Mini 1193: Hacker's Panic mafia. (Game Over)

[don_johnson]

i have some things to take care of today, but as long as i'm alive i will continue to post content. iso's will come next. not sure what else i have to do to convince people i am town, but regardless, i would appreciate the chance to post more before i'm lynched if thats what we choose.

[CooLskins]

Okay, catching up. CooLDoG really sucks at quote tags BTW.

---

Okay Don, now you say that Parama is town because of the of the improbability of bobsnox tracking two different goons who didn't make the kill. That makes sense. However, yesterday you said that you thought parama was scum whether bobsnox was telling the truth or not. But now because bobsnox is telling the truth you believe Parama to be town. Do I get you right?

So that means that you lied.

Coolskins...can you provide a quote where don made the statements you are attributing to him above?

Certainly.

parama, i don't think you're reading correctly.

i thought i clearly stated that your actions were scummy independent of bobs alignment

, not the other way around. the fact that you claim to have picked up his softclaim(no way in hell you interpreted him as "tracker", so you had to think he was most likely cop), and when he claimed a much less reliable role, you haven't questioned it one bit. thats odd to me.

^Don saying that his case on parama was not based off of association with Bob^

the xvart/parama connection and why i think they are town

parama is town due to statistical improbability of him being scum, imo. if parama is scum, then that would mean that bob successfully tracked scum two different scum, two nights in a row, both of whom were vanilla and neither of whom tried to kill anyone. there is a small window where parama can be scum, but if he is, he has most likely already won the game, so i have to go by numbers, and statistic improbability is generally reliable.

xvart is town based on his level headed posting. even though he made a case against bob(confirmed town), the case had merit and pointed out several inconsistencies in bobs play. also, and here's the kicker, bob came after me early which is a bad play for scum. the "one neighbor must be scum" fallacy is a common case, and if xvart was scum it would not be in his best interest to have me flip town. secondly, i detailed my suspicions of parama/bob in the qt at night. the way i initially read their play was that i thought they might be claiming "masons", which made no sense with neighbors in the game. x and i briefly discussed this, but when i brought to his attention that they were confirming each other he said he didn't even notice. xvartscum should have immediately relayed that to the scum qt which should have led to a bob/parama nk, because the logical explanation is that one of them was cop. but they both lived through the night.

therefore, the only way i can see xvart scum is with paramascum. xvart would have brought his knowledge to the qt, and parama would have said "no, he has me confirmed somehow, lets see if we can use him. seeing as how they then lynched scum with parama infull force, i highly doubt this scenario.

therefore i believe them both to be town.

^Don saying Parama is town solely off of the fact that bob flipped^

But...

I think we should lynch fitz today. Despite DJ terrible contradiction, fitz takes the scummy pie today for creating a crap case on now-confirmed town to protect a scumbud. Interesting looking back how he said he "didn't really notice Zodiark" when Zodiark was the leading wagon. And yet he noticed Bobs who hadn't really done much up until the case was made against him. And Kondi's wanton L-1 on D-1 still rings fresh in my mind.

Seriously, why hasn't this slot been lynch yet?

So I should be lynched today but you're voting don. "Scummy pie?" Why is my crap case and how the he|| is xvart confirmed town? And what scumbud am I protecting by voting xvart? don? You're just making shit up as you type...aren't you? Speaking of making shit up, I never said this, "didn't really notice Zodiark." Are you that _____ to completely fabricate a quote in order to substantiate suspicions on someone? Your comments re: bob are ridiculous...I noticed him because he was the scummiest player IMO until I reconsidered his claim. And why is someone who made 5 posts early in the game the basis for thinking I am worth a vote? What did kondi do that was so scummy and did antihero do anything to add to those suspicions?

Wow, you totally misunderstood everything I said there, bucko. Bobsnox was the confirmed town that I was referring to. You made a crap case on a now-confirmed town (bobsnox) simply to protect your scumbud (Zodiark). I think the confusion arises from Xvart when he said:

Referring to my bolded emphasis I assume you are talking about me since fitz is voting me, but how am I confirmed town now?

Which was a total misunderstanding.

Also, I admit that you never said "didn't really notice Zodiark". You said:

Zodiark did not stand out in my read

Which essentially means the same thing. Score one for scum-spin.

Coolskins...you guys are the worst hydra I ever ever played with. You don't seem to agree with each other and you keep making excuses based on the other's play.

You know how much I love positive reinforcement.

[quote="Imagine]Also, on reading AntiHero and havingfitz's interactions with Zodiark, I'm having doubts about my earlier read on them. I think my points against them are reasonable, and the L-1 vote on Beck is clearly worse than the xvart's on the hrezs wagon. But, looking more at AH and havingfitz's interactions with Zodiark as per havingfitz's request, I see AntiHero was first to point out Zodiark's contradiction, which led to the wagon on him. But, if this was bussing, agreed in advance, then havingfitz would have stuck with AntiHero's scum-read on Zodiark when he replaced in, rather than weakening.[/quote]

I disagree completely. Antihero spent most of his time attacking Celiboski, who was an easy scumtarget for a mislynch becaue of the hammer. Also, he didn't push Zodiark much at all, and he only mentioned the slip in passing. I don't think that bit is enough to dismiss the otherwise very strong case against the fitz player slot.

-Bub

[CooLskins]

Don's 180 on us is interesting, because it appears to be a scum appeal to get us of his wagon and to sound more reasonable. I also find it funny that only now (after a long text wall war) does Don actually look back to determine if we are scummy or not.

-Bub

[don_johnson]

You are not paying attention. This whole parama is town because of bobs flip is ignoring everything I hav said. Parama was scummier than bob because he never questioned why or how bob was clearing him. Never. This town is doomed. Maybe my 180 is because I am being reasonable. Both you and parama point out towntells and then say "he must be scum". It makes no sense.

[CooLskins]

Am I going to have to read all of this? Apparently...

I might have to do this over two posts... or more.

~CooLDoG

[Humble Poirot]

Those in danger of being exposed #21:

don_johnson (2)

- Parama, CooLskins,

CooLskins (2)

- xvart, imaginality,

Not Voting (3)

- deselby, don_johnson, havingfitz,

With 7 Alive it takes 4 to lynch.

[CooLskins]

Coolskins...you guys are the worst hydra I ever ever played with. You don't seem to agree with each other and you keep making excuses based on the other's play. If I didn't think xvart was scum you would be my top suspect. The only reason I don't atm is today's interactions with xvart and your D3 crusade against Zodiark.

okay, "Since these two people do not have the exact same point of view they must be scum" argument. Great, its worth a vote for sure!

* the much-discussed change of read on Zodiark
* 310 - regards don's role pm discussion (245,254) as a strong town read, then drops this point completely when he attacks him later
* 321 - trying to defend his read as 'no worse than' than Zodiark's contradiction
* 416 - listing Zodiark in his number 2 scum spot while supporting the lynch of a townie
* 518 - the 'seriously, why hasn't [fitz] been lynched yet' sounds off, gut-wise
* 557 - accusing xvart of chainsaw-defending don_johnson by attacking CooLskins
* bonus: pretty sure only one of CooLskins and don_johnson is scum based on the way they've been arguing, so it makes sense to lynch one of the two, and CooLskins looks scummier to me

1) Don keeps asking and so I keep giving. Until people understand what our actual position(s) were, then I will have to keep explaining.
2) That's bub ask him. But its all wifom bullshit (don pm having scum qt. Why hasn't he told us who had posted in there? Why wasn't the game re-randomed?).

@Don, who had posted in that there scum qt?

3) How do you know that don is town????????????????????? Or are you talking about my

#3

scum suspect?
4) Gut gut gut....
5) 557, and how has he not? Chainsaw def only works once we have a flip, so lets lynch don. No really there is no reason what so ever for don to be alive. I would self hammer myself right here and now if you guys promised to lynch don. That's no joke.
6) vote for don. If he flips town then you can lynch me. Or vise versa if you prefer.
----------

good posting

I am so tempted to quote that fucker

. No really. All of those points outline why don should get lynched right now. I want to see don's response.

-----

I've only been in one game with CoolDog before and he came across as a major Vi IMO...the fact he did not suspect Zodiark prior to Bub placing their Zodiark vote on D2 means little to me. The fact is...they could have easily put bobsnox (who came across as scummy to me prior to his claim) at L-1 without bringing more support to a scumbuddie's wagon. And then to immediately jump on the Zodiark wagon again on D3 just seems like excessive and unneccesary bussing.

tl:dr; Despite Coolskins' crap play I am inclined to think he is town. Despite xvart's very well spoken and rational play...you can not ignore his actions which have been completely in line with benefitting scum. Three days worth of vote outcomes point a VCA straight your way.

So now I'm town? What changed?

Here is a good place to insert this:
IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER WHO IS NEIGHBORED TO WHO. ALL THAT MATTERS IS THAT WE HAVE DON PLAYING REALLY SCUMMY AND HE NEEDS TO BE LYNCHED. ONCE HE FLIPS SCUM THEN START WIFOMING THE SHIT OUT OF THE NEIGHBOR STUFF. HIS ROLE IS (in this case) IRRELEVANT TO HIS SCUMMINESS.
------------

Fine...based primarily on his vote outside of his three person lynch pool I'll accept his suspicion. If he flips scum neighbor I'll apologize to confirmed town xvart be he dead or alive. don scum will point to dselby IMO. don town should focus attention on xvart.

VOTE: don_johnson

Again, just because don flips scum does not mean that xvart is cleared. They could scum gambit neighbor claim. However, I feel that that is unlikely because IO have a town read on xvart. A+ vote, we need more of them.
---------

Good stopping point so I can read over the don responses.

~CooLDoG

[CooLskins]

I don't want to refute for someone, but some things really stand out.

i was not part of the quick lynch on a town power role. my comment came well before the scumminess occurred.

This is irrelevant. Just because you were not on the lynch wagon does not mean you didn't support with it or agree with it.
The post quoted (

beck wagon is good. he has no sense of humor.

) heavily implies that you agree with the wagon, and that lynching him would be a good lynch.

see, i can do it to. silly parama, the beck wagon was good when i said it was good. later, it turned ugly. not my fault. last i heard, not mislynching townies is a town tell.

Yet you still thought it was a good lynch. And also keep in mind that you are talking retroactively about the wagon. Your thoughts about the wagon (and what you "thought" about then might be skewed) now are most certainly heavily swayed by the town flip. But you didn't post much of anything d-1, so you are excused.

i didn't dodge the question. the question was stupid. you even said so yourself.

If it was so stupid why didn't you link to a post where you scum hunted???????????????????????? It aparently wasn't stupid because you weren't able to answer it. Link me a post prior to that one where you were actually scum hunting. And link me to a post that you made that is "pro-town", and beak it up shpwing exactly how it is pro-town. Do this or get hounded by me. I will trash your wiki page <- I hope that comes out as a joke.


ooops the next one is bad....
[quote"

parama

"]1. "lack of a sense of humor" isn't a scumtell
2. link me some games?
3. so you knew enough to know that there was a wagon on Beck, and that he lacked a sense of humor, one of your "scumtells", yet you "weren't paying enough attention" to justify voting him? BS.[/quote]

1. we disagree.
2. no. that's mildly retarded. if you want to sift through my games, feel free. i don't live in the past.
3. no bs. but i guess all i can do is say what i say. you are obviously tunneled at this point(or like, a week ago.) and yet, you're still alive even though i pointed out the blatant connection between you and bob early on. and bob lived the night after that as well. hm. if you are town, you should start using your brain.

1) Show us why.
2) SO you can't prove it? PROVE to US WHY IT IS A SCUM TELL. And why are you not answering the question. Stop justifying your bullshit reasons.
3) One helluva dodge.

moving on now...

?? thats a bit of a stretch. if you characterize my post as a "soft defense of zod", then you also have to characterize blok's post as the same. he couldn't defend the hammer because it was terrible.

I hope parama gets onto your harder deffing of zodiark. You were defending him though. Look up some of my walls and you will find the quotes...

uh. no. not responsible AT FUCKING ALL. I was nowhere near this thread while you idiots were lynching a claimed fucking power role. so sorry. my "beck wagon is good" came before the claim. lynching a claimed town power role without a counterclaim on day one is dumb. everyone who participated in the lynch after the claim is dumb. are we clear?

So it was a great wagon and I supported it, but because I didn't vote on it, i'm not responsible. Get lynched.

[deselby]

don scum will point to dselby IMO. don town should focus attention on xvart.

Can you expand on these assertions?

me using odds to supplement my reads is just common sense. even though image dropped the real stats(which prove you just as likely to be scum as anyone in that situation), i as a player am left with a choice: solidify reads or not. i chose to solidify mine on you, even though your posts read terrible imo. as an example, please see above where you give evidence of pro-town maveuvres dj makes, and yet call dj scum for them.

@don, you “solidified” your read based on stats that don’t add up, and posting that suggested the opposite???
I want to hammer you for this and your "don't lynch a neighbour" policy. Any reason I shouldn't?

Don - you didn't address my concerns at all. You have posted 4 times without even referring to them. Then you call skins town and me scum, then at the end of the same post you include skins in your scum pool.
As fitz unvoted, this is not a hammer

vote : don_johnson. L-1

And fitz, there is a question there for you too.

[deselby]

i think we're better off letting imaginality in here before we end the day.

Imaginality, no need to rush your post, be thorough. I very much doubt anyone will hammer before you post (within reason of course).

On second thoughts imag, maybe get a move on just in case someone does hammer....

zod had self hammered.

i don't know. fitz/imag/des/xvart has to be the pool. i'll start isos soon. outside chance of parama scum, but like i said, if he's scum then we've already lost.

sorry skins.

What are you getting at here?

[xvart]

FMPOV, if xvart is town then that means you or Coolskins are scum. Why? Because there is no way in hell that there were no scum on Beck's seven person mislynch and I know I am not scum,

which means you, Coolskins, or xvart are scum.

Fine...based primarily on his vote outside of his three person lynch pool I'll accept his suspicion. If he flips scum neighbor I'll apologize to confirmed town xvart be he dead or alive. don scum will point to dselby IMO. don town should focus attention on xvart.

VOTE: don_johnson

This is a terrible vote hop. And considering your 587 post and this vote hope it seems you should be voting either Parama or CooLskins, if you all of the sudden think I'm town (unless you think don and I are both scum fake claiming neighbors).

xvart is town because DJ is scum.

Statements like these really worry me.

Again, just because don flips scum does not mean that xvart is cleared. They could scum gambit neighbor claim. However, I feel that that is unlikely because IO have a town read on xvart. A+ vote, we need more of them.

Scum posting. This ambiguous read on my alignment pending a don flip is ridiculous, because no matter what he flips you will have the answer handed to you on a plate. Either he will flip scum neighbor, town neighbor, or scum role. In all of those scenarios how is my alignment ambiguous? You mistakenly soft peddled about my alignment without actually thinking it through to leave yourself outs tomorrow. In fact, your soft "townread" on me looks an awful lot like you trying to appease me to get off your wagon, which is something you accused don of doing.

Oh, and CooLdog - Bub must have missed your memo to him about his responsibility of responding to me.

We should absolutely be lynching CooLskins today, as his alignment is scum independent of don's alignment; plus, a CooLskin scum flip gives us a ton of information about Parama's alignment to discuss tomorrow.

[havingfitz]

FMPOV, if xvart is town then that means you or Coolskins are scum. Why? Because there is no way in hell that there were no scum on Beck's seven person mislynch and I know I am not scum,

which means you, Coolskins, or xvart are scum.

Fine...based primarily on his vote outside of his three person lynch pool I'll accept his suspicion. If he flips scum neighbor I'll apologize to confirmed town xvart be he dead or alive. don scum will point to dselby IMO. don town should focus attention on xvart.

VOTE: don_johnson

This is a terrible vote hop. And considering your 587 post and this vote hope it seems you should be voting either Parama or CooLskins, if you all of the sudden think I'm town (unless you think don and I are both scum fake claiming neighbors).

I don't think you are town....but as I do not know who is town and who isn't, doubt comes into play. I didn't care for the fact that don had a pool of three players he thought was scum but was voting outside of that pool so parama was able to talk me into switching. In case you did not notice, the aforementioned doubt led to an unvote so the "terrible vote hop" is no more (atm).

[xvart]

I don't think you are town....but as I do not know who is town and who isn't, doubt comes into play. I didn't care for the fact that don had a pool of three players he thought was scum but was voting outside of that pool so parama was able to talk me into switching. In case you did not notice, the aforementioned doubt led to an unvote so the "terrible vote hop" is no more (atm).

Okay, the fact that you unvoted does not negate the terrible vote hop that did occur prior to your unexplained unvote. And if you "don't think

am town" then why aren't you voting me? Or anyone? Is it because your suspicions are now all muddled by your own previous statements and you being so easily influenced by other players that you don't know where you can legitimately justify a vote now?

[don_johnson]

Des: please list your concerns in an easy to read format. Not sure which ones I didnt address, especially considering that the post you quoted only contained one question(the other being rhetorical).

Skins, can you do the same. I.e. write 1) first question 2) second question etc.

I may be better able to answer that way. Thanks. These wall posts are getting out of control and seem to be distracting as both of you seem to be missing my responses.

Parama: same to you if you have any questions you want answered.

[don_johnson]

Time ran out for me. I work the next 3 days and so will check in at night, but iso has to wait. Anytime you guys want to line up the questions, feel free.

[deselby]

@don- fair enough, my concerns are here:

1) You said you "solidified" your read (of town parama) based on a statistical point you concede is wrong, and on his posting which you think is scummy (see post 596). How is this valid? Also, you mention in 599 that there is only an "outside chance of parama scum" despite the above points. This is a serious contradiction.

2) "lynching neighbours is a bad idea" (538).The first, second and last sentence in your argument obviously only apply IF you are both town, so pointless. The rest is saying "ignore the scum in the neighbourhood fallacy". Ok, but IF there is scum in the hood, we should lynch, and you seem to propose an equally fallacious "no scum in hood" position. I just really disliked this post, and can only see sum motivation for posting it - ie to make town reluctant to lynch a neighbour (very probably you at this opoint) in any circumstance. I guess I don't have a direct question for you here, other than "why am I wrong about it?". If you read your post again, do you stand by it, or do you want to add/retract anything?

3)In 599 you say you think coolskins is town twice, and then at the end of the post you include him in your lynch pool. A clear contradiction, can you explain this?

4) See my post 609. I don't know what you mean here, re the self hammer.

Coolskins may be unhppy at my lack of quoting, but i think it is clear what i am referring to if you look up the posts. Some of the huge posts in this game are not easy to read, and therefore probably unhelpful to town.

[don_johnson]

Thanks des. On my phone now. Ill answer the rest tomorrow night, but quickly, if you reread 599 skins is not in the lynch pool. Id feel more comfortable if you unvoted for a while. I will be busy the next few days and I would like to be sure and get some final thoughts into the thread if I am to be lynched.

[havingfitz]

I'm behind in this game and a few others (aka all my games)...I'll try to catch up tomorrow.

[Parama]

I've been not posting because I'm too lazy to respond to DJ making my wall-o-text even bigger
Will do stuff tomorrow I guess.

[deselby]

Thanks des. On my phone now. Ill answer the rest tomorrow night, but quickly, if you reread 599 skins is not in the lynch pool. Id feel more comfortable if you unvoted for a while. I will be busy the next few days and I would like to be sure and get some final thoughts into the thread if I am to be lynched.

Ok, I misread that post. Retract point 3).

unvote

, we have enough time, but my vote is still "on" you.

[deselby]

Don- re 599, you have xvart in the lynch pool, but you have said (eg 594) you think he is town. So 3) kind of stands actually, albeit in a modified form...

[Humble Poirot]

Those in danger of being exposed #22:

don_johnson (2)

- Parama, CooLskins,

CooLskins (2)

- xvart, imaginality,

Not Voting (3)

- deselby, don_johnson, havingfitz,

With 7 Alive it takes 4 to lynch.

[havingfitz]

I don't think you are town....but as I do not know who is town and who isn't, doubt comes into play. I didn't care for the fact that don had a pool of three players he thought was scum but was voting outside of that pool so parama was able to talk me into switching. In case you did not notice, the aforementioned doubt led to an unvote so the "terrible vote hop" is no more (atm).

Okay, the fact that you unvoted does not negate the terrible vote hop that did occur prior to your unexplained unvote. And if you "don't think

am town" then why aren't you voting me? Or anyone? Is it because your suspicions are now all muddled by your own previous statements and you being so easily influenced by other players that you don't know where you can legitimately justify a vote now?

Why was it a terrible vote hop?
Do unvotes need to be explained?
I'm not voting you atm because there was no rush to put my vote back on you. 0 votes or 1 votes...either way it's not doing much there.
And I'm not worried about "legitimately justifying" my votes. I'll vote for who I suspect and provide my reasons when I do.

[xvart]

Why was it a terrible vote hop?
Do unvotes need to be explained?
I'm not voting you atm because there was no rush to put my vote back on you. 0 votes or 1 votes...either way it's not doing much there.
And I'm not worried about "legitimately justifying" my votes. I'll vote for who I suspect and provide my reasons when I do.

It was a terrible vote hope for obvious reasons, but first we need to clear something up. Don and I are either neighbors OR we are both scum fake claiming neighbors. For the sake of argument, I'm going to eliminate us being scum fake claiming because it is ridiculous and I know it isn't the case, so that leaves us as neighbors. If you want to make the argument that we are both scum go ahead, but from your posting I don't think you believe this to be the case. So that leaves don and me as neighbors. So the following possibilities exist:

1. I am town, don is town;
   
2. I am town, don is scum; or,
   
3. I am scum, don is town.

As neighbors, it is impossible for us to both be scum; yet you vote hop from me to don which basically suggests that you don't think your case on me was very good to begin with. It is a terrible vote hop because you were so easily influenced to vote for someone who had to be town based on the case you presented for me being scum.

Do unvotes need to be explained?

Unvotes obviously do not

need

to be explained but there is an inherent scum motivation for not explaining an unvote when it follows vote hopping on someone who had to be town based on the case you previously presented.

I'm not voting you atm because there was no rush to put my vote back on you. 0 votes or 1 votes...either way it's not doing much there.

Conversely, your vote would be doing more on me than it would in the not voting column, and if there was no rush or fear of ending the day why not place the vote back on me?

I'll vote for who I suspect and provide my reasons when I do.

And you'll not provide reasons for not voting anyone as it currently stands. Got it.

I can't remember and haven't gone back to look at their connections but does anyone else think Fitz/Kondi and CooLskins could be a likely scum pair?

[Humble Poirot]

* Imaginality has been prodded. - HP