Newbie 1138 - Game Over! Town Win!

[Bricktoes]

I'm not being patient because it feels too much like you're waiting for other people's opinions to agree with and bandwagons to jump on. Luckily that wasn't an option for you here. How about those mistakes you were seeing before? Have they kept being made? Did someone scare off your suspect from making those mistakes?

[whilst]

First, let me answer this:

Let's get this out of the way: If you were mafia, who would you have killed N1 and why?

If I were mafia, I would've killed you. You post way too much. Long posts too. I would've hoped the Doctor wasn't protecting you, or that you were the doctor and just gone for it. Besides, I would've just played off the "no mafia kill during N1" as a mind-fuck for the town to deal with. My second choice? Probably an IC, for the same reasons as I would've killed them on N0 -- less experience, the better.

I'm not being patient because it feels too much like you're waiting for other people's opinions to agree with and bandwagons to jump on. Luckily that wasn't an option for you here. How about those mistakes you were seeing before? Have they kept being made? Did someone scare off your suspect from making those mistakes?

It's easier to make opinions on people after you've seen their reactions to the night kill, don't you agree?

You're referring to my Napoleon quote. I guess I shouldn't have, but I assumed Day 1 would've gone on longer. I was hoping I could read more posts, and find enough flaws to make a point. I said I wouldn't share my thoughts because then whatever I pointed out, could be fixed, and then I would have nothing to point out anymore. I was being pressured to make an opinion, so I defended my reasoning not to. No, no one scared me off from anything; that doesn't make any sense. The worst the mafia can do is kill me during the night, what kind of fear is that? Only one where I couldn't help the town anymore, sure. I'm not dodging your inquiries either, I just can't answer to "Have they kept being made?" -- because I don't know if they will be. We need more discussion.

[Bricktoes]

I didn't ask if you were scared.

[Bricktoes]

And you can answer the last part, it's a yes or no question. If a mistake was made more than once, say yes. There's nothing to potentially be given away. Are there even any mistakes that have been made, or was that just something to say so you could compare yourself to Napoleon? Have you noticed anything yourself or are you just going to keep waiting and then agreeing with everyone else?

[whilst]

I didn't ask if you were scared.

Ah, I guess I just read this sentence too quickly:

Did someone scare off your suspect from making those mistakes?

Sorry.

And you can answer the last part, it's a yes or no question. If a mistake was made more than once, say yes. There's nothing to potentially be given away. Are there even any mistakes that have been made, or was that just something to say so you could compare yourself to Napoleon?

Suit yourself, my answer is 'no'. Like you said, there's nothing to be given away.

Have you noticed anything yourself or are you just going to keep waiting and then agreeing with everyone else?

I consider this to be a direct attack. Please clarify.

[Bricktoes]

I'm not being patient because it feels too much like you're waiting for other people's opinions to agree with and bandwagons to jump on.

For someone who tries so hard not to show his hand, does it bother you at all that everything you've said is said first by other people? You don't want to stop mistakes from being made, but it looks like everyone else is doing that for you and it doesn't seem to bother you at all.

[Honest Abel]

cavjj is new, inexperienced. It almost... makes sense that he did what he did, considering who he is and how he thinks. I don't find that scummy at all. You do have to consider whether or not he's smarter than he's letting on. But I think the fact that he reconciled and admitted his hammer was a mistake is probably a good sign that he's newbtown. I will not be a part of a cavjj lynch unless either DarkClaymore or I Am Innocent turn up town. And I don't think they will.

[whilst]

I'm not being patient because it feels too much like you're waiting for other people's opinions to agree with and bandwagons to jump on.

For someone who tries so hard not to show his hand, does it bother you at all that everything you've said is said first by other people? You don't want to stop mistakes from being made, but it looks like everyone else is doing that for you and it doesn't seem to bother you at all.

If you're going to make an argument, at least use concrete examples. The rest of the town can read my posts, they can play how they want--regardless of my strategy. I'm not going to tell everyone "stop pointing out flaws". That play style has it's own advantages too: If you bring a point of discontinuity, the original poster can hesitate and make more mistakes.

cavjj is new, inexperienced. It almost... makes sense that he did what he did, considering who he is and how he thinks. I don't find that scummy at all. You do have to consider whether or not he's smarter than he's letting on. But I think the fact that he reconciled and admitted his hammer was a mistake is probably a good sign that he's newbtown. I will not be a part of a cavjj lynch unless either DarkClaymore or I Am Innocent turn up town. And I don't think they will.

I know you're not defending him, but I don't see an apology as acquitting him of all charges. As for IAI and DarkClaymore, we'll just have to wait until they respond then.

[I Am Innocent]

I'm not so much concerned with how scummy your votes were, although your vote on BBmolla left a bad taste in my mouth.

Very interesting since you had a vote on BBmolla yourself and even asked the group "Is anyone else interested in having a go at BBmolla?" the post preceding my vote.

So what exactly "left a bad taste in [your] mouth"

The real funny part is that your buddy, DarkClaymore, gives you away both times by following your votes with bad reasoning.

So DarKClaymore gave me away, which means he must be scum moreso than me. Or in other words, my scumminess depends on him, right???

Yet you vote me first. Can you explain the thought process there?

I Am Innocent and DarkClaymore's pretended cluelessness about why Scumhunter was killed is laughable. Lesser reason: It makes cavjj look a little scummy. Greater reason:

Doc definitely wouldn't be protecting Scumhunter

. This happens in almost every mafia game I've seen. Nobody goes for the obvious kill on the first night because the potential doctor will protect the obvious kill. Also, nobody would be going after the IC after my question about N0, would they?

Re: Underlined, that could be said about many players. So why scumhunter amongst the other players not named wicked. I don't know why, he definitely was not the most townie of other players D1. That was my point.

Will finish catching up in a little bit.

[Bricktoes]

Okay whilst, I admit I wasn't reading thoroughly enough and may have been too harsh in my reaction, but can you understand that it is frustrating when you won't post and then only post about two of the biggest suspects other people have? Not sharing what very well may be helpful is pretty anti-town.

[Honest Abel]

DarkClaymore, the whole enchilada

First of all, this guy only has 10 posts, which would be scummy in itself if so many other people hadn't been contributing just as little. So let's take a look at how newbscum can condemn themselves in just 10 posts:

#13: First double vote in the game; follows IAI's lead in voting for me, even though giving a "random" reason.

#43: Confesses hate/hopelessness for Day 1; thinks there's nothing to be learned. Plenty of town players have said this in the past, but it's not a very good attitude, and when paired with his idea later that Day 1 actually needs to end as fast as possible, it's a suspect attitude.

He also confirms his random vote on me with a non-random reason: my posts are too long and too reasonable. Apparently this is a scum pattern to him.

#48: He answers my question with a long post detailing the answer to the question from every possible perspective. It makes me view #43 as stating something that

he

is afraid of doing when scum, since he clearly does it here. #48 goes beyond the realm of reason and gets too deep into a hypothetical realm. He also brings up WIFOM in his rambling. I don't see the use of talking about WIFOM, and I have the impression that it's something newbscum bring up just to make the whole game seem very confusing and uncertain. This again goes with his hopeless D1 attitude earlier.

#71: Explains further the backwards idea that people who are reasonable are scum. Says it's because of a game he played once where he let someone slip away. Irrelevant/fluff.

#90: Says that the "kill the most experienced player" option is wrong. I repeat, he says it's wrong. Also whining about wanting D1 to end, so he puts BBmolla at L-1, listing his only reason as "I've seen cases where 'two townies gunning at each other' has been proven false." Just hilariously weak reasoning to be giving for putting someone at L-1. He even admits it's not a solid reason, but... votes anyway. Perhaps just to follow the lead of his more experienced buddy, I Am Innocent.

#121: "Oh no, he got us" comment is trying way too hard to look unaffected. Predictably, he goes on to accuse cavjj both of hammering scummily and trying to make him and IAI look bad. He then brings up WIFOM again to talk about the night kill, which is meant to make it appear indecipherable. Useless. Now he's saying that "I still would have chosen the IC." Still, huh? Compare to #90 when he says the response of killing the IC is "wrong." He then votes for the IC for not dying, because according to his own crazy rambling on the subject, anyone dying but the IC means the IC is guilty. Love it.

#127: "I'd post more if I had anything decent to say." Lack of anything decent to say is scummy. Quotes my post and erroneously asks me why I'm sure we have a doc. Also speculates about IC being doc or PR. Rolefishing. Brings up wine again, erroneously. Hints to us that they rolecopped Jester instead of killing him, obviously because they didn't want to risk having a doctor protect him. Says there's a high chance of mislynch on D1, which apparently is his reason for not even trying. Again points fingers at cavjj.

#131: Votes me in RVS style for insulting him playfully. This is D2, RVS ended a while ago.

#134: Confirms my idea that they rolecopped Jester and killed someone else to avoid the doc. Says he forgot the 2of4 rolecop mechanic. Commenting on the "challenge" this game provides and acting up to it seems to be more excuse to act unaffected by my pressure on him. He "guesses" he'll vote for cavjj because his awkward defenses make it look like he planned the hammer/excuses all along? What? Criticizing his poor excuses yet saying they're good enough to have been planned? DC has voted a lot of people and even lynched someone, but hasn't given one good reason yet.

#136: Defends his poor reasoning in cavjj vote with "You never know! Cookie monster!"

I will summarize shortly. I need a break/dinner.

[singersigner]

Vote Count 2.1

cavjj (2): DarkClaymore, whilst
DarkClaymore (2): dicknose, Honest Abel
Honest Abel (0):
whilst (0):
dicknose (0):
I Am Innocent (0):
Wickedestjr (0):

Not Voting (4): cavjj, I Am Innocent, Wickedestjr

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch.

Mod Notes:

Deadline is August 22nd, 2011 12am PST.

[Bricktoes]

Abel, be more scummy so I can be less suspicious of you.

[Honest Abel]

Very interesting since you had a vote on BBmolla yourself and even asked the group "Is anyone else interested in having a go at BBmolla?" the post preceding my vote.

So what exactly "left a bad taste in [your] mouth"

The fact that you didn't have a go at BBmolla. You voted for him, you didn't pressure him or anything. The fact that you used my scumhunting on him as an excuse to vote for him with no reason of your own. Don't taunt me by implying I don't have any reasons to back up my assertions (I see your sarcastic quotes there, buddy!). It will never be true.

So DarKClaymore gave me away, which means he must be scum moreso than me. Or in other words, my scumminess depends on him, right???

Yet you vote me first. Can you explain the thought process there?

Your scumminess doesn't necessarily depend on him. It could depend on cavjj. But you have two newbs following you on two bandwagons that you didn't have any good reason for being on (granted, first bandwagon was a random vote from you; being followed by the same two people both times doesn't seem quite as random, however). That's awfully suspect. I voted you first because I thought you might show up and try to be the big man in town supporting why cavjj is a big scummo for hammering, even though odds are you used his itch to end D1 as fast as possible to your advantage.

Re: Underlined, that could be said about many players. So why scumhunter amongst the other players not named wicked. I don't know why, he definitely was not the most townie of other players D1. That was my point.

I thought about this after an earlier post of mine, but now's a good time to bring it up. If I were scum, and I were not me, following my earlier criteria I would have killed either Scumhunter, you, or me. Considering hypothetically for a moment that you are scum, I believe you would have chosen Scumhunter over me. Even though he and I were on the mislynch bandwagon with you, I gave a lot more reasoning about it than he did why BBmolla was scum. Meaning I have more potential to be misleading, meaning I'm more useful kept alive. It's clear that I was wrong. I would have used such a thing to my advantage if I were scum, too. And in fact, I did in Newbie 1092, where the IC Thor665 was completely leading the game around, but was actually totally wrong about everything. That's the kind of guy you keep alive. Thaaaaat's me! At least I hope only for D1.

[Honest Abel]

Oh, right, the other thing I wanted to mention is that I switched my vote to DarkClaymore simply because he was here and talking for a bit. I pressure the people who are here. I like conversing when people are here to converse with me. I will gladly switch it back to you if that's what you'd prefer, but let's not trouble the mod more than we need, eh?

[I Am Innocent]

Let's get this out of the way: If you were mafia, who would you have killed N1 and why?

The more I think about this line of questioning, the more I think it does more damage than good.

I want to hear if our IC agrees

, but here is one case in point:

Also, nobody would be going after the IC after my question about N0, would they?

Did this give free rein for the scum to take out anyone not named Wicked N1? Would it benefit the scum team greatly to put it in the head of any doc that they would be crazy not to protect the IC?

Also, for anyone not pretending day one's lynch was a good thing, who would you have preferred to lynch instead?

Knowing what I know now, cavjj.

Knowing what I knew then (as of page 4), BBmolla.

Knowing what I should have known after 10-15 pages of discussion D1, we'll never know cause it never happened...

I was already growing weary of I Am Innocent and DarkClaymore Day 1

Really, I saw no sign of this...can you please point to any of your posts that show this?

I saw you pushing BBmolla instead. If you were growing weary of us, why did you not unvote BBmolla? Your story is just not lining up correctly.

[I Am Innocent]

Re Post 163:

You say "The fact that you didn't have a go at BBmolla. You voted for him, you didn't pressure him or anything." Isn't voting for someone pressuring them?

You say "The fact that you used my scumhunting on him as an excuse to vote for him with no reason of your own." I had a reason. I had a whole slew of reasons. I just did not state them at the time. It was Page 4, I wanted to see how people, including BBmolla, reacted to my Top 2 scum list and my L-2 vote on BBmolla. I had no idea two people would jump on and end the day that quickly. I do not think I have ever seen a D1 that was 8 pages, let alone 4.

I will dig up something from an old game as meta for my D1 play. Hold on while I find it...

[I Am Innocent]

Here is a game where I was town and nailed scum on Page 3. Though I don't reveal who I think it was until later in the game:

....
I noticed that too: "It confuses the town less"

I've heard people ask other players a number of times to get an avatar cause it helps them track things better, but that was the first time I ever heard it said that it specifically helps town by doing it (or it confuses the town less).

Seemed like a stretch to try to group himself in as a townie.

unvote
vote: Spadille

FTR, Spadille is my #2 suspect currently. Someone else has also pinged my scumdarbut I'm going to keep that one on the down low and just watch that person a little while longer...

....
Voted the person that has not been voted yet. (Safe vote)
Voted the lurker. (Easy target for scum)

This was my first tip-off.

The fact he is laying low could have to do with his 3rd (and last post):
....
How ironic that he votes a lurker early on, yet who is lurking now?

My guess, Diddin or Spadille is his partner and the other wagon is Kiari, who he already has a vote on. My guess is he found it easier to play the "busy" persona and just leave his vote on the person opposite his teammate's wagon...

Usually don't do this, but going all in early on D1:

unvote
vote: DerbyBolts

Reason being, if Kiari gets lynched and flips town, I am a goner N1 for sure.

Vinegar, you scare me. You wreak of townie, but the lynch Kiari, if Kiari flips town then lynch Diddin D2 philosophy has caused many a town to lose games like that in the past. You start pushing that crap, you better be 99.9% sure that one of them is scum. I don't see it all with Kiari and only a fair amount with Diddin.

Like I said, Page 4/Post 91 is not usually when I go all in. In that particular game, everyone was going after VI kiari and I was trying to prevent a townie mislynch.

[whilst]

Okay whilst, I admit I wasn't reading thoroughly enough and may have been too harsh in my reaction, but can you understand that it is frustrating when you won't post and then only post about two of the biggest suspects other people have? Not sharing what very well may be helpful is pretty anti-town.

Yeah--I mean, I would also be suspicious of someone else who didn't want to post their opinion. I don't know why, I don't want to tell anyone if I think he or she is innocent to me; I don't want their behavior to change because of me (or do I, so I could point it out?)....but that'd be disastrous, it'd give other players a reason not to contribute. Yeah, I'll be more upfront (overall). My thoughts on the rest of the living town (I refuse to assign numbers to "how scummy" everyone is, it'll be misconstrued.):

Wickedestjr

While his only attack against me was something Abel brought up (and I addressed here, in

#75

, he hasn't said anything else at me. I don't know if he's cleared me of suspicion or not, but I have yet to formulate a complete opinion on him. I'm waiting for his reactions to N1 and the current D2 discussions.

I Am Innocent

He stated that his strategy was to make people take stances

#47

, and so people have. He also expressed concern towards me of not taking a stance (but wasn't as pressing as dicknose has been),

#85

so he has shown continuity. I read over his D2 reactions, and do agree with his points. Unlike Abel, I do not find him too suspicious. Frankly, I think Abel is drilling him for a reaction. But are you reading this or their current discussion? Heh. If anything changes in my mind from their discussion, I'll post an opinion accordingly.

Like I said, Page 4/Post 91 is not usually when I go all in. In that particular game, everyone was going after VI kiari and I was trying to prevent a townie mislynch.

I don't think you need to use a previous game's example to help clarify your point. You could be a completely different person--especially with a different role. Just saying, I don't think anyone should be allowed to use material outside of this game to help with anything other than newbie confusion. Again, just my opinion.

Honest Abel

Speaking of Abel. He's certainly been posting the most (if not in post count, then most in

volume

), which can still go both townie or scum--but he's been promoting discussion the entire game (I don't think I have to link to anything). He was brought to L-1 before, and didn't respond in a panicky manner. Either he can keep his cool, or he can keep his cool. The biggest point I have here is that none of his discussions have dragged on for "pointless" reasons: His argument with BBmolla was short lived (see pages 2 and 3). Even after I pointed out that it "appeared" to be scummy in nature, their discussion went onwards. So much for a reaction.

dicknose

Finally, dicknose. (I posted about cavjj and DarkClaymore

earlier

). I guess if he didn't press me enough, I would've have started typing this either. Granted it's to see if I will trip up and possibly expose myself as mafia, it's something I'm expect him to extend to other players who do not honor their 'promises to post'. I don't have much else to say about him, other than his active play style. Unless I missed it, I can't quote a post by anyone else with a negative reaction to his posts. So I guess all is good? Well, just this small thing:

dicknose

, I want to know why you took your vote off of cavjj at post

#124

. It doesn't seem as if cavjj adequately responded to your inquiries (which is just my opinion). Just a clarification please.

I've adopted a better style of formatting (other players have too), more or less. Hyper-linking to posts helps with clarification. It's a bit tedious to format, but I urge everyone else to follow suit if he/she decides to make longer posts.

[Bricktoes]

I didn't unvote. Vote counts are reset after a lynching. I voted Dark Claymore today because he was the scummiest person I was looking at with the least posts. I voted him to get him to talk and I stand by that.

Vote: DarkClaymore

. Let's hear it, bub.

[Bricktoes]

It being more.

[Honest Abel]

The more I think about this line of questioning, the more I think it does more damage than good.

I want to hear if our IC agrees

, but here is one case in point:

Also, nobody would be going after the IC after my question about N0, would they?

Did this give free rein for the scum to take out anyone not named Wicked N1? Would it benefit the scum team greatly to put it in the head of any doc that they would be crazy not to protect the IC?

Glad you found the time to respond to only that part of the post. That was my Purposely Weak Argument. Ding ding ding.

I was already growing weary of I Am Innocent and DarkClaymore Day 1

Really, I saw no sign of this...can you please point to any of your posts that show this?

You weren't supposed to see any sign of this. Need I bring Napoleon back to life? I wouldn't have mentioned it at all that early in D2 if the vote counts weren't so damn obvious. I was planning to go after cavjj and see how you guys responded. Anyway, DC is voting on cavjj and you list him among your only two suspects along with your buddy. Isn't that a pretty common tell, by the way?

I saw you pushing BBmolla instead. If you were growing weary of us, why did you not unvote BBmolla? Your story is just not lining up correctly.

Already explained this. If I were around to unvote BBmolla at L-1, I would have. I found your vote very offputting, but went to sleep hoping you'd talk more or something else of value would happen. Instead we have your buddy following you again and newbtown rushing the hammer.

Your weak line of defense and counterattack isn't doing you any favors, here.

[Honest Abel]

I guess it's called Deliberately Weak Argument, sorry.

[Honest Abel]

Voting for someone is not pressuring him if you don't give reasons. I don't care about your slew of reasons because you never brought them up and now never will have to. The "vote first and give reasons later" attitude seems useless. You're also defending yourself by saying you do what you're criticizing me of doing, which is suspecting someone without revealing your intentions right away. Seems like a conflict of interests there.

On a related now, how are #166 or #167 protown? Not seeing it. You're talking about yourself in an almost totally tangential manner.

[singersigner]

Mod Notes:

• Deadline is August 22nd, 2011 12am PST.
  
• Please don't forget that red and blue are reserved colors for the mod. Using a variant of either can be misconstrued as imitating the mod, and is grounds for a modkill. As the post in question was not actually a color tag, there's no penalty, just a friendly reminder of things to avoid. Thanks!