Newbie 1138 - Game Over! Town Win!

For Newbie Games, which have a set format and experienced moderators. Archived during the 2023 queue overhaul.
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Post Post #50 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:23 am

Post by whilst »

dicknose wrote:i have a couple questions. townies, what's your strategy? mafiosos, what is yours?

In every game I've played (whatever alignment I may be), I've always decided the best action on Day 1 is to
not
vote "No Lynch" -- ending a day prematurely is horrible: If you're mafia, you miss out on chances to make other people look like scum. If you're a townie, you miss out on chances to draw out the scum. Regardless, I also will not lynch another player, unless he or she is obviously mafia. I think you'd agree that it's difficult to have an accurate mafia lynch.

Honest Abel wrote:
BBMolla
  • He only answered my question (begrudgingly) after whilst pointed out that BB would only continue arguing if he were scum.


It's not like it changed anything. Both of you are still arguing. Granted it's discussion, neither of you seem capable of "moving on". I think both of you need to accept the fact that you have diverging strategies.
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Post Post #51 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:36 am

Post by Honest Abel »

I wouldn't say I ever argued with him. I got use out of my question, and used it to take a first stab at a real vote. He can believe or say he believes that my question was irrelevant if he wants; I'm not disputing that. Maybe the fact that he says it's irrelevant is what makes it relevant to me.
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Post Post #52 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:53 am

Post by whilst »

Wickedestjr wrote:Personally, I don't have any issue with any of the questions asked thus far. In fact, I have my own question to ask everyone. @Everyone- Did you want to be mafia or town this game? Which allignment would you have liked to receive the most?

I overlooked this. I wanted to be mafia, I think it's more fun. I like to kill people (ha). It's hard to be unhappy with any role you receive though. This is all personal preference though.

A question about the gameAre we expected to tally the vote counts by ourselves? Or will the moderator do this for us?
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Post Post #53 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:53 am

Post by Honest Abel »

I also forgot about that question. I like being town more. It gives me an opportunity to learn how to scumhunt. Being mafia is the same as being town during the Day phases, except you know you aren't actually scumhunting seven of the other eight players. Being mafia, even when you win, isn't really great experience, because you know too much.

The mod will post vote counts if he/she is diligent.
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Post Post #54 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:54 am

Post by cavjj »

Current votecount (This is UNOFFICIAL, just had a quick skim through and tallied up, may be mistakes)

Honest Abel: 3 votes
(Dark Claymore, BBmolla, I Am Innocent)

BBmolla: 1 vote
(Honest Abel)

No-one else has any votes.
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Post Post #55 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:04 am

Post by cavjj »

Honest Abel wrote:Let's skip the stupid discussion about how odds are slim I was chosen to be mafia on both rolls, shall we?


This is the one thing that has bugged the hell out of me since your first post. So half due to suspicion and half due to:

If I get to L-1, I will share the rest of my thoughts, but they will be premature.


VOTE: Honest Abel
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Post Post #56 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:39 am

Post by Honest Abel »

Let me just make sure you guys understand that I'm NOT saying that I have less of a chance of being mafia due to being mafia on the first roll. I was pointing out that it's a dumb conversation to have because it's statistically obvious that I have the same chance of being mafia now as I had on the first roll. I don't understand why people are using that statement as motivation to vote for me, considering the statement successfully prevented the discussion entirely and casually invites anyone to suspect me in spite of the idea.

cavjj, you admit that you want me to share my thoughts prematurely? Sharing them now will only tip people off that I find them suspicious and will be watching their moves for certain things, thereby changing their behavior and making their patterns more difficult to distinguish. Being premature, they are also possibly ill-formed and uninteresting. I hope it's worth it to you:
whilstwhilst has been playing the people pleaser. Despite the criticism BBmolla and I exchanged about our questions, whilst continually agreed with both of us about everything until post #50, in which he disagreed with both of us. I was going to keep track of whilst's propensity to act agreeable or neutral. As of yet, I've come to no conclusion about whether this is the act of a polite townie or cautious scum, which is why I didn't want to share so soon.
DarkClaymoreDarkClaymore's answer to my question about a hypothetical Night 0 kill went above and beyond my expectations for the amount of thought a player would put into the question. I got a lot of the predictable "kill the most experienced player" answers and a lot of agreement, but DarkCavalier took the question and considered various answers from every angle, including whether the IC or SEs were scum and who they would kill. He also mentions the WiFoM aspect to his own answers. I was going to keep track of his posting style to see whether he's just smart and talkative, or if he tends to over-analyze things; doing so would have helped me determine whether he's an engaged townie or over-analytical scum, which is why I didn't want to share so soon.
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Post Post #57 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:42 am

Post by Honest Abel »

I also request that before someone hammers me, we each share our reads and thoughts on every other player before the Day phase ends. This will be helpful to look back on in subsequent days.

Also, I just realized that the vote count was posted by cavjj and not the mod, and I thought one of those players withdrew their vote for me. I'll check in a second. If the vote count is wrong, I may suspect cavjj for attempting (successfully) to draw out my premature thoughts.
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Post Post #58 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:46 am

Post by Honest Abel »

Okay, there were unvotes of I Am Innocent, but not I Am Innocent unvoting me, so the vote count is correct. Please don't hammer until you share reads of other players. There's too little information in the thread to move on to the next phase, in my opinion.
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Post Post #59 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:59 am

Post by cavjj »

UNVOTE: Honest Abel

A fair request. I've unvoted so you aren't in immediate danger of a hammer. That is, however, the only reason, you're still top of my suspect list. I will follow this with a summary. I am due in a meeting in half an hour but I will post as much as I can before then and anything I have ommited or missed on my return.
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Post Post #60 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:19 am

Post by cavjj »

I'm not going to get chance to post my thoughts on every player before I have to get off so I will do that later. In the mean time, my thoughts on Honest Able and why I put him to L-1

Ok so your first post contained:
Let's skip the stupid discussion about how odds are slim I was chosen to be mafia on both rolls, shall we?


You did talk about that and said you DON'T think that that means you have less chance. I don't know whether it was just joking around while being in the random stages to create discussion, but regardless of what you thought about it, why even mention it? You are asking us, not to talk about the possibility of you being scum, that's what it boils down to.

------------------

cavjj, you admit that you want me to share my thoughts prematurely? Sharing them now will only tip people off that I find them suspicious and will be watching their moves for certain things, thereby changing their behavior and making their patterns more difficult to distinguish. Being premature, they are also possibly ill-formed and uninteresting. I hope it's worth it to you:


They were admittedly pros and cons of trying to force your hand. As you said yourself, putting scum under pressure is one of the best strategies available citing a game where not once did you actually have to lie. If you are scum, the way I see it, you've given people on here an oppertunity (which I took) to put yourself under pressure. I was looking for a slip to be honest. I would rather go for an early successful scum lynch early on through gut instinct and risk losing a VT if that means that we have one less scum embedding themselves into the game, gathering... "supporters" (for want of a better word)

--------------------

The other reason, I wanted to press you and why I'm suspicious is your treatment of the random questions at the start of the game. You aren't bothered about who has played where or how many times and whatever else, but some people are. At least one person is, they asked the question. The way I look at it; if every question, no matter how mundane, who it was asked by (and what role that person I think might have) was answered, we gain more information and it makes it easier to find who is a VT and who isn't. If I think you are a scum and you ask a question, I will still want to see it answered by the group/person you asked it to. I don't think I'll be alone with that stance.

But, you wanted to get right down to the thick of it. I actually thought in my head, reading the post "He's looking for PR's". Are you looking for PR's to save yourself? Or because you are Scum?

Apologies for leaving at this point but I will be back on later.
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Post Post #61 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:19 am

Post by singersigner »

Vote Count 1.3

cavjj (0):
DarkClaymore (0):
Honest Abel (3): I Am Innocent, Dark Claymore, BBmolla
whilst (0):
dicknose (0):
BBmolla (2): Scumhunter, Honest Abel
I Am Innocent (0):
Scumhunter (0):
Wickedestjr (0):

Not Voting (0): whilst, dicknose, Wickedestjr, cavjj

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Mod Notes:

Deadline is August 17th, 2011 3pm PST.
whilst wrote:
A question about the game]Are we expected to tally the vote counts by ourselves? Or will the moderator do this for us?
As stated in the ruleset:
Mod wrote:2. Vote counts will be posted once per page or once per day, whichever is less.
Which is qualified by this:
Mod wrote:4. The Mod may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently.
Hope that answers your question. : )
Last edited by singersigner on Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #62 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:25 am

Post by cavjj »

I don't think BBmolla is self voting singer.
Balls, lol.



Sorry that was as gentle a way of putting it as I could think of :)
That was lovely, thank you. :P
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Post Post #63 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:34 am

Post by Scumhunter »

Wickedestjr wrote:
You don't like the RVS and we seem to have a serious discussion going on, so why not comment on or contribute to that discussion? Do you suspect BBmolla or Honest Abel for their questions?......
Personally, I don't have any issue with any of the questions asked thus far. In fact, I have my own question to ask everyone. @Everyone- Did you want to be mafia or town this game? Which allignment would you have liked to receive the most?


First of all can someone please unvote Honest Abel. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to be at L-1 this early. There are other ways to pressure people. One of these days I'm going to be scum have a cop-read on someone who is at L-1 and hammer away to waste a ML and kill a pr d1. I mean do the people voting Abel "actually" want a lynch to go through right now? No. Of course you don't. So why are you voting him to L-1? It's obviously for "pressure" but it seems an unnecessary step and can only lead to a sad outcome if a true newbie/scum hammers.

For those of you saying, oh no one is newbie enough to hammer here (yes you are probably right, but is it really worth the risk, a newbie town hammering another town would cost us 2 ML!)

@wickedest, no of course I don't suspect BBmolla or HonestAbel for their questions. Do you?
@Abel, RQS questions can actually be useful specifically with a group like us who don't have a lot of experience playing with each other. It can help us learn how much experience we each have at playing mafia-related games, plus the game is a social experience you know. It is ok to be a little off-topic sometimes and get to know the people you are playing with it. Makes the game more enjoyable imo.
@cavjj, Yes, you could call my usual behavior during RVS/early day 1 lurking. I will become very engaged in the game as we progress here. I generally like to avoid rage-inducing arguments over null-tells which is what a lot of RVS turns into.

Someone asked which alignment we prefer, I very much prefer being town. I hate being scum. I was feeling that for sure I would get scum after getting town pr in the first go-round of this game but I'm happy to confirm I am in fact town this game. Take that for what its worth. LoL.
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Post Post #64 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:45 am

Post by Scumhunter »

Honest Abel wrote:I also request that before someone hammers me, we each share our reads and thoughts on every other player before the Day phase ends. This will be helpful to look back on in subsequent days.

Also, I just realized that the vote count was posted by cavjj and not the mod, and I thought one of those players withdrew their vote for me. I'll check in a second. If the vote count is wrong, I may suspect cavjj for attempting (successfully) to draw out my premature thoughts.


Did you really expect to be hammered here? Something about this post seems off to me. I feel a town-sided player would be a bit more indignant about being close to lynched for having put in as much effort as you have thus far. I feel like you
knew
you weren't actually going to be hammered on page 3 here and that you are just trying to fake keep your cool here. Why is that?
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Post Post #65 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:50 am

Post by Honest Abel »

cavjj wrote:Ok so your first post contained:
Let's skip the stupid discussion about how odds are slim I was chosen to be mafia on both rolls, shall we?


You did talk about that and said you DON'T think that that means you have less chance. I don't know whether it was just joking around while being in the random stages to create discussion, but regardless of what you thought about it, why even mention it? You are asking us, not to talk about the possibility of you being scum, that's what it boils down to.
I wasn't asking you not to talk about the possibility of me being scum. I was asking you not to talk about the
reduced
possibility of me being scum. Because the possibility isn't reduced. Only two people made a point about it in spite of me: dicknose, and, knowing him, I believe he was simply pulling my leg; and you, who QFT'd his post.

Your next paragraph makes very little sense to me, so excuse me for breaking it up part by part:
cavjj wrote:They were admittedly pros and cons of trying to force your hand.As you said yourself, putting scum under pressure is one of the best strategies available citing a game where not once did you actually have to lie.
So the pro was to pressure me, and the con was to make me share premature thoughts? I don't know if "forcing my hand" actually pressured me to do something, since I said upfront that I would share my premature thoughts if put at L-1 (I think it's necessary to put everything on the table while I still have a chance to contribute). That's just doing what I want to do on my terms, so you didn't actually add any pressure. It is good that you are conversing with me, though.
If you are scum, the way I see it, you've given people on here an oppertunity (which I took) to put yourself under pressure.
I do invite any pressure that anyone wants to put on me. I don't care how sloppy the pressure makes me, because I have nothing to hide or lie about.
I was looking for a slip to be honest.
And what did you find?
I would rather go for an early successful scum lynch early on through gut instinct and risk losing a VT if that means that we have one less scum embedding themselves into the game, gathering... "supporters" (for want of a better word)
This is something I often think about, too. Because the more someone talks, the more explaining and defending that person can do. I don't know about anyone else, but I am usually pretty sympathetic in those situations and am easy swayed, or at least made to hesitate, by explanations. So sometimes, an early scum read is a good thing to lynch on, but it takes a lot of the detective work out of the game.

The other reason, I wanted to press you and why I'm suspicious is your treatment of the random questions at the start of the game. You aren't bothered about who has played where or how many times and whatever else, but some people are. At least one person is, they asked the question. The way I look at it; if every question, no matter how mundane, who it was asked by (and what role that person I think might have) was answered, we gain more information and it makes it easier to find who is a VT and who isn't. If I think you are a scum and you ask a question, I will still want to see it answered by the group/person you asked it to. I don't think I'll be alone with that stance.
I admitted as much in my first criticism of it; other may find it useful, but I don't particularly find those questions interesting or useful to me. I understand the social aspect. It was merely a preamble to asking my own question.
But, you wanted to get right down to the thick of it. I actually thought in my head, reading the post "He's looking for PR's". Are you looking for PR's to save yourself? Or because you are Scum?
I'm looking for power roles? What does my question have to do with power roles? I'm neither scum nor trying to save myself. I'm trying to help town win the game. In other words, lynch me if you want, but give me an opportunity to leave what I think is an adequate amount of good info to be used later in the game.
Apologies for leaving at this point but I will be back on later.
No need to apologize; thanks for unvoting and talking to me.
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Post Post #66 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:58 am

Post by Honest Abel »

Scumhunter wrote:Did you really expect to be hammered here? Something about this post seems off to me. I feel a town-sided player would be a bit more indignant about being close to lynched for having put in as much effort as you have thus far.
I wasn't expecting to be hammered; I was merely saying what needed to be said in case someone suddenly showed up with the intent to hammer (and lacking the intent to inform me/anyone first). It takes quite a lot to get me indignant or flustered, and it's not going to happen just from adding votes on my name or bringing me to L-1. I'm merely sticking to the town agenda and making what I think are helpful posts as long as I'm alive.
Scumhunter wrote:I feel like you
knew
you weren't actually going to be hammered on page 3 here and that you are just trying to fake keep your cool here. Why is that?
Are you asking me why you feel the way you do? Are you asking me how I knew I wasn't going to be hammered? Are you asking me whether I'm pretending to keep my cool or not? Please clarify.
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Post Post #67 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:59 am

Post by Honest Abel »

EbWoDP:
Scumhunter wrote:Did you really expect to be hammered here? Something about this post seems off to me. I feel a town-sided player would be a bit more indignant about being close to lynched for having put in as much effort as you have thus far.
I wasn't expecting to be hammered; I was merely saying what needed to be said in case someone suddenly showed up with the intent to hammer (and lacking the intent to inform me/anyone first). It takes quite a lot to get me indignant or flustered, and it's not going to happen just from adding votes on my name or bringing me to L-1. I'm merely sticking to the town agenda and making what I think are helpful posts as long as I'm alive.
Scumhunter wrote:I feel like you
knew
you weren't actually going to be hammered on page 3 here and that you are just trying to fake keep your cool here. Why is that?
Are you asking me why you feel the way you do? Are you asking me how I knew I wasn't going to be hammered? Are you asking me whether I'm pretending to keep my cool or not? Please clarify.[/quote]
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Post Post #68 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:01 am

Post by Wickedestjr »

BBmolla
BBmolla wrote:I, like scumhunter, think RVS is a lousy tradition. Take note of the "Random Voting State."

If you think RVS is a lousy tradition, then why participate in it? Do you think there is a better way to generate a serious discussion? Also, you chose to participate, so I'll ask you again. Why did you choose to make your vote completely random rather than think of a jokey or random reason? Wouldn't scum be more likely to cast a vote that they don't have to take any responsibility for?

BBmolla wrote:I haven't voted Abel because I want to take everyone into consideration before I vote to lynch somebody. Also, I've learned that first looks can be decieving, so I want it to go on a bit more and see his and everyone elses interactions with each other before I make a vote.

Okay, but note that you can change your vote whenever you want and sometimes the best way to determine someone's allignment is by voting them.

BBmolla wrote:Also, I just want to say I'm not a fan of your question because it seems a bit rolefishy to me. I don't see what makes this game any different than other games, but I always prefer to be aligned with the town.

I don't think it is rolefishing. Rolefishing is where you ask a player questions that could reveal what their allignment is. I'm not asking you anything about your role in this game, but I'm asking if you would have preferred to be town or scum.


dicknose
dicknose wrote:i don't prefer a certain alignment as long as i get either a mafia or power role because i feel like i don't accomplish anything as vanilla town.

You'll find that in most of your games you will be a vanilla townie. I've been a vanilla townie in 50% of my completed games. If you are a vanilla townie, you can accomplish something by figuring out who the mafia are during the day which is ultimately the whole point of the game if you are town.

dicknose wrote:i have a couple questions. townies, what's your strategy? mafiosos, what is yours?

As a townie, I try to ask lots of questions and make sure to consider all the different possibilities. As scum, I try to avoid connecting myself to my scumbuddies, try to suspect who I would suspect as town, ask the questions I would ask as town, but avoid doing things that would normally attract suspicion towards me (even if they are things I do as town).


DarkClaymore
DarkClaymore wrote:However, sometimes scum tend to make longer posts and make everything look VERY reasonable. So I'll keep my current vote as Abel fits the pattern.

Can you elaborate on this, please?

DarkClaymore wrote:Many said they would have killed one of the more experienced players, but that's wine tbh. Think about it.
Most people here believe that one of the experienced players would be killed. So N0 passes and a newbie is killed. What would you think? Would you think that means all the experienced players are scum?

This can be a pretty good strategy to easily take out two or more townies. Kill a newbie at night and make the experienced ones suspicious so it'll be easier to kill them during the day.

As this is how I see it, I can't be sure who I would have killed. I believe that if the IC player were part of the mafia, I would have killed a newbie. People would expect the IC to be killed above anyone else. If a SE player is killed, they'd conclude the IC is most likely scum. Thus killing a newbie will be the right move as it'll make both the SE and IC players suspicious.

I believe in any other case I would have killed a IC as expected from me . Or perhaps a SE in order to make the IC a lynchbait due to reason stated above. But then again, I could always kill a newbie in order to make them all suspicious. So I think this is wine and there's no definite answer. Not for me at least.

For the record, if I was mafia and had a kill night 0, I would have killed I Am Innocent and used the argument that the newbies would have wanted to keep me around for at least a day to help guide them.


cavjj, whilst, and Scumhunter
cavjj wrote:As a townie, for me it's a lynch all liars policy.

How would you catch somebody in a lie? And how would you find scum if you couldn't catch somebody in a lie?

[quote="whilst']Are we expected to tally the vote counts by ourselves? Or will the moderator do this for us?[/quote]
In nearly all of the mafia games you play here on mafiascum, including this one, the mod is going to post votecounts. You'll notice that they posted one yesterday. :)

Scumhunter wrote:@wickedest, no of course I don't suspect BBmolla or HonestAbel for their questions. Do you?

Nope.


Honest Abel, BBmolla, and cavjj all look like town at the moment, but whilst looks like mafia.
Vote: whilst
I agree with Honest Abel's point against him in his post 56. It looks like he's been playing the people pleaser and it seems like he's trying to avoid attracting any attention or suspicion. Furthermore, he hasn't taken any real stances yet in the game, but also hasn't been doing anything to obtain reads, either.
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Post Post #69 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:54 am

Post by Bricktoes »

having played with abel before and read his game on here, i don't find him exceptionally suspicious at this point. especially when a decent chunk of that comes from misreadings of his first post and speculation, which may be deliberately off or not. that said, i'm looking at whilst and cavjj the most at the moment. whilst for reasons already specified and cavjj for going after abel for the exact opposite of what abel said.

i'll try and go into detail tonight. i've been on my phone so far. i'll also answer any questions i haven't answered, including my own. i hope everyone answers their own questions too at some point. i'd also like more questions in general asked, but i suppose that can take some time.
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Post Post #70 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:05 am

Post by BBmolla »

Hm.

While Abel's case is wrong of course, it's a good case. His scumhunting is well done, and his response to the L-1 was good imo. He's reading null as opposed to null scum, I'll take this off.

UNVOTE: Honest Abel

Incoming crap about sheeping or whatever. It sucks when the other town shares your opinion before you even read theirs.

Would you like me to try to argue the points or shall we avoid another arguement?
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Post Post #71 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:11 am

Post by DarkClaymore »

Wickedestjr wrote:
DarkClaymore wrote:However, sometimes scum tend to make longer posts and make everything look VERY reasonable. So I'll keep my current vote as Abel fits the pattern.

Can you elaborate on this, please?


I have seen not once how a scum who sees that people vote him/her starts writing very long replies with various reasons and deep explanations. I suppose this is their way to gain the favor of others and show that not only they contribute a lot, but also good thinkers. I'll never forget how I let one like this to slip away in one of the games I played elsewhere.
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Post Post #72 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:16 am

Post by Honest Abel »

singersigner wrote:
August 17th, 2011 3pm PST
It's actually Daylight Savings Time in the United States, so that should read PDT for accuracy.

The accuracy comes in looking at the linked timer I've provided for you. Most mods aren't that accommodating. ;)
Last edited by singersigner on Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #73 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:27 am

Post by Honest Abel »

DarkClaymore wrote:I have seen not once how a scum who sees that people vote him/her starts writing very long replies with various reasons and deep explanations. I suppose this is their way to gain the favor of others and show that not only they contribute a lot, but also good thinkers. I'll never forget how I let one like this to slip away in one of the games I played elsewhere.
Doesn't your long-winded response to my question also fit that description? Why put so much effort into answering a question that you yourself described as "rather pointless"? You're showing us that you are a good thinker, but you did it by applying your analytic skills to a hypothetical situation rather than something that has a real bearing on the present game.

Of course, you didn't have any votes on you, so you'd say that there was no pressure to avert. But seeing as you're so aware of the premise, your early post could have been a preemptive defense.
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Post Post #74 (ISO) » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:40 am

Post by Honest Abel »

I'm not trying to argue that DarkClaymore is actually acting scummy, because I think a town player could have had reasons to do what we're talking about, too. I'm just pointing out that he's guilty of possibly a worse thing than what he believes I've done; if he's town, that should clue him into the idea that townies can/should want to appear town.

When you analyze a behavior or attitude, you can't just ask yourself whether or not scum would act or feel a certain way. You have to also consider whether or not townies would act or feel a certain way. There are things that both townies and scum would possibly do, even though the reasons are different. True scumminess is discovered when you find an action that scum would do but townies wouldn't do, and there should be some kind of causally-connected justification for that action.
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