TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win

[ThreeIsFrench]

I have been reading; but i'm pretty sure hes full of shit tbh, will converse with DJ to see what he thinks, but idk why town would claim 3rd party

[vollkan]

13)

jilynne1991

vollkan - I generally like how he thinks. Most posts are accurate. I have an objection in the way he quickly backed out of his

ultimatum

on Meransiel. The lesson I learned is that his

ultimata

carry no weight and he will never be able in future games to pressure anyone who read this game through an

ultimatum

. Even if he thought Meran was town, I think he had to keep his word in order to establish more credit to his

ultimata

in his future games. I'm not sure if that falls under the policy lynch definition, but I feel his response to Meran's refusal to cooperate was wrong.

It's basically true that they carry no weight (shhh.... ) . I was relying on Meran not knowing my meta hatred of policy lynching (I think policy lynching a fundamental violation of the play-to-win rule, and so it's something that I will never ever support).

The last two sentences were chopped because, again, you like to talk and talk until the original point is diluted. Thanks. My point isn't about Admiral, it's about the fact that you're trying to justify your vote on Vezok (which you're still doing here, you're just using different words - neat scum tactic) and trying to look as town as possible when doing it. It's not convincing and, most of all, still not town-motivated.

Does anyone think David is acting in a town-motivated manner here?

In defending his vote?

Sorry, I can't see what the crux of your case on DX is.

[Rodion]

@Rodion: If the best player is scum that means they won't NK me because I buddied to them.

WIFOM aside (they could NK you because you buddied to them and use that as proof of innocence), that seems like a good strategy for survivor/SK. For town? I don't think so.

1 - His original JK claim has the possibility of allowing him to live a lot. Why?
a) Town could not kill him and gamble that the reward of permanently blocking a scum player would outweigh the risk of permanently blocking a town PR (lynch avoided).
b) Mafia could not kill him and gamble that the reward of permanently blocking a town PR would outweigh the risk of permanently blocking a scumbuddy (NK avoided).

I said it twice and I'll say it a third time. I don't think his play was good if he really is a town JK, but you

CANNOT

say his strategy makes

ZERO SENSE.

3 - You're wrong. Period. That is the definition of a double-edged sword, not necessarily "pro", not necessarily "anti".

4 - Wrong again. He was being accused.

#753 - Junpei basically says he's anti-town because he is a roleblocker
#783 - Meransiel said his JK claim is opportunistically scummy

You think he is not entitled to a defense?

5 - I think I understood the claim better than you did.

6 - You are absolutely correct here. Obviously, that does not mean I'm wrong, since your "6" does not go against anything I said.

7 - Oh my god. You suck.

1) That is the dumbest thing ever. This isn't poker, we don't take shitty gambles and say "fuck it" and let him live. The safe thing to do is to kill him, and that is what we were going to do, and that's what pretty much any town would do day 1.

4) They were discussing whether or not there's a good chance for a mafia jailkeeper or not. Someone may have said "you could be mafia JK" and then he was trying to somehow prove that wrong, but there's no way he could. It's just a way to derail the thread and make it seem like defending. But he may have been genuinely responding to Meran.

6) The argument was on the topic of mafia Jailkeepers

1 - The safe thing is not necessarily the best.

4 - Skimming much? That is not how it happened. It was actually the opposite. Meransiel basically said "JKs are always town, so claiming JK is opportunistically scummy", to which Zinger correctly replied that he has seen mafia JKs before.

6 - Yes, it was. And you saying that "there is no way to determine at the moment whether there is a mafia JK in this game" is absolutely correct. What I said is that what you wrote is not a good reply against anything I had said before, since I never disputed the impossibility of knowing if we have a mafia JK D1.

My next post will continue my reads.

[andrew94]

Alright Andrew, lets go through your terrible ISO.

reading through, easjo682 first post is very sus. if you look at it. you will know it is wrong.

also, oversoul is not as clueless as she pretends to be. that dude was obviously joking

Easjo's first post said he was against character claims. Is that what you meant? That's scummy? Explain.

its scummy due to a mixture of gut and the fact that he was sitting on the fence early on. (im pretty sure someone agreed with me after)

chkballing classic scum, posting huge wall of reads. i looked at some of them 'andrew lurking scum'. thats your reason?

early claim is null

magna post 308 town tell
leon post 307 scum tell. no unvote?

Scum = huge wall of reads? Just because you're lazy and refuse to even read walls enough to grasp the understandings of them doesn't mean that only scum use them. But I guess now me and David X are scum in your opinion too right? I noticed you haven't mentioned anything on it, if you think that's classic scum then shouldn't you be voting one of us? How about when Vifam posted his reads? You didn't vote him for that.

no some big walls with fluff< a small 2 sentence. i dont like your strawman argument after that

im pretty sure zingers not telling us the full thing.
i.e. theres 24 people in this game, and normally 1 lynch per day and 2 night kills at night.
this makes ur winning chance like 1%.
bS

Yeah andrew... we said this a while back...

im pretty sure i said that first

i think zinger noted that many of us had said that with his claim, the chances of him winning are close to zero.
therefore, he claimed town JK.
dont think we should lynch him.

unvote vote chkballing

did you see hes last post?

What the fuck does this mean? He noticed that we said his win con was near impossible. So he claimed town JK. So we shouldn't lynch him? That's your reasoning?

i was thinking if he wasnt he wouldnt change back?

1) he basically said what i said before and many others have said. then he sits on the fence
2) cos zinger change claim to town pr

1) You do that too

2) That's another common argument, proves my first point.

you see, at L1 people claim.
if we are not lynching people who claim a pr, then who are we gonna lynch
scum can claim pr as well you know

This post. You say that we should lynch a town PR at some point, yet earlier you said that your reasoning for not voting Zinger was that he claimed a town PR

wut? i asked a rheritorical question there, i said if we are not lynching a claimed pr, then WHO will we ever lynch

bolded is mine. please dont use spoiler.
my iso is not terrible, as usual i dont like your arguemtns

[Rodion]

14) Pinky and the Brain - hydra. Disclosed heads. Contributes with cases, but I don't see anything wrong with Leon's delayed Vifam vote. Seems helpful but does not post so much. Would like to see more posts.

15) ZeL1nK - hydra. Concealing his identity (scum points for that). More scum points for his unnecessary vig claim. I still don't know why he wanted to vig Zinger back in the beginning of the game. My read on him will be more accurate come D2 (don't want to explain the reason just yet).

Question for Zelink:

you mentioned there are nuances in Leon's posts that carry town vibes. Can you elaborate on that?

16) andrew94 - not great at assessing probabilities (check #532). Zelink hinted at him being the perfect D1 (policy) lynch target. His signature says he will only skim walls. While that is anti-town, if that is his meta it can't really be used against him as a scumtell. Philosophically, makes me wonder why people do not play with a zero tolerance approach in order to change people's behaviour for the better in future games, but I digress. Will take longer to develop a proper read on him because of his skimming/VI meta that (unfortunately) allows him to do a lot of things without being held accountable.

17) izakthegoomba - one of the latest BWs, dodges questions. Currently V/LA. Curious to see how he's going to defend himself when he is back.

18) Pine - needs to post more.

19) Chevre - needs to post more (roughly 30% of his posts were questioning Silver on his questionable way of ranking scummy players).

20) ThAdmiral - probably the same read I have on Pappums. Looking forward to his catch-up.

21) Vifam/Junpei - scummy as Vifam (sheeping, "he did it too!" defenses), scummy as Junpei (stretching reasons to get Zinger lynched, arrogant attitude towards me even though I'm correct, giving ridiculous reads - "vollkan is town because of his point system"). Tracker claim is hard to fake, but he could be a mafia tracker. Either way, his reports can be useful so we could keep him alive until one of his reports is disputed.

22) Rodion - town.

23) Leonshade - #112 says both interpretations were directly contradictory, but they were not (props to Junpei for also realizing that, by the way). I don't feel the case on him, but I'm rather curious to see Zelink defend him. Could post more.

24) ThreeIsFrench - hydra. Disclosed heads. Doublevoted Vifam, lied about the VC. People bailed him out of it with a WIFOMy defense ("why would scum lie if they could get away with a 'oops, my bad'?") - not sure how I feel about that. Most posts are quick one/two-liners, I'd like him to post more.

25) killerjester - I dislike the vollkan adressed part of his #302. Other than that, I may not agree with his reads, but he is not afraid of showing his opinions and that's great for town's wincon.

26) Oversoul - needs to post more if he wishes to continue.

27) silverbullet999 - hydra. Disclosed heads. Not a fan of the "ask the other head" argument. Don't agree with the Pine pressure since there were many other lurkers around and I didn't get why only one of them got tunneled. I'm curious about something concerning him but I'd rather not disclose it now and just observe.

[Leonshade]

@Nero:

Silver made a good point about you not making much of a case on him, and your answer to that post was to... point out a mistake Silver made. What's your case on Silver and how do you feel about Silver's vote on you?

[Nero Cain]

So... you've only posted 2 (3 if you REALLY wish to be lenient) posts about "me". So no I don't think you've done a sufficient job at all in explaining why my slot is scummy unless it's simply solely my other head that you have the "case" on.

No No No. No more copping out. I posted or mentioned YOUR SLOT in 5 posts and thats not even counting the last 4 or so where its just a back and forth. There is no "me" and "him" its just "your slot".

You're responsible for his posts just as much as he's responsible for yours.

In 285 the slot votes Vifam without a scum read.

In 385 the slot defends Cherve. I then ask why the slot didn't repond to my accusation.

So in 388 cops out and says the other head did it.

In 416 one of the heads is STILL ignoring my accusation.

In 435 the silver head asks for more Pine votes.

In 503 defends Zinger then says the slots ok with a Junpei wagon after stating the following.

your claim as tracker dropped any suspicion i have for you today. For today you are certain town.

In 703 claims to have sent a pm to the other head.

In 707 says to have lied about pming the other head.

LOOK IT!!! CJ head is back in 739 and FINALLY, after 300+ posts, explains his vote on Vifam apparently he voted Vifam since he was a viable lynch. Admits to never having a scum read. Oppertunistic much?

Hypocrite scum is hypocrite. In 896 the slots voting me for a very similar post to silver's 436.

Not a fan of Silver head's reactions to Junepi in 927/930

981 claims CJ head has flaked. Asks if he needs to explain his list.

994 is very confusing to me....CJ head claims that he's still here and that its actully Silver thats being hard to get along with.

f he won't do the Hydra thing, I won't bother doing it myself.

Besides the crap vote on vifam, I think this whole hydra disavowence thing is really really scummy. He's lied twice. And his vote on me is horrorbad.

EDIT

@EVERYONE, WHAT IS YOUR THOUGHTS ON LEONSHADE?

As a refrence point lets look back at the jilly wagon. Vifam, myself and Lenon voted for her. Moi says Vifam is sheeping. Vifam then says that I'm shepping but if I was sheeping how was Lenon not sheeping? She voted after me and used my exact same reasoning. Might mean nothing but its a weak link between Junepi and Lennon.

Also not a big fan of her 307 where he gives Junepi crap for claiming.

@Nero:

Silver made a good point about you not making much of a case on him, and your answer to that post was to... point out a mistake Silver made. What's your case on Silver and how do you feel about Silver's vote on you?

Case is above.

As for his vote; like I said in my case that his vote on me is hypocritical.

I assume that the "mistake" you mention is Silver head's 1023 were he says he'd vote for replacing Marco but not for V/LA Mernsial. This is not a mistake, this is a contrdiction.

[vollkan]

Hypocrite scum is hypocrite. In 896 the slots voting me for a very similar post to silver's 436.

The post he voted you for was:

I really dislike how scummy Silvers bandwagon has no momentum.

His reasoning here was, it seems, simply that your post was unproductive

It's such a productive post that he wins my vote for the moment since a Pine lynch doesn't appear to be happening yet...

435 (I assume you mean 435, because 436 was by marco) was:

Less bickering, more votes on Pine plox

I'm assuming that the hypocrisy here is that both posts are fairly useless?

[ThAdmiral]

I'm back.

Junpei > Came into the game at a disadvantage, has since contributed massively to the Town efforts, claimed Tracker.. I'd put money on him being Town frankly. Eloquent and intelligent, which aids massively when he's explaining his thoughts. Also entertaining.

Jesus! Junpei fanboy much?

ThAdmiral > Reading mostly Town, but in honesty don't like the way he picked up MoI's misquoted post and ran with it without bothering to check it in the slightest.. waiting on him to respond though, so not wanting to jump to conclusions.

To be honest I have been doing a lot of skimming in this game, simply because often that's the only way I can keep up!
Can you point me back to where this alleged misquote happened and I'll have a look at it.

I just realised I have town reads on everyone >= 29 posts at this point. I have some town reads among the players with less than 29, but everyone over 29 is a town read. Either I'm reading this game wrong or scum is lurking.

Woohoo! In the town zone!

Who's hopster? I like his post though (964).

I prefer izak, but he's V/LA, and eh.

Worst. Vote. Ever.

Seriously, voting someone for being V/LA? What the fuck.

No, he's saying he would vote him but he's not going to bother since he's v/la.

Edit: been addressed.

@Junpei, I have noticed you have a tendency to over simplify and exaggerate people's posts to make them look bad. Scum points.

Yes.

Marco has requested replacement. easjo682 failed to pick up prod and will be replaced, I am also looking a replacement for Crappy. So yea, 3 replacements needed.

I will be talking to back up mods and Setup reviewers on how to handle this situation.

Call in favors and/or just pm friendly people.

6) Zinger2099 - started posting without contributing, switched to claiming 3rd-party JK and then town JK (I took his doc claim as a joke). Really scummy to me, but I'm weary of other people exaggerating his scuminess (Junpei/Meran), which leads me to consider the possibility that it was, after all, just a poor gambit (and that the people who exaggerated deserve a deeper look).

I'm pretty sure meran has been arguing against a zinger lynch.

David XANATOS: I really don't see the fight with him; he seriously is trying to be scumhunting well; and to me it seems like scums on his wagon

If so who?


To be continued...

[David Xanatos]

In post #803, he references my post #742 in isolation, completely ignoring #744, in which I apologise and explain I hit "Submit" instead of "preview", and continue my answer.

Very, very selective quoting on his part. He then tried to link it to a post on a completely different subject, saying it didn't answer the question.

Of course it didn't answer the damn question, it wasn't ADDRESSING that question.

[ThAdmiral]

Allow me to cut in on the DavidX attack...

Apologies, Vezok. Not Vifam, got them mixed up there. Regardless, one of the posts you linked was a direct response to Killerjester asking why I wasn't on an RVS wagon after being "specifically invited".

I find it rather ironic actually that you claim it's bad that I changed my RVS vote, and yet at the same time, make it out as though my declining to move my RVS vote onto a stronger RVS wagon is somehow scummy too.

Should we think that you declining an offer to get on to a stronger RVS wagon is a town tell? Is that what you wanted us to think when you declined the stronger rvs wagon?

In addition, how exactly can you "scumhunt" in RVS? The very definition of RVS is poking people to see the responses.. as you've seen with my exchanges RE: MoI, when I get personally involved in something, I tend to focus on it rather heavily.. therefore, my sitting back and observing is my way of trying to catch things that I would otherwise miss.

I don't get it. Can you not post and observe at the same time.
You say yourself the point of rvs is to poke people to see their responses. Don't you think you should have been part of that?

The way you phrase it is as though I'm hopping from an RVS vote onto a wagon for no reason, frankly I read that as trying to imply I'm sheeping, when little could be further from the truth.

I think you're reading things that he isn't saying.

Are you trying to imply that simply hopping onto an RVS wagon is "scumhunting"? That's not scumhunting, that's sheeping. Blatant sheeping at that. You appear to essentially be saying that it's better to follow the pack without reason than observe the field.

No. He's totally not saying that.

Firstly, it's only paranoia if they're not actually after you, and the extent of tunneling shown by you rather proves that you are. Secondly, short, snapping responses don't help Town. It engenders feelings of hostility and doesn't allow any insight into the reasons behind something. Thirdly, over-defensive? I'm responding to points as they're raised. If I reiterate points, it's because someone's asking something I've answered already, and I could either link them to the post, which I believe they'd ignore anyway, or I can spell it out for them. Which would you prefer, number-soup or a few extra lines to read?

I believe when he says "paranoia" here he is referring to the fact you seem very concerned how you're response is going to be viewed by chkballing and others. This is more likely to be behavior from a scum pov.

[David Xanatos]

Firstly, no, it's a null tell. There was no reason for me to get on it, so I didn't get on it. I didn't feel it would be more valuable than poking around in general, so I didn't move.

Secondly, as it says in the very part you quoted, when I get involved in something, I tend to get blinkered. I don't like that, so I take a step back initially to see if I catch anything to home in on.

Thirdly, then what exactly is he implying? The phrase "hopping onto another RVS vote" implies hopping onto a wagon, which is quite obviously not the case.

Fourthly, then tell me, why repeatedly draw attention to the fact I refused to join the Verok wagon? I've explained my stance on it numerous times, yet it's repeatedly drawn as some apparent sign of "scumminess".

And lastly, if you mean me actively avoiding simply telling them to fuck off, that's my attempt to actually address questions and concerns. Unless you're trying to say that clarifying stances and thoughts is a scumtell or something? <sarcasm>And here I thought that sharing information and opinions was something that we need to do as Town.. I now see that everyone has the assignment list except me, and can therefore simply read off who's scum..</sarcasm>

[ThAdmiral]

General readthrough cont'd...

Junpei: Definite town, hes being going after everyone in a pro-town manner, and continues to reek of towni-...ness. Would be genuinely shocked if he flipped scum

When you say "going after everyone" do you mean "just zinger"? If so: correct.

Something is up with VEZOK, too. Not quite sure what it is, though. Could be a VI, could be scum. Anyone have any prior knowledge of him? not looking for a meta-case or anything; just wondering if he always seems this ...off

Vezok has a very idiosyncratic posting style in that he ALWAYS looks scummy.
Very hard, but not impossible, to read.

@EVERYONE, WHAT IS YOUR THOUGHTS ON LEONSHADE?

Not 100% sure. He's not in my townreads, nor is he up amongst my top scum suspects.

[David Xanatos]

ThAd, did you look at Junpei's list of reads? o_0

It's not only Zinger.

And how exactly am I a "fanboy" for noting the fact that he's able to express his thoughts well? That was a copy-paste from the notes I write up on everybody. *shrug*

[ThAdmiral]

In post #803, he references my post #742 in isolation, completely ignoring #744, in which I apologise and explain I hit "Submit" instead of "preview", and continue my answer.

Very, very selective quoting on his part. He then tried to link it to a post on a completely different subject, saying it didn't answer the question.

Of course it didn't answer the damn question, it wasn't ADDRESSING that question.

You said misquote initially. You correct it here by saying "selective quoting" but I just want to reiterate he did not misquote you. They were your words.

I think the issue here is that while you do go on to elaborate in 744 about why you were choosing not to unvote zinger, the sentence in 742 is scummy in isolation, and would be scummy even if it was part of the same post.
Basically my take on it is this: you are saying that you think he is scum because he seems to be lying a lot, however even if he is town he deserves to be lynch for revealing a town powerole. I don't think that last caveat would be required if you truly believed in your stance on scum-zinger, and furthermore it smacks of scum trying to enhance their case on someone unnecessarily; since they know they are wrong about the subject being scum they are worried that they have to make their case look better than it perhaps needs to look.

[David Xanatos]

As I've also stated, I don't believe he /is/ town PR. I fully believe that he is either hostile third party or Scum. The last comment was, as I recall, a response to the people saying "but what if he is town?"

I subscribe largely to the idea of "Lynch all liars". It creates an unneeded level of complexity for Town, and only bites us in the ass on later days if we have to choose between a liar we previously chose to believe, and those who've not shown any reasons for being suspected.

[ThAdmiral]

OMG sooooo much cross-posting!

Firstly, no, it's a null tell. There was no reason for me to get on it, so I didn't get on it. I didn't feel it would be more valuable than poking around in general, so I didn't move.

I don't see why you needed to mention the fact that you didn't get on the stronger rvs wagon then. It seemed like you were trying to get town points for it or something.

Secondly, as it says in the very part you quoted, when I get involved in something, I tend to get blinkered. I don't like that, so I take a step back initially to see if I catch anything to home in on.

Fair enough. I think you could probably try and address that rather than just accepting it, but whatevs.

Thirdly, then what exactly is he implying? The phrase "hopping onto another RVS vote" implies hopping onto a wagon, which is quite obviously not the case.

I don't think the wagon is part of it. He is talking about how you rvs voted twice, about which he stated in 283: "Never in my days have I seen an RVS vote hop onto ANOTHER RVS vote. Something just doesn't feel right with me here. I don't see any town motivation for it". I understand what he means, sort of. It is like you were trying to be too jovial/devil-may-care about your rvs votes.

Fourthly, then tell me, why repeatedly draw attention to the fact I refused to join the Verok wagon? I've explained my stance on it numerous times, yet it's repeatedly drawn as some apparent sign of "scumminess".

tbh I'm not sure about that one. I'll have to check it myself.

edit: I don't see him going on about you refusing to join the vezok wagon. As far as I can tell in his iso he hardly mentions vezok apart from asking you about your current thoughts on vezok and making some comments about you justifying your vote on vezok.

Can you point out where you think he is drawing attention to the fact that you refused to join the vezok wagon?

And lastly, if you mean me actively avoiding simply telling them to fuck off, that's my attempt to actually address questions and concerns. Unless you're trying to say that clarifying stances and thoughts is a scumtell or something? <sarcasm>And here I thought that sharing information and opinions was something that we need to do as Town.. I now see that everyone has the assignment list except me, and can therefore simply read off who's scum..</sarcasm>

Ok you're doing something here which you have done a lot and that is take what people have said, reinterpret it, and then answer the reinterpretation.
I am

not

saying that clarifying stances and thoughts is a scumtell. I

am

saying that you seem paranoid when you say stuff like this:

If I'd simply said "I've answered this", I rather suspect you'd have used that as an excuse to claim I'm "lurking Scum" or similar.

Which clearly seems like you are worried about chkballin is going to say about you, and that you plan your responses so as to receive the least negative response. Which strikes me as something scum is more likely to be concerned about.

ThAd, did you look at Junpei's list of reads? o_0

It's not only Zinger.

Have you had a look at his posts?

It's only Zinger.

And how exactly am I a "fanboy" for noting the fact that he's able to express his thoughts well? That was a copy-paste from the notes I write up on everybody. *shrug*

That's just me having a dig, don't worry yourself too much about it!

As I've also stated, I don't believe he /is/ town PR. I fully believe that he is either hostile third party or Scum. The last comment was, as I recall, a response to the people saying "but what if he is town?"

I subscribe largely to the idea of "Lynch all liars". It creates an unneeded level of complexity for Town, and only bites us in the ass on later days if we have to choose between a liar we previously chose to believe, and those who've not shown any reasons for being suspected.

Ok, that makes more sense now.
As far as LaL goes I don't like to think of anything as black and white. Obviously if someone has lied about a night result and they get caught out they should be lynched, but people

do

gambit and if there is enough circumstancial evidence to suggest someone is town (and I believe that is the case here) such a simplistic rule such as LaL should not be applied.

[David Xanatos]

There was no justification for a gambit though. His is/was a role that would have gone pretty much undetected for a lengthy period of time if played properly, so trying to endear himself to Scum was by no means a justifyable move, either for a Town or Third Party. As Third Party, he reveals he's third party and negative to both sides, as Town, he reveals he's a PR to Scum, and hands them the opportunity to get rid of one of three PRs of their choice.. it's simply not logical and fuels my suspicion of him as Scum. It's the only side I can potentially see benefitting if this "gambit" worked..

[ZeL1nK]

Question for Zelink: you mentioned there are nuances in Leon's posts that carry town vibes. Can you elaborate on that?

Dude, I said that like 30 pages ago. Literally. I can't remember what I was referring to specifically, but I'd assume it had to do with the way his posts were phrased and the intonation I was reading in them. I'll go back and look at it if it's necessary, but considering he's not up for lynching today, it's not a priority. I also haven't been paying much attention to Leon in the past 30 pages.

There was no justification for a gambit though. His is/was a role that would have gone pretty much undetected for a lengthy period of time if played properly, so trying to endear himself to Scum was by no means a justifyable move, either for a Town or Third Party. As Third Party, he reveals he's third party and negative to both sides, as Town, he reveals he's a PR to Scum, and hands them the opportunity to get rid of one of three PRs of their choice.. it's simply not logical and fuels my suspicion of him as Scum. It's the only side I can potentially see benefitting if this "gambit" worked..

Nah , it was a gambit. It just wasn't very well thought out.

[Nero Cain]

Hypocrite scum is hypocrite. In 896 the slots voting me for a very similar post to silver's 436.

The post he voted you for was:

I really dislike how scummy Silvers bandwagon has no momentum.

His reasoning here was, it seems, simply that your post was unproductive

It's such a productive post that he wins my vote for the moment since a Pine lynch doesn't appear to be happening yet...

435 (I assume you mean 435, because 436 was by marco) was:

Less bickering, more votes on Pine plox

I'm assuming that the hypocrisy here is that both posts are fairly useless?

Neo Chain

In my mind I've found scum therefore I want to lynch scum. So my post was questioning why his wagon had no momentum and asking others to go back and look at it and vote if they agree. His posts was asking for more Pine votes. If he says that my asking for more votes on a scummy slot (which happens to be his and that might be why he's pissed) is unproductive then his post asking for more votes on a scummy slot is just as unproductive so that's how I see that.

[Nero Cain]

Also a question got cut off.

@Silver Do you think the question that Cherve asked you was loaded?

[Junpei]

1 - The safe thing is not necessarily the best.

4 - Skimming much? That is not how it happened. It was actually the opposite. Meransiel basically said "JKs are always town, so claiming JK is opportunistically scummy", to which Zinger correctly replied that he has seen mafia JKs before.

6 - Yes, it was. And you saying that "there is no way to determine at the moment whether there is a mafia JK in this game" is absolutely correct. What I said is that what you wrote is not a good reply against anything I had said before, since I never disputed the impossibility of knowing if we have a mafia JK D1.

My next post will continue my reads.

1) So you'd assume that town would take a huge unnecessary gamble?

4) Yes. How about I do this for you. Meran: JKs are always town, mafia would claim JK for that reason. Zinger: I'm town and JK so sure, but I'm not mafia, can't really give you actual proof I'm not, besides town JK would also claim town JK.

Instead it went: Meran: JKs are always town, mafia would claim JK for that reason. Zinger: There are also mafia JKs.

They go on to argue on the topic of mafia JKs, tell me that is not pointless.

[Junpei]

There are a few things that I have to have slated in a post so that it will get addressed.

1)

Re: Zinger question

I hope that this site will eventually show him the ropes to being a competitive mafia player.

You only learn by making mistakes pal.

I use these forums to do all the stupid things I would never consider doing on the other forums where I play mafia so that I can see first hand why doing that is a bad idea without screwing with my rep on the site that I take the game seriously.

Also, something about the format or layout of these boards makes it so that I can't look at it for an extended period of time without feeling dizzy, so I couldn't really play seriously here if I wanted to. All I can ever do is skim reads.

Things you would never consider doing eh? They'd mess up your reputation that you take the game seriously?

Also, to reiterate the question:

Zinger, why did you lie and say that you use this site as your testing ground to do things that you wouldn't do on other sites, when other games prove that that is not the case? What was the purpose that that lie?

It is true that I use this site as a testing grounds to learn more about the game and become better at it.

That doesn't mean I would simply do random crap to throw games for no reason. What could I possibly learn from that?

No, I still try to win. But there's always exceptions to every rule (for example, never lie as town), and here on this site I try to find that exception (to better understand the rule). That doesn't mean I just plan to throw games with no regard for my win-con or my team. You misinterpret what I meant I think.

Oh so now you're saying it isn't that bad at all. Why the sudden change in explanations?

2) To people saying that I am exaggerating my arguments at many points, please take one post to point them out in detail. It is the largest part of the argument against me and is something I'd love to address. I can explain all my actions I've made in this game and would gladly do so for you anytime.

3) ZeL1nK fervently believes that Zinger is stupid town. By that I mean he thinks zinger is both stupid and town. So now the question becomes, has Zinger shown us evidence that he is indeed not stupid? Or perhaps that he isn't town? Perhaps evidence that hes changed since the deceleration that ZeL1nK made? There are many things to watch as the day goes on. I don't think that Zinger is stupid town. I'd be more likely to believe that Zinger is mafia who was upset and didn't care about this game before, however something happened to him(irl or on his other forum) and now he cares more about the game, so he's trying to salvage it. I don't know if he's mafia or thirdparty, but he is definitely one of them.

4) thAdmiral at the start of your post you mentioned "cross-posting" which implies contradictory lines of thought and posting, presumably by David X, however you have shown no clear evidence of that in your post. Sure there may be some scummy things you pointed out, but none that were cross-posting. Can you explain why you mixed that up?

5) Andrew yes you were the first one to point that out, I'm sorry I thought I had read someone else say it.

I'm against a character claim for now, I can't see it helping town so there's no point.

That's fencesitting to you andrew? Basically says that s/he's against character claims, no fencesitting there.

"I was thinking if he wasn't then he wouldnt change back?". That is what you said, and I have no clue how that discredits what I said in any way, once again please reiterate what you said so I can understand it easier.

Okay, if it's a rhetorical question then that would imply that you're saying we have to lynch someone who claims PR. Which was exactly what I was trying to point out, you contradicted yourself from earlier.

edit: I acciedently let out the Rodion thing before the rest of this, I forgot to c/p... Whatever.

[silverdrummer]

-Nero

No No No. No more copping out. I posted or mentioned YOUR SLOT in 5 posts and thats not even counting the last 4 or so where its just a back and forth. There is no "me" and "him" its just "your slot".

Lies, and you don't count the posts AFTER I point out that hey... your pushing my wagon after barely mentioning me.

The accusation of hypocrisy is bullshit because I've been fully outspoken on the lynch for pine.

At LAST you actually produce a full fledged "case" now why did it take you this long to.. "no longer cop out"?

I think your case is exaggerated in some areas and have some problems with it but I'm not going to point them out just yet.

@Silver Do you think the question that Cherve asked you was loaded?

Was it chevre that asked the vote question? (Assuming this) No not really just a dumb way to figure out a list without ties i guess *rolls eyes*.
Also I only glanced at the last vote count when the question was asked of me because I recalled at least one of the two being v/la. Didn't realize the other was being replaced but eh whatever.

[Junpei]

Oh yeah that reminds me, the inconsistency that I was referring to silverdrummer was that you and your two heads seemed to be on different terms and lines of reasoning than each other. You blamed your other head for something and then later tell us that he flaked. However soon after that the other head comes and says that he hasn't flaked. There seem to be some hydra shenanigans going on and I don't like it.