TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win

[hipaddict1]

as i said, i dont think zinger is lying

Isn't Zinger the one who changed his claim? Twice?

NA1

[drmyshottyizsik]

Andrew speaks english >.> he's from down under iirc.

[silverdrummer]

Catching up like normal

Volkan vastly misinterpreted Rainbow's post in 1287...

-Hopps

@ Silver: You never thought to check yourself whether Pine was being replaced in other games?

The only thing I did in that regard was to see if he was still making posts close to the dates I kept yelling about him. And he was (I think most in marathon but I could be wrong). So no it never really entered my mind and I would have been way too lazy to find said games and see if Pine was getting replaced elsewhere.

-Nero

Its currently day 1 with 50 pages. Me and you or anyone arguing back and forth is just a distraction. Lynches provide a ton of information. Of course you don't want a lynch on yourself (though that very much contradicts an earlier statement).

+and just in general if we have a scum wagon the more time scum has to point fingers elsewhere and derail.

I disagree with the first part, it depends fully on what your arguing about. Where does the "Of course I don't want a lynch on myself" come from?
The last part I partially agree with but at the same time... it leaves evidence that said person has derailed said wagon... plus I think it'd take a lot to derail the two current wagons.

No. I think if I come out and say "X, X, X reasons are why I find this slot scummy" and someone says "oh well I can't refute those points, what else ya got?" Thats why scum want full cases.

You totally lost me here. If you have X,X,X reasons why a slot is scummy and said person states.. ah they can't refute them. Doesn't that give you concrete evidence which then helps said slot get lynched... which is not what scum would want at all?

---

The andrew in my other games never complained about english not being his first language... and he normally tossed reads left and right. Then again he did that as both town and scum

[Rainbowdash]

@ rainbow: take your blinkers off. You are failing/refusing to take in to account any circumstantial evidence regarding Zinger, also you are failing/refusing to look at the situation without bias.

A) You say that when someone claims 3rd party they should be lynched, and you have no reason to believe Zinger was gambiting, BUT his play in previous games has proven his willingness to take what seem like stupid risks

B) You say there is no reason for him to claim 3rd party as town, BUT what reason does he have to claim 3rd party if he is indeed 3rd party or scum?

I will assume you mean blinders not blinkers unless this is some new talent I have yet to discover, being multi-talented as I am, it easily could be however.

Part of saying that all third party claims should be lynched is that it stops ponies from eventually faking third party roles because they think it's clever or something along those lines. If you are claiming he is one of those ponies that need to constantly be given a pass because of his inability to do anything correctly, thats not going to fly either. I would be willing to lynch ponies like that regardless of alignment every time if it eventually teaches them to not be complete Derpy Ponies, or he leaves the site like he appears to be threatening for and I hope he does. If you want to call it a policy lynch, I would be fine with such as it is to a certain extent. His continued play of showing no intention to help later is enough to cement it as the correct move, especially when its up against silver. Maybe if it was Zinger vs Peregrine I would be willing to let this slide, but here no chance.

First if he was third party and his original claim was right, it actually WAS the correct move for him to claim like he did as there was a win option for him that would remove him from the game. The thing though is we get to where we are now, where everypony just decides to give him a pass because no scum would make this move. It is a gambit but are you honestly saying you have never seen scum claim third party to try and escape a lynch? It happens, about at the same rate town thinks its a cute gambit to try and then gets torched for. These types of claims are WIFOM since its the quote unquote incorrect move to make for any alignment.

[hiplop]

unvote vote silver

respond to stuff when i get back

Also explain the vote when you get back.

as i said, i dont think zinger is lying, so im voting silver. silver was also suspicious for reasons i remembered i stated before but forgot.
english is NOT my first language.

also, im pretty sure you said i was scum somewhere.

I do think that you are scum, however perhaps not as much after learning that English isn't your first language.

Between the post where you ask me what ELSE I believe you're scummy for and the post before that, where you'll see we were only discussing your read on Zinger.

Also,

Moderator, is it against the rules to have Andrew post in his native language and have us use google translate? I have no clue if this is a bad question or not but I think it'd be easier to communicate with him if we could

Thirdly, how was easjo's first post fence sitting, I don't see it and this is where I'd like others' input to try and explain his reasoning or a mod-confirmation on if translations are allowed because this is the kind of incoherent thing that I'm talking about. I just simply can't understand him, although I will note that he did stop responding to this line of questioning at one point.

Lastly, how do you think that "lynching zinger is bad because he claimed town PR" but that "scum will always claim PR so who would we ever lynch?", which basically means that at some point day 1 we have to lynch a PR claim. It's contradictory.

I think you're town and all, but damn, cut your ego a bit? Andrew is speaking fine, if you can't understand him, well there's something wrong with you, not him. Its terribly rude to ask something like that.

[Zinger2099]

I think you're town and all, but damn, cut your ego a bit? Andrew is speaking fine, if you can't understand him, well there's something wrong with you, not him. Its terribly rude to ask something like that.

This. Glad to see I'm not the only one put off by such behaviour.

[Rodion]

6) Zinger2099 - started posting without contributing, switched to claiming 3rd-party JK and then town JK (I took his doc claim as a joke). Really scummy to me, but I'm weary of other people exaggerating his scuminess (Junpei/Meran), which leads me to consider the possibility that it was, after all, just a poor gambit (and that the people who exaggerated deserve a deeper look).

I'm pretty sure meran has been arguing against a zinger lynch.

He has been, but that doesn't change the fact that he had to lie in order to call Zinger's claim "opportunistically scummy". I explained my thoughts regarding that already in the beginning of #908.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3272655

1 - The safe thing is not necessarily the best.

4 - Skimming much? That is not how it happened. It was actually the opposite. Meransiel basically said "JKs are always town, so claiming JK is opportunistically scummy", to which Zinger correctly replied that he has seen mafia JKs before.

6 - Yes, it was. And you saying that "there is no way to determine at the moment whether there is a mafia JK in this game" is absolutely correct. What I said is that what you wrote is not a good reply against anything I had said before, since I never disputed the impossibility of knowing if we have a mafia JK D1.

My next post will continue my reads.

1) So you'd assume that town would take a huge unnecessary gamble?

4) Yes. How about I do this for you. Meran: JKs are always town, mafia would claim JK for that reason. Zinger: I'm town and JK so sure, but I'm not mafia, can't really give you actual proof I'm not, besides town JK would also claim town JK.

Instead it went: Meran: JKs are always town, mafia would claim JK for that reason. Zinger: There are also mafia JKs.

They go on to argue on the topic of mafia JKs, tell me that is not pointless.

1 - Considering town believe his original claim, I think the correct thing to do is to speculate on risk/reward of Zinger staying alive and blocking people. Town could also try to force Zinger to block handpicked people (scummiest slots) or be lynched the next day, essentially using his powers for our own sake. I don't think he would disobbey, considering we have a claimed tracker that could warn us and get him lynched the next day. Again, I never said town should deal with him or keep him alive, I said his play made more than 0 sense. I see how his gambit could have worked for town (and there was a chance that it could, that's undeniable). Actually, there is a chance that it CAN work, as Zinger is apparently going to survive today's lynch.

4 - Now you explained it well. And briefly. Thank you.

And it's not pointless because the alleged inexistence of mafia JKs was used to backhandedly call Zinger opportunistically scummy. That allowed Zinger to defend himself. When Pinky noticed Meran was lyingm Meran was allowed to talk about it to defend himself as well. The conversation had a purpose, thus it was not pointless.

You seem to forget that information can be shared INSIDE the Neighborhood. Both Neighborizors know the identitiy of the other, as will anyone they chose to Neighborize in the future. This means that when I die there is little chance the information that could benefit Town is lost. If I die others will be able to cooberate this fact. If the scum attempt to take out a Town Neighborizor they run the risk of losing their role or being discovered via the existence of a leak.

I've never played with neighbourizors. Are you saying there are 2 neighbourizors in the same neighbourhood, not 2 distinct neighbourhoods? I ask this because I thought the 2 neighbourizors were not able to talk to each other (since one of them "wasted" an action by inviting someone that was already invited by the other) but you say the know each other. Do they know each other but can't communicate? Please elaborate on that.


Pages 42-46 read and page 47 being read. More tomorrow.

[Rodion]

Actually, there is a chance that it CAN work, as Zinger is apparently going to survive today's lynch.

Apparently I misread the VC. He's going to die, so can goes back to could.

A few notes on the initial readthrough:

What's with all the name claims and roleclaims on day one? SRSLY?

Rodion's post 1007: Go back and read this. Really read it. I have rarely seen a more conciliatory piece of work in a game of Mafia. I especially like this little gem:

Zinger2099 - started posting without contributing, switched to claiming 3rd-party JK and then town JK (I took his doc claim as a joke). Really scummy to me, but I'm weary of other people exaggerating his scuminess (Junpei/Meran), which leads me to consider the possibility that it was, after all, just a poor gambit (and that the people who exaggerated deserve a deeper look).

He agrees with the crowd that Zinger is "really scummy" but also casts a wide IGMEOY at everyone who agrees with him. That's a neat trick, if you can pull it off.

The IGMEOY was only cast at Junpei and Meran because they used illegitimate reasons. Meran had to resort to a lie ("there is no such thing as a mafia JK"), while Junpei considered that a plan that made sense (although stupid) made in fact zero sense (not truthful).

There is no spoon either.

Regardless.. minor thing I'm wondering. Rodion, what're your thoughts on the two wagons?

You mention thinking Zinger was scummy, tempered with percieved exaggeration on Meran/Junpei's part, as well as mentioning that you didn't like Silver's "Ask the other head", and Pine focus.. what do you think of them now, and what was the thing you didn't want to mention about Silver on Monday?

I'm only asking as you're one of the four without a vote on anyone, and the only one of the four who doesn't really have inactivity as a solid excuse. (Two of the four are fresh replacements, Pine is being replaced, that leaves you.. I'm wondering why, with your reads, this is the case..

is it simply a case of not feeling strongly enough about anyone to lay down a vote

, or is there something deeper?

Regarding Silver, I wanted to know how he would have handled the Pine slot after a replacement, basically whether he would keep pushing for the replacement's lynch or not. If he didn't, I'd have an anti-town read on him, as it would prove him not to be worried about the slot itself as much as trying to get someone he disliked lynched. If he kept his pressure on whoever inherited Pine's slot, he would have been coherent, so either null or town. Unfortunately, MoI convinced him to drop Pine's pursuit before I could test that.

Back when I unvoted Zinger I waited to finish my back and forth with Meran before I could decide my new vote recipient. Meran went V/LA and I didn't find anyone to cast my vote on as Junpei had a PR claim that could partially confirm itself with time.

I just ended page 52 and I'll cast a vote when I catch up. And the part I bolded on your quote is correct.

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Right, massive MoI response time.

1. Why it is possible that Zinger's claim is a scum gambit.

Firstly, your assertion that he was not under pressure is false. He had four votes, was tied for the lead, and two of those votes had accrued pretty quickly when he first hinted he might not be town.

Secondly, the benefits to scum of pulling such a gambit are fairly obvious. If his third party claim is believed and he is not lynched, he gets away with going through the game not saying anything relevant. That is an obvious boon to scum. In addition, he probably protects himself from any potential rival scumgroups or SKs that might be floating around.

Thirdly, we believe it is not necessarily the case that he knew his third party claim would bring him heat. On Xylbot, survivors tend to claim first post and are usually ignored from there. Without greater familiarity with EpicMafia, it's hard to say if it's the same, but it certainly

could

be. Either way, if he knew that third party claimants usually get lynched, he likely doesn't claim third party as any alignment, that would just be ridiculously stupid.

Fourthly, the 'Claim Doc' part of his string of claims doesn't make sense from the 'avoiding NK' perspective, and is dangerous for town (possibility of counterclaim outing real doc) whilst useful for scum (same reason) and is not much more likely to keep you alive than merely a town JK claim.

Fifthly, the Pappums head of this hydra has played with Zinger as a town power role before, and in that game, as we said previously, appeared to put a good amount of effort into his scumhunting. That he isn't doing that here could speak to a difference in motive. Pappums head strongly feels you twisted his words by interpreting 'decent scumhunting' as being excellent or incisive as opposed to sincere or noticeable. Fonz head thinks your interpretation was a reasonable misunderstanding, but the fact remains that is not what we meant. Believe us or not, really. Still, we don't think you've really engaged with the point that we wouldn't expect a player who's shown himself to be sober and competent as a town PR in another game to act like a massive derp as town PR in this game.

Seventhly, as a result of Khan's game of mafia, where Iamausername as scum

deliberately lied in such a way to make it look like a town gambit

in order to gain towncred, Fonzhead is incredibly reluctant to suffer any known liar to live.

We think the most likely scenario is that he actually is third party. Then, the motive makes sense at pretty much every point. That said, as this kind of third party, at the very least he has an incentive to rolefish in order to find out who his target is. And his behaviour is simply SO derpy for town that we can't believe anyone would legitimately be that stupid.

[David Xanatos]

Actually, the whole Silver - Pine thing has me actually suspecting Silver a little more now that he's dropped it, not less. I refuse to believe someone would make the demand for proof without looking themselves, and only actually bother looking themselves when pretty much everyone was calling them on it.. it seems quite scummy that his apparent hate of the slot just snuffed out because, shock horror, what people had been saying the entire damn time was true..

Rodion > Thanks for clearing that up. It was just something in the back of my mind.

Pappums > Does that bolded "1" mean there's more to come?

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

Yes. We're also going to respond to his criticisms of our play, but we figured that our case on Zinger was the important bit, and long enough that we didn't want to then add another three or four points onto the end of it.

[drmyshottyizsik]

Jacket you make such good points... I'm very willing to hammer right now.

[David Xanatos]

Fair dos, just the way it was laid out I wasn't sure whether there was more or if it was a response to a number 1 point MoI made that I couldn't see..

[Banshee]

Not much time to answer right now, but:

Firstly, your assertion that he was not under pressure is false. He had four votes, was tied for the lead, and two of those votes had accrued pretty quickly when he first hinted he might not be town.

Also he had the ZeL1nK threat hanging over his head from very early on in the game, which apparently caused some pressure on its own.

Speaking of which:

@ZeL1nK

: Why did you announce you were going to vig Zinger in the first place? I don't think you've ever answered this.

[ThAdmiral]

I will assume you mean blinders not blinkers unless this is some new talent I have yet to discover, being multi-talented as I am, it easily could be however.

Blinkers and blinders are the same thing depending where you come from.

Part of saying that all third party claims should be lynched is that it stops ponies from eventually faking third party roles because they think it's clever or something along those lines. If you are claiming he is one of those ponies that need to constantly be given a pass because of his inability to do anything correctly, thats not going to fly either. I would be willing to lynch ponies like that regardless of alignment every time if it eventually teaches them to not be complete Derpy Ponies, or he leaves the site like he appears to be threatening for and I hope he does. If you want to call it a policy lynch, I would be fine with such as it is to a certain extent. His continued play of showing no intention to help later is enough to cement it as the correct move, especially when its up against silver. Maybe if it was Zinger vs Peregrine I would be willing to let this slide, but here no chance.

This entire paragraph = "it doesn't even matter if he's town, I'd still lynch him". Fair enough, you can choose to be like that but I choose to believe that is

sub-optimal play

. And I am judging you based on that.

First if he was third party and his original claim was right, it actually WAS the correct move for him to claim like he did as there was a win option for him that would remove him from the game. The thing though is we get to where we are now, where everypony just decides to give him a pass because no scum would make this move. It is a gambit but are you honestly saying you have never seen scum claim third party to try and escape a lynch? It happens, about at the same rate town thinks its a cute gambit to try and then gets torched for. These types of claims are WIFOM since its the quote unquote incorrect move to make for any alignment.

I honestly can say I have never seen it (or if I have I can't remember it). Why, if he was scum, would he not have just said "town jk" instead of "3rd party jk". There is literally no reason that I can see. If a scum claims 3rd party they have ensured there is 0% chance for them to survive throughout the game. Him actually being 3rd party is just as unlikely as that claim was mooted when it was pointed out it was unfairly difficult for him to reach his alleged win condition.
It is actually not

necessarily

the incorrect move to make for town, however. In this case if he had survived the lynch (possible but unlikely) mafia would not have wasted a kill on him, knowing that we would eventually lynch the claimed 3rd party. It was still

stupid

, don't get me wrong, but it has the best (only) motive of any alignment.

[ThAdmiral]

Andrew speaks english >.> he's from down under iirc.

He only knows 2 languages: english and BAD english. He's much more fluent in the second one.

On a serious note though Andrew has sailed through this day providing nothing and has so far escaped any serious attention. This should be remedied...

vote: andrew

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

2. On the 'Newbie Escalator'

Firstly, as noted in the previous post, we don't think Zinger should be given a n00b pass. He has demonstrated himself to be somewhat competent in a different game on-site.

Secondly, it was Rodion, not Vifam. We have been trying to analyze the Vifam wagon, and have really struggled to get our collective heads around it.

Thirdly, there's an obvious difference between the two cases. You jumped on something Rodion said that seemed to us either the result of poor phrasing or simple noobishness (and for the record, we believe that it was reasonable to interpret the threat of a Vezok quicklynch as real since it's happened before). You then went through, calling his defenses and explanations scummy, and such that you'd put him in the position of being under a large amount of pressure and giving the appearance of cracking before he'd even had the chance to scumhunt. We felt a better way to discern his alignment would be to turn down the heat, and see if he made a real effort to help the town when NOT in the spotlight, then come back to him later if he started behaving in a scummy manner when people weren't looking.

By contrast, Zinger came under attack in the first place precisely because he didn't say anything useful or relevant when other people were the focus of attention (and as such, there was the possibility of saying something useful or interesting about them). Our particular focus in this game has been on people who haven't done anything to make us think they have town motives. You could call that 'weak' if you want, but in our eyes not scumhunting is the number one scumtell.

[Banshee]

Caught these on a reread after ThAdmiral's response.

Part of saying that all third party claims should be lynched is that it stops ponies from eventually faking third party roles because they think it's clever or something along those lines. If you are claiming he is one of those ponies that need to constantly be given a pass because of his inability to do anything correctly, thats not going to fly either. I would be willing to lynch ponies like that regardless of alignment every time if it eventually teaches them to not be complete Derpy Ponies, or he leaves the site like he appears to be threatening for and I hope he does.

No. A world of no to this comment. Also, it's very hard to take you seriously with the pony stuff.

The thing though is we get to where we are now, where everypony just decides to give him a pass because no scum would make this move.

That's not at all where we are now. Zinger is L-1 or L-2 depending on recent vote shifts. Do you really perceive that Zinger is getting a free pass?

@Pappum:

Do you think that the combination of a threatened vig and a threatened lynch could have caused Zinger to melt down in the way he apparently did?

[jasonT1981]

Day 1 Vote count 16

Zinger 13 - Vezo,Leonshade, Junpei, Hipaddict, Izak, Pappum,, KillerJester, DavidX, Vollkan,Rainbow,Cherve,Pinky, Banshee (L-1)
Silver 7 - Oversoul, Nero, Mera, MOI, , Zinger, CHKBallin, Andrew
Hipaddict 1 - PeregrineV
Izak 1 - ZeL1nk,
Andrew 1 - THAdmiral
Nero 1 - Silver

Not Voting: 3 - drmyshottyizsik, Pine, Rodion.

Mera (back 29th) Izak (Back 31st)

With 27 alive it takes 14 to lynch with a deadline of 12th August 12pm EST

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from 4pm EST today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

Mod: Confirmed

--

Also he had the ZeL1nK threat hanging over his head from very early on in the game, which apparently caused some pressure on its own.

You do understand that this is a pretty absurd statement since if Zinger is a Jailkeeper he could just as easily Jail Zel1nk to ‘remove’ said threat and pressure, right?

--

Also increasing the chances of information roles' death isn't optimal play at this point.

Wait, I thought you had back-tracked and conceded that this isn’t a valid point.

--

pretty sure it was 3isfrench aka me

No, the initial request was to Pappums in questioning why his request to show Town-3rdParty-Scum in order regarding Zinger was anything other than busywork.

--

Part of saying that all third party claims should be lynched is that it stops ponies from eventually faking third party roles because they think it's clever or something along those lines.

Oh, so your stance is some variation on a Policy lynch stance since you don’t support gambit claiming.

--

Are you saying there are 2 neighbourizors in the same neighbourhood, not 2 distinct neighbourhoods?

No. There are two Separate and distinct players who during the day today have recruited me into separate Neighborhoods. The mechanics by which they claim to Neighborize are identical, at least as far as they have shared so far.

--

1. Why it is possible that Zinger's claim is a scum gambit.

Firstly, your assertion that he was not under pressure is false. He had four votes, was tied for the lead, and two of those votes had accrued pretty quickly when

he first hinted he might not be town.

No, that’s absurd. 4 votes when 14 are required to lynch is hardly significant pressure. In a game this size you can fall into 4 votes via RVS quick as a blink. Being tied means that at least one other person was under the same ‘level’ ( I use the term loosely) pressure so that hardly causes a rational player to panic.

In context 4 votes is less than 1/3 of the votes required to vote today. Put into context of a 13 player game …. it would be the equivalent of making his claim with 2 votes Day 1. Hardly pressure at all.

The bolded actually further undermines your argument. You state he got half of those 4 mighty votes for hinting he wasn’ Town. Thus outright claiming 3rd Party isn’t a good survival tactic for scum to use if hinting you were not Town earns you votes.

Question

– why would scum even hint they were not Town, as you report, in the first place?

Secondly, the benefits to scum of pulling such a gambit are fairly obvious. If his third party claim is believed and he is not lynched, he gets away with going through the game not saying anything relevant. That is an obvious boon to scum. In addition, he probably protects himself from any potential rival scumgroups or SKs that might be floating around.

You are arguing that it’s beneficial to scum to pull a gambit Day 1 that resulted in a massive wagon because on the off-chance it works they may be able to slide by through the game. That’s absurd logic. The risks in that scenario outweight the rewards greatly when

JUST NOT CLAIMING 3RD PARTY

in a Large game means he was much more likely to skate by for days even if he active lurks.

Not putting yourself on the radar as any sort of Target so trumps actively making yourself a Lynch and possible SK / Other Mafia target (since the SK or Other Mafia, if they exist, can’t know that they aren’t the subject of Claimed 3rd party JK’s search).

Thirdly, we believe it is not necessarily the case that he knew his third party claim would bring him heat. On Xylbot, survivors tend to claim first post and are usually ignored from there. Without greater familiarity with EpicMafia, it's hard to say if it's the same, but it certainly could be. Either way, if he knew that third party claimants usually get lynched, he likely doesn't claim third party as any alignment, that would just be ridiculously stupid.

So you are using conjecture about Xylbot and EpicMafia (neither of which Zinger has indicated he has ANY exposure to) as support for your argument. No, that doesn’t fly.

Fourthly, the 'Claim Doc' part of his string of claims doesn't make sense from the 'avoiding NK' perspective, and is dangerous for town (possibility of counterclaim outing real doc) whilst useful for scum (same reason) and is not much more likely to keep you alive than merely a town JK claim.

First off my reading of the ‘Doc’ claim was a frustrated joke by Zinger. When it was made his ‘gambit’ had blown up in his face and he was being sarcastic, IMO.

Second that you didn’t bother to worry about a counterclaim from a Town blocking role (RB / JK) but only worried about a Doc counterclaim rings false.

Fifthly, the Pappums head of this hydra has played with Zinger as a town power role before, and in that game, as we said previously, appeared to put a good amount of effort into his scumhunting. That he isn't doing that here could speak to a difference in motive. Pappums head strongly feels you twisted his words by interpreting 'decent scumhunting' as being excellent or incisive as opposed to sincere or noticeable. Fonz head thinks your interpretation was a reasonable misunderstanding, but the fact remains that is not what we meant. Believe us or not, really. Still, we don't think you've really engaged with the point that we wouldn't expect a player who's shown himself to be sober and competent as a town PR in another game to act like a massive derp as town PR in this game.

I went to Superhero Mafia (and I find it frightening that the entire game was only 57 pages long) and the Neighborhood QT we were in together to pull quotes from Pappums about Zinger that game. Here is everything I found –

Second, Zinger is entirely wrong about not being told you are roleblocked, no one ever gets told they are roleblocked on this site (AFAIK). He has said nothing about what action he may have taken that, in it's absence, would let him know if he was roleblocked, and until he does it says nothing about diddin.

..

I agree with Reck that the diddin wagon is bad, Zinger, Meransiel, and dana all have bad reasons for being on this wagon.

Hmmm. Bad reasons for being on a wagon is decent scum-hunting?

Bad reasoning for being on the diddin wagon. People do not get told if they are roleblocked.

This is a response to Zinger’s original diddin vote and outlines his reasoning.

Ah, I see now. I had misread this post originally. So it looks like diddin is almost-confirmed scum after all, unless Zinger is lying. There would not really be any reason for Zinger to lie in this situation though, so I believe him. Short days are good for scum, and there is still plenty of scumhunting to be done on this day, so I will not vote him at this point.

Here Pappums clues into why Zinger wasn’t lying (he wasn’t) and reverses his read.

That is the full extent of Pappum’s in-game ISO regarding Zinger. Here is his thread post game comment to Zinger.

Zinger, people are rarely reported for making insults, especially against someone like GreyICE. Less QQ plox. And it doesnt help that you didnt own up to your bad vig shots either. Accepting the criticism of others is an important part of becoming a better mafia player, and all you did was shrug off everyone's comments on your kills and convinced yourself that everyone else was wrong. DK was a fair vig shot and Meransiel wasnt awfully terrible, but GreyICE and dana were terrible, terrible vig shots.

When there is a group of people who were decent choices like we had in this game and you choose players like those, who were obvtown like GreyICE and a softclaimed PR like dana, you should expect some criticism.

IMO this hardly looks like a player who thought Zinger did a competent job scum-hunting. In fact the bolded portion strongly indicates he thought Zinger was outside the group of players making 'decent' choices.

No significant posting in the Neighborhood QT at all from Pappums re Zinger.

So, is this “Zinger did a decent job” a retrofit or what?

Seventhly, as a result of Khan's game of mafia, where Iamausername as scum deliberately lied in such a way to make it look like a town gambit in order to gain towncred, Fonzhead is incredibly reluctant to suffer any known liar to live.

Hmmm, what happened to Sixthly?

Give me specifics here? Did Iam claim in a similar manner?

Are you seriously suggesting that Zinger’s gambit was made in a way to appear like a Town gambit? If anything Silver’s “He’s a better lynch than me” screams “Get me Cred” posting much more than ANYTHING Zinger has done.

You Policy Stance (which is basically a modified version of Lynch All Liars / Gambiters) is noted.

You have convinced me of one thing. That my vote needs to move.

UNVOTE: Silver
VOTE: Pappums

[Banshee]

Also he had the ZeL1nK threat hanging over his head from very early on in the game, which apparently caused some pressure on its own.

You do understand that this is a pretty absurd statement since if Zinger is a Jailkeeper he could just as easily Jail Zel1nk to ‘remove’ said threat and pressure, right?

That's a pretty big "if", though. Imo Zinger is hostile/neutral third party more likely than scum based on his play here. I don't understand the point nor the possible win condition of a nonaligned Jailkeeper (please, point out if I'm wrong here) so I think he's lying about his role entirely.

Also, Zinger informed us what he would do if the positions were reversed already, in this post.

[MagnaofIllusion]

That's a pretty big "if", though. Imo Zinger is hostile/neutral third party more likely than scum based on his play here. I don't understand the point nor the possible win condition of a nonaligned Jailkeeper (please, point out if I'm wrong here) so I think he's lying about his role entirely.

Ok, so you think he's scum who made a completely fake Jailkeeper claim (ignoring the alignment element for the moment). What was his motive? And why make the claim when he did as scum?

The point of 3rd parties with alternate win conditions is to throw in some chaos into the balance of the set-up.

[Meransiel]

Back from my V/LA.

So why the fuck is Zinger still almost dead?

[PeregrineV]

Back from my V/LA.

So why the fuck is Zinger still almost dead?

Half the scum are on the Zinger wagon, one or two on silver, and one elsewhere.

[nintendoaddict1]

Back from my V/LA.

So why the fuck is Zinger still almost dead?

Half the scum are on the Zinger wagon, one or two on silver, and one elsewhere.

You know this?