Newbie 1138 - Game Over! Town Win!

[DarkClaymore]

I'm going to agree with cavjj at the moment since it's more likely that he was set up and used for his eagerness to lynch. The wagon on me was pretty much a test run. When they saw that cavjj would jump on that, they probably assumed he would jump on BBmolla, too. And they were right.

Whatever they did or didn't expect him to jump on it, they couldn't expect him to hammer as well. To think that "they planned that cavjj will hammer BBmolla in order to latter on use this to frame him" is really off.

First of all, this guy only has 10 posts, which would be scummy in itself if so many other people hadn't been contributing just as little.

Yeah, sorry for sleeping while the thread is the most active.

#121: "Oh no, he got us" comment is trying way too hard to look unaffected. Predictably, he goes on to accuse cavjj both of hammering scummily and trying to make him and IAI look bad. He then brings up WIFOM again to talk about the night kill, which is meant to make it appear indecipherable. Useless. Now he's saying that "I still would have chosen the IC." Still, huh? Compare to #90 when he says the response of killing the IC is "wrong." He then votes for the IC for not dying, because according to his own crazy rambling on the subject, anyone dying but the IC means the IC is guilty. Love it.

Well, what did you expect? After how no one really expressed that they think in the direction that the IC not dying during the night is suspicious, there was no longer point in keeping him alive in order to frame him. After seeing the answers then I would have either killed the IC or at the very least investigated him.

DC has voted a lot of people and even lynched someone, but hasn't given one good reason yet

I love when people say this. Because I could always just say the same thing back to you or anyone else. Everything is speculating so any reason is weak. I actually developed a habit of following weak reasons because they hit scum so many times in my previous games. The strong and obvious ones are usually bad ones.

I proposed in one game using alternative voting pattern in order to simulate what people really think. That idea was that every player can vote for as many players as he/she wants to lynch. My goal was to see whatever the person everyone was talking about and pointing fingers at was indeed the one who would get the biggest number of votes.

But no, someone else did. And that someone was scum. How did it happen?
X was a player about who everybody talked and discussed whatever he is scum. He was the "most suspicious player" that day. Aside of that, there was also player Y who many people suspected but didn't have anything to solid in order to make others follow them for a lynch so they didn't really stress it. But since in that voting pattern you can vote for whoever you suspect, people tended to vote for X

and

Y. Yet it turned out that actually Y got more votes because he was on more players' "suspects list" even though rarely was the first one.

My point is. It's not like individuals don't hit scum in their speculating, it's just, when we need to lynch together, people just prefer to vote in agreement with others so that we can actually lynch someone. So in that example, people would have voted X because "everybody talk about him and seem to suspect him" rather than Y because "no one really seems to strongly suspect him". That's why I believe many times weaker reasons are better to follow than the loud ones.

[Honest Abel]

I don't think using cavjj is really off. You had no reason to bring yet another player to L-1. You actively ignored Scumhunter's criticism of it and whoever else agreed with him by doing it AGAIN. cavjj discussed his intent to hammer and progress the day as quickly as possible. You expressed the same reasoning as he did earlier, probably to make him feel like he had someone who agreed with him there. Bringing someone to L-1 for bad reasons after it was already revealed to be a dumb tactic so early and knowing that someone hammer hungry was there all adds up to using cavjj. What's so "off" about that?

We're going to take a good look at your "reasons" for voting people in a little while, and I'll even throw in some reasons why other people voted for other people just to show the difference between poor voting and good voting.

[DarkClaymore]

I don't think using cavjj is really off. You had no reason to bring yet another player to L-1. You actively ignored Scumhunter's criticism of it and whoever else agreed with him by doing it AGAIN. cavjj discussed his intent to hammer and progress the day as quickly as possible. You expressed the same reasoning as he did earlier, probably to make him feel like he had someone who agreed with him there. Bringing someone to L-1 for bad reasons after it was already revealed to be a dumb tactic so early and knowing that someone hammer hungry was there all adds up to using cavjj. What's so "off" about that?

I personally don't think putting a player at L-1 is bad. It's not the same as killing him. L-1 is the best way to pressure people. I know I wouldn't be pressured no matter what unless I'm in L-1. I don't find it dumb tactic or whatever. But people tend to not agree with my way of thinking so what more can I say? Nothing.


As for the "making him feel that someone agrees with him" part. I'm fairly sure I stated I hate D1 way back at the beginning before he even expressed any desire to end it. I just did what I wanted to. I could easily be in his place and hammer for the sake of ending D1. The only reason I wouldn't have done it if I were him is that many players were against doing it so soon. I suppose he refused to seriously consider this fact and it's obvious that he should get all this attention for what he did.

Sadly, my own belief is that players who catch too much attention with something negative tend to be innocent. But I'm always ready to be proven wrong as mafia can't be such a "black & white" game. On the other hand, people who try to catch attention with positive actions, like you, are very suspicious. If you are town, all you are doing is becoming night kill target. However, if you are scum, you manage to avoid lynch. I believe the latter you have much more to gain from such play style. But yeah, sure. People will call this weak, illogical or stupid reason so I'll just leave it as it is.

[DarkClaymore]

Fix:

I believe

as

the latter you have much more to gain from such play style. But yeah, sure. People will call this weak, illogical or stupid reason so I'll just leave it as it is.

[whilst]

cavjj & DarkClaymore

As for the "making him feel that someone agrees with him" part. I'm fairly sure I stated I hate D1 way back at the beginning before he even expressed any desire to end it. I just did what I wanted to. I could easily be in his place and hammer for the sake of ending D1. The only reason I wouldn't have done it if I were him is that many players were against doing it so soon. I suppose he refused to seriously consider this fact and it's obvious that he should get all this attention for what he did.

We could just ask him if he did consider it.

cavjj

-- did you consider the fact that most people were against ending D1 before you hammered?

DarkClaymore

#121: "Oh no, he got us" comment is trying way too hard to look unaffected. Predictably, he goes on to accuse cavjj both of hammering scummily and trying to make him and IAI look bad. He then brings up WIFOM again to talk about the night kill, which is meant to make it appear indecipherable. Useless. Now he's saying that "I still would have chosen the IC." Still, huh? Compare to #90 when he says the response of killing the IC is "wrong." He then votes for the IC for not dying, because according to his own crazy rambling on the subject, anyone dying but the IC means the IC is guilty. Love it.

Well, what did you expect? After how no one really expressed that they think in the direction that the IC not dying during the night is suspicious, there was no longer point in keeping him alive in order to frame him. After seeing the answers then I would have either killed the IC or at the very least investigated him.

But why is the IC not dying suspicious? I have said before that I would have killed an IC (based on skill), but that's more of a personal strategy than a point of suspicion. Being Mafia also means making the smarter kill. Has the IC been posting?

Wickedestjr

has made a total of 5 posts. He's voted to lynch me basically for no reason (i've pointed this out before), really...So much for being active. As mafia, why kill someone who hasn't been contributing? Right, right, this may be a premature comment, of course: We are still waiting on his N1 and D2 reaction post.

---

Mod Notes:

• Please don't forget that red and blue are reserved colors for the mod. Using a variant of either can be misconstrued as imitating the mod, and is grounds for a modkill. As the post in question was not actually a color tag, there's no penalty, just a friendly reminder of things to avoid. Thanks!

Sorry! I'll refrain from using the ooc tag.

I'll just use a small green style instead.

[Honest Abel]

I have a terrible headache and I'm busy at work, so I won't be contributing much today until later tonight. Just want to say I never take into consideration how my activity will make me a target at Night. I don't care about that. I prefer long days so I can contribute as much as possible knowing that every Day could be my last. That's a big part of why wanting any Day to end quickly is anti-town/scummy. Because it means you're okay with the fact that it could be your last Day and you still don't want to contribute anything. Or it just means you're scum.

[cavjj]

cavjj & DarkClaymore

As for the "making him feel that someone agrees with him" part. I'm fairly sure I stated I hate D1 way back at the beginning before he even expressed any desire to end it. I just did what I wanted to. I could easily be in his place and hammer for the sake of ending D1. The only reason I wouldn't have done it if I were him is that many players were against doing it so soon. I suppose he refused to seriously consider this fact and it's obvious that he should get all this attention for what he did.

We could just ask him if he did consider it.

cavjj

-- did you consider the fact that most people were against ending D1 before you hammered?[/area]

Not really. I remembered someone (although admittedly I thought it was more than one person) had expressed a desire to end or expressed dislike for D1. In hindsight I was thinking of DC's comment, which I have just re-read, but wasn't away it was his comment specifically.

[I Am Innocent]

The "vote first and give reasons later" attitude seems useless.

If you say so. But on page 4 with 6 newbies in the game, it can be very beneficial/telling.

You're also defending yourself by saying you do what you're criticizing me of doing, which is suspecting someone without revealing your intentions right away. Seems like a conflict of interests there.

Difference, I stated my suspicions. I said who my top 2 was. And voted accordingly

You pushed BBmolla's lynch, and now are saying you suspected others (me and DarkClaymore) at the time instead. Yet you left your vote on BBmolla, never showed any inkling of your suspicion, and coincidentally D2 I am the one that pushed the BBmolla wagon??? I don't think so bub.

[I Am Innocent]

...I prefer long days so

I can contribute as much as possible knowing that every Day could be my last.

...

Interesting that is your playstyle, it is mine too, hence why I usually make known anything suspicious I find. Which is why I find it interesting with that mindset that you would think it was not important to express some/any concern for your suspicions of me and DC before D1 ended.

Instead, this was your 2nd to last post of D1 and last addressing a comment by me:

That's a good explanation to give to stubborn no-lynch advocates in addition to all the other benefits of lynching.

P.S. My vote stands. I'm convinced enough. Is anyone else interested in having a go at BBmolla? Anyone interested in critiquing my line of questioning/reasoning?

I can see how "That's a good explanation" can be confused with "I am becoming wary of you".

FOS Honest Abel

Top 3
cavjj
Honest Abel
Dark Claymore

[Honest Abel]

I didn't push a lynch, I left my vote on BBmolla because I was in the middle of pressuring/pursuing him. Not once did I say "Let's lynch this guy." Already explained that. Also already explained why I showed no inkling of my suspicion. I also didn't say you pushed the BBmolla wagon. I said you joined it for no good reason, your buddy followed, and a newbtown who was obviously dying to hammer hammered.

What you're saying to me is not scumhunting or protown. Your responses are weak attempts at counterattack. You are not advancing your case. You are repeating things and attempting to twist them a little more each time. This is scummy behavior.

It's not suspicious that I would make known my concerns before Day 1 ended when it ended far ahead of schedule. I didn't know it would end mere hours after I went to bed. Already explained this.

You and the explanation are completely different entities. It wasn't even your explanation. You quoted something someone else said. Which is scummy on its own because it's an attempt to make you look like your'e contributing something when really you're just quoting other games.

Again, FoSing me and trying to make me look scummy with poor/twisted reasons and selective quoting is just making you look worse. But please, don't stop just because I say so.

[Honest Abel]

What is the reason that I'm your target other than the fact that I'm pointing out your scumminess? None that I can see. Your posts aren't protown. You are not scumhunting me. You're just trying to make me look bad so that you can look better. Pretty sure even newbs can see through that.

[Bricktoes]

On the other hand, people who try to catch attention with positive actions, like you, are very suspicious. If you are town, all you are doing is becoming night kill target.

if you actiively scumhunt, you're suspicious, gaining nothing for townj and going to die? way to threaten the guy leaning into you.

Vote: DarkClaymore

. I'll be leaving this 'til lynch.

[Honest Abel]

UNVOTE: DarkClaymore

Because I Am Innocent and I are having fun. Plus, too many other people need to contribute more before the end of the Day. I will be willing to lynch DarkClaymore after that happens, as it stands. But it doesn't need to get that close yet.

[Bricktoes]

Here's a question: if you were scum, how confident would you feel right now?

[DarkClaymore]

On the other hand, people who try to catch attention with positive actions, like you, are very suspicious. If you are town, all you are doing is becoming night kill target.

if you actiively scumhunt, you're suspicious, gaining nothing for townj and going to die? way to threaten the guy leaning into you.

All you do by being

too active

as town is becoming night kill target. True, active scumhunting is good. But no need to overdo it. If you believe you are good at scumhunting and can really help the town, why do this in a way that will night kill you? It's much better to do in a more moderate way and survive longer for the sake of the town.

A good player should know not only how to catch scum but also how to survive longer in order to be able to catch scum latter on. Doing only the latter while saying "I play as if every day is my last" doesn't quite cut it. But whatever suits you.

[DarkClaymore]

Here's a question: if you were scum, how confident would you feel right now?

Who are you asking?

[Bricktoes]

everyone

[Bricktoes]

so claymore, if i can call you that, how do you think your scumhunting is going right now?

[DarkClaymore]

everyone

But we aren't all in the same boat here...
For example I'm quite close to lynch so... I don't feel too confident as town or even I would have been mafia. If that answers something...

so claymore, if i can call you that, how do you think your scumhunting is going right now?

I suck at scumhunting. I try to do something but rarely do I ever come with something decent. Apparently I'm better at townhunting, but in this game I kind of fail in this too. That's why I tend to rely more on weak reasons that based on repetitive patterns I have seen before.

[Bricktoes]

You have one vote on you.

[Bricktoes]

How confident do you think our mafia are right now? Do you think this town is heading in a good direction? Do you have any thoughts at all you'd like to share?

[cavjj]

IAI - You seem to keep saying that you suspect me and you've not said why.

I reckon you're scum backtracking and trying to start a bandwagon due to my actions D1 in case I don't get lynched without your help....

[DarkClaymore]

You have one vote on you.

We all know that I'm the lynch target right now.

How confident do you think our mafia are right now? Do you think this town is heading in a good direction? Do you have any thoughts at all you'd like to share?

Who? Me? Or everyone?
It's kinda confusing if you don't state who you are talking to

Well, obviously I'd say that Abel working so hard to make me look like scum is heading in the wrong direction since I'm town. While the right thing to do as town is to try and prove him I'm town and put him back on the right track, it's not something I can do since many things I did - I did while knowing they would make me suspicious. Therefore I can't really defend against many of them as I find them suspicious myself.

As for the rest, focusing on me will be a mistake for the very same reason. Though it's not like I have a better candidate to offer, nor can I assure them of my innocence. Hence I can't prevent this anyway right now.


All I can add atm is that I agree with what Innocent said a while ago regarding Abel. Of course, wanting to wait for a while before revealing what you think is legit. But saying stuff like "I'll reveal what I think if I get into at L-1" when you say that you want to contribute as much as you can during the whole day is kinda off. He was pretty much asking for people to put him at L-1. There was no reason to say that otherwise. He could just stay quiet and keep everything to himself until a L-1 actually happens. And I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have happened if he hadn't said that one line.

[Bricktoes]

I expected you to answer those questions since I was in a conversation with you, but I also left them open in hopes others would answer as well.

While the right thing to do as town is to try and prove him I'm town and put him back on the right track, it's not something I can do since many things I did - I did while knowing they would make me suspicious. Therefore I can't really defend against many of them as I find them suspicious myself.

So you did things knowing it would look like you weren't town? Of what benefit is that to the town? Were all of these scummy things addressed already or are there others?

[DarkClaymore]

I expected you to answer those questions since I was in a conversation with you, but I also left them open in hopes others would answer as well.

While the right thing to do as town is to try and prove him I'm town and put him back on the right track, it's not something I can do since many things I did - I did while knowing they would make me suspicious. Therefore I can't really defend against many of them as I find them suspicious myself.

So you did things knowing it would look like you weren't town? Of what benefit is that to the town? Were all of these scummy things addressed already or are there others?

I believe Abel mentioned all of them. One example would be giving a very analyzed answer regarding his N0 question. But it's not like I'm asking to be lynched. It's just that sometime I feel like I have to say certain things even if I know people will suspect me for it.

Appearing scummy will most likely not make me a night kill target, thus keeping me alive longer in case I manage to avoid lynch. Of course, you can claim that in a way it harms the town as I become a suspect and possibly draw attention away from the real scum, but I find it very interesting to see the reactions of people when it comes to lynching a player who plays like this. Scum tend to slip in such situations.