TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win


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Post Post #1225 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:32 am

Post by Rainbowdash »

Junpei wrote:I know you've recently come into the game, but perhaps you could elaborate on the silver town tells?


His early reaction to the claim from Zinger. Him being on that wagon is actually the only reason he is not one of my top town reads.

If I think of anything else I'll let ya know, welcome to our game. Oh, and why do you think that the game should have ended 20 pages ago? I understand the claim, however that implies that you are a fan of ending days as soon as you feel you know mafia, without gathering further information/prolonging the day. Am I correct in this assumption?


All anti-town claims should be lynched on site. This includes claims of maifa, survivor, lyncher or anything else that does not contain the town win condition. We are going to lynch him, so continuing to bicker and everything else like we have been is going to first create massive clutter like already has happened, which leads to ponies apathying out of the game. It also allows scum to make more of an optimal kill as they know more about who is lynchable, who has what reads, and who is going to the a threat to them in subsequent days. So not saying my other reads. Zinger is the lynch today, that is all. The fact the day has not ended is disheartening.

Any post of mine until the day ends is just going to be a repitition of this post, possibly worded differently.
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Post Post #1226 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:47 am

Post by Junpei »

If every post is a reiteration of that, then you will be no help for the town. I understand wanting the day to end in a Zlinger lynch, I feel the same , however we must advocate for said lynch and be active in doing so, saying "this is what i want now u do" won't get anything done. Besides you're a new player and we have no idea what to think of you, giving us content is the best way for town to understand you, and that is something you should want. Scum getting reads on what will happen are fine, we can anticipate their thoughts and understand their kills.
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Post Post #1227 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:12 am

Post by Rainbowdash »

Junpei wrote:I understand wanting the day to end in a Zlinger lynch, I feel the same , however we must advocate for said lynch and be active in doing so, saying "this is what i want now u do" won't get anything done.


Actually if it works it does get more done, and is best in the long run. Since:

Scum getting reads on what will happen are fine, we can anticipate their thoughts and understand their kills.


Scum getting reads is not fine. The more in the dark we leave scum, the better we are in the long run. Letting scum take in the dark shots weakens them far more than town taking in the dark shots is weakened. Scum kills tend to have multiple levels of reasoning attached to them, so are difficult to correctly pin down reasoning of, especially in the early stages of a large game.

Zinger is the lynch. Its the correct play not only based on standard theory, but also his play for the game. The day needs to end as well, as 50 pages is at least 20 too many.
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Post Post #1228 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:20 am

Post by hipaddict1 »

Rainbow, do you have any off-site experience?

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Post Post #1229 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:26 am

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You don't seem to understand. Within these 27 people during these town meetings are scum. They get the exact same information as us, as a result town cannot get any information from these meetings that scum can't too. So the more in the dark we leave scum the more in the dark we are. They are the informed minority, these is their advantage, they will have it no matter what and there will always be predictions of who is more lynchable. It is already clear who those people are. The fact of the matter is that we can understand why someone was killed using setup-scenario knowledge and what happened the previous days.

Remaining silent like you're suggesting is -EV town and makes the days events completely out of your hands. If you're town that is bad.
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Post Post #1230 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:34 am

Post by Rainbowdash »

hipaddict1 wrote:Rainbow, do you have any off-site experience?

NA1


This shouldn't matter to you.

Junpei wrote:You don't seem to understand. Within these 27 people during these town meetings are scum. They get the exact same information as us, as a result town cannot get any information from these meetings that scum can't too. So the more in the dark we leave scum the more in the dark we are.


Town roles are inherantly designed to be better shot in the dark powers though. A cop can catch scum if they spend five hours looking over posts or go to a RNG, a town RBer can catch a lucky shot in the dark, a watcher can be hovering over the right person. These results are still very powerful in the long run even when targeting at random, while most inherantly scum roles are counters for town roles. To be most productive they need to have ideas of where the town roles are, which is why people try to push lynch all vanilla claims to protect those town roles.

Remaining silent like you're suggesting is -EV town and makes the days events completely out of your hands. If you're town that is bad.


Im not remaining silent, im getting Zinger lynched, which is all that is extremely important about my suspicions.
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Post Post #1231 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:02 pm

Post by Junpei »

Rainbowdash wrote:

Junpei wrote:You don't seem to understand. Within these 27 people during these town meetings are scum. They get the exact same information as us, as a result town cannot get any information from these meetings that scum can't too. So the more in the dark we leave scum the more in the dark we are.


Town roles are inherantly designed to be better shot in the dark powers though. A cop can catch scum if they spend five hours looking over posts or go to a RNG, a town RBer can catch a lucky shot in the dark, a watcher can be hovering over the right person. These results are still very powerful in the long run even when targeting at random, while most inherantly scum roles are counters for town roles. To be most productive they need to have ideas of where the town roles are, which is why people try to push lynch all vanilla claims to protect those town roles.


But scum could also get lucky and hit strong PRs too right? Information is merely a factor in determining how lucky you'll get when it comes to selecting night kills and tracks/cops/saves. Point in case is that staying quiet doesn't help either side.

RainbowDash wrote:
Remaining silent like you're suggesting is -EV town and makes the days events completely out of your hands. If you're town that is bad.


Im not remaining silent, im getting Zinger lynched, which is all that is extremely important about my suspicions.


You aren't doing anything but putting up an almost meaningless vote. You aren't advocating for the lynch. If you were then we'd be discussing how scummy what Zlinger has done is and why he's mafia/third party rather than town, instead we're discussing what YOU'RE doing and now I have to think how scummy I think this is instead.

Also@Hydra... Is the hydra NA1 and Hiplop?
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Post Post #1232 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:03 pm

Post by Junpei »

Also off site experience is important to know about, so tell us if you have any.
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Post Post #1233 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:24 pm

Post by jasonT1981 »

drmyshottyizsik replaces EasJo, thank you
and Banshee replaces Marco, thank you


Only one more needed :)
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Post Post #1234 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:46 pm

Post by hipaddict1 »

Rainbowdash wrote:
hipaddict1 wrote:Rainbow, do you have any off-site experience?

NA1


This shouldn't matter to you.

Actually, it should. To everyone. Why wouldn't it?

Junpei wrote:Also@Hydra... Is the hydra NA1 and Hiplop?


Correctus.
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Post Post #1235 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:52 pm

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Wow and I thought I was going to get replaced. I am catching up guys. Got like 20 pages ish to read
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Post Post #1236 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:55 pm

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Rainbow, who did you replace?
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Post Post #1237 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:12 pm

Post by Banshee »

A few notes on the initial readthrough:

What's with all the name claims and roleclaims on day one? SRSLY?

Rodion's post 1007: Go back and read this. Really read it. I have rarely seen a more conciliatory piece of work in a game of Mafia. I especially like this little gem:

Rodion, post 1007 wrote:Zinger2099 - started posting without contributing, switched to claiming 3rd-party JK and then town JK (I took his doc claim as a joke). Really scummy to me, but I'm weary of other people exaggerating his scuminess (Junpei/Meran), which leads me to consider the possibility that it was, after all, just a poor gambit (and that the people who exaggerated deserve a deeper look).


He agrees with the crowd that Zinger is "really scummy" but also casts a wide IGMEOY at everyone who agrees with him. That's a neat trick, if you can pull it off.


Nero Cain, post 1150 wrote:We can argue all day if you want Silver but thats only helpful for scum wich I suspect is what you want.


I disagree with this completely. In my opinion arguing always gives more information to town, especially after some flips have occurred and people go back over the arguments with knowledge of the alignments of some of the parties involved.

Junpei, post 1152 wrote:I am not spamming this thread I am scumhunting. I know I have a lot of posts that might not be evident of that directly but it is clear that I am helping town move forward.


To me it looks more like obstructing town by monopolising the conversation with huge Walls o Text (tm), but I could be wrong.

Rainbowdash, post 1227 wrote:Scum getting reads is not fine. The more in the dark we leave scum, the better we are in the long run. Letting scum take in the dark shots weakens them far more than town taking in the dark shots is weakened. Scum kills tend to have multiple levels of reasoning attached to them, so are difficult to correctly pin down reasoning of, especially in the early stages of a large game.


I don't know what this means, honestly. But I think I agree with Junpei, which is unfortunate and disconcerting since I'm not buying his PR claim and I think he's scum.

I'm not placing a vote yet, since I think I need one more reread/skim and I want to look at a couple of ISOs before I present a case, but I wanted to say hello and get a few thoughts down in the meantime.

Oh, and I think Zinger is probably an anti-town third party. There isn't a good reason for that claim otherwise. Second choice would be scum, and I don't see any way he would be town with that play.

Back to reading this over again.
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Post Post #1238 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:33 pm

Post by Rainbowdash »

Junpei wrote:But scum could also get lucky and hit strong PRs too right? Information is merely a factor in determining how lucky you'll get when it comes to selecting night kills and tracks/cops/saves. Point in case is that staying quiet doesn't help either side.


Key work "luck". Any information role for town is, for lack of a better word, informative. Negative tracks/watches still give small tells of alignment. Scum roles are all crafted with the intent of dealing damage to town roles, from the most simple RBer to the far more complex Voyeur. Scum MUST have an idea of who town powers are if they want to use their role correctly, town does not need to have great scum reads. Its that same prinicple that encourages scum to NK Derpy Ponies who drew PRs. Staying quiet does help town more than scum once a lynch is decided.

You aren't doing anything but putting up an almost meaningless vote. You aren't advocating for the lynch. If you were then we'd be discussing how scummy what Zlinger has done is and why he's mafia/third party rather than town, instead we're discussing what YOU'RE doing and now I have to think how scummy I think this is instead.


Apart from the fact that all anti-town claims should be lynched on site since they play directly against the town win condition at worst only in select scenarios - Zinger refuses to do anything this game that can be construed as scumhunting and in fact has shows signs of going to act purely based on emotional bias and vendettas towards other player instead of doing anything that is useful. This has continued to the extent where he has openly admitted to be borderline trolling instead of playing the game, which is already playing directly against the town win condition.

Now, in addition to that you have him name claiming which really can accomplish nothing according to mod flavor (thankfully since I have zero idea who a couple of these claims are from or who I am), but it can manage to create a good baseless distraction for a little bit as that all gets sorted out instead of any scumhunting being done.

Anyway, the biggest reason that he is scum, more likely than third part even, or queen Derpy Pony, is the way he has delt with a few claims throughout the game. Initally his response to the "vig" from ZeL1nK is one that seems unable to determine if its real or not, I would side with he is legitimately worried though. Nothing at this point which would be a natural breadcrumb area is there, instead we just get some more or less nothing useful. Possibly the only upside of any play early is he voted Chevre. Going back to the tell though, I can't believe for a moment that any town would be braindead enough that with a vig claiming intent to kill them, decides its time to fakeclaim third party as a town power role.

The funniest part is, the claim made TONS of sense to me matched with his early game play, although its still a lynch on site claim. Then there is his vote on the uncountered tracker. Also the zero scumhunting.

@Junipi - Does your role have flavor backing to it, yes or no?

There, more of a reason even though its been all there for 20 pages. I will even throw in charm.

Image

So now its time to lynch who should have been lynched ages ago, as the only type of defense I really see people trying to throw out there is that he is too scummy to be scum.

Also I still see no reason to show my playing record, since it should have little if any bearing on what your read of me is. Who I replaced is probably on the front page as I don't remember which one I got.
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Post Post #1239 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:40 pm

Post by hipaddict1 »

Could someone fill me on on who has claimed what? Thanks.

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Post Post #1240 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:44 pm

Post by David Xanatos »

As far as I recall, Junpei claimed Tracker, Zinger claimed.. many things, but eventually settled on Town JK, and Zel1nk claimed Vig.
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Post Post #1241 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:47 pm

Post by Junpei »

Hmm... No I would say that my role flavor does not back my role of Tracker.

This makes me wonder about Zlingers' flavorclaim and how it had perfect flavor backing though when he claimed third party JK.
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Post Post #1242 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:51 pm

Post by David Xanatos »

And.. a fresh revelation there..

What exactly do you mean? Doesn't it, you know, tell you what you can do?
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Post Post #1243 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:54 pm

Post by Junpei »

David Xanatos wrote:And.. a fresh revelation there..

What exactly do you mean? Doesn't it, you know, tell you what you can do?


My flavor, as in my characters bio, doesn't outline a tracker at all. That is assuming that a tracker is someone who follows people at night to see where they've been.
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Post Post #1244 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:57 pm

Post by Rainbowdash »

Junpei wrote:Hmm... No I would say that my role flavor does not back my role of Tracker.

This makes me wonder about Zlingers' flavorclaim and how it had perfect flavor backing though when he claimed third party JK.


Of course you dont, and this is the EXACT reason we kill him today. Was almost hoping for a two birds one stone move with that one but meh.

Image this scenario, I image for anypony of moderate smarts it will be hard to get yourselves into that Derpy of a mindset but try anyways, you are a town JK who wants to fakeclaim third party vanilla-izer/JK/lyncher combo.

You look at your role and go "oh look, there is flavor about who my character is, but there is nothing about WHY my role is what it is". What would be a good idea for a fakeclaim here? Is it

A) Say you are a third party nutzo role with flavor backing your role type
B) Say you are a third party nutzo with no role flavor
C) Say you are just a third party nutzo
D) Don't fakeclaim

Now, because of the mindset thing I spoke of, we have to throw out D unfortunately. The thing is though, even Zinger would know enough not to change what his role actually is if he was town to the extent where it doesn't look like a standardized role format. What I can see is him being some wierd third party lyncher-esq role, or mafia goon. Each of those fits the bill of not knowing if roles are flavored or not past the character name, since they would presumeably have the same flavoring as vanilla town. So Zinger is scum also caught now for making up an aspect of his role, and continues to be scum for scum. Lynch him now.

Wish you would have brought this up 20 pages ago, but no time like the present to make up for it.
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Post Post #1245 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:03 pm

Post by Junpei »

...I missed something so obvious, ugh, this is particularly annoying because it goes against my entire framework of how I play, but I suppose I'm still not as good as I'd like.

Anyways great point, I wish I had seen it before, although even if I had I wouldn't have brought it up right away. The reason being that it was possible that he did that for the purpose of using it later on (for when he announced he was in fact Town JK) to say "hey look, role PMs dont have flavor backing but my post says my claim did, so that's how I prove it was fake". However once he claimed and has been given lots of time to say that, it no longer is something he should withhold if he had done it. So your bringing this up now is actually great timing, and should be a nail in the coffin for Zlinger.
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Post Post #1246 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:08 pm

Post by David Xanatos »

One minor point here.. let's not get buried in the assumption that all roles have completely unrelated flavour. Either by coincidence or mod planning there could a few that fit together nicely. It is a nice catch though, let's just not rely on it as infallible.

I'm nearly defending Zinger.. I feel.. dirty somehow.
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Post Post #1247 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:12 pm

Post by Junpei »

David Xanatos wrote:One minor point here.. let's not get buried in the assumption that all roles have completely unrelated flavour. Either by coincidence or mod planning there could a few that fit together nicely. It is a nice catch though, let's just not rely on it as infallible.

I'm nearly defending Zinger.. I feel.. dirty somehow.


Come on now man, did you read his claimed PM?

Zinger2099 wrote:
I am a Self-Aligned Jailkeeper. Each night I can target someone and jail them. They are both roleblocked and protected that night. I can only do this to each player once.

If I target a specific player, they are instead permanently roleblocked and I am removed from the game with a win.

If that player dies before I get a chance to do this I can no longer win (but remain in the game until it ends or I die).

The flavor is such that I have a deal with the local jail warden (he owes me a favor). He locks up people I chose so I can go into their homes and rob them while they aren't home. A certain someone has something in their home which will be extremely valuable and allows me to give up my life of crime and live the big life.


His flavor specifically says that he is associated with a JAILKEEPER and that he JAILS people that ZLINGER CHOOSES and that ONE PERSON whom ZLINGER MIGHT CHOSE has an ITEM that will allow him to live the big life(ergo win).
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Post Post #1248 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:15 pm

Post by David Xanatos »

Yes, I know that, but for one, he's paraphrasing, and secondly, I'm not saying his flavour isn't fake. I'm making a minor note about going down the thought-track of "all roles have unrelated flavour". If I didn't believe Zinger was Hostile 3rd/Scum, I wouldn't have my vote on him.
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Post Post #1249 (ISO) » Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:17 pm

Post by Rainbowdash »

David Xanatos wrote:One minor point here.. let's not get buried in the assumption that all roles have completely unrelated flavour. Either by coincidence or mod planning there could a few that fit together nicely. It is a nice catch though, let's just not rely on it as infallible.

I'm nearly defending Zinger.. I feel.. dirty somehow.


While im not too familiar with Earl, or many TV shows (rant goes here about not being a MLP: FIM character which I would have been all *squee* over), his bio is based around one season (I think?) of the show. I really never watched my show enough (yes I finally looked up who I am) to know how much of it my bio covers, but it seems like a general background of the character over multiple seasons.
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