TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win

[ZeL1nK]

How do I go about getting scum lynched D1? Because it seems nobody is interested in doing that.

[vollkan]

How do I go about getting scum lynched D1?

By voting Zinger

[jasonT1981]

PeregrineV has been prodded (1)

[Rodion]

and tracker is very confirmable as the days go on (unlike what Zinger claimed).

That is not true. Jailkeeper can be easily confirmed (confirmable is not a word).

How could you easily confirm JK? A roleblocker could claim to be a JK and manage just fine, especially if they're scum.

Just have Zinger and Zelink target the same person and see whether the targeted person dies or not (if they both become neighbours, it gets easier, as there are less opportunities for scum to interfere with the test).

The problem is this only allows you to conclude he is a JK, not necessarily a town JK. Same can be said about Junpei's possible tracker confirmation.

For ISO purposes - DAMNIT IT WAS LATE AT NIGHT

Was doing so well as well...

I prefer izak, but he's V/LA, and eh.

Worst. Vote. Ever.

Seriously, voting someone for being V/LA? What the fuck.

I feel other people have adequately addressed this.

~ Hoppster

I'm not going to hold this against anyone that adressed this because I think there is a mass misunderstanding and I highly doubt everyone that got this wrong has an anti-town agenda.

Back when Zinger posted what is inside this quote pyramid, I also had the idea that he misunderstood it. After his latest responses I got the feeling that he simply explained his idea poorly. Let's see.

1 - Pinky wanted to vote on Izak, but Izak was V/LA. That made Pinky's vote default to his 2nd most suspicious, Zinger.
2 - What Zinger tried (I think) to say is that he was

also

V/LA (Zinger V/LA in #946, Pinky vote in #964), so Pinky's vote had to default to his 3rd most suspicious (or go back to Izak - or wait without casting a vote until the V/LAs got back).

Pine - 1st
Marco - 2nd
Meran - Tied for 2nds
magna -4th... or 5th... well last for the moment.
goomba - 3rd
Nero - Tied for 1st

How the F... is this hard to see

Obviously, formatting it weirdly doesn't make it scummy, but since the particular way of formatting you used has proven to cause distractions, I request you to be a little more organized when/if you do it again, if only to avoid fruitless discussions in the future.

In case you're willing to take this advice, if I were to agree with your list, this is how I would have presented it:

T-1st - Pine
T-1st - Nero
T-3rd - Marco
T-3rd - Meran
5th - Goomba
6th - Magna

Rodion > Leaning Town, but for the most part haven't been following him much. What I have noted in my observations is that he's intelligent and mostly neutral, willing to give both sides a fair hearing, which can only really be a benefit. Wouldn't mind seeing his list of scum-reads personally.

I must confess I'm not used to the "professional" mafia playing style of this site. I've seen several people give their reads on everyone else and it's only D1. I'll try to adapt and post one soon.

[David Xanatos]

Rodion > I don't mean a full list if you don't have one, just those you suspect with a little summary of why really, just to give an insight.

I just posted my entire set of notes >.>

[jasonT1981]

Marco has requested replacement. easjo682 failed to pick up prod and will be replaced, I am also looking a replacement for Crappy. So yea, 3 replacements needed.

I will be talking to back up mods and Setup reviewers on how to handle this situation.

[Pinky and the Brain]

@junpei: your reasoning for saying im scummy is : 'for being incoferant'. i triple explained the last point that you didnt get, and thats the only point that you didnt understand. how is that incoherant lol. sounds like your exaggerating badly
@junpei: part of your reasoning for chkballing being town is because he is an 'open hydra'. wut?
@junpei: for volkan, that reasoning is flawed. the last game i played with him he used the system and he was scum.

david and junpei looks suspicious posting walls one after the other.
@david: i have solid reads
@david: im not tunneling heavily on chkballing. i also have other suspects.

oversoul
leon
easjo
etc

Why are you suspicious of easjo when she is known for having a nearly ZazieR-level flake rate?

-diddin

[Rodion]

Instead of taking notes when I read posts, I made this list right now with the feelings I had on players. When I didn't have much I ISOed them.


1) Meransiel - unwilling to help in the beginning, fixed his behaviour lately. Scumpoints for the interaction with the JK, but mainly on hold because he went V/LA before we could finish our convo.

2) vezokpiraka - had the idea of a mass nameclaim back in the confirmation stage and got RVS BWed (considering his mass nameclaim request I thought the BW was serious, not RVS). Hasn't talked much, but mentioned he usualy buddies the best player in the game.

Question for vezokpiraka:

have you considered the possibility of the best player being randomly assigned to the mafia? How do you deal with that?

3) MagnaofIllusion - his agressive style can help find scum, but I'm afraid he's blinded by his bloodlust and will throw accusations without good reasons (for instance, check his accusation that David Xanatos fabricated timestamps/posts). Spot on at times, but seems to me like a "diamond in the rough".

4) PeregrineV - did not say much. Some pertinent questions, a small mistake when checking the VC. Would like to see him participate more.

5) Pappums Leather Jacket - hydra. Disclosed his heads. I like his posts, but I get the feeling most of them are "safeposts". Would really like to see him participate more.

6) Zinger2099 - started posting without contributing, switched to claiming 3rd-party JK and then town JK (I took his doc claim as a joke). Really scummy to me, but I'm weary of other people exaggerating his scuminess (Junpei/Meran), which leads me to consider the possibility that it was, after all, just a poor gambit (and that the people who exaggerated deserve a deeper look).

7) chkballin - hydra. Discloses his heads. I really like how he caught 3isF lying about the doublevote. Though people may not go for LAL, it's always good to see someone taking the effort to check facts. Might be extremely useful in the future. Would like to see more. He has promised a wall.

8) marco1610 - needs to talk more.

9)

Pvt Slate

crappy - needs to talk more.

10) Nero Cain - needs to talk more. I liked his pressure on Silver.

11) David Xanatos - I don't feel the scuminess. He did rolefish when asking for the 2 neighbourizers identities, but it seemed a legit request after MoI had stated it was unlikely that both were town (+ MoI said he usually dies N1, so why not release information before it's too late?). He adjusted his request to the mechanics each neighbourizer claimed and I'd like MoI to adress that at the very least.


12) easjo682 - needs to talk more.

13)

jilynne1991

vollkan - I generally like how he thinks. Most posts are accurate. I have an objection in the way he quickly backed out of his

ultimatum

on Meransiel. The lesson I learned is that his

ultimata

carry no weight and he will never be able in future games to pressure anyone who read this game through an

ultimatum

. Even if he thought Meran was town, I think he had to keep his word in order to establish more credit to his

ultimata

in his future games. I'm not sure if that falls under the policy lynch definition, but I feel his response to Meran's refusal to cooperate was wrong.

More later today (or tomorrow).

[ThreeIsFrench]

Meransiel: Obvious town, he active lurked; yeah, but thats how he plays. Hes stepped it up recently.
MoI: Has been consistently pro-town, active scumhunter... kind of obvious really
Pappums Leather Jacket:
Pinky and the brain
David XANATOS: I really don't see the fight with him; he seriously is trying to be scumhunting well; and to me it seems like scums on his wagon

eh forgot to post this post; cant remember if i got everything; but yea

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

I prefer izak, but he's V/LA, and eh.

Worst. Vote. Ever.

Seriously, voting someone for being V/LA? What the fuck.

Seriously, if you can't see that Pinky was saying he wanted to vote Izak but wouldn't because Izak is V/LA, you are literally a fucking moron. I'd actually wonder if you'd suffered a serious head injury, because it is so fucking obvious.

[chkballin]

Frankly, at that point, there was nothing I found particularly scummy about Vifam at that point. Not everyone instantly jumps into the game, and frankly I've always been one to take a slightly laid back role until I get a feel for the other players, you can check up my last game on that if you like. (Yes, I did claim too early then, but it worked out in the end.)

I didn't mention a word about Vifam, he's not the only person that was under the proverbial 'microscope'... so your response here is more or less void. The fact that you prefer a "laid back role" until town starts to light a fire under your ass isn't much of a defense either, much less a very town-motivated one.

There was a difference of

FOUR

minutes. That was simply me taking an RVS prod at Chev, seeing ThreeisFrench and thinking "Aha, the French!". Hardly "RVS vote hop onto ANOTHER RVS vote" given the timescale.

Wow... so you

agree

that they're both random votes yet, by some force, you

disagree

that it's an RVS vote hopping onto another RVS vote? The fact that it's four minutes apart proves that it's two RVS votes back-to-back. You're bass ackwards here.

For a moment there you had me thinking I'd made a mistake, and the posts were by two seperate people.. can you please be consistent in the way you refer to a player? When I read that the first time I honestly thought I'd addressed MoI about a point someone else had made.

Semantics. I'll type how I want, it's not my fault if you have a problem keeping up. You obviously fixed your own problem; what was the point in pointing this out? Have you ever heard of IIoA? This is a small example of it right here.

Regardless, to respond, at that point I was under the impression he was joking. It seemed to me at that point like a pure RVS wagon, and I didn't feel the need to move my vote to a wagon that I had no true basis in joining. ThreeisFrench had only me on him at that point, with what I felt was an obvious joke vote, whereas the Vezok wagon could catch wind without any real response from Vezok, and I'd rather not lynch without at least a cursory defense.

You're completely off base here. Whether you thought the Vezok wagon was warranted or not, you're play here is still "hurr hurr I'm hilarious" instead of doing some actual scum-hunting until the town, again, lights that fire under your ass. This is not town-motivated play; therefore, I still don't think you're town.

Vifam refused to give any defense beyond "I agreed with the reads", while accusing others of sheeping, and trying everything to make people "look over there", so to speak.

It's funny how you're doing the exact same thing here.

Frankly, I didn't believe that he was using that as a defense, so I opted to give him/her time to post an actual defense. I believe 15 hours is more than sufficient time for someone who isn't V/LA or under an RL pressure to respond, so by that point I decided to put my vote down and assess the situation based on any defense forthcoming, as the current one just didn't hold water.

And now you're just repeating yourself as if it's reiterating some sort of point. It isn't. You're simply justifying my original point in saying that you were stalling so it didn't look so much like a bandwagon vote as much as it is. What are your current thoughts on Vezok? I don't want a re-quoted read, I want what you feel at this exact moment. Go.

The third link you claim I'm trying to "justify" myself is after Admiral said essentially that I should have voted for Vifam. That was my simply pointing out I already had done.

The last two sentences were chopped because, again, you like to talk and talk until the original point is diluted. Thanks. My point isn't about Admiral, it's about the fact that you're trying to justify your vote on Vezok (which you're still doing here, you're just using different words - neat scum tactic) and trying to look as town as possible when doing it. It's not convincing and, most of all,

still

not town-motivated.

Does anyone think David is acting in a town-motivated manner here?

And the fourth link you provided there, what's more town friendly? Three words, or giving the explanation in a nutshell before I went out the door?

If I'd simply said "I've answered this", I rather suspect you'd have used that as an excuse to claim I'm "lurking Scum" or similar.

You know, I can show you the photos from my weekend break if you like, before you claim the V/LA was a "Scum Gambit" or something. :3

Wow... you're quite the paranoid player. If you had said "I've answered this" like I was saying, I think my original point would be pretty moot wouldn't it?

Your obvious paranoia doesn't sit well with me at all. I understand it may seem as if you're "damned if you do, damned if you don't" but that's not the case here, nor have I attacked every single thing you've done. I'm only placing a target on the things I find suspect. This over-defensive behavior just makes me think that I'm right.

That was me being sarcastic about the fact you claimed to be "working on a wall" to "expect soon". You'll note I didn't mention your vote at all, not quite sure how that qualifies as "defensive".

And herein lies my main issue with your starting play. Now you get the magical excuse of "oh, I was joking" every single time you're questioned or under fire. That's an excuse, your post in question seemed very serious and, therefore, defensive as hell.

There's a Hydra that's completely unclaimed. I'm new to the "Hydra" concept, but as I stated to the mod, it seems to go against some of the game theory of "tells" et cetera. It also suggests to me that at least one of the two has something rather negative to hide, which arouses my interest to a degree.

AGAIN you're missing the point entirely. The post in question is moot in and of itself because there was only one unclaimed hydra. Every other hydra was very open and honest, which says to me that you were very much so skimming and again attempting to appear town-motivated when in reality you're just keeping your head above water so players see you as trying to contribute when that couldn't be further from the truth.

Now.. with that post addressed, I plod onwards. I apologise that I am a little behind, but as I said, working onwards as I can.

lawl - this now applies to me. Didn't want to make this a wall people skim so I'll be giving time between posts for clarity as well as time for response.

[Junpei]

@junpei: your reasoning for saying im scummy is : 'for being incoferant'. i triple explained the last point that you didnt get, and thats the only point that you didnt understand. how is that incoherant lol. sounds like your exaggerating badly
@junpei: part of your reasoning for chkballing being town is because he is an 'open hydra'. wut?
@junpei: for volkan, that reasoning is flawed. the last game i played with him he used the system and he was scum.

david and junpei looks suspicious posting walls one after the other.
@david: i have solid reads
@david: im not tunneling heavily on chkballing. i also have other suspects.

oversoul
leon
easjo
etc

Being an open hydra shows openness with town. It doesn't prove he's town but it's early day 1 small reads and that is something that is towny.

Yeah I realize now that that was a stupid point, I still think though that it will be a lot easier to catch scum-Volkan with such an opening into his mind.

Alright Andrew, lets go through your terrible ISO.

Spoiler: Andrew ISO

reading through, easjo682 first post is very sus. if you look at it. you will know it is wrong.

also, oversoul is not as clueless as she pretends to be. that dude was obviously joking

Easjo's first post said he was against character claims. Is that what you meant? That's scummy? Explain.

chkballing classic scum, posting huge wall of reads. i looked at some of them 'andrew lurking scum'. thats your reason?

early claim is null

magna post 308 town tell
leon post 307 scum tell. no unvote?

Scum = huge wall of reads? Just because you're lazy and refuse to even read walls enough to grasp the understandings of them doesn't mean that only scum use them. But I guess now me and David X are scum in your opinion too right? I noticed you haven't mentioned anything on it, if you think that's classic scum then shouldn't you be voting one of us? How about when Vifam posted his reads? You didn't vote him for that.

im pretty sure zingers not telling us the full thing.
i.e. theres 24 people in this game, and normally 1 lynch per day and 2 night kills at night.
this makes ur winning chance like 1%.
bS

Yeah andrew... we said this a while back...

i think zinger noted that many of us had said that with his claim, the chances of him winning are close to zero.
therefore, he claimed town JK.
dont think we should lynch him.

unvote vote chkballing

did you see hes last post?

What the fuck does this mean? He noticed that we said his win con was near impossible. So he claimed town JK. So we shouldn't lynch him? That's your reasoning?

1) he basically said what i said before and many others have said. then he sits on the fence
2) cos zinger change claim to town pr

1) You do that too

2) That's another common argument, proves my first point.

you see, at L1 people claim.
if we are not lynching people who claim a pr, then who are we gonna lynch
scum can claim pr as well you know

This post. You say that we should lynch a town PR at some point, yet earlier you said that your reasoning for not voting Zinger was that he claimed a town PR.

@ThreeisFrench You posted reads on 3 people, yet you listed 5 names. Regardless there are 26 people here other than you. That post isn't enough.

[Junpei]

1 - His original JK claim has the possibility of allowing him to live a lot. Why?
a) Town could not kill him and gamble that the reward of permanently blocking a scum player would outweigh the risk of permanently blocking a town PR (lynch avoided).
b) Mafia could not kill him and gamble that the reward of permanently blocking a town PR would outweigh the risk of permanently blocking a scumbuddy (NK avoided).

I said it twice and I'll say it a third time. I don't think his play was good if he really is a town JK, but you

CANNOT

say his strategy makes

ZERO SENSE.

3 - You're wrong. Period. That is the definition of a double-edged sword, not necessarily "pro", not necessarily "anti".

4 - Wrong again. He was being accused.

#753 - Junpei basically says he's anti-town because he is a roleblocker
#783 - Meransiel said his JK claim is opportunistically scummy

You think he is not entitled to a defense?

5 - I think I understood the claim better than you did.

6 - You are absolutely correct here. Obviously, that does not mean I'm wrong, since your "6" does not go against anything I said.

7 - Oh my god. You suck.

1) That is the dumbest thing ever. This isn't poker, we don't take shitty gambles and say "fuck it" and let him live. The safe thing to do is to kill him, and that is what we were going to do, and that's what pretty much any town would do day 1.

4) They were discussing whether or not there's a good chance for a mafia jailkeeper or not. Someone may have said "you could be mafia JK" and then he was trying to somehow prove that wrong, but there's no way he could. It's just a way to derail the thread and make it seem like defending. But he may have been genuinely responding to Meran.

6) The argument was on the topic of mafia Jailkeepers

[vezokpiraka]

@Rodion: If the best player is scum that means they won't NK me because I buddied to them.

[Nero Cain]

Someone who really hasn't put in much info but goes "why is this scummy player not being wagoned more" just rides me the wrong way, especially since he's lax on his reasoning.

I feel I've done a sufficient job of explaining why your slot is scummy and I think that its fairly easy for others to see that.

Though if anyone has questions; just ask me.

Zel1nk ISO 50/51 don't give me good vibes.

[PeregrineV]

PeregrineV has been prodded (1)

Sorry guys still here. And still not going to vote for one of the three PR claims today. But also need to catch-up since the last post.

[David Xanatos]

I didn't mention a word about Vifam, he's not the only person that was under the proverbial 'microscope'... so your response here is more or less void. The fact that you prefer a "laid back role" until town starts to light a fire under your ass isn't much of a defense either, much less a very town-motivated one.

Apologies, Vezok. Not Vifam, got them mixed up there. Regardless, one of the posts you linked was a direct response to Killerjester asking why I wasn't on an RVS wagon after being "specifically invited". I find it rather ironic actually that you claim it's bad that I changed my RVS vote, and yet at the same time, make it out as though my declining to move my RVS vote onto a stronger RVS wagon is somehow scummy too.

In addition, how exactly can you "scumhunt" in RVS? The very definition of RVS is poking people to see the responses.. as you've seen with my exchanges RE: MoI, when I get personally involved in something, I tend to focus on it rather heavily.. therefore, my sitting back and observing is my way of trying to catch things that I would otherwise miss.

Wow... so you

agree

that they're both random votes yet, by some force, you

disagree

that it's an RVS vote hopping onto another RVS vote? The fact that it's four minutes apart proves that it's two RVS votes back-to-back. You're bass ackwards here.

The way you phrase it is as though I'm hopping from an RVS vote onto a wagon for no reason, frankly I read that as trying to imply I'm sheeping, when little could be further from the truth.

Semantics. I'll type how I want, it's not my fault if you have a problem keeping up. You obviously fixed your own problem; what was the point in pointing this out? Have you ever heard of IIoA? This is a small example of it right here.

Because not everyone's a native english speaker, and frankly I wanted to point it out as a minor aside on the offchance that you were non-native, as it seemed to be to imply, as I said, that I was hopping onto an RVS wagon. In addition, the very fact it was four minutes shows that there was no intent behind either vote than simply poking them.

You're completely off base here. Whether you thought the Vezok wagon was warranted or not, you're play here is still "hurr hurr I'm hilarious" instead of doing some actual scum-hunting until the town, again, lights that fire under your ass. This is not town-motivated play; therefore, I still don't think you're town.

Are you trying to imply that simply hopping onto an RVS wagon is "scumhunting"? That's not scumhunting, that's sheeping. Blatant sheeping at that. You appear to essentially be saying that it's better to follow the pack without reason than observe the field.

It's funny how you're doing the exact same thing here.

Care to define how exactly? I'm defending points as they're raised, Vifam simply tried to misdirect.

And now you're just repeating yourself as if it's reiterating some sort of point. It isn't. You're simply justifying my original point in saying that you were stalling so it didn't look so much like a bandwagon vote as much as it is. What are your current thoughts on Vezok? I don't want a re-quoted read, I want what you feel at this exact moment. Go.

You're saying that jumping on a wagon without giving someone time to make their case is "stalling"? I call bullshit on that, quite frankly. When it became apparent that Vifam wasn't going to even attempt to defend herself, I voted, when Junpei took over and claimed, I backed off, believing his claim. Since then, Junpei in my eyes has been a massive asset to the town, offsetting all residual doubt I had on the slot based on Vifam. If Vifam had bothered defending herself, my vote may never have been on her in the first place.

And my thoughts on Vezok? I already gave some of my thoughts on him/her barely a couple of pages ago. If you want it in a nutshell, scummy as hell. Openly admits to buddying, doesn't care if s/he's buddying to scum in doing so, makes short, low to no content posts and tunnels rather heavily, also appears to be making rather harsh defenses for Meran, but I'm not sure what to make of that.

The last two sentences were chopped because, again, you like to talk and talk until the original point is diluted. Thanks. My point isn't about Admiral, it's about the fact that you're trying to justify your vote on Vezok (which you're still doing here, you're just using different words - neat scum tactic) and trying to look as town as possible when doing it. It's not convincing and, most of all,

still

not town-motivated.

How exactly is defending points on which I'm challenged "not town-motivated"? Is your idea of Town some strange opinionless person, willing to happily follow whatever opinion you happen to have at the time? Are you expecting my reasons for voting to change on a minute by minute basis? That's not logic, that's borderline multiple-personalities. I felt the case was strong enough to warrant a vote, so I voted. If you'd rather I told you to fuck off by way of response, I'd be happy to, but frankly I feel sharing motivations and mindsets helps Town to understand one another and clears up and miscommunication.

Does anyone think David is acting in a town-motivated manner here?

Wow... you're quite the paranoid player. If you had said "I've answered this" like I was saying, I think my original point would be pretty moot wouldn't it?

Your obvious paranoia doesn't sit well with me at all. I understand it may seem as if you're "damned if you do, damned if you don't" but that's not the case here, nor have I attacked every single thing you've done. I'm only placing a target on the things I find suspect. This over-defensive behavior just makes me think that I'm right.

Firstly, it's only paranoia if they're not actually after you, and the extent of tunneling shown by you rather proves that you are. Secondly, short, snapping responses don't help Town. It engenders feelings of hostility and doesn't allow any insight into the reasons behind something. Thirdly, over-defensive? I'm responding to points as they're raised. If I reiterate points, it's because someone's asking something I've answered already, and I could either link them to the post, which I believe they'd ignore anyway, or I can spell it out for them. Which would you prefer, number-soup or a few extra lines to read?

And herein lies my main issue with your starting play. Now you get the magical excuse of "oh, I was joking" every single time you're questioned or under fire. That's an excuse, your post in question seemed very serious and, therefore, defensive as hell.

You'll find that sarcasm =/= defensive. It was me poking fun at the fact that you promised a wall, and then went completely silent. It took you two days to post the damn thing. Do you know how dodgy it looks for someone to proclaim they're working on a wall, a day later apologise that it's late, promise it within 12 hours, miss /that/ deadline, and only post it on the third day? Frankly, to me that looks like someone trying to

look

busy.

Oh, and to address the "defensive" accusation further, would you rather we go down the rhetoric route, essentially a "who can scream loudest" contest? Because in my experience, that's what happens when you don't address points. I'd rather not lower the topic to that level.

AGAIN you're missing the point entirely. The post in question is moot in and of itself because there was only one unclaimed hydra. Every other hydra was very open and honest, which says to me that you were very much so skimming and again attempting to appear town-motivated when in reality you're just keeping your head above water so players see you as trying to contribute when that couldn't be further from the truth.

How exactly does this make the post "moot"? I was asking who the heads were of the hydras, because;

1: It clears up confusion regarding the Hydra when someone posts from a main account by mistake. (example, I have no idea who Hoppster was until I trawled through the signup topic again.)
2: It allows for the heads to be easily distinguished from each other, allowing meta to be built on them, or experience from previous games compared to the way they're acting now. (And to counter the point that "mafia wasn't designed for meta", no, it wasn't, it was designed as a face-to-face game, which has seperate signs, for the trained eye. Meta is, I feel, the online equivalent.)
3: The very fact there's an unclaimed hydra implies that one or both has something to hide, that could be as simple as prior meta (which to be frank, I'd consider an unfair advantage, given that it's essentially turning up to a meeting with a mask on to hide your identity, same goes with alts.), or it could be something more sinister. (Such as a player blacklisted by majority of the other players, returning to cause trouble.)

[David Xanatos]

Buggered that right up. Fixed. I hope.

I didn't mention a word about Vifam, he's not the only person that was under the proverbial 'microscope'... so your response here is more or less void. The fact that you prefer a "laid back role" until town starts to light a fire under your ass isn't much of a defense either, much less a very town-motivated one.

Apologies, Vezok. Not Vifam, got them mixed up there. Regardless, one of the posts you linked was a direct response to Killerjester asking why I wasn't on an RVS wagon after being "specifically invited". I find it rather ironic actually that you claim it's bad that I changed my RVS vote, and yet at the same time, make it out as though my declining to move my RVS vote onto a stronger RVS wagon is somehow scummy too.

In addition, how exactly can you "scumhunt" in RVS? The very definition of RVS is poking people to see the responses.. as you've seen with my exchanges RE: MoI, when I get personally involved in something, I tend to focus on it rather heavily.. therefore, my sitting back and observing is my way of trying to catch things that I would otherwise miss.

Wow... so you

agree

that they're both random votes yet, by some force, you

disagree

that it's an RVS vote hopping onto another RVS vote? The fact that it's four minutes apart proves that it's two RVS votes back-to-back. You're bass ackwards here.

The way you phrase it is as though I'm hopping from an RVS vote onto a wagon for no reason, frankly I read that as trying to imply I'm sheeping, when little could be further from the truth.

Semantics. I'll type how I want, it's not my fault if you have a problem keeping up. You obviously fixed your own problem; what was the point in pointing this out? Have you ever heard of IIoA? This is a small example of it right here.

Because not everyone's a native english speaker, and frankly I wanted to point it out as a minor aside on the offchance that you were non-native, as it seemed to be to imply, as I said, that I was hopping onto an RVS wagon. In addition, the very fact it was four minutes shows that there was no intent behind either vote than simply poking them.

You're completely off base here. Whether you thought the Vezok wagon was warranted or not, you're play here is still "hurr hurr I'm hilarious" instead of doing some actual scum-hunting until the town, again, lights that fire under your ass. This is not town-motivated play; therefore, I still don't think you're town.

Are you trying to imply that simply hopping onto an RVS wagon is "scumhunting"? That's not scumhunting, that's sheeping. Blatant sheeping at that. You appear to essentially be saying that it's better to follow the pack without reason than observe the field.

It's funny how you're doing the exact same thing here.

Care to define how exactly? I'm defending points as they're raised, Vifam simply tried to misdirect.

And now you're just repeating yourself as if it's reiterating some sort of point. It isn't. You're simply justifying my original point in saying that you were stalling so it didn't look so much like a bandwagon vote as much as it is. What are your current thoughts on Vezok? I don't want a re-quoted read, I want what you feel at this exact moment. Go.

You're saying that jumping on a wagon without giving someone time to make their case is "stalling"? I call bullshit on that, quite frankly. When it became apparent that Vifam wasn't going to even attempt to defend herself, I voted, when Junpei took over and claimed, I backed off, believing his claim. Since then, Junpei in my eyes has been a massive asset to the town, offsetting all residual doubt I had on the slot based on Vifam. If Vifam had bothered defending herself, my vote may never have been on her in the first place.

And my thoughts on Vezok? I already gave some of my thoughts on him/her barely a couple of pages ago. If you want it in a nutshell, scummy as hell. Openly admits to buddying, doesn't care if s/he's buddying to scum in doing so, makes short, low to no content posts and tunnels rather heavily, also appears to be making rather harsh defenses for Meran, but I'm not sure what to make of that.

The last two sentences were chopped because, again, you like to talk and talk until the original point is diluted. Thanks. My point isn't about Admiral, it's about the fact that you're trying to justify your vote on Vezok (which you're still doing here, you're just using different words - neat scum tactic) and trying to look as town as possible when doing it. It's not convincing and, most of all,

still

not town-motivated.

How exactly is defending points on which I'm challenged "not town-motivated"? Is your idea of Town some strange opinionless person, willing to happily follow whatever opinion you happen to have at the time? Are you expecting my reasons for voting to change on a minute by minute basis? That's not logic, that's borderline multiple-personalities. I felt the case was strong enough to warrant a vote, so I voted. If you'd rather I told you to fuck off by way of response, I'd be happy to, but frankly I feel sharing motivations and mindsets helps Town to understand one another and clears up and miscommunication.

Does anyone think David is acting in a town-motivated manner here?

I'm not sure why exactly you're appealing to the peanut gallery here.. but whatever.

Wow... you're quite the paranoid player. If you had said "I've answered this" like I was saying, I think my original point would be pretty moot wouldn't it?

Your obvious paranoia doesn't sit well with me at all. I understand it may seem as if you're "damned if you do, damned if you don't" but that's not the case here, nor have I attacked every single thing you've done. I'm only placing a target on the things I find suspect. This over-defensive behavior just makes me think that I'm right.

Firstly, it's only paranoia if they're not actually after you, and the extent of tunneling shown by you rather proves that you are. Secondly, short, snapping responses don't help Town. It engenders feelings of hostility and doesn't allow any insight into the reasons behind something. Thirdly, over-defensive? I'm responding to points as they're raised. If I reiterate points, it's because someone's asking something I've answered already, and I could either link them to the post, which I believe they'd ignore anyway, or I can spell it out for them. Which would you prefer, number-soup or a few extra lines to read?

And herein lies my main issue with your starting play. Now you get the magical excuse of "oh, I was joking" every single time you're questioned or under fire. That's an excuse, your post in question seemed very serious and, therefore, defensive as hell.

You'll find that sarcasm =/= defensive. It was me poking fun at the fact that you promised a wall, and then went completely silent. It took you two days to post the damn thing. Do you know how dodgy it looks for someone to proclaim they're working on a wall, a day later apologise that it's late, promise it within 12 hours, miss /that/ deadline, and only post it on the third day? Frankly, to me that looks like someone trying to

look

busy.

Oh, and to address the "defensive" accusation further, would you rather we go down the rhetoric route, essentially a "who can scream loudest" contest? Because in my experience, that's what happens when you don't address points. I'd rather not lower the topic to that level.

AGAIN you're missing the point entirely. The post in question is moot in and of itself because there was only one unclaimed hydra. Every other hydra was very open and honest, which says to me that you were very much so skimming and again attempting to appear town-motivated when in reality you're just keeping your head above water so players see you as trying to contribute when that couldn't be further from the truth.

How exactly does this make the post "moot"? I was asking who the heads were of the hydras, because;

1: It clears up confusion regarding the Hydra when someone posts from a main account by mistake. (example, I have no idea who Hoppster was until I trawled through the signup topic again.)
2: It allows for the heads to be easily distinguished from each other, allowing meta to be built on them, or experience from previous games compared to the way they're acting now. (And to counter the point that "mafia wasn't designed for meta", no, it wasn't, it was designed as a face-to-face game, which has seperate signs, for the trained eye. Meta is, I feel, the online equivalent.)
3: The very fact there's an unclaimed hydra implies that one or both has something to hide, that could be as simple as prior meta (which to be frank, I'd consider an unfair advantage, given that it's essentially turning up to a meeting with a mask on to hide your identity, same goes with alts.), or it could be something more sinister. (Such as a player blacklisted by majority of the other players, returning to cause trouble.)

[Zinger2099]

How do I go about getting scum lynched D1? Because it seems nobody is interested in doing that.

Don't worry man. On the plus side, everyone has commented on me tons throughout Day 1. My lynch will hopefully provide the town with enough clues to who is scum in the following days.

I said it early on: the most important thing about Day 1 is to keep everyone talking, so that you can later look back for clues as to their alignment. Whatever else I did, at least I did that by the ton.

[ThreeIsFrench]

:@ i just typed out a huge wall and clicked the x. Fuck this sucks.

K junpei, i knew i was forgetting something ill fix that post up for ya also will try to post most of my reads

Junpei: Definite town, hes being going after everyone in a pro-town manner, and continues to reek of towni-...ness. Would be genuinely shocked if he flipped scum
Meransiel: Obvious town, he active lurked; yeah, but thats how he plays. Hes stepped it up recently.
MoI: Has been consistently pro-town, active scumhunter... kind of obvious really
Pappums Leather Jacket: This one is more or less a gut read; he seems to be consistent with his claims; and i can't really think of any scum motivation for his actions
Pinky and the brain: im pretty sure everyone thinks this guy is town, lol. Pretty obvious really
David XANATOS: I really don't see the fight with him; he seriously is trying to be scumhunting well; and to me it seems like scums on his wagon. Pretty sure hes more likely ANGRY TOWN, than ANGRY SCUM. Just not feeling the force on him.
Rodion: No way is this guy scum; and i'm pretty sure of it. Not only has he been coherent with all of his reads, hes helped players, stayed in discussion, and just overall townie, really. Would be EXTREMELY shocked if he flipped scum, and would give him mad-respect.

I want zinger dead; hes a distraction to the town, and hes not even on our side.

Silverdrummer/bullet999 looks scummy to me, the way hes been posting just rubs me the wrong way, and hes had lots of :badposting: moments.

Something is up with VEZOK, too. Not quite sure what it is, though. Could be a VI, could be scum. Anyone have any prior knowledge of him? not looking for a meta-case or anything; just wondering if he always seems this ...off

Leon has me scared, hes someone I would consider a friend on this site, and I know hes a good player. At times he seems townie, and other times i'm convinced hes scum

@EVERYONE, WHAT IS YOUR THOUGHTS ON LEONSHADE?

[ThreeIsFrench]

that was hip and stuff

[silverdrummer]

-Junpei

Silverbullet999 is scummy for several inconsistencies which still haven't be sorted out and his tunneling without using anymore logic.

Which inconsistencies good sir.

-David

Silver, a numbered list tends to be ordered. And you still haven't provided reasoning behind the reads.

My list has never been ordered... I have given reasons for each of my reads, where are you confused.

-David and Volkan

/agree - see my earlier failed attempt to budge him on this.

Gonna tear my hair out at this point. I'm NOT Fracking tunneling because I hate him.. I'm TUNNELING BECAUSE HE HASN'T DONE ANYTHING AND HAS NOW THREE TIMES PROMISED TO CATCH UP WITH NO EFFORT WHILE STILL POSTING IN OTHER GAMES. Seriously I'm tempted to pull the same bs he's pulling and see if anyone ends up being hypocritical and calling me out on it. It's like your all blind for some insane reason.

-Leon

@Silver: It seems that your vote is based on that one post by Silver combined with his lack of productivity, is this true or is there more to your read?

Assuming you meant nero. I don't like his last post and for the most part he hasn't been outspoken in my eyes. Also wanted to see how he reacted which he did which i'm getting to .

-------
My other head is making me so happy, still hasn't posted in the friggen qt... nor respond to my pms... just great.

-Rod
I accept your advice and will hopefully recall to enforce it upon myself.

-Nero

I feel I've done a sufficient job of explaining why your slot is scummy and I think that its fairly easy for others to see that.

Let's do your iso since it's nice and easy

Iso: 1: confirm
2: jilly vote
3: 4 votes question/useless
4: vifam vote
5: assume what?
6: Chevre doing it too... w/e the hell that means
7: You don't like my other heads vote on vifam, you vote chevre
8: you agree chevre is similar to pine
9: YOU SUGGEST POST RESTRICTION IS APPLIED TO PINE (thought it was frenchie the whole time)... you answer crap
10: Vote me and say you don't like my other head disappearing
11: Some Edit
12: You find it hard to believe that CJ is mia when he's posting in other games
13: You comment on my other head post stating he's running away and being opportunistic. You ask if your overreacting here.
14: Is pine getting replaced? Also let's dissuade thad from voting pine.
15:

More steam on silver wagon plox

16: you now state my vote on you is omgus
17: Oh I posted enough about you and your case.

So... you've only posted 2 (3 if you REALLY wish to be lenient) posts about "me". One states you don't like CJ's vote and you vote... the next states you don't think he's mia. The last states hmm guys look at this post.. do you guys think i'm overreacting? Then you wish to enhance the wagon on me. So no I don't think you've done a sufficient job at all in explaining why my slot is scummy unless it's simply solely my other head that you have the "case" on.

-ThreeIsFrench

I want zinger dead; hes a distraction to the town, and hes not even on our side.

[/quote][/quote]
This feels like you believe his third party role... which makes me feel you haven't been reading.

[Chevre]

@silverdrummer:

If you had to place your vote on either marco or Meransiel, who would it be and why?

@Zinger2099:

Since you believe the most important thing on Day 1 is to keep everyone talking, what are your opinions on Meransiel's early intentions of waiting until Day 2?

[silverdrummer]

Marco as meransiel is v/la and it'd have no effect whatsoever until he came back.

[Nero Cain]

Marco as meransiel is v/la and it'd have no effect whatsoever until he came back.

Marco has requested replacement.

banghead.gif