TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win

[Zinger2099]

unvote, vote: silver

It's more out of slim hopes for survival than anything else, though the cases on him have some merit too.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Could everyone please tell me in what order they rank the following possibilities:

1) Zinger is town
2) Zinger is scum
3) Zinger is actually third party?

I'd go 3-2-1. I just don't see town coming up with that kind of detailed third party claim, at all. I do think third party would likely retract if they thought it would help avoid lynch, and I still maintain the business with assuming daytalk suggests not-scum.

[vollkan]

Could everyone please tell me in what order they rank the following possibilities:

1) Zinger is town
2) Zinger is scum
3) Zinger is actually third party?

Ditto. 3-2-1

[David Xanatos]

I'm in agreement, but I maintain that I believe hostile third party. I just don't see a neutral third party doing that, alerting people to their wincon..

[vollkan]

I'm in agreement, but I maintain that I believe hostile third party. I just don't see a neutral third party doing that, alerting people to their wincon..

I think it goes without saying that if he is third-party, he is "hostile". As in, the JK-lyncher-role (or any variant) is inherently anti-town. I severely doubt he would have claimed the way he did if he was a neutral third party.

[ZeL1nK]

People who are voting someone with only a couple of votes need to start thinking about taking sides: zinger or silver.

Nah, I'm quite happy not voting for a townie.

Excuse me while I prod dodge until izak is back so people don't feel guilty about voting him or whatever.

[ZeL1nK]

Oh, and for plj, 1-3-2

[vollkan]

@Thad:

People who are voting someone with only a couple of votes need to start thinking about taking sides: zinger or silver.

Nah, I'm quite happy not voting for a townie.

Excuse me while I prod dodge until izak is back so people don't feel guilty about voting him or whatever.

Reading the above, it occurred to me, with the deadline not being until 12 August, what is the "need" for the lower wagons to dissipate?

[ThAdmiral]

Which clearly seems like you are worried about chkballin is going to say about you, and that you plan your responses so as to receive the least negative response. Which strikes me as something scum is more likely to be concerned about.

I don't agree with this at all. I don't see how DX reiterating to avoid a particular line of attack is scummy. If you're defending yourself already, it's simply pro-"your survival" to make sure you present your defence in a way that isn't going to antagonise people further.

It isn't the reiteration. It is him saying that he assumed he would get attacked if he didn't reiterate.

Could everyone please tell me in what order they rank the following possibilities:

1) Zinger is town
2) Zinger is scum
3) Zinger is actually third party?

1-3-2

People who are voting someone with only a couple of votes need to start thinking about taking sides: zinger or silver.

Nah, I'm quite happy not voting for a townie.

Excuse me while I prod dodge until izak is back so people don't feel guilty about voting him or whatever.

Why, in your opinion, is silver a townie?

Also I won't ask you to rehash your entire argument about izak, but what is your number 1 point against him?
(btw I'm not asking to shoot it down, I'm genuinely interested)

Reading the above, it occurred to me, with the deadline not being until 12 August, what is the "need" for the lower wagons to dissipate?

the day has gone on long enough and I think it's time we reach some consensus. I think competing wagons are optimal for town. I think people not involved in a wagon that has a chance of going to lynch at this point are wasting their vote, or potentially flying under the radar purposefully.

[vezokpiraka]

@Volkan: Most of the games with Fate. Some games with Reck. Let me dig a link if I can find one. Check mafia dating show.

[vezokpiraka]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16952

Here.

[ZeL1nK]

Why, in your opinion, is silver a townie?

- He soft-claimed vanilla on the last page. And it was a genuine softclaim, not an I'm-scum-gambiting-so-maybe-people-will-think-I'm-town softclaim

- The self-confidence displayed in his push on Pine. My opinion on why this makes him look town is because I'm of the opinion that all of the main wagons are town wagons, and he hasn't taken the opportunity to move to any of them. Instead, arrogantly pushes the Pine wagon with posts like #435 and #503 (also the part directed at "Rest of Town" reads as town, too).
^ This point is what most strongly cements him as town in my mind.

- I've liked the way he's explained himself. The silver head, at least, has been consistent and I'm following his explanations, even if I don't agree with a lot of his conclusions. Plus the frustration he's displayed looks genuine.

- Most of the flak he's copped has been because of the disruption caused from the differences in opinions between the heads. I have a totally different view on this compared to MoI's view on hydra dissonance. This kind of dissonance isn't "I'm changing my reads so I don't look scummy", it's "My other head is a massive dick and doesn't agree with me". While that's not townish, it's not something I consider scummy. The only other major issue I've seen with silver is his reads list, and I really don't even know why that's an issue.

Why, in your opinion, is silver scum?

[vollkan]

I don't agree with this at all. I don't see how DX reiterating

to avoid a particular line of attack is scummy.

If you're defending yourself already, it's simply pro-"your survival" to make sure you present your defence in a way that isn't going to antagonise people further.

It isn't the reiteration. It is him saying that he assumed he would get attacked if he didn't reiterate.

Yes? As I said, I don't see how him reiterating "to avoid a particular line of attack" is scummy. It's good tactical play.

the day has gone on long enough and I think it's time we reach some consensus. I think competing wagons are optimal for town. I think people not involved in a wagon that has a chance of going to lynch at this point are wasting their vote, or potentially flying under the radar purposefully.

Ah, sorry.

Purely theory argument, but I don't agree with this sort of thinking. (creates a contrived scenario...etc.)

@Volkan: Most of the games with Fate. Some games with Reck. Let me dig a link if I can find one. Check mafia dating show.

Okay, thanks for that meta.

I point on this, Vezok. Earlier, you said:

@MoI: I'm used to having either fate or reck in big games. When I don't I tend to buddy to the best player in the game. Right now it was between you and volkan and you are better at solving people.

From that, it seems that the reason you buddy is because you prefer to trust the suspicions of good scumhunters (your reason for choosing MOI over me is that you think he is better at "solving people" than me.

But later you said:

@Rodion: If the best player is scum that means they won't NK me because I buddied to them.

Which makes it sound like your main reason is surviving NKs.

So, which is it: scumhunting or survival?

[Junpei]

@junpei,

If I hadn't seen a game of yours in which you've played like this as town, I'd assume you're scum, independent of Vifam's idiocy. Your push on Zinger looks really, really scummy and your lack of scum hunting in general while pushing Zinger makes it worse.

Every post you've made is Zinger this, Zinger that. What are you going to do if Zinger is town?

In this post ZeL1nK says that he thinks my Zinger lynch is scummy. However this is odd because I did so with

a ton of self confidence

. This is ignoring the fact that he is ignoring my attacks on Meran and Andrew as well as all my other posts that I"ve made that aren't in regards to Zinger.

- The self-confidence displayed in his push on Pine. My opinion on why this makes him look town is because I'm of the opinion that all of the main wagons are town wagons, and he hasn't taken the opportunity to move to any of them. Instead,

arrogantly

pushes the Pine wagon with posts like #435 and #503 (also the part directed at "Rest of Town" reads as town, too).
^ This point is what most strongly cements him as town in my mind.

Now it's a town tell to push hard on a wagon? You even say arrogantly so even if you don't agree with my logic it should still be a town tell for you.

This shows that Zinger is doing two things. The first is double-standard scumhunting which isn't scumhunting at all. It is when scum says something is a town tell on one level but a scum tell on the same level with a different person. It's caused in an attempt to form an identity. Which brings me to the second thing he is trying to do, which is form the identity that he is the defender of the two wagons, Silver and Zinger. Most likely so that he doesn't have to choose sides.

[ThAdmiral]

Why, in your opinion, is silver scum?

- was very wishy-washy regarding vifam. Uses phrases like "odd" and "I don't know what to think". Also the heads don't seem to agree about vifam

- voted marco for posting walls/because he seemed scared (what does that even mean?) as far as I can tell. Also uses more wishy-washy phrases about marco such as "Marco's 223 confuses me a bit"

- accusing moi of cheating during their argument

- I tend to think his attack on pine is scummy rather than a sign that he is town. I mean he's attacking a person who isn't here and doesn't look to be coming back. Could there be a softer target?

I don't agree with this at all. I don't see how DX reiterating

to avoid a particular line of attack is scummy.

If you're defending yourself already, it's simply pro-"your survival" to make sure you present your defence in a way that isn't going to antagonise people further.

It isn't the reiteration. It is him saying that he assumed he would get attacked if he didn't reiterate.

Yes? As I said, I don't see how him reiterating "to avoid a particular line of attack" is scummy. It's good tactical play.

I'm not saying it isn't, but I am saying it is something scum would be more likely to be concerned with.

the day has gone on long enough and I think it's time we reach some consensus. I think competing wagons are optimal for town. I think people not involved in a wagon that has a chance of going to lynch at this point are wasting their vote, or potentially flying under the radar purposefully.

Ah, sorry.

Purely theory argument, but I don't agree with this sort of thinking. (creates a contrived scenario...etc.)\

Fair enough.

[Leonshade]

@Pappums:

3-2-1. I think Zinger was originally claiming his actual alignment (if not necessarily role) because he thought that would keep him safe from both scum and town. After a wagon on him formed, he claimed town in an attempt to stay alive. I could also see him doing a similar gambit as scum, though I consider it less plausible.

I don't think we're in a hurry to lynch anyone, this Day still seems pretty active to me.

[ThAdmiral]

Also to add to the silver case:

I don't have the same problem as others about his list (I believe others thought it weird that he had a list of suspects, but then voted someone not on that list, but that seems more like a miscommunication), but I do have a different problem with it:
other than his first two suspects marco and pine, who are suspects essentially because they haven't posted much and also haven't been replaced (somewhat ironically he holds very strongly to the viewpoint that if someone

is

replaced it's a null-tell, so logically if pine and marco had just flaked a bit harder they would be fine!), he has:
magna: who attacked him
meransiel: who attacked him
nero cain: who attacked him

...and goomba: because ?
As far as I can tell he mentions goomba a grand total of once and I can't fathom what he is talking about:

the goomba's 323 sounds like "hey scum can claim prs.. let's get this wagon back up and running for some "unforseen motivation"".

[vollkan]

Yes? As I said, I don't see how him reiterating "to avoid a particular line of attack" is scummy. It's good tactical play.

I'm not saying it isn't, but I am saying it is something scum would be more likely to be concerned with.

I don't accept that.

EVERY player, town or scum, puts some thought into crafting their posts so that they aren't received poorly or miconstrued. Scum, arguably, have more individual incentive to want to avoid being attacked (this is something I am skeptical of), but I don't think you have any basis for assuming that that translates into a statistically significant likelihood of it being scum.

The only difference between this and any other case is that DX admitted that was what he was doing.

[Junpei]

Pre-emptive defenses in arguments and debate especially show an understand of the content and that he's aware of what is going on. I have used premptive defenses all the time as town, it is just something I will do if I see something obvious that the opponent is going to say. It is only natural to set-up the other person debating with you in a position where it is least likely that he will win, I call it smart play, you call it scummy.

[ThAdmiral]

Yes? As I said, I don't see how him reiterating "to avoid a particular line of attack" is scummy. It's good tactical play.

I'm not saying it isn't, but I am saying it is something scum would be more likely to be concerned with.

I don't accept that.

EVERY player, town or scum, puts some thought into crafting their posts so that they aren't received poorly or miconstrued. Scum, arguably, have more individual incentive to want to avoid being attacked (this is something I am skeptical of), but I don't think you have any basis for assuming that that translates into a statistically significant likelihood of it being scum.

The only difference between this and any other case is that DX admitted that was what he was doing.

Agree to disagree. I think it does translate into a small increased in likelihood of it being scum.

[ThAdmiral]

Pre-emptive defenses in arguments and debate especially show an understand of the content and that he's aware of what is going on. I have used premptive defenses all the time as town, it is just something I will do if I see something obvious that the opponent is going to say. It is only natural to set-up the other person debating with you in a position where it is least likely that he will win, I call it smart play, you call it scummy.

Maybe I am wrong and it is just a playstyle thing. But I know whenever I am scum I am more conscious about appearing town and avoiding attacks, and am more paranoid about how I'm perceived.

[ThreeIsFrench]

Have to agree with Thad, as scum you do get more jittery/frantic.

Also pretty sure it is 3-2-1 as well, highly doubt zinger is town. Like a 2% chance maybe.

Silver is also scum, but Zinger needs to die today; no matter what.

[Zinger2099]

Also pretty sure it is 3-2-1 as well, highly doubt zinger is town. Like a 2% chance maybe.

I'll be sure to have a laugh at your expense when I flip town.

Also, to answer the question everyone's been answering:
1-3-2

@Everyone voting me:

will you pledge to eat your hat when I flip town? Kthxbai.

[Zinger2099]

In this post ZeL1nK says that he thinks my Zinger lynch is scummy. However this is odd because I did so with

a ton of self confidence

.

Of course you were. After all, as scum you can afford to be as confident as you like, right?

As town, you should always have some doubts. Being too confident is a scumtell.

[vollkan]

Also pretty sure it is 3-2-1 as well, highly doubt zinger is town. Like a 2% chance maybe.

I'll be sure to have a laugh at your expense when I flip town.

Also, to answer the question everyone's been answering:
1-3-2

Why do you think that you are more likely third-party than scum?