[Mini 1205] Tough Guy Mafia - Game Over!

Amor · Post Post #325 (ISO) » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:21 am

Votecount

tarsonisocelot - 3 (Rainbowdash, ConfidAnon, YankCane151)

Horrifying Hero - 2 (Lobster Catapult, Wickedestjr)
YankCane151 - 2 (HezLucky, bobsnox)
Kid Know Nothing - 2 (avasthearties, el simo)
HezLucky - 1 (Vifam)
Wickedestjr - 1 (Horrifying Hero)
avasthearties - 1 (Kid Know Nothing)
bobsnox - 1 (tarsonisocelot)

Deadline is July 30 at midnight.

Currently looking for a replacement for LobsterCatapult.

bobsnox · Post Post #326 (ISO) » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:31 am

Tars - nothing changed except my mind on what was most valuable for today. He was still refusing to stop tunneling Hez and pushing what really looked like a bad lynch to me. That was antitown behavior and I thought it was time to give up the middle road and remove Yank from the game.

Funny thing is, I'm just as willing to jump on your wagon because we finally have some consensus going. Your misinterpretation of my motivations looks like scumpainting and deflection. "Oh people suspect me? Let me find the easiest target to deflect on." I'm always just that - an easy target. You can read through any of my games here and see that. I don't mind being the bait when I have certain roles because my wagon will inevitably have opportunistic scum on it.

UNVOTE: yank

VOTE: tars

And that wasn't a defense of you

Amor · Post Post #327 (ISO) » Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:07 am

Friend replaces LobsterCatapult, effective immediately.

el simo · Post Post #328 (ISO) » Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:10 am

Eeep sorry guys I've fallen sick, last thing I want to do now is think coherently.

Friend · Post Post #329 (ISO) » Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:16 am

Hey guys. Be back in a couple hours with a catchup post.

Rainbowdash · Post Post #330 (ISO) » Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:41 am

While I do appreciate the rainbow vote count, presumeably in my honor, that kind of thing needs to stop. A few unexpected changes of events recently make me need to reevaluate some things, those last few posts were really inline with Tarin town that I have read before. I should go back and look at one game with bob scum in it that I remember from past ages.

Tarin also gets points for playing pony with me. Being fun has its benifits.

Wickedestjr · Post Post #331 (ISO) » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:51 am

Hey guys. I'm back... and I see the page count doubled in the two days I was away. Catching up now.

Kid Know Nothing · Post Post #332 (ISO) » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:02 pm

So I got stuck at work for an extra two hours. So my plans to post last night went out the window. And I have to leave to go clean the store all night soon.

Rainbow; I can give you my thoughts on HH really quickly, the other two will require a longer post.

He's done nothing. They tried to copy a gambit but failed, because Hoopla's gambit relies on how people reacted to the PGO claim. A miller doesn't have the same effect. The claim did nothing. They've done nothing.

ConfidAnon · Post Post #333 (ISO) » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:36 pm

bobsnox wrote:Tars - nothing changed except my mind on what was most valuable for today. He was still refusing to stop tunneling Hez and pushing what really looked like a bad lynch to me. That was antitown behavior and I thought it was time to give up the middle road and remove Yank from the game.

Funny thing is, I'm just as willing to jump on your wagon because we finally have some consensus going. Your misinterpretation of my motivations looks like scumpainting and deflection. "Oh people suspect me? Let me find the easiest target to deflect on." I'm always just that - an easy target. You can read through any of my games here and see that. I don't mind being the bait when I have certain roles because my wagon will inevitably have opportunistic scum on it.

UNVOTE: yank

VOTE: tars

And that wasn't a defense of you

This is the only scummy thing I've really seen from bobsnox. I don't quite see how he's the easy target, considering no one had made a case on him until tarsonisocelot made one herself. You're willing to jump on the wagon because there's a consensus about it? So if there wasn't a consensus (read - bandwagon), you wouldn't jump on it?

I agree that tarsonisocelot's case isn't good, and I agree that her play hasn't been above suspicion. But it seems like your voting her only for the bad case . . . which boils mainly down to OMGUS.

But this scummy post does not outweigh the scumminess from tarsonisocelot's previous play . . . hmmmm.

where's the Mastin part of the Wicked case?

tarsonisocelot · Post Post #334 (ISO) » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:23 pm

bobsnox wrote:Tars - nothing changed except my mind on what was most valuable for today. He was still refusing to stop tunneling Hez and pushing what really looked like a bad lynch to me. That was antitown behavior and I thought it was time to give up the middle road and remove Yank from the game.

Funny thing is, I'm just as willing to jump on your wagon because we finally have some consensus going. Your misinterpretation of my motivations looks like scumpainting and deflection. "Oh people suspect me? Let me find the easiest target to deflect on." I'm always just that - an easy target. You can read through any of my games here and see that. I don't mind being the bait when I have certain roles because my wagon will inevitably have opportunistic scum on it.

UNVOTE: yank

VOTE: tars

And that wasn't a defense of you

Yank voted for me and you called it OMGUS saying it wouldn't go well for them. That certainly seemed like a soft defence of me, though it could have just been part of your attack on Yank.

Funny how your mind changed around the time others decided to head towards the middle of the road.

And as people have been ignoring you all game then you're hardly an easy target.

I don't mind being the bait when I have certain roles

No town reason at all for this (vanilla?) softclaim.

Yank is town because they aren't scum with you.

ConfidAnon: Could you please make some specific criticisms of the case instead of saying it isn't good?
And HH really needs to post their case/cases.

Rainbowdash · Post Post #335 (ISO) » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:31 pm

HH - Why did you decide to recend your miller claim? At this point I really do not care which of you ponies does the analysis, but sompony needs to very soon.

@mod - Can you make deadline 11:59 or 12:01 so there is no misinterpretation of when it falls? Or just give us a countdown clock, that one is coded into the board at this point.

unvote

Pending answers to questions. If we stall out I am almost fine doing a policy-esq lynch on Vifam who took over Derpy and since then has lurked without providing any type of information to the game.

bobsnox · Post Post #336 (ISO) » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:43 pm

Easy target for you to deflect to, tars. That's what I meant.

I'll start paying closer attention to this game. Sorry guys.

Friend · Post Post #337 (ISO) » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:09 pm

Hey guys, I'm Friend. Here comes my catchup post…questions will be in bold.

@WJ's post 16:

1. Town. Makes me feel less dirty.
2. Scumhunt, duh.

Ooh boy, miller claim. To answer HH's questions in his next post, I think it's a good idea to claim in the first post to avoid the cop investigation, but it doesn't clear HH as town by any means.

Don't like the people that ignore the miller claim, like HezLucky or avasthearties in Post 25.

HezLucky's Post 31 is good posting.

Bobsnox's Post 32 is bad posting. Seriously, not a single comment on the game?

YankCane's Post 37 is also scummy. That doesn't answer el simo's question, and it's pretty blatant shipping of a questionable accusation by ConfidAnon.

@Yank: What purpose do you think AtE serves as scum? How did that apply to el simo's post?

I think it's scummy how wicked shies away from HH's pressure on him in his Post 44. Especially after how he deflects it towards ConfidAnon in his next post. Saying "it's not a lynch-worthy case" shows that he's not out thirsting for blood over something that small. I don't see it as any sort of scumtell.

FoS buddy, vote townie?

Wicked makes a good point in his next post, though.

There's some lurkers around here.

Terrible post by Yonzy in his Post 56, but that's been talked about.

@Yonzy: How much experience do you have with mafia and MS?

Don't know why Wicked hasn't put a vote down on Yank yet.

Also don't really understand el simo's case on Hez. Hez is a strong town read at this point.

Bobsnox, what the hell?

Yonzy is a pretty blatant noob but I can't get a good read on his alignment just yet.

Avasthearties is being useless too. And again…

Bobsnox's Post 86 is just bizarre.

@Bob: Do you remember whose ISO you had up?

KKN seems town. Don't get the wagon on him.

So does ConfidAnon, funnily enough.

Bad vote by Wicked in his Post 115. Weak wagon-hop on someone who's obviously pretty confident on him being scum.

Not sold on avasthearties, HH. And fakeclaim is whatever to me. As null as the original claim.

@HH: Why is avast town?

REALLY think there's a connection between Yank and Wicked. This one hits hard.

Not a fan of Wicked's case on TO. Seemed like he went through the playerlist for an active lurker and decided to try and turn the town's attention towards them.This whole post throws me off, TBH.

God, again. Wicked throws soft suspicion towards Yank like Yank did towards him, but neither of them are willing to put down a vote against each other.

TO seems town.

Egh, don't like Rainbowdash's argument in Post 149. I didn't get a sense of "egging a wagon on" from KKN's post. The way he approaches the case, though, doesn't really feel scum-motivated to me; I just disagree with it.

@Rainbowdash, in your Post 151, why do you call the case on avast nonexistent?

@HezLucky, in your Post 158 you say that there is at least one scum in Yonzy, avast, and tarson. Who is most likely to be scum out of that group?

I think Yank's deflection in Post 163 is scummy. Saying "there's no legit case against me" is not a defense, it's a cop-out.

Same thing with Yank just calling out his attacks as OMGUS in Post 168.

Interested to see if Vifam really does open up a case on Hez. Otherwise, it's not a great vote.

Bob's being active lurky.

@EVERYONE: Does anyone have any meta on bobsnox? Does he play like this as town?

SHITTY USE OF WIKITELLS BY YANK. God I hate that.

Love Rainbow's Post 209 just for the colorful picture. Although I disagree on his lynch pool.

@Rainbow: Why are you not willing to consider anyone else's vote?

Shit why is the pressure on Yank going away. What the hell, people. KKN is town and TO is possibly town too. Neither of them are anyone I'd feel comfortable lynching at this point.

Good posting by Vifam.

Out of that group (Yonzy, avast, bobs, el simo, Rainbow), my list looks something like this from towniest to scummiest:

Bobs
el simo
Yonzy (Vifam)
Rainbow
Avast

They're all pretty scummy, TBH. None of those are town reads. Wouldn't be surprised if there were 2.

Too much yelling and back and forth and this is just getting painful to read.

Wicked is slipping into the background with all this Yank/Hez business, and it's getting awfully suspicious.

@Rainbow: Why is Yank town?

So is el simo. What's happening with him?

Terrible, avast. Lost of wishy-washiness, lots of "I'm not sure what to think…"

Alright.

TLDR:

For all you lazy fucks that don't like reading, here's a pool of people that I wouldn't mind seeing get some rope:

WICKED
YANK
SIMO
BOBS
AVAST
TARSON

That's not in any particular order, but I consider everyone not on that list prob-town for the time being.

That being said…I'm not too sold on the tarson wagon yet. Not willing to call her prob-town, but she might not be scum.

So…

UNVOTE VOTE WICKED

Best place for the vote for now. He needs a lot more pressure than he's been getting. I would feel great about lynching Yank but there doesn't seem to be a LOT of popular support for that.

Friend · Post Post #338 (ISO) » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:10 pm

I would also feel great about lynching avast. At least one of {Wicked, Avast, Yank} is scum.

Wickedestjr · Post Post #339 (ISO) » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:03 pm

Still catching up. I plan to post all of my thoughts at the end, but I'll respond to two posts now...

YankCane151 wrote:Wicked, I see alot of you asking people for their suspicions but I really haven't seen anyone ask you it (I get the general gist, me and Tarson), but do you have an official list?

I'll try to come up with a list when I'm caught up.

tarsonisocelot in post 142 wrote:Wicked, it's a bit early in the game to claim anything definite based on a lack of stated suspicions. I never know what to do as any alignment early game and need more information than you appear to to develop a list of reads.

1. As shown by this post, you did have thoughts on the game, but you hadn't been providing those thoughts.
2. You can strengthen/obtain reads by questioning players. At the time I voted for you, your scumhunting had consisted of a single question directed at HezLucky which had no followup.

Rainbowdash · Post Post #340 (ISO) » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:34 pm

Friend wrote:Hey guys, I'm Friend.

Oooh! Im sure I can make lots of good posts with this in the future.

@Rainbowdash, in your Post 151, why do you call the case on avast nonexistent?

More specifically, the case from KKN is nonexistent for reasons that I went on to explain later. Mostly that it was based off a "bad reaction" to an unexplained vote, which really is about as subjective as you can get. I actually don't have avas as a strong town read here, as he hangs more around the neutral area, but how he is getting pushed there is something that is very wrong and needs to be shut down since it threatens to degrade into theory and semantics arguements instead of scumhunting. Sometimes its best to just make the play that will keep everyone in line regardless of how you view somepony.

@EVERYONE: Does anyone have any meta on bobsnox? Does he play like this as town?

Quick meta-alignment skim shows he was scum in Simpsons Large. Haven't been able to read that game though. Work the early shift this week and am out of town this weekend (lets say im going back to Cloudsdale for housekeeping chores), although I expect access. If somepony else wants to tl;dr it for me I would appreciate it. Tarin is the only one I have meta'd and the recent posts lean heavy to her town game, although the first few aren't even all that close to anyalignment games.

Love Rainbow's Post 209 just for the colorful picture. Although I disagree on his lynch pool.

I have plenty of pictures. And all the links to MLP: FiM episodes. If you haven't watched those you really should, its one of the biggest surprise kids TV shows since Total Drama Island.

@Rainbow: Why are you not willing to consider anyone else's vote?

No one else is making much of an attempt in this game if we remove what went down between Yank and Hez. We have had a continual promise of a case from HH, the avas case from KKN which almost annoys me more then is a tell as I think more since he misses all the possible points I see for the nullest of nulls, there is also the case of... well... hrmm... I actually don't think anyother pony has made a case this game. I may be all for friendship, but they have to make some sort of effort for me not to just consider them off in their own world and needing direction, which I am all to willing to give.

Besides, look at the wagons we got. Yank, HH, KKN and HEZ? I mean, lets throw dice while we are at it.

Shit why is the pressure on Yank going away. What the hell, people. KKN is town and TO is possibly town too. Neither of them are anyone I'd feel comfortable lynching at this point.

I actually agree with everything but Yank, who really hasn't responded like anypony I have ever seen who is scum being throttled by a strong personality, at least in his followup posts to the inital attack. Maybe I have a wrong read here due to that type of play being one area I personally avoid getting into so my mindset misses some tells there, but if he is scum then he made some very risky plays.

@Rainbow: Why is Yank town?

I think the first thing that got me sided with Yank was his response to the questions from Hez, which are near mirror images of what I think the "correct" ones are.

When he got attacked though, he firmly stood his ground and didn't give up what his beliefs were, despite the multiple lifelines that I was trying to throw him in order to stop the continual back and forth that was going on. Attacking Hez was probably about the hardest thing that Yank could have done in that situation, especially when I was opening the doors for a KKN wagon and he never even slightly bit on it. Almost every single one of his posts are worded in ways that do nothing to try and convince people to move off of him, and all set him up to have to spend a long period of time digging out of holes as he continued to attack Hez and CA, who were regarded for the most part as town, instead of going for anypony that may possibly be construed as an easy target. I mean, you saw me take almost ten pages of constant poking to get him to give up what was a complete dead end for him. I just dont see scum so unwilling to cooperate with me, and the only way I really can see Yank scum at this point is if its with someponies like Wicked/Vifam/KKN. Even then, its a bit of a stretch.

Best place for the vote for now. He needs a lot more pressure than he's been getting. I would feel great about lynching Yank but there doesn't seem to be a LOT of popular support for that.

We get a scum flip from wicked and I will reopen that book a bit more, but for now I think he just needs someone to keep him on the tracks.

YankCane151 · Post Post #341 (ISO) » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:46 pm

Friend wrote:

YankCane's Post 37 is also scummy. That doesn't answer el simo's question, and it's pretty blatant shipping of a questionable accusation by ConfidAnon.

@Yank: What purpose do you think AtE serves as scum? How did that apply to el simo's post?

Check #85, as I said it was just a snarky explanation. AtE is a fallacy like any other, used to get on town's good side or to make people relate so they give the person a break.

REALLY think there's a connection between Yank and Wicked. This one hits hard.

Think I already explained that one, but that was a gut read(which was later refined a bit by HH's catchup post)

I think Yank's deflection in Post 163 is scummy. Saying "there's no legit case against me" is not a defense, it's a cop-out.

Same thing with Yank just calling out his attacks as OMGUS in Post 168.

No, you're just being a selective reader. Why's Hez sure town to you, by the way?

SHITTY USE OF WIKITELLS BY YANK. God I hate that.

I was trying everything.

Best place for the vote for now. He needs a lot more pressure than he's been getting. I would feel great about lynching Yank but there doesn't seem to be a LOT of popular support for that.

Or you could build a case against me if you think I'm scum. Why's that again?

Friend · Post Post #342 (ISO) » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:08 pm

Yank wrote:Or you could build a case against me if you think I'm scum. Why's that again?

Oh no, not this.

I'm not going to get into it with you today, especially because there's a group of people that think that you're obvtown. Not worth trying to convince those people to vote for you on a D1 lynch when there's other people that I think are equally probably scum.

I do agree with Rainbow that the amount of wagons needs to considerably drop.

@EVERYONE: How much support is there for a wicked wagon? How about avast?

Cause KKN and HH are town, and I don't feel great about TO either.

Rainbowdash · Post Post #343 (ISO) » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:23 pm

Friend wrote:@EVERYONE: How much support is there for a wicked wagon? How about avast?

I could get behind one of them. Give me until tomorrow afternoon to figure out which though, going to get sleep now as I have to be at work in six hours. A ponies job is never done I tell you.

HezLucky · Post Post #344 (ISO) » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:54 pm

Have reread about half the game. Will have a big post within 24 hours after my driving exam tomorrow.

tarsonisocelot · Post Post #345 (ISO) » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:24 pm

At present I will support either Wicked or bobsnox.

I am unlikely to post within the next day as I will be busy from 0900-2100 and not awake enough to make much sense afterwards.

avasthearties · Post Post #346 (ISO) » Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:24 am

I'm not liking how bobsnox is voting recently. He pretty much dropped all pretense of HH to go against Yank with Tar, which I found odd after this statement he made earlier:

bobsnox wrote:Why is no one looking at HH more? I don't think Yank-Hez is a town v town per se but it's impossible to determine the best candidate between them at this stage. Let's look elsewhere for now.

And then in a later post he also suggests looking elsewhere:

bobsnox wrote:They're bad because it's day one. You don't know as much as you think you do. I know you're not new to this site so what's the deal? More often than not stuff like this gets a townie killed day one and then another townie autolynched day two for leading the wagon. I don't know what you and Hez are but neither of you are good day one lynches based purely on that.

Unless one of you has made a huge scumslip, I suggest we look elsewhere.

Sorry to be the voice of reason <_<

He votes Yank for being "not good for the town", not because he is scummy or such. In fact, he said later:

bobsnox wrote:You're very caustic aren't you? It's not really wishy washy, but you can misrep all you want day one. You're the best person to eliminate at this time. That's how I play day one. I tried to get another strategy going because
I'm not convinced you're scum
, but you are utterly against that. The rampant tunneling on hez and the refusal to seek a better gameplan has convinced me you need to die. Also, the omgus on tars will probably not go well for you.

Emphasis mine. He explicitly stated that he doesn't think Yank is scum, but still voted for him. Voting for someone you don't think is scum is a 100% anti-town move that brings us that much closer to a scum victory. You could say that it was a pressure vote, but he explicitly stated that Yank "needs to die".
And then he flips over to Tar and all Yank is forgotten. I don't like this. As far as bad votes go, this certainly beats out whatever the hell KKN was trying to pull. So UNVOTE: VOTE: Bobsnox.

Friend · Post Post #347 (ISO) » Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:14 am

Avast wrote:Voting for someone you don't think is scum is a 100% anti-town move that brings us that much closer to a scum victory.

Disagree with this for two reasons:

1) Saying that bob didn't think Yank was scum is a slight misrep. He said "I'm not convinced you're scum." Those are two different things.

2) Voting someone out based on policy/other factors not inherently related to scum behavior is not an anti-town move. As a matter of fact, at that point, Yank had been acting in an incredibly anti-town way himself, and IMO the vote was pretty well deserved.

All in all that last avast post doesn't sit well with me. More fuel for the fire.

bobsnox · Post Post #348 (ISO) » Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:02 am

thank you Friend. that post didn't sit well with me either. I haven't paid a lot of attention to avast yet but I'm getting more scumvibes

again, Yank is not obvscum IMO, but he is scummy and antitown. that makes him an ok lynch for day one.

ConfidAnon · Post Post #349 (ISO) » Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:40 am

tarsonisocelot wrote:ConfidAnon: Could you please make some specific criticisms of the case instead of saying it isn't good?

It delves more into the "voting antitown vs. scummy" argument. The vote seems more based on theory, not scumtells. Friend's post does a good job of highlighting this as well.

rainbowdash wrote:I think the first thing that got me sided with Yank was his response to the questions from Hez, which are near mirror images of what I think the "correct" ones are.

When he got attacked though, he firmly stood his ground and didn't give up what his beliefs were, despite the multiple lifelines that I was trying to throw him in order to stop the continual back and forth that was going on. Attacking Hez was probably about the hardest thing that Yank could have done in that situation, especially when I was opening the doors for a KKN wagon and he never even slightly bit on it. Almost every single one of his posts are worded in ways that do nothing to try and convince people to move off of him, and all set him up to have to spend a long period of time digging out of holes as he continued to attack Hez and CA, who were regarded for the most part as town, instead of going for anypony that may possibly be construed as an easy target. I mean, you saw me take almost ten pages of constant poking to get him to give up what was a complete dead end for him. I just dont see scum so unwilling to cooperate with me, and the only way I really can see Yank scum at this point is if its with someponies like Wicked/Vifam/KKN. Even then, its a bit of a stretch.

Alright . . . you've officially removed Yank from my lynch pool.

Friend wrote:@EVERYONE: How much support is there for a wicked wagon? How about avast?

I currently would support the avast wagon moreso than the wicked wagon, but I wouldn't be opposed to either. I REALLY need to see HH's Wicked case (if I have time I'm going to look over the therad again for these two to get a better read myself), because not giving us this case is becoming pretty antitown.