Mini 1193: Hacker's Panic mafia. (Game Over)

[CooLskins]

fail, quote tags are fail.

I will get to xvarts post later today, when I have more time.

Also Some time today I will arse bub into posting about fitz.

~CooLDoG

[Parama]

what the hell this isn't a large theme guys stop wall-o-text warring.

[havingfitz]

Coolskins...you guys are the worst hydra I ever ever played with. You don't seem to agree with each other and you keep making excuses based on the other's play. If I didn't think xvart was scum you would be my top suspect. The only reason I don't atm is today's interactions with xvart and your D3 crusade against Zodiark.

[imaginality]

On this:

As for the coolskins/don thing, the megaposts made my feeble mind ache and I had to have a lie down. But I think don’s theory was messy, 2 theories kind of mashed together. And today don thinks that his statistical improbability is enough to not only cancel his vote and theory of D3, but to actually think parama is town. Bit weird.

The 'tracker wouldn't have tracked two scum in two nights' logic is totally invalid: The N2 results are independent of the N1 results. You can't say, "because he tracked scum N2 he's less likely to have tracked scum N1". That's logically equivalent to saying during D2, "if you track scum N2, then whoever you tracked last night is less likely to be scum," which is clearly nonsense.

If you flip two coins, before you look at them, there's only a 1/4 chance of both being heads. But if your second flip is heads, that doesn't change the fact your first flip has 1/2 chance of being heads. Same deal here. The Parama-track result gives some reason t think he's town, but no-one should be using the fact bobsnox tracked Zodiark as additional reason for Parama-town.

--
@deselby (and others): what are your thoughts about the 'don_johnson-scum would have killed Parama/bob rather than mention they think there's a PR-connection between the two to xvart in the neighbour thread' point? Do you think he did that to wifom xvart, or do you think it's a point in favour of him being town but outweighed by the other points against him?

--

Also, on reading AntiHero and havingfitz's interactions with Zodiark, I'm having doubts about my earlier read on them. I think my points against them are reasonable, and the L-1 vote on Beck is clearly worse than the xvart's on the hrezs wagon. But, looking more at AH and havingfitz's interactions with Zodiark as per havingfitz's request, I see AntiHero was first to point out Zodiark's contradiction, which led to the wagon on him. But, if this was bussing, agreed in advance, then havingfitz would have stuck with AntiHero's scum-read on Zodiark when he replaced in, rather than weakening.

Hmm. I think I might have tunnelled too hard on kondi because of my anger about the D1 let's-lynch-the-claimed-vig epic fail (and yes it was, even if he wouldn't play ball and let his kill be directed). I also had a scum read on Celeboki right up until he flipped town.

--

@havingfitz: xvart strikes me as genuine scumhunting in that his uncertainty and attempts to assess people's alignment feel genuine to me. The results wagonwise haven't been good but that's not what my read was based on. It's more that he looks very much like town working from a position of ignorance rather than scum acting from more complete knowledge.

--

Where does all this leave me?

Vote: CooLskins

Partly PoE because I don't think either neighbour is scum, and havingfitz's weakening of his slot's scum read on Zodiark doesn't fit with bussing, so I've softened on him. Looking more at CooLskins, these points look good reasons to vote him:

* the much-discussed change of read on Zodiark
* 310 - regards don's role pm discussion (245,254) as a strong town read, then drops this point completely when he attacks him later
* 321 - trying to defend his read as 'no worse than' than Zodiark's contradiction
* 416 - listing Zodiark in his number 2 scum spot while supporting the lynch of a townie
* 518 - the 'seriously, why hasn't [fitz] been lynched yet' sounds off, gut-wise
* 557 - accusing xvart of chainsaw-defending don_johnson by attacking CooLskins
* bonus: pretty sure only one of CooLskins and don_johnson is scum based on the way they've been arguing, so it makes sense to lynch one of the two, and CooLskins looks scummier to me

[Humble Poirot]

Those in danger of being exposed #20:

don_johnson (2)

- Parama, CooLskins,

xvart (1)

- havingfitz,

CooLskins (3)

- xvart, don_johnson, imaginality,

Not Voting (1)

- deselby,

With 7 Alive it takes 4 to lynch.

[xvart]

imag...what part of xvart's "genuine" scum-hunting do you like? Considering he has been on both mislynches and was off the popular Zodiark wagon (ie. he's got it wrong [or right if I am correct] all three votes).

This is a pretty terrible case you are making. You say nothing of my motive for being on or off those wagons which is the important part. And you don't even consider whether or not I was willing to lynch Beck based on his claim since I wasn't able to post between his claim and him being hammered, which makes me think you aren't even evaluating motives, just outcomes.

@don, I am concerned about your “let’s not lynch neighbours” proposal. As I said earlier, it only makes any sense if you are town, kind of a pointless in this game. It seems that you were just trying to frighten town into not lynching a neighbour (which would probably be you). For me it is the scummiest post of D4 so far.

Why is this only directed at don? I also said as much when I was addressing Parama because IF both neighbors are town and we just go the route of lynch the neighbors we lose.

@cooldog - not sure what you are getting at here:

Before I fully catch up I wanted to say that the scum killing bob was a big mistake. Whoever the scum were they really misjudged that kill. They had two to three people saying that for some reason bob was scum, when it was obvious that he was town. I'm going to look back and see who pushed the bob wagon.

Commenting on how terrible the night kill is classic scum misdirection. Saying "what a stupid kill" with the implication that he would not have made that kill and therefore isn't scum. Furthermore, the fact that CooLskins says that bob was obvious town is a good enough motive for the kill, coupled with bob being a tracker seems like a good reason to kill from his eyes. This whole statement is just a justification for fake hunting the people who were suspicious of bob.

Coolskins...you guys are the worst hydra I ever ever played with. You don't seem to agree with each other and you keep making excuses based on the other's play. If I didn't think xvart was scum you would be my top suspect. The only reason I don't atm is today's interactions with xvart and your D3 crusade against Zodiark.

Regarding the "D3 crusade against Zodiark" you have to keep in mind the context. As scum, CooLskins had no choice but to go on that crusade because they were called out on their contradictory read already, so not being gung ho about it at that time would be even scummier. They use the classic "why isn't Zodiark dead yet?" and "Zodiark dies today" rhetoric that makes it seem like that are Zodiark or bust but don't actively try and get him lynched (other than reposting the same thing they posted the day before).

Parama - why aren't you voting CooLskins, the person that was D1 confirmed scum? It appears that despite the actions outside of their control D1 that made them scum it would be an even better lynch based on their actions and behaviors being indicative of scum and therefore an obvious lynch in your eyes.

[Parama]

LEMME ADD TO THAT THERE WALL OF TEXT WAR OLOLOLOLOL
IT'S GODDAMN ISO TIME. THIS POST IS DJ-ISO.

beck wagon is good. he has no sense of humor.

"Excuse me while I pay lip service to a mislynch wagon without actually bringing up any points or voting. I can just claim this post was a joke sort of thing and it's all good, but it will likely get more people voting Beck"

vote: celebloki

Stupid hammer was stupid.

Hmm... I remember another play who was all "lynch Celebloki his hammer was bad." Zodiark, I think his name was.
Hmm... and Celebloki flipped town... and Zodiark flipped scum... HMMM.

what waffle? i wasn't even around when the lynch was carried through. i never voted beck, and i never backed off on my stance that the wagon was good(cause beck was quicklynched.) my stance can hardly be described as a waffle. i demand you choose better verbage.

Oh, so you really weren't making that comment in jest. Well, I'm glad you didn't jump on a wagon that you thought was good.

C'est moi? Xvart is my neighbor btw. So im a wee bit shocked by the accusation.

"Ah hell, I'm screwed... BUT WAIT! WHAT IF I CLAIM?"
Though in all honestly this is more of a slight towntell than anything because the mafia already knew there was a neighborhood if one of the neighbors were scum, and scum outing their neighbor buddy would basically give town a confirmed townie if the scum got lynched anyways. Though I think this point was brought up before and I probably just missed it <_<
uote="don_johnson"]All of my posts are "pro-town", depending on your definition. I have barely participated in this game so far. we just passed 200 posts. Thats not very long, especially to already be in day 2. Are you going to let me respond to xvart when I can, or are you going to continue to bash me while im posting from my phone?[/quote]
"Excuse me while I intentionally dodge the question with clever wordplay."

i don't recall you tieing me to beck, at all. i really wasn't paying much attention through day 1 and my support for the beck wagon was because "he had no sense of humor." in my experience, scum often lack a sense of humor when they are wagoned relentlessly. having not been paying too much attention, however, i wasn't ready to vote. regardless of scum or town, the beck wagon looked like it was going to move and movement produces content which is good for town. i didn't expect a lynch to go through so quick and i don't think any of the players who were not present can hold any of the responsibility for that. the wagon was bad.

1. "lack of a sense of humor" isn't a scumtell
2. link me some games?
3. so you knew enough to know that there was a wagon on Beck, and that he lacked a sense of humor, one of your "scumtells", yet you "weren't paying enough attention" to justify voting him? BS.

If you are not going to defend the hammer then

you cant fault people for voting you because of it

. Calling my play "distancing" is a bit of a stretch seeing as how you quick hammered a claimed power role before I had a chance to contribute.

WARNING WARNING I SPY A SOFT DEFENSE OF ZODIARK HERE
since they were the only two voting Celebloki at the time.

unvote

celbloks answer is adequate for now. for someone so seemingly eager to talk to me in the qt, xvart sure is taking his sweet time in responding to my response. didn't have a chance to catch up yet, but i will get to it asap.

Literally NOTHING changed between this post and DJ's last - Celebloki still didn't try to defend his hammer, which is the reason DJ called him out in the first place.
Frankly, Celebloki's response IS pro-town, but for another reason - it's not that he's doesn't want to defend his hammer, but that he's willing to admit that he can't defend it. Scum make up the excuse because if they don't make an excuse then they think they'll be lynched for it. I'm not sure if DJ picked up on this or not, but "his post was adequate" implies that Cele met the criteria DJ was looking for, even though it's obvious that Cele intentionally refused to meet this criteria.
Sorry if that sounds horribly convoluted, I'm not in a wordsmith-type mood today it seems.

Why? Bloks post was ok. Leaving my vote on accomplishes nothing.

And this post is basically the same thing. Why was his post OK? Because DJ knows Celebloki is town and doesn't need an excuse beyond that? Hmmph.

To whose "legitimate" requests are you referring? Skins? I think I had what, 5 posts on day 1? I didnt quicklynch anyone and end the day early.

This is the goddamn nail in the coffin IMO. "Well EXCUSE MEEEE, PRINCESS, but

I

didn't vote on the quicklynch wagon, even though I

DID

pay lip service to it, calling it a good wagon, making me at least partly responsible for the lynch even if I didn't take part in it."
Yeah, no, YOU DON'T GET THAT EXCUSE, PAL.

when i received my pm i opened it, saw i was neighbors with xvart and then went to click on the link to the qt. as i scrolled over it, i notice it said it was a link to the scum qt. i immediately pm'd the mod to say "hey, am i scum? or if not, do you realize you sent me a link to the wrong qt.(paraphrased)" mod pm'd me back and said, "no, you are town and the qt is not a mistake, i just forgot to change the label." so i clicked on the link and day had already started. i ask if yours had the same mistake and you say no. but i'm not going to pm hunt you as i think its a bad idea, and if you are town it could end up in two mislynches. you seem to be looking at events objectively.

Eh... technically this means there's at least one difference between the two role PMs besides the rolename... but the other part says that "well why the hell would DJ bring this up if he was scum and knew xvart wouldn't have the same PM as him?"
But meh, mod WIFOM stuff and I dunno. I'm actually unsure what to make of this :/ This is turning out to be a more confusing read than I expected.

if xvart is town, the speculation would be disastrous for town and take us away from traditional scumhunting. i'd like to avoid that at this point.

Also can be read as "If xvart is town, and we lynch him, then I'm screwed because it basically confirms me as scum since our role PM are different to at least some extent." But AGAIN, I also don't know why don would've brought this up as scum, unless he was trying to get xvart lynched and that plan backfired on him or something. I'm again really confused. I don't like this post at all - it reads as scum to me - but the basis of this whole series of shenanigans is a complete nulltell to me :/

unvote, vote bobsnox

This isnt fitting together at all. I could see bob/parama bussing zodiark possibly, buy xvart makes good points. Bob has not been protown.

snox is reading town today as well as xvart.

Okay, so DJ, I want a complete list of everything that made you change your mind on bobsnox. IN QUOTES-FROM-YOUR-ISO-ONLY form. Because I don't see it - D2, you say "bobsnox town" and then D3 you're "bobsnox isn't confirmed and Parama's defending him also bobsnox hasn't been playing pro-town" and it's more the "bobsnox hasn't been playing pro-town" part that irks me because you said the opposite on the previous day but "xvart said it and I know he's town so now I should change my mind too" seems like the scum train of thought DJ was having here.

parama, i don't think you're reading correctly. i thought i clearly stated that your actions were scummy independent of bobs alignment, not the other way around. the fact that you claim to have picked up his softclaim(no way in hell you interpreted him as "tracker", so you had to think he was most likely cop), and when he claimed a much less reliable role, you haven't questioned it one bit. thats odd to me.

Sorry, but no. In ISO #42, pretty much everything was contingent on me being scum with bobsnox, and the things that were "scummy" were all association tells, again linked to bobsnox. Before that post, you had said NOTHING about me in your ISO - and yes, I went and ctrl+f'ed to check. So, APPARENTLY, I'm linked to bobsnox and scum on his scumflip, except I'm also the better lynch because "well bobsnox claimed tracker and confirmed parama as VT, so let's lynch the VT first."
Oh, and for posterity's sake: tracker is a harder role to claim as scum than cop is. Oh wait, looks like I already said that.

parama: i don't think there is a scum neighbor. xvart is posting pretty protown.

You don't think there's a scum neighbor because you are the scum neighbor and by emphasizing that you think your neighbor is town you're trying to draw attention away from the neighborhood and decrease the likelihood of you getting lynched. Well that plan failed. I never did say anything about xvart being scum, by the way.

I think I said it pretty well already, but an additional point of note: DJ never explicitly says he's town here, he just makes it "assumed" and then goes on to defend his neighbor, completely missing the point of my argument - I said "DJ is the scum neighbor" and DJ responds with "no, I don't think xvart is scum."
It's a total non-sequitur, right? He's intentionally dodging my accusation.

skins: thanks for the repost, the case isn't terrible and i'm willing to hammer him. the fact is, if i am wrong about parama/bob, then zod could very well be scum, my gut just says hes town whose not good at writing. but whatever. i think we're better off letting imaginality in here before we end the day. i still don't like des putting zod to L-1. parama and bob are in no real danger of being lynched today, so his excuse reads like, well, an excuse. of all the votes on zod, thats the one that looks lilke a bus to me. but whatever.

pfffhahahaha "so yeah I could be wrong about the bobsnox/parama thing, and also since Zod looks like he's going to be lynched, I think it's time for some hardcore backpedaling."

most of his early posts were quote walls with things like "wheeeee" written in between.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Please compile a case so as I have something to respond to. "points from yesterday" doesnt give me much. Ill post more from home. I still think my neighbor is town, and odds put parama as town, but I cant post a lot from my phone. So yeah.

sup here's your case
also "lol I claimed to have legitimate things that say parama is scum outside of his relation to bobsnox, but lemme throw those away because of odds." Tell me that's a town mindset, and I will whack you with a totem pole.

i have already stated i think parama is town and i'll explain why a bit later. hint: its not because of his shit ass posting.

des is probably my top suspect today. his vote at L-1 was terrible. i'll dissect it in another post.

vote: deselby

vote: celebloki

Stupid hammer was stupid.

Celebloki, Town Jailkeeper, was killed night 2.

lalalalala I can't hear you over the sound of scummy

he has most likely already won the game

I agree, this game's already won. I've nailed one scum, just have to lynch them now, and VCA will completely demolish the other scum, because this entire game has been a war of the wagons.

lynchpool should be fitz, imag, deselby in no particular order yet. i believe both scum(assuming statistic regularity) are in that pool of three.

noting this for future reference, because I noticed you're not voting for one of these three in the most recent votecount.

unvote

in the meantime.

Again, not explaining what changed, if anything did actually change. Good job, keep that consistency up.

Now lets get on to don's shit posting:

ad hom

.

i have already stated i think parama is town and i'll explain why a bit later. hint: its not because of his shit ass posting.

KEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKE
AD
HOM
So don. why are you voting out of your 3-man lynchpool that contains all the scum?

I stopped reading huge walls about halfway through or earlier so here you go.
Despite the weird neighbor shenanigans, pretty much everything in don's posting points to him being scum. There's that *small* doubt due to the aforementioned shenanigans, but it's not major enough for me to reconsider.
I may ISOskim CooLskins to see what all the fuss is about, but DJ's going to flip scum and it seems like skimming CooLkins would just be wasted effort.
Gotta look for that buddy... again, I might VCA it up to eliminate some possible scumbuddies. I might just post VCA colors up to this point in the next post and then if I get killed overnight (which there's a pretty big chance of, seeing as I'm tracker-semicleared and also about to get scum lynched for the second day in a row) people can finish up the colors for me.
Though honestly it's not that hard - just mass-replacing in MS word.

[Parama]

xvart: because I throw the word "confirmed" around like everyone else throws the word "WIFOM" around
I will go look at CooLskins like I said but I don't expect any shocking revelations. Note that there's a huge difference between the start of D2 and halfway through D4 <_<.

[xvart]

Note that there's a huge difference between the start of D2 and halfway through D4 <_<.

Yes, there is; and that difference is CooLskins has been uniquely scummier since the start of D2, which is my point.

[havingfitz]

imag...what part of xvart's "genuine" scum-hunting do you like? Considering he has been on both mislynches and was off the popular Zodiark wagon (ie. he's got it wrong [or right if I am correct] all three votes).

This is a pretty terrible case you are making. You say nothing of my motive for being on or off those wagons which is the important part. And you don't even consider whether or not I was willing to lynch Beck based on his claim since I wasn't able to post between his claim and him being hammered, which makes me think you aren't even evaluating motives, just outcomes.

It's only terrible if you are town. Your motive for being on the Beck wagon was extremely weak with no previous suspicions directed at him. Your L-1 vote on Hrez (for a case made by don) came with no rationale of your own or any previous mention of Hrez. You are just interested in being on the mislynch. As for not being around to post between Beck's claim and his hammer...what does that matter? It didn't stop you from placing and maintaining your vote on bobsnox when he was outted/claimed tracker. This is a contradiction on your part. You make it seem like you would have removed the vote on Back if you had been around after he had claimed but you fail to do the same thing after bobsnox's claim and instead stay on his wagon while remaining off the equally prominent (and accurate) Zodiark wagon.

Coolskins...you guys are the worst hydra I ever ever played with. You don't seem to agree with each other and you keep making excuses based on the other's play. If I didn't think xvart was scum you would be my top suspect. The only reason I don't atm is today's interactions with xvart and your D3 crusade against Zodiark.

Regarding the "D3 crusade against Zodiark" you have to keep in mind the context. As scum, CooLskins had no choice but to go on that crusade because they were called out on their contradictory read already, so not being gung ho about it at that time would be even scummier. They use the classic "why isn't Zodiark dead yet?" and "Zodiark dies today" rhetoric that makes it seem like that are Zodiark or bust but don't actively try and get him lynched (other than reposting the same thing they posted the day before).

I've only been in one game with CoolDog before and he came across as a major Vi IMO...the fact he did not suspect Zodiark prior to Bub placing their Zodiark vote on D2 means little to me. The fact is...they could have easily put bobsnox (who came across as scummy to me prior to his claim) at L-1 without bringing more support to a scumbuddie's wagon. And then to immediately jump on the Zodiark wagon again on D3 just seems like excessive and unneccesary bussing.

tl:dr;

Despite Coolskins' crap play I am inclined to think he is town. Despite xvart's very well spoken and rational play...you can not ignore his actions which have been completely in line with benefitting scum. Three days worth of vote outcomes point a VCA straight your way.

[havingfitz]

BTW...in case it has gone unnoticed,

Coolskins is at L-1

.

[Parama]

fitz you're voting the wrong neighbor.

[havingfitz]

fitz you're voting the wrong neighbor.

Why? Why is xvart town? Why are the points I bring up above not valid? Why is don scum? I will ISO him and see what the fuss is about but iirc during my catchup read I did not come away with the sense he was scum.

FMPOV, if xvart is town then that means you or Coolskins are scum. Why? Because there is no way in hell that there were no scum on Beck's seven person mislynch and I know I am not scum, which means you, Coolskins, or xvart are scum. And thats only giving scum credit for ONE scum vote on the D1 mislynch. Granted...beck's play was abrasive and he asked for a lynch so there may very well be only one scum on his wagon since town were probably happy to get rid of him.

If you are town and you honestly think xvart is town, then you should be voting me or Coolskins. That said...I'm not scum and I'm not convinced Coolskins is. Lets have

your

analysis of the D1 mislynch.

[Parama]

xvart is town because DJ is scum. Why the hell would that be any different?
Also, you're asking me why don is scum? Did you even look at my most recent wall-of-text? I MEAN SERIOUSLY.

[havingfitz]

Fine...based primarily on his vote outside of his three person lynch pool I'll accept his suspicion. If he flips scum neighbor I'll apologize to confirmed town xvart be he dead or alive. don scum will point to dselby IMO. don town should focus attention on xvart.

VOTE: don_johnson

[xvart]

It's only terrible if you are town. Your motive for being on the Beck wagon was extremely weak with no previous suspicions directed at him. Your L-1 vote on Hrez (for a case made by don) came with no rationale of your own or any previous mention of Hrez. You are just interested in being on the mislynch.

Oh good. So there was more thought to your vote than just "being on both mislynches and off the scum lynch". Well there is nothing much I can say in defense of your suspicions except for the reason I voted Beck is similar in nature to other D1 votes I place, but that is as scum or town so no alignment indication there. I poke and prod during D1 unless something is obviously scum motivated from my point of view. As for Hzres, I thought my motivation was pretty clear. I found Zodiark scummy but don's logic was sound by the connection to each other.

As for not being around to post between Beck's claim and his hammer...what does that matter? It didn't stop you from placing and maintaining your vote on bobsnox when he was outted/claimed tracker. This is a contradiction on your part. You make it seem like you would have removed the vote on Back if you had been around after he had claimed but you fail to do the same thing after bobsnox's claim and instead stay on his wagon while remaining off the equally prominent (and accurate) Zodiark wagon.

There is a world of difference between voting someone who is a claimed vig and someone who is a claimed tracker, and to suggest otherwise is absurd. Not only is tracker much more likely to be a scum role compared to a vig; but vig is marginally testable. AND, most importantly, was the behavior bobnox surrounding his claim and clearing/semi-clearing people based on his no results. We saw how well that worked with Zodiark being cleared/semi-cleared so my suspicion was sound.

[Twistedspoon]

so who's nom'ing us for a best town scummy after this perfect win?

[Parama]

TWISTED WHO IS YOUR ALT

[don_johnson]

LEMME ADD TO THAT THERE WALL OF TEXT WAR OLOLOLOLOL
IT'S GODDAMN ISO TIME. THIS POST IS DJ-ISO.

beck wagon is good. he has no sense of humor.

"Excuse me while I pay lip service to a mislynch wagon without actually bringing up any points or voting. I can just claim this post was a joke sort of thing and it's all good, but it will likely get more people voting Beck"

i was not part of the quick lynch on a town power role. my comment came well before the scumminess occurred.

vote: celebloki

Stupid hammer was stupid.

Hmm... I remember another play who was all "lynch Celebloki his hammer was bad." Zodiark, I think his name was.
Hmm... and Celebloki flipped town... and Zodiark flipped scum... HMMM.

his hammer was bad. he hammered a claimed power role early. this also fits with why i was sympathetic to the zodiark "contradiction".

what waffle? i wasn't even around when the lynch was carried through. i never voted beck, and i never backed off on my stance that the wagon was good(cause beck was quicklynched.) my stance can hardly be described as a waffle. i demand you choose better verbage.

Oh, so you really weren't making that comment in jest. Well, I'm glad you didn't jump on a wagon that you thought was good.

see, i can do it to. silly parama, the beck wagon was good when i said it was good. later, it turned ugly. not my fault. last i heard, not mislynching townies is a town tell.

C'est moi? Xvart is my neighbor btw. So im a wee bit shocked by the accusation.

"Ah hell, I'm screwed... BUT WAIT! WHAT IF I CLAIM?"
Though in all honestly this is more of a slight towntell than anything because the mafia already knew there was a neighborhood if one of the neighbors were scum, and scum outing their neighbor buddy would basically give town a confirmed townie if the scum got lynched anyways. Though I think this point was brought up before and I probably just missed it <_<

you did.

All of my posts are "pro-town", depending on your definition. I have barely participated in this game so far. we just passed 200 posts. Thats not very long, especially to already be in day 2. Are you going to let me respond to xvart when I can, or are you going to continue to bash me while im posting from my phone?

"Excuse me while I intentionally dodge the question with clever wordplay."

i didn't dodge the question. the question was stupid. you even said so yourself.

i don't recall you tieing me to beck, at all. i really wasn't paying much attention through day 1 and my support for the beck wagon was because "he had no sense of humor." in my experience, scum often lack a sense of humor when they are wagoned relentlessly. having not been paying too much attention, however, i wasn't ready to vote. regardless of scum or town, the beck wagon looked like it was going to move and movement produces content which is good for town. i didn't expect a lynch to go through so quick and i don't think any of the players who were not present can hold any of the responsibility for that. the wagon was bad.

1. "lack of a sense of humor" isn't a scumtell
2. link me some games?
3. so you knew enough to know that there was a wagon on Beck, and that he lacked a sense of humor, one of your "scumtells", yet you "weren't paying enough attention" to justify voting him? BS.

1. we disagree.
2. no. that's mildly retarded. if you want to sift through my games, feel free. i don't live in the past.
3. no bs. but i guess all i can do is say what i say. you are obviously tunneled at this point(or like, a week ago.) and yet, you're still alive even though i pointed out the blatant connection between you and bob early on. and bob lived the night after that as well. hm. if you are town, you should start using your brain.

If you are not going to defend the hammer then

you cant fault people for voting you because of it

. Calling my play "distancing" is a bit of a stretch seeing as how you quick hammered a claimed power role before I had a chance to contribute.

WARNING WARNING I SPY A SOFT DEFENSE OF ZODIARK HERE
since they were the only two voting Celebloki at the time.

?? thats a bit of a stretch. if you characterize my post as a "soft defense of zod", then you also have to characterize blok's post as the same. he couldn't defend the hammer because it was terrible.

unvote

celbloks answer is adequate for now. for someone so seemingly eager to talk to me in the qt, xvart sure is taking his sweet time in responding to my response. didn't have a chance to catch up yet, but i will get to it asap.

Literally NOTHING changed between this post and DJ's last - Celebloki still didn't try to defend his hammer, which is the reason DJ called him out in the first place.

except of course his answer. which i described as "adequate for now". so yeah, other than his response, nothing else changed.

Frankly, Celebloki's response IS pro-town

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOFLOLOLOFLOLFOLOLFOFLFOFLFOFLFLFOL!!!!

, but for another reason - it's not that he's doesn't want to defend his hammer, but that he's willing to admit that he can't defend it.

herp derp, hence the unvote by dj and dj saying "anser is adequate". seriously, did you edit this post before you hit submit?

Scum make up the excuse because if they don't make an excuse then they think they'll be lynched for it. I'm not sure if DJ picked up on this or not, but "his post was adequate" implies that Cele met the criteria DJ was looking for, even though it's obvious that Cele intentionally refused to meet this criteria.

say what now? you just said "nothing changed". then you say "except when blok responded with a pro-town response." but "dj unvoted even though nothing changed". "except that blok laid a protown response." so lets get this straight:

dj voted.
blok responded with a protown post.
dj unvoted.

kthxbye.

Why? Bloks post was ok. Leaving my vote on accomplishes nothing.

And this post is basically the same thing. Why was his post OK? Because DJ knows Celebloki is town and doesn't need an excuse beyond that? Hmmph.

or because blok's post was protown, and dj pointed that out by unvoting and saying the post was "adequate".

To whose "legitimate" requests are you referring? Skins? I think I had what, 5 posts on day 1? I didnt quicklynch anyone and end the day early.

This is the goddamn nail in the coffin IMO. "Well EXCUSE MEEEE, PRINCESS, but

I

didn't vote on the quicklynch wagon, even though I

DID

pay lip service to it, calling it a good wagon, making me at least partly responsible for the lynch even if I didn't take part in it."

uh. no. not responsible AT FUCKING ALL. I was nowhere near this thread while you idiots were lynching a claimed fucking power role. so sorry. my "beck wagon is good" came before the claim. lynching a claimed town power role without a counterclaim on day one is dumb. everyone who participated in the lynch after the claim is dumb. are we clear?

when i received my pm i opened it, saw i was neighbors with xvart and then went to click on the link to the qt. as i scrolled over it, i notice it said it was a link to the scum qt. i immediately pm'd the mod to say "hey, am i scum? or if not, do you realize you sent me a link to the wrong qt.(paraphrased)" mod pm'd me back and said, "no, you are town and the qt is not a mistake, i just forgot to change the label." so i clicked on the link and day had already started. i ask if yours had the same mistake and you say no. but i'm not going to pm hunt you as i think its a bad idea, and if you are town it could end up in two mislynches. you seem to be looking at events objectively.

Eh... technically this means there's at least one difference between the two role PMs besides the rolename... but the other part says that "well why the hell would DJ bring this up if he was scum and knew xvart wouldn't have the same PM as him?"
But meh, mod WIFOM stuff and I dunno. I'm actually unsure what to make of this :/ This is turning out to be a more confusing read than I expected.

read better.

if xvart is town, the speculation would be disastrous for town and take us away from traditional scumhunting. i'd like to avoid that at this point.

Also can be read as "If xvart is town, and we lynch him, then I'm screwed because it basically confirms me as scum since our role PM are different to at least some extent." But AGAIN, I also don't know why don would've brought this up as scum, unless he was trying to get xvart lynched and that plan backfired on him or something. I'm again really confused. I don't like this post at all - it reads as scum to me - but the basis of this whole series of shenanigans is a complete nulltell to me :/

unvote, vote bobsnox

This isnt fitting together at all. I could see bob/parama bussing zodiark possibly, buy xvart makes good points. Bob has not been protown.

snox is reading town today as well as xvart.

Okay, so DJ, I want a complete list of everything that made you change your mind on bobsnox. IN QUOTES-FROM-YOUR-ISO-ONLY form. Because I don't see it - D2, you say "bobsnox town" and then D3 you're "bobsnox isn't confirmed and Parama's defending him also bobsnox hasn't been playing pro-town" and it's more the "bobsnox hasn't been playing pro-town" part that irks me because you said the opposite on the previous day but "xvart said it and I know he's town so now I should change my mind too" seems like the scum train of thought DJ was having here.

i'd have to work on that. can't now. not sure what the issue is with changing a read. just because i voted bob doesn't mean i would have lynched him(especially since i specifically stated that i wouldn't) and my suspicion was laid out in my posts. you guys were acting like masons. that confused me. when you were both alive the next day, that made no sense to me. scum generally kill players who confirm other players and both you and bob were confirming each other. and if you recall, i believe bob helped lynch a claimed power role on day 1, so yeah, he wasn't exactly playing "pro-town". this is also pre-zodiark flip.

parama, i don't think you're reading correctly. i thought i clearly stated that your actions were scummy independent of bobs alignment, not the other way around. the fact that you claim to have picked up his softclaim(no way in hell you interpreted him as "tracker", so you had to think he was most likely cop), and when he claimed a much less reliable role, you haven't questioned it one bit. thats odd to me.

Sorry, but no. In ISO #42, pretty much everything was contingent on me being scum with bobsnox, and the things that were "scummy" were all association tells, again linked to bobsnox. Before that post, you had said NOTHING about me in your ISO - and yes, I went and ctrl+f'ed to check. So, APPARENTLY, I'm linked to bobsnox and scum on his scumflip, except I'm also the better lynch because "well bobsnox claimed tracker and confirmed parama as VT, so let's lynch the VT first."

lynching the vt first is the correct move. however, i clearly(or thought that i clearly) explained that your acceptance of bob confirming you is what made me think you scummier. so no, you being scum was not "dependent" on bob scum at all. if i wasn't clear about that then i apologize, but i thought thats what i said here:

the fact that parama seems to be going along with the claim is

scummier

than bob's play.

I think I said it pretty well already, but an additional point of note: DJ never explicitly says he's town here, he just makes it "assumed" and then goes on to defend his neighbor, completely missing the point of my argument - I said "DJ is the scum neighbor" and DJ responds with "no, I don't think xvart is scum."

uh, no. you said:

Seeing the wagon now, no way in hell both neighbors are town.

and

When Zodiark flips scum, I'm going to find out which of the neighbors is his buddy.

this implies a scum neighbor. though you were more suspicious of me all along, you have still been wording your posts in a way that supports the "one neighbor must be scum" fallacy. but whatever.

skins: thanks for the repost, the case isn't terrible and i'm willing to hammer him. the fact is, if i am wrong about parama/bob, then zod could very well be scum, my gut just says hes town whose not good at writing. but whatever. i think we're better off letting imaginality in here before we end the day. i still don't like des putting zod to L-1. parama and bob are in no real danger of being lynched today, so his excuse reads like, well, an excuse. of all the votes on zod, thats the one that looks lilke a bus to me. but whatever.

pfffhahahaha "so yeah I could be wrong about the bobsnox/parama thing, and also since Zod looks like he's going to be lynched, I think it's time for some hardcore backpedaling."

see it how you want. i didn't hammer him. and i certainly had the oppurtunity. the pro-town move was to push for more discussion. which is why i am suspicious of des. he came in with the L-1 and the latter "someone might hammer, better hurry up", when he could have just unvoted. neither you nor bob were getting lynched. also, if zod was getting lynched and i knew he would flip scum, why would i say "bob/parama" might be town? why not continue to push bob/parama/zod? as scum, i could have not nk'd bob and cast even more doubt as to his claim. but i guess that takes thinking...

sup here's your case
also "lol I claimed to have legitimate things that say parama is scum outside of his relation to bobsnox, but lemme throw those away because of odds." Tell me that's a town mindset, and I will whack you with a totem pole.

i haven't thrown them away, but if you want to argue that you could still be scum, then by all means. at some point in these games, if you want to win as town, you need to start accepting things. things like "if parama is scum then he's already won." i'm willing to do that because if i don't, the game remains too confusing. check my sig. i would say that i have an above average win-loss record as town. odds are in scums favor. but i'm knocking on the door of a .500 average. me using odds to supplement my reads is just common sense. even though image dropped the real stats(which prove you just as likely to be scum as anyone in that situation), i as a player am left with a choice: solidify reads or not. i chose to solidify mine on you, even though your posts read terrible imo. as an example, please see above where you give evidence of pro-town maveuvres dj makes, and yet call dj scum for them.

So don. why are you voting out of your 3-man lynchpool that contains all the scum?

his recent posts are terrible, and both heads of the hydra are agreeing on something i already proved they were wrong about. hydras are a confusing read, and earlier, the one head was making sense. now they are both posting from the crapper. if you want to lynch someone from my "pool", then by all means vote them and i may join. but i'm certainly not going to lynch myself.

Despite the weird neighbor shenanigans, pretty much everything in don's posting points to him being scum.

except the neighbor shenanigans, the fact don nailed two possible power roles in the thread and discussed it in the qt and yet neither of the players turned up nk'd, even though the town protective role had been lynched. except the fact that skins is posting from his bunghole and misrepping, ad homming, and completely ignoring perfectly good answers to questions. except for the points you made in this post that show i'm probably town, except for the fact that i didn't quicklynch a claimed town power role on day 1, etc. well, no i think that about covers it. but whatever.

[don_johnson]

btw,

unvote

i want to look at the skins/zod connection a bit before a hammer. something about this day is bothering me.

fitz: i have a town read on xvart for a couple reasons which i already stated. remember, we have a qt. i agree that his VCA looks scummy, but he also made good points about bob so i can't really fault him on that one. is there a chance he is scum? certainly. but if he was scum, why would he have not nk'd one of bob/parama after i basically fed him my thoughts that they were wonfirming each other? only was i see xvart scum is if parama is scum telling him not to kill bob. if xvart/parama are scum, then that means imag/des/skins/fitz are all town. i don't think i can swallow that one. also, the suspicion i've drawn means an xvart town flip serves me up on a silver platter in lylo. i don't think its the right play, even if there was a case(i've only skimmed yours. i will address it later if need be.) i think xvart is town. what do you think about imag and des?

[deselby]

The 'tracker wouldn't have tracked two scum in two nights' logic is totally invalid: The N2 results are independent of the N1 results. You can't say, "because he tracked scum N2 he's less likely to have tracked scum N1". That's logically equivalent to saying during D2, "if you track scum N2, then whoever you tracked last night is less likely to be scum," which is clearly nonsense.

If you flip two coins, before you look at them, there's only a 1/4 chance of both being heads. But if your second flip is heads, that doesn't change the fact your first flip has 1/2 chance of being heads. Same deal here. The Parama-track result gives some reason t think he's town, but no-one should be using the fact bobsnox tracked Zodiark as additional reason for Parama-town.

This explains it way better than I did.

@deselby (and others): what are your thoughts about the 'don_johnson-scum would have killed Parama/bob rather than mention they think there's a PR-connection between the two to xvart in the neighbour thread' point? Do you think he did that to wifom xvart, or do you think it's a point in favour of him being town but outweighed by the other points against him?

tbh, possibly a townish point, though could be wifom I guess- don brought this up before xvart, also don was also keen to get the neighbours thing out in the open ASAP which would allow him to try this kind of thing. Bobs looked quite lynchable for much of the game too, and don did have a go at it. This is all a bit speculative though.

But, looking more at AH and havingfitz's interactions with Zodiark as per havingfitz's request, I see AntiHero was first to point out Zodiark's contradiction, which led to the wagon on him.

bobs actually brought this up first (270). Antihero first mentioned it 297.

@don, I am concerned about your “let’s not lynch neighbours” proposal. As I said earlier, it only makes any sense if you are town, kind of a pointless in this game. It seems that you were just trying to frighten town into not lynching a neighbour (which would probably be you). For me it is the scummiest post of D4 so far.

Why is this only directed at don? I also said as much when I was addressing Parama because IF both neighbors are town and we just go the route of lynch the neighbors we lose.

Xvart- your posts in my view were very different.
Yours said “lets not lynch neighbours without good reason, cos it could lead to certain loss”. I agree, nothing about the neighbours aligments should be assumed just from the fact they are neighbours. And IF scum were going to try that tactic, they probably can’t now.
Don basically said “we must lynch outside the hood because we are both town”. If there is a good reason to lynch a neighbour we should do it.
If I read wrong let me know.

[deselby]

don scum will point to dselby IMO. don town should focus attention on xvart.

Can you expand on these assertions?

me using odds to supplement my reads is just common sense. even though image dropped the real stats(which prove you just as likely to be scum as anyone in that situation), i as a player am left with a choice: solidify reads or not. i chose to solidify mine on you, even though your posts read terrible imo. as an example, please see above where you give evidence of pro-town maveuvres dj makes, and yet call dj scum for them.

@don, you “solidified” your read based on stats that don’t add up, and posting that suggested the opposite???
I want to hammer you for this and your "don't lynch a neighbour" policy. Any reason I shouldn't?

[havingfitz]

Unvote

[don_johnson]

I have spent alot of time defending myself. if you want to silence my voice and end the day then theres not much I can do. I would like to.reread and post. I want to also go back and look at the zod/skins connection(which seems to be a good part of imags case). But whatever. I hav some coffee on and my home comp booting up. Give me a few hours at least.

[don_johnson]

hm. rereading the zod lynch and fitz comes off as doing anything

but

considering zodiarkscum.

skins is too aggressive on zod for it to be a bus. same with parama. if they are bussing, then they're scumgold.

@havignfitz, why are you voting parama over zodiark? You have barely mentioned zodiark as yet.

when des posted this, here is what he had previously stated in regards to zod:

Zodiark is scummy, and now my no.1 suspect. I am not voting him yet however as I don't want to put him at L-1 so early in the day, with 2 replacements yet to post. I am wary that we may allow a scum or 2 to lurk through 3 entire days....

Zodiark's contradiction was scummy, and his defence of it, while he makes the occasional ok point, is, overall, not that convincing, in particular his slowness to recognise the contradiciton as scummy. Is zodiark more scummy than bobs? Not much in it IMO, but bobs by a nose.

And then there is Hrezs. His total contribution is:

votes parama fo a silly reason, without even really reading the thread.
makes passable point about kondi, then votes bob for a stupid reason (regarding his beck vote)
the "i find it hilarious..." post
halfhearted defence against parama, ends up very close to accusing parama of being scum, but doesn't vote for him.
doesn't "understand" the contradiciton im zodiarks post, and believes zodiark is town.

I didn't re-post hrezs posts, cos this is already relly long, and besides, there are only 11 Hrezs posts to read through, should anyone want to do so.

So to answer your original question bobs, I think you are pretty scummy, but I am not going to keep my vote on you when there is a better candidate.

unvote: bobsnox
vote: hrez

yeah, i have to go with skins town and deselby scum. of course, sitting at L-1 with des threatening a hammer i may just be signing my death warrant. but i think des avoided zod when he could, then came in with this on the zod lynch:

However, with the wagon building elsewhere in spite of zodiark's scumminess:

vote: zodiark. THIS IS L-1

what "wagons"? bob and parama? neither of those lynches was happening, and neither was anywhere near a quicklynch. then:

i think we're better off letting imaginality in here before we end the day.

Imaginality, no need to rush your post, be thorough. I very much doubt anyone will hammer before you post (within reason of course).

On second thoughts imag, maybe get a move on just in case someone does hammer....

zod had self hammered.

i don't know. fitz/imag/des/xvart has to be the pool. i'll start isos soon. outside chance of parama scum, but like i said, if he's scum then we've already lost.

sorry skins.