reactions (because he placed a pressure vote but then proceeded to ignore it all together, thus defusing any possible pressuring aspect to it) and then buckles when pressured about it himself, voting avast because he questioned the validity of keeping a pressure vote on when it was clearly doing nothing. Hell his case on Yonzy was better, but he insists on avast. This comes off to me as scum failing in an attempt to try be a clever townie pressuring players and gauging results.

HH's confidence shown on page 6 doesn't equate to the case he provided just recently. Hell I gave no reaction to your claim either, but you give no mention of me, in fact you listed me as townie. So what the only difference between us is that he asked random questions, which clearly isn't a scum tell and happens (much to my dismay) in pretty much every game I've played in the last few years. In fact, when he does bring it up, he suggests what would seem like the towniest thing to do, and that is just to ignore your claim and continue playing as we'd normally do (which is what I did). + huge scummies for HH.

For the moment I'm happy with my vote on KKN, have no problem moving it to HH though.

[Horrifying Hero]

Then move it to us.

I'm pretty sure KKN is a mislynch at this stage.

Because I'm pretty confident Wicked-Yonzy/Vifam-Rainbow is our scumteam.


You can practically forget Lat's wall. Lat hasn't read the game. He is not fully caught up. I on the other hand have followed along, and this has just gotten stronger. Now that my party's over, it's time for me to give a true scumhunting effort.

[el simo]

But that would put you at an equal count.

Or were you suggesting that you wouldn't be a mislynch?

Interesting advice HH.

[el simo]

And to be frank your confidence means little so far, considering what it's brought to the table so far.

[el simo]

And to be frank your confidence means little, considering what it's brought to the table so far.

[YankCane151]

simo, What's your read on ViFam and bobsnox (whose latest posts were in between my arguments)?

[YankCane151]

Okay, at the request of Rainbowdash, I'm going to consolidate my Hez case one last time. If he posts again trying to be circular with the argument, I'm just going to ignore it, because I'm done with the clutter. I want him to respond so we can be done, I don't want him immaturely calling me a troll or something to that extent.

Hez is scum because:
-His case on me is wishy washy and also wrong. He originally voted for me for my RQS post, but unvoted me, only to re-vote me when CA made a case against me.
-I pointed out his contradictions, to which he responded that my case was "utter crap" "garbage" "waste of time". aka, an IIoA defense.
-I also point out the contradictions in CA's post, to which Hez immediately comes in and also calls that case the same words as before.
-Annoyed, I decide to change my approach. I post wiki links to all his fallacies. I start analyzing deeper into his posts, and come up with some valid points. Hez does not do anything but continue to call my case "crap" and call me "sure scum" because I'm voting him.(And he called me out on OMGUS, too.)
-I took this as him slipping. He then posts a link to Open 302 which he wishes to use to drive me off without answering the questions of me, then he unvotes me in an AtE to try and get me off. (Meanwhile he accused me of attacking him so he'd get off me)
-In Open 302, I was surprised to find that HezLucky's playstyle there(he was town) is different from this game. Alot more analysis, he actually defended himself, etc. I asked him where that attitude was this game. He responds by calling me a troll.
-All the while that he's had his vote off of me, he hasn't weighed in anywhere else on the game, including a post where I asked him his opinion on the KKN wagon. I fear he may end up trying to cruise trough the rest of the game because our argument was majority-deemed townVtown.

Those are the points I want Hez to respond too. Shouldn't be hard.

Regarding CA, His latest two ISO #12 and #13 give me a vibe similar to Hez, and he also has refused to answer my(or any, for that matter, as he has mentioned twice already) simple case against him(which is basically some contradictions which are weak scumtells at best, anyways). The IIoA shrug off of my post in #13 is what bothers me the most.

I don't want to start another argument, don't worry. I just want my concerns answered. CA, You can explain why my case is 'crap' because I'm not going to get into another argument with you this time.

That is all.

[YankCane151]

Couple more points(I know, I need to stop double posting so much)

Hez, who do you think is also scum if I am? (Who are my buddies like you promised to find?) Do you still suspect Tarson, who Wicked built a case against and then You called it a good point? (Before you voted me, and now your vote is off me) Who are your non-CA town reads? (These shouldn't be hard to answer because if you're town you should be thinking of these anyways, forget who's the one asking them)

CA, Am I still your top suspect? Who else looks guilty? Who are your non-Hez town reads?

[ConfidAnon]

rainbow, I'll join you on the tarsonisocelot wagon after reading iso. Also, she'll be due for a prod soon, so this should be getting her back and posting regularly.

UNVOTE: YankCane151
VOTE: tarsonisocelot

Keep in mind, the Lat half of us is quite busy at the moment. The Mastin half of us has a lot more to bring to the table, including his belief for the whole scumteam (being, Wicked, Yonzy/Vifam, and Rainbowdash), but is preoccupied with his Birthday Party and it's a bad idea to multitask with such a large distraction.

I look forward to this. Sorry, but the first part did nothing for me. I'm waiting to totally dismiss it until I see this other catchup post. (Also, I'm pretty sure if you replace "Birthday Party" with "alcohol" the statement would also be truthful. xD)

I was hoping for a more indepth look at the specific reactions to the claim from HH. The points lat made regarding Wicked make my original gutread feel a little better.

What do you mean by "feel a little better?" Does that mean easing your suspicions, or confirming them?

CA, Am I still your top suspect? Who else looks guilty? Who are your non-Hez town reads?

You're still my top scumread, however, I'm branching off in other areas. There are people who need to be investigated - players like tarsonisocelot, for instance. Right now with tarson, I'm unclear on a couple of things (I'll explain why later, so as not to give her an idea of what would make me think she is town), and I want to see how she acts. I'm hesitant to label someone as a town read - when I do so, I tend to always think that and not question those who give me one. This has bit me in the ass a lot offsite. Right now, rainbow is fairly townie, maybe for his/her treatment of your argument. Rainbow seems to care about shit getting done in this game - however, given other alignment flips, that view could change really easily.

[Kid Know Nothing]

Checking in, have to go to work. Will read up and post around 11 est. Sorry for the delay.

[avasthearties]

Ah Christ that was a pain in the ass to read, and frankly for little value. There really wasn't much actual content to be garnered from those several back and forth pages, except for a few interesting statements like:

bobsnox: Look again. Determine again. Hez is scum, let's not look elsewhere.

That big show managed to achieve that, as it is pretty hard to look anywhere but there with several pages of arguing. Now discussion has been moved off of KKN and onto that firestorm. I don't like the result of this attention whoring, which leads me to

FOS: Yank

for now. I just find it suspicious that when the bandwagon on KKN started growing suddenly an arguement forms that overshadows everything else. Obviously Hez is responsible for that as well, but the reason it's Yank I am FOSing is simply that unusual statement above. If anything, there is the possibility that they could both be scum bussing eachother to get the heat off of KKN.

I was finding Bobsnox scummy in the beginning, but I'm not sure what to think of him now. Some of the stuff he has said recently has been reasonable, and lead me to have kind of a null read on him right now. So yeah. I don't really get the calls against HH though. I don't really see anything scummy coming from them, and the gambit in the beginning just strikes me as a little too... conspicuous, I guess, to be done by scum.

I guess Yonzy is out now and in comes Vifam, who I think is making up for the dumbassery of his predecessor. Good reasonable defense provided for Yonzy's cluelessness. Time will tell how useful Vifam is, but I'd say currently he's about a 1 on a scale of -5 to 5 (with -5 being confirmed scum and 5 being confirmed town).

[YankCane151]

CA: Confirming them, or at least, making me feel a little more sure of the gutread.

I'll be interested to hear Wicked's thoughts on HH and the other developments when he comes back from V/LA

Avas: What did you think of my case? and Why isn't Hez getting an FoS too? Basically your whole reasoning for doing so to me is that I distracted the town for 4-5 pages, which Hez was also responsible for. Hez also called me confirmed scum too, if you recall.

[YankCane151]

Whoa whoa whoa. Avas: Why didn't you attack bobsnox for his votes #1 and #13 ISO, where he didn't give a reason for either, but you attacked KKN for the same thing when he did it once?

[Rainbowdash]

First and foremost, Rainbow, I am not a pony.

Will get caught up later everypony, Sunday tends to be my errand/chore day.