[Mini 1205] Tough Guy Mafia - Game Over!

[Wickedestjr]

Also, el simo, why do you want to lynch somebody who's claimed cop?

[el simo]

Yes, but your case A) outweighs bobs and B) indicates bob as town.

Rdash's (your supposed buddy) instant support of your claim suggests to me that it may not be authentic. Nobody else seems to care so far, so that strikes me as a pretty telling action. You also have been as uncop like as you can get in a mafia game, you have nothing to support your claim with other than your claim itself. I don't have a problem continuing with your lynch today.

[tarsonisocelot]

I know I started and pushed the wagon on bob, but I'd be damned if I'm allowing a lynch to form that quickly on someone with out anyone mentioning as much as even why they're voting him.

I've said why before.
Just because you didn't notice or disagree doesn't mean it wasn't said.

UNVOTE:
Not willing to lynch a claimed cop on D1 without a really good case.
Will decide how best to proceed later today.

[Wickedestjr]

You also have been as uncop like as you can get in a mafia game, you have nothing to support your claim with other than your claim itself. I don't have a problem continuing with your lynch today.

How has my play been uncop like?

[Wickedestjr]

Also, el simo, what was wrong with my defense?

[Horrifying Hero]

But I guess I

should

claim, even though I really didn't want to. I'm a cop. Nice work guys.

So...let me get this straight:

You, a "cop", sees a 'Miller' claim, and...

...You're distrustful of it?!?

HELL NO.

Confirm Vote.

~Lat.

[Wickedestjr]

Two things:
1. I was never distrustful of the miller claim. I ignored the claim completely.
2. Most mafia games have cops but millers aren't nearly as common. A cop being in the game doesn't mean there has to be a miller.

[Horrifying Hero]

1. I was never distrustful of the miller claim.

Really, now? Then mind explaining this?

I had a slight reason to doubt the miller claim

, but there wasn't really anything I thought I could do to pressure you.

If anything, this was setting up something like a tracker claim, since that'd give you a reason to doubt a miller being in the game.

But a cop?

NO FUCKING WAY DOES A COP POST THAT.

~Lat

[LobsterCatapult]

But I guess I

should

claim, even though I really didn't want to. I'm a cop. Nice work guys.

So...let me get this straight:

You, a "cop", sees a 'Miller' claim, and...

...You're distrustful of it?!?

HELL NO.

Confirm Vote.

~Lat.

-wait what? i've seen scum claim miller d1...what does being a cop have anything to do with being distrustful of a miller claim? scum and miller both scan guilty. am i missing something?

This. stupid. game.

wicked's 550 is scummy.

>_>

but i dont want to lynch a claimed cop d1.

im

unvoting

i don't know if scum would fake claim cop here to try to pry the real cop out. i need to iso wicked myself, i dont like HH trumpeting here. its too close to deadline for this shit.

pedit...ok my brain must be really missing something. but can you PLEASE explain to me why a cop shouldn't be distrustful of scum claiming miller? it JUST happened in [redacted]. like....im beyond confused.

[Horrifying Hero]

Millers are a role MADE to be in setups with a Cop. YOU DON'T FUCKING IGNORE/DISTRUST A MILLER CLAIM AS A COP.

~Lat

[bobsnox]

I now think Wicked is scum. el simo and HH are right. I was about to say what el simo said word for word. You don't play like that if you're a cop.

[Wickedestjr]

1. I was never distrustful of the miller claim.

Really, now? Then mind explaining this?

I had a slight reason to doubt the miller claim

, but there wasn't really anything I thought I could do to pressure you.

If anything, this was setting up something like a tracker claim, since that'd give you a reason to doubt a miller being in the game.

But a cop?

NO FUCKING WAY DOES A COP POST THAT.

~Lat

Why don't you read the thread again? I gave my reason for having a slight doubt about your miller claim. You even acknowledged it. I wasn't setting myself up to claim tracker. And if I was, then why would I claim cop? This post is stupid.

Millers are a role MADE to be in setups with a Cop. YOU DON'T FUCKING IGNORE/DISTRUST A MILLER CLAIM AS A COP.

~Lat

Are you freaking kidding me? It doesn't work both ways. A miller implies a cop, but a cop in now way implies that there is a miller in the game. How about you actually do some decent scumhunting instead of trying to confirm your scumread based off of weak fluff?

[LobsterCatapult]

Millers are a role MADE to be in setups with a Cop. YOU DON'T FUCKING IGNORE/DISTRUST A MILLER CLAIM AS A COP.

~Lat

oh....

>_> idk. to me it would still be easy for a scum to assume there is some sort of investigation role and claim it anyway. i think itd be unwise to flat out not believe that there is a miller in a game, but i am not sure if thats what he was doing.

i dont see the miller thing being a scum tell...per se. there are other things he is doing that are suspect.

is wicked at L-1? if not, bob is still scummy.

[HezLucky]

I don't believe Wicked's claim but I don't lynch claimed cops on Day 1 (check my wiki page for my meta on that)

last time someone claimed cop (Open 302) day 1 i didn't believe him either and he was the cop.

[Rainbowdash]

HH you need to check yourself here. Even if Wicked is scum, and by NO means is he obviously town in this situation, we don't lynch him today given that there are a ton of ways he gets caught as scum, and that even one result which sure as hay better be on a middle ground player and not Avas or Vifam, is going to be ultra valueable as town.

Now for playing theory, its a little off center of what I would expect, but at the same time not at all surpirsing to be more paranoid of a miller claim than an average player. Cop is powerful, and its power is even more in small games as it can decimate scum. This means that there are counters which we normally see in the shape of a RBer or Godfather. Assuming worst case scenario from the stance of Wicked, its three scum with a GF and HH is fakeclaiming miller rendering his role next to useless. Either way, you have what I think is the second strongest investigative role in the game behind watcher, and its perfectly natural to wonder if someone is trying to get around it.

I won't vote Wicked today. Tonights actions will likely give us a semiconclusive result on what he really is, which means todays play suddenly becomes

Unvote
Vote: Vifam

Vifam for all you neigh-sayers out there works from both sides of the equation and people keep pushing it from both sides very sharply. HH is convinced that he is scum with Wicked, as well as quite a few other of you. Wicked has him as a somewhat high scum read as well and he works very well with Avas. Today we are lynching him, as he is scummy and actually is a very possible partner to all of our competing wagons.

For those of you who are going to complain about their little pony brains not being able to read this much
1) Wicked is not obviously town, but is a horrible day one lynch
2) Vifam is the perfect day one lynch

[LobsterCatapult]

I don't believe Wicked's claim but I don't lynch claimed cops on Day 1 (check my wiki page for my meta on that)

last time someone claimed cop (Open 302) day 1 i didn't believe him either and he was the cop.

>_> in a game i was scum in off-site, we managed to get the town to rally behind a d1 cop lynch. it was an almost flawless victory from there.

in my newbie game here, i almost tunnel-raged the town cop d1.

wicked's lynch is too risky. and I HATE that bob and rdash reacted they way they did. id....rather lynch someone else to be perfectly honest. like bob or rdash. ill decide tomorrow. also, avast is not making himself look any better, and i want confidanon to come back, along with vifam. can they like get prodded or something?

there are a few ways that his night results can actually clear/convict him.

@HH what do you think of rdash and the vifam vote?

[HezLucky]

wicked's lynch is too risky. and I HATE that bob and rdash reacted they way they did. id....rather lynch someone else to be perfectly honest. like bob or rdash. ill decide tomorrow. also, avast is not making himself look any better, and i want confidanon to come back, along with vifam. can they like get prodded or something?

Hey, I would love to lynch rainbow. Still not sure what this business on bob is though.

[el simo]

Are you freaking kidding me? It doesn't work both ways. A miller implies a cop, but a cop in now way implies that there is a miller in the game. How about you actually do some decent scumhunting instead of trying to confirm your scumread based off of weak fluff?

He isn't saying that a cop implies there is a miller and that argument is irrelevant to what he is saying. He is saying that you, as a cop, wouldn't have ignored or doubted the presence of a claimed miller.

Like I said before, you haven't played a cops game. I don't buy the claim and I intensely suspect RDashes sudden change after I called him out for so blatently supporting your claim.

What was wrong with your defence is that I disagree with it. It's not worth arguing over because the argument is essentially boils down to us saying you did something scummy and you saying that scummy thing isn't actually scummy.

I wouldn't be opposed to a Vifam lynch.

[Horrifying Hero]

Unvote, VOTE: Rainbowdash.

THAT'S what we think of the Rainbowdash vote. Rdash is playing the mediator again, but this time, scumslipped by revealing that he has a good idea of what the scum power in this game is.

We'll be explaining shortly, of course.

But we are NOT lynching bob OR avas. They are both mislynches. It's either Rainbowdash, Vifam, or Wicked. And if you STILL can't see Wicked as obv-scum (he is, blatantly obv-scum), then we'll lynch one of the other two who are blatantly connected to him. Bob and avas are not connected to Wicked. (Actually, avas is--in the sense that Wicked is pushing for an avas mislynch.) Rainbowdash and Vifam are.

Seriously. Wicked used his scum skills to deduce there was no cop in this game. Think about it--nobody treated the miller claim like a cop would. Everyone ignored it. It doesn't take much for scum to put two-and-two together and figure out that there's not a cop. Classic scum deduction.

[bobsnox]

yes yes yes

VOTE: Rainbowdash

and I HATE that bob and rdash reacted they way they did

what? to Wicked's claim? I don't believe it but I wasn't willing to vote him day one after that either. What's wrong with that?

[el simo]

Why RDash over Vifam?

[Horrifying Hero]

First off--Wicked fails to address multiple points from our wall. We know it's long, but you NEED to read it, and see just how much of it he fails to respond to. He selects only the arguments he feels he can best counter.

I think it is strange to say that all the players on my bandwagon are town. Are you unfamiliar with bussing

HE ISN'T EVEN DENYING THAT HE IS SCUM!

To elaborate on this, note how he does not deny that it's true that he's scum. He simply tries to say that the wagon is not all town. In fact, he even CALLS it bussing. SCUM CAN'T BUS TOWN, NOW, CAN THEY? It's another scumclaim from Wicked. He's furthermore trying to deflect attention onto the wagon, to get suspicion there rather than on him. It's a subtle but quite effective OMGUS.

*I wasn't interested in the miller discussion. - So what? I don't believe that there was anything important to learn from a discussion regarding the claim. Theory discussions

But you didn't just show disinterest in the miller discussion. YOU ACTIVELY TRIED TO SHUT IT DOWN. That made it go from something which might not produce anything useful, to something which DEFINITELY didn't produce anything useful. YOU DENIED THE TOWN A POSSIBLE DISCUSSION PATH.

The questions I asked in RQS. - I've already addressed this point (thanks for ignoring me). I'll restate my previous defense: these questions weren't meant to get us out of RVS. They also weren't meant to distract from the game. You'll notice that I still random voted.

THEN WHAT THE EFF WERE THEY MEANT FOR?!?

Only very slightly. One word, in fact.

But it's true. Random Questions as scum are there for fluff. Random Questions as town are there to get information. As previously mentioned in our case, there was literally nothing productive in them--you learned nothing from them. You gained zero information from forcing others to answer. You produced, nothing out of these questions.

They were fluff. Meant to pad out your posts. They served no purpose. Other than to make you artificially look better. There's no town motive behind that.

This is just the way I speak.

Mastin disagrees. Strongly. Caps Lock Rage, strongly. He'll elaborate when he's calmed down.

I find it strange that this point is being used against me when other players (for example: avasthearties) have been pretty wishy-washy.

This is blatant deflection. Not only onto another. But trying to connect two completely separate subjects. Wicked's scumtells have virtually nothing to do with being wishy-washy. Wicked's done a lot of scumtells having to do with backtracking. The two are not the same.

[HezLucky]

I'll be the first to admit that HH's wall on Wicked wasn't the greatest. In fact, I was very hesitant after reading HH's "case" on Wicked.

But the above is a really good post.


IMO one of Rainbow/Wicked/Vifam will be lynched today. I will accept nothing else.

[Rainbowdash]

If any of you have a shred of trust left in me today, vote Vifam. That IS the right play.

[LobsterCatapult]

you said that you think he is scum, and dont believe the claim, but didnt vote for him. i find that scummy.

and i havent gotten to post what i think about rdash.

ill bite, ill explain why after work

vote:rainbowdash

vifam isn't even posting, he should be replaced imo. he gives me a strong newbie vibe rather than a strong scum one. i know the 2 arent mutually exclusive but....yeah. im leaning null/town till he does otherwise. i dont see the case really.