Open 320- Tit for Tat: Game Over!

[verydark]

Really? The 2 wagons are going to be malp and seraphim?

Sleepy and LLD continually mimic eachothers votes, yet LLD has sleepy as one of her main scum reads. This seems a bit staged.

I don't really have malp or seraphim pegged as confirmed scum, so this is a slippery slope. With the deadline in 2 days, I may be forced to join a wagon so there isn't a NL. But I'll wait a bit longer to see how this unfolds.

In my perfect world, sleepy and LLD would be on the chopping block.

Does anyone feel that LLD is town or is leaning town?

[SleepyKrew]

She's town to me, though I doubt you value my opinion.

[Gammagooey]

Votecount #19

malpascp(3) StefanB, Lady Lambdadelta, SleepyKrew
Lady Lambdadelta (2) malpascp, Seraphim
Seraphim(2) Luxury, Magua
verydark(1) MagnaofIllusion
SleepyKrew(1) verydark

Luxury(0)
Magua(0)
StefanB(0)
MagnaofIllusion(0)

Not Voting: Nobody

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch!

Day 2 Deadline is: Wednesday, August 3rd 6:00pm EST

(About 39 hours from this post)

[SleepyKrew]

Magua, vote malp and we'll have L-1 pweez :3

[malpascp]

Damn it SK, you really like blood.
I will make it more fair to everyone.

Unvote, Vote: Seraphim

[SleepyKrew]

I "really like blood"? Do you suggest we No Lynch?

[malpascp]

No (at least right now I don't think so), but you are really wanting to lynch ANYONE.

[SleepyKrew]

Wow, you're good at reading.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Really? The 2 wagons are going to be malp and seraphim?

Well for some reason some people (cough, Magua) can’t see the clear indications of scum radiating off you in waves.

Does anyone feel that LLD is town or is leaning town?

I have every reason to believe LLD is Town. Her play is very much Town LLD.

Pop quiz – why don’t you actually post a case. And your “They are mimicking each others vote” isn’t a case. Show how the votes are being mimicked. And then explain the scum motivations for them.

Also what happened to the promised content? Hmmmm?

--

Yes, it makes him look bad. But he's also the third person to do it (Seraphim and malpascp being the other two) and unless I'm about to wake up with stained sheets[1], they're not *all* mafia.

So if you are washing that element away from all three (which you have to by the “they are all doing it” argument) what separates Seraphim from very?

--

Damn it SK, you really like blood.
I will make it more fair to everyone.

Unvote, Vote: Seraphim

You are making it ‘fair’ by hopping onto the next most viable wagon?
And you aren’t posting anything in the way of reads / content?

UNVOTE: Verydark
VOTE: Malpascp

THIS IS L-1. Anyone who wants to hammer should ask for a claim first. Time is short but not short enough to not follow good Town play procedures.

[Magua]

Damn it SK, you really like blood.

He is a shark.

So if you are washing that element away from all three (which you have to by the “they are all doing it” argument) what separates Seraphim from very?

verydark is newb. newb is easy to read. I'm pretty goddamn sure part of the instigation on him is scum-driven. You throw out a tell, I throw back that it either can't be a tell or that we've caught all the mafia. What separates Seraphim from verydark is a) a few years experience playing mafia, and b) that verydark is at least trying whereas Seraphim isn't at all.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magua

- so you are saying he "OH MY GOD YOU KILLED VISCERA YOU BASTARDS" rant before the Mod had actually flipped Viscera is a Newb Town tell? Because I see it as a Newb scum tell personally. The case on verydark is hardly just 'not delivering content'. You know every well that is the case.

[Seraphim]

Posting from iPad. Not exactly wild about either lynch option for obvious reasons. Will vote malp to prevent no lynch but that's about it. Post in more detail later.

[verydark]

So my style isn't to post walls of text, but apparently to be taken seriously, it's expected. Which is funny because LLD is essentially LEADING THE GAME, and she rarely posts more than 2 sentences after quoting someone. Those sentences usually consist of "What is this shit" or "...really". Yet, she is the towniest player evar (sarcasm).

I might be a noob, but I'm not oblivious.

The wagon on VE formed during RVS, but stuck till he was lynched. Looking back, I still don't think there was enough ammunition to lynch him. He was very over-the-top, but I didn't find his play style scummy, everyone essentially lynched him because he was loud. After sleepy replaced generic name, he jumped on the VE wagon without giving a reason. Moments later, LLD replaces in, and immediately votes for VE. She then tunnels him until he's lynched, basically applying any and all scum traits she can to his neutral play.

Votecount #6

VisceraEyes(6) IH,

SleepyKrew, Lady Lambdadelta

, StefanB, Seraphim, malpascp
Seraphim(1) MagnaofIllusion

Lady Lambdadelta(0)
verydark(0)
SleepyKrew(0)
MagnaofIllusion(0)
Coventry(0)
SigmaEXE003(0)
IH(0)
malpascp(0)
StefanB(0)
Darkcoffeejazz(0)

Not Voting:Coventry, SigmaEXE003, VisceraEyes, verydark, Darkcoffeejazz

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch!

Oh noes, VE flipped town. What a surprise, seeing as how he was lynched when many games are still in RVS. Of course, I take the brunt of attention from the mislynch. Which is funny, because

I DIDN'T EVEN VOTE FOR VE, AND URGED PEOPLE NOT TO

(until we had more info). This somehow gets turned around to be anti-town behavior. But no one starts to wagon me...just yet.

But what is most amazing is that after the flip, Sleepy votes randomly for malpasc in post #177 without giving any reasoning, and LLD disappears for some time, only to reappear with post #196, where she simply votes for malpasc, and says NOTHING ELSE.

VOTE: malpscap
However you spell it.

@SK: RVS is only on D1.

Seems obvious to me that IH could only be killed by mafia. That means mafia killed IH, and IH had to kill DCJ. Not hard.

I think SK is town so far. But I wouldn't recommend you to keep posting like that.

Vote: Mal

That's right, they both say NOTHING (LLD quotes a useless malpasc post, which me just comes off as noob, not scum), and cast a vote for malpasc.

SCUM BUDDIES!

Well, the gig is up. MoI starts pushing me, and what a surprise, Sleepy and LLD jump on board the wagon with the most fuel at the time.

Votecount #13

verydark(3)

Lady Lambdadelta

, MagnaofIllusion,

SleepyKrew

SigmaEXE003(2) Magua, StefanB
SleepyKrew(1) verydark
Lady Lambdadelta (1) malpascp

malpascp(0)
Seraphim(0)
Magua(0)
StefanB(0)
MagnaofIllusion(0)

Not Voting: Seraphim, SigmaEXE003

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch!

Then the game goes into a lull, where little new stuff is posted. After a while, it's obvious there's not enough steam on this train to lynchville for me, so they both jump to the next best wagon (malpasc), which is getting attention from more players.

Votecount #19

malpascp(3) StefanB,

Lady Lambdadelta, SleepyKrew

Lady Lambdadelta (2) malpascp, Seraphim
Seraphim(2) Luxury, Magua
verydark(1) MagnaofIllusion
SleepyKrew(1) verydark

Luxury(0)
Magua(0)
StefanB(0)
MagnaofIllusion(0)

Not Voting: Nobody

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch!

...and here we are.

I mean, I don't know how much more of a case I can make against sleepy and LLD.

LLD hides behind snarky, witty, but brief posts punctuated by player quotes that are sometimes (and sometimes not) relevant.

Sleepy just continually berates everyone with "WHY???!? I'M ASKING QUESTIONS TO LOOK TOWN!" but his questions are really not even scumhunting questions.

So, there's your wall of text. Hopefully this awards me with some pro-town points, even though I haven't exhibited any anti-town behavior. Maybe someone should ask LLD or Sleepy to give an in-depth analysis of why they are voting for malpasc. Because they've both been able to hide behind flimsy(or non-existent) arguments for their votes the whole game.

[Magua]

Magua

- so you are saying he "OH MY GOD YOU KILLED VISCERA YOU BASTARDS" rant before the Mod had actually flipped Viscera is a Newb Town tell? Because I see it as a Newb scum tell personally. The case on verydark is hardly just 'not delivering content'. You know every well that is the case.

That's not what he said. He said:

#155: "Are you guys fucking serious? If VE flips town, you are ALL on my shit list. I will go through and ISO each of you because its guaranteed that scum is on this wagon. There is absolutely no need to put someone at L-1 and rolefish this early in the game."

#158: "Ok, you're so overly willing to hammer, and yet after reading you in ISO, you have gave NO argument for why. You and VE have obviously had some back and forth aggressiveness, but you have not fully explained WHY you're voting him. Your hammer vote seems VERY opportunistic."

#159: "Please, please, allow VE to at least respond or get prodded before you hammer. Not letting him defend himself is absolutely anti-town.

His last post was yesterday...give him till tomorrow to post.

We have ten days until the deadline, there is NO REASON to rush this lynch."

#162: "Wow, if you just lynched a townie, I URGE everyone to vote for you in day 2. You are probably the most anti-town player I've EVER encountered."

That's fucking not "YOU KILLED VISCERA EYES YOU BASTARD," that's "OMG WHY ARE YOU RUSHING AND PUSHING THIS LYNCH THROUGH WHEN WE HAVE PLENTY OF TIME."

Whereas Seraphim's content today can be summarized as, "Oh, I see there's a wagon on me. Whelp, I'm happy to vote the other guy."

[SleepyKrew]

I'm feeling lazy guys, want me to defend myself from that?

[MagnaofIllusion]

The wagon on VE formed during RVS, but stuck till he was lynched.

Looking back, I still don't think there was enough ammunition to lynch him. He was very over-the-top, but I didn't find his play style scummy, everyone essentially lynched him because he was loud. After sleepy replaced generic name, he jumped on the VE wagon without giving a reason. Moments later, LLD replaces in, and immediately votes for VE. She then tunnels him until he's lynched, basically applying any and all scum traits she can to his neutral play.

Here’s my first problem with this statement. Look at the bolded and then let’s examine the wagon.

VisceraEyes(6) IH, SleepyKrew, Lady Lambdadelta, StefanB, Seraphim, malpascp

So if the wagon on Viscera ‘formed during RVS’ how do you account for the fact that Sleepy and LLD were the second and third on the wagon? Especially in light of your narrative above which looks to cast both as Non-RVS votes.

Also, did you expect players who replace in to not act on their reads and move their votes?

As to your “Don’t think there was enough ammunition” argument – I think you are understating things. Viscera’s play around LLD was scummy as heck. He pressured DCJ in an abrasive manner but when LLD did the same to him he more or less flipped out and threatened to replace.

Oh noes, VE flipped town. What a surprise, seeing as how he was lynched when many games are still in RVS. Of course, I take the brunt of attention from the mislynch. Which is funny, because I DIDN'T EVEN VOTE FOR VE, AND URGED PEOPLE NOT TO (until we had more info). This somehow gets turned around to be anti-town behavior. But no one starts to wagon me...just yet.

You seem to be missing the point. Your constant pressure against the wagon is a tell. A tell of “I know this is a mislynch so I’m going to do everything in my power to position myself off it and make sure my feelings are known”. I myself didn’t have a solid scum read on Viscera but until he flipped I couldn’t be sure he was Town.

You on the other hand were dead sure before hand. Maybe you just have absolutely fantastic reads. Or perhaps you dropped a pretty strong scum-tell looking for Town cred. I’m inclined to believe the latter.

As for the “when games are in RVS” angle that’s not really relevant. Scum get caught all the time early in ‘RVS’ for their behavior. Look at the recent “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” Mafia game where LLD and I basically locked on Jason-scum early and rode his lynch based on RVS play Day 1.

That's right, they both say NOTHING (LLD quotes a useless malpasc post, which me just comes off as noob, not scum), and cast a vote for malpasc.

SCUM BUDDIES!

Well, the gig is up. MoI starts pushing me, and what a surprise, Sleepy and LLD jump on board the wagon with the most fuel at the time.

So you think that LLD and Sleepy are scum-parnters working in tandem so blatantly together by synchronizing their votes?

--

That's not what he said. He said:

#155: "Are you guys fucking serious? If VE flips town, you are ALL on my shit list. I will go through and ISO each of you because its guaranteed that scum is on this wagon. There is absolutely no need to put someone at L-1 and rolefish this early in the game."

#158: "Ok, you're so overly willing to hammer, and yet after reading you in ISO, you have gave NO argument for why. You and VE have obviously had some back and forth aggressiveness, but you have not fully explained WHY you're voting him. Your hammer vote seems VERY opportunistic."

#159: "Please, please, allow VE to at least respond or get prodded before you hammer. Not letting him defend himself is absolutely anti-town.

His last post was yesterday...give him till tomorrow to post.

We have ten days until the deadline, there is NO REASON to rush this lynch."

#162: "Wow, if you just lynched a townie, I URGE everyone to vote for you in day 2. You are probably the most anti-town player I've EVER encountered."

That's fucking not "YOU KILLED VISCERA EYES YOU BASTARD," that's "OMG WHY ARE YOU RUSHING AND PUSHING THIS LYNCH THROUGH WHEN WE HAVE PLENTY OF TIME."

Great job in transcribing his posts. My point remains.

Everyone of those posts is crafted from the standpoint of “I’m positioning myself as AGAINST this myslnch”, which betrays inside knowledge that Viscera was not scum. We are definitely going to disagree on the inherent scumminess of said play.

In reviewing your transcription I also notice verydark’s little DERP up on the death of IH / DCJ. Thanks for reminding me about that little piece of scumminess.

Whereas Seraphim's content today can be summarized as, "Oh, I see there's a wagon on me. Whelp, I'm happy to vote the other guy."

Except that ‘other guy’ in question would be verydark if Seraphim was simply pushing the convienant wagon. Yet instead he goes after LLD who isn’t going to be lynched today. His content may be weak but it doesn’t scream “Lulz, I’m scum who is just going to take the easy route”.

You don’t think verydark and Seraphim are scum together. So what play is Seraphim-scum making here? Distancing from partner LLD (who I don’t see as scum at all) or staying off the verydark-Townie wagon? Or both?

[verydark]

I've noticed this trend in the few games I've played so far, and it really fucking irks me.

It seems that, generally speaking, no one cares if it's a mislynch D1. But from the games I've reviewed (not played) you can usually credit town losses to a derailment beginning with the first lynch.

I'd rather get the D1 lynch correct, and if that means letting D1 play out until the minute before deadline, I'm totally on board with that.

Who knows, had VE been scum, maybe he would have had a huge scum slip, or, maybe if we let it pan out the additional several days, the REAL scum would have surfaced.

I pleaded for everyone to calm down and wait it out, but after VE fake replaced- no one wanted him in the game anymore, totally losing sight of the fact we still had several more days left till deadline, and a majority of players had JUST replaced in or had posted very little. As a result, I didn't have any time to scumhunt.

And honestly, if I was greeted by a replacement (LLD) who simply said "What is this shit?" and then proceeded to vote for me, I would react pretty boldly as well.

Again with the applying "scum tells" to any and all behavior. As for "screaming to the rafters" about VE, it had nothing to do with VE, or his play style. I saw that a lynch was being rushed, many of the players on the wagon didn't even explain WHY they were voting him. This is opportunistic. We mislynched.

If your one reason for eyeing me as scum is because I was so adamant about not lynching VE, you're severely misguided. I was adamant about not lynching ANYONE at that point.

Carry on though, I have nothing to hide, and am not scared to be lynched, because the harm won't be to me, but to you. (PLEASE, attribute this as some sort of scum-tell, I can't wait to hear it).

[Seraphim]

verydark: if I am reading your posts correctly, you should get on the LLD wagon. It has a much better chance than the SK wagon and I really don't think he's scum.

I said VD was likely scum before but his reaction to his wagon and his most recent posts on his page look like genuinely frustrated town.

The mal wagon looks like a wagon made completely out of deadline apathy and nothing more.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I see you didn't really address my questions but spent this post telling me why my read is crap. Noted.

For the record can you actually answer the following?

1. So if the wagon on Viscera ‘formed during RVS’ how do you account for the fact that Sleepy and LLD were the second and third on the wagon? Especially in light of your narrative above which looks to cast both as Non-RVS votes.

2. Also, did you expect players who replace in to not act on their reads and move their votes?

3. So you think that LLD and Sleepy are scum-parnters working in tandem so blatantly together by synchronizing their votes?

--

I've noticed this trend in the few games I've played so far, and it really fucking irks me.

It seems that, generally speaking, no one cares if it's a mislynch D1. But from the games I've reviewed (not played) you can usually credit town losses to a derailment beginning with the first lynch.

I note you are very passionately pissed off about a problem that doesn't exist. I absolutely care if Day 1 is a fucking mislynch or not. Town always wants to lynch scum Day 1 if possible. Some facts to point out ...

1. Day 1 there are always more Town than scum. Even with good reads Town are going to be lynched more often on pure statistics.
2. Of course Town games which are losses are more generally going to have mislynches Day 1. Town games with Wins are more likely to have Day 1 scum lynches. But I can point out any number of Town games that are wins that started with a Day 1 mislynch. So trying to link at mislych Day 1 to "no-one" cares is overblown.

[verydark]

1. So if the wagon on Viscera ‘formed during RVS’ how do you account for the fact that Sleepy and LLD were the second and third on the wagon? Especially in light of your narrative above which looks to cast both as Non-RVS votes.

IH cast RVS vote on VE. Generic name cast his vote which he never explained before he replaced out (so we'll call that an RVS vote), Sleepy left the vote the same, without explanation until LLD votes, then he claims sheeping, so we'll call that an RVS vote, and then Lady cast her vote and began her tirade against VE. So at best, Lady was the first non RVS vote.

2. Also, did you expect players who replace in to not act on their reads and move their votes?

No, but Sleepy NEVER once explained why his vote remained other than he was sheeping. He didn't even really begin posting until after the lynch, other than a post asking me to vote for VE. This to me seems more opportunistic than deliberate.

3. So you think that LLD and Sleepy are scum-parnters working in tandem so blatantly together by synchronizing their votes?

Wouldn't be the first time. And the fact that LLD is vocal about her distaste for sleepy, makes it seem even more staged.

[MagnaofIllusion]

IH cast RVS vote on VE. Generic name cast his vote which he never explained before he replaced out (so we'll call that an RVS vote), Sleepy left the vote the same, without explanation until LLD votes, then he claims sheeping, so we'll call that an RVS vote, and then Lady cast her vote and began her tirade against VE. So at best, Lady was the first non RVS vote.

Your points 2 and 3 I see your opinion. I don't necessarily agree but don't want to argue just to argue.

This on the other hand I want to address.

You originally said "The wagon formed on Viscera and stayed there". I don't count 2 RVS votes as a 'wagon'. I feel like you were trying to bolster the gravity of the situation with that statement.

So your stance is that aside from DCJ (who you definately fingered as scum pre-flip) the scummiest votes on Viscera were Sleepy and LLD in the second and third positions? I just want to be clear.

[verydark]

DCJ hammered. He could have gave VE time to be prodded and see if he was even going to try, but the truth is that everyone seemingly unanimously agreed that the game would be better off without VE. This is why DCJ was scummy to me. He basically was like "I'll wait till the end of the day" then hammered 2 hours later.

And yes, Sleepy and LLD were the scummiest votes on VE, and continue to act scummy.

I've never, with any success, been able to peg 2 scum buddies this early in the game, but my gut is usually somewhat correct, so if they aren't scum buddies, I can guarantee you that at least ONE of them is scum. But seeing as how the wagon is going a totally different direction than them, I guess we will see D3.

...and I do think I will change my vote, hopefully LLD will have a little more backing for a lynch.

UNVOTE: SleepyKrew
VOTE: Lady Lambdadelta

[SleepyKrew]

VD, is malp town?

[verydark]

????

I don't know. He has 11 posts total, of which I am unable to garner any concrete information. Hell, I don't even know who he's eyeing as scum, or what his motives are. He doesn't like LLD, and is only voting seraphim because he's the other wagon.

He's null for me, but if it comes down to a no lynch, and for some reason I would be the hammer to prevent it, I would vote for him based on his lack of contribution. Not a reason I would like to have to lynch...but desperate times...

[SleepyKrew]

Well whadyaknow, it's near deadline and you're in a position to hammer! Watch that clock