TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win

[PeregrineV]

No, that's not me discrediting you. That will be up to Vezok, depending on what he says.
This is me stating my opinion.

So you are saying that your opinion as no more substance than "eh, I dont like it".

Yes, I am giving my opinion. I find your explanation about choosing Vezok to be very suspect. For example, out of all the players and 50+ pages of posts, something made you go "Hmmmmm, this tickles my fancy. I'll watch him tonight."
Just wondering what it was.

[Junpei]

Honestly PeregrineV, I have been busy these past few days. I have had to find a better schedule to exercise and work out, I have to practice, I have homework, and I have been trying to get everything ready, and that is not even mentioning all my prior engagements I've had planned.

So, as it turned out I didn't have a ton of time during those 3 days or so to reread the thread and take notes. I did take notes of my thoughts, and those are my notes. But, if you need more explanation on Vezok...

Read ISO 14-25. It is basically "I buddy with good players. Oh zinger isn't dead yet? silver not scum. your not bronie??". And that isn't even me paraphrasing, that's pretty much what it says. That in particular looked like scum coasting after Zinger was deemed for death. Especially now with the town flip.

[Nero Cain]

Nero you're doing that thing where you ignore the bit at the end that proves that it is out of context.

I fail too see how Zinger stating that he's not confirmed anything and you responding "Oh u isn't confirmed scums, just our best chance of catching dems." is taking things out of content. You spent several posts stating that YOU felt Zinger was confirmed scum and would 100% NOT flip town. But when he was nearly lynched you changed your stance that he was no longer 100% scum. To me this looks like distancing from a lynch. Apparently I don't get how this is out of context so feel free to explain it for me.

So I think that Silver is most likely scum. However I don't like how quickly people jump to it, I assume that everyone's logic is the same as mine, but what about Andrew and ZeL1nK? Both have done some suspicious things and no one seems to be considering it much. Town, you can't have tunnel vision you must observe all possibilities and decide which makes the most sense. Once again, I think silver is scum but I want to explore other options so I won't be voting.

Do I really need to explain why this is full of fail?

I said that I do find Silver scummy. However look at people who are voting silver blindly

Moar discredit the wagon.

Its three votes, I don't see why you are so worried?

Crap discredit fight with Pere.

So, as it turned out I didn't have a ton of time during those 3 days or so to reread the thread and take notes.

........................................................
You have time to post 200 times but you don't have time but you don't have time to read?

[Nero Cain]

FIX

So, as it turned out I didn't have a ton of time during those 3 days or so to reread the thread and take notes.

........................................................
You have time to post 200 times but you don't have time to read?

[Rainbowdash]

10/10 A+ lynch, would do it again in a second.

Ok, so no comment on ANYTHING else going on in the game?

Actually, you're doing a slamdunk job ATM. Vifam might be scum, but the response sounds like it would be from town also. But, that's probably because I'm soft-hearted.

Jily got Snarky, which is the first time in 5 games or so. So either she's growing some

cojones

through experience, or she's more confident because she has "team" to back her up.

Bad vibes from DavidX, because while it's OK to follow up a joke vote with a joke question, you throw in real questions to. Not continue the joke past that unless it's netted you some other information.

Right out the gate Peregrine proves he isn't going to take a strong stance on anything. Vifam could be scum or town, Jilynne might be scum or town, DX is joking too much. Nothing he has to remotely commit to in this post, and is trying to buddy up/sheep the vocal players.

My vote is on chkballin for fake promising reads, but not liking the posts of DavidX. I think MoI is town, but probably because I like the posting style.

Leaning town on Killer, want Marco to throw out some reads while waiting.

Well at this point he sorta has a scum read on chk, not sure why its beating out DX since I view it as more of a suspicion due to lack of contributing, given how he basically says how it gets remedied right here and the vote got moved due to said remedy in his next post (note chkballin inst a bad scum shot on his own). Continues his exceedinly vauge suspicions of DX for reasons unknown, and starts calling popular town beliefs town here, although with plenty of wiggle room to spare, especially on MoI. The specific calling out of Marco here sounds off too, why him specifically since im pretty sure others were lurking at this point in the game.

Peregrine takes one of the more unique stances to the claim from Zinger by actually ignoring it, after inital suggestion that affirming the neutral claim would be enough for him to vote. More inability to take stands though occur as the Zinger claim switching unfolds with mixed feelings such as

In general, I see the arguements against Izak, but am going to trust Meran in this that this is how he plays (for now).

Agree with Pine=bad, but think he'd care more if he were scum. So I'd rather wait for replacement.

Can't believe that all 4 lurkers are town, but everyone seems to have their reads out pretty early. maybe I'll just go cross-index them.

Here is a big one to me though, which needs some heavy explaining since it looks like scum getting town to do their dirty work in lynching Zinger.

Silver will either be investigated or killed at this point, so it's probably a wasted lynch. Aside from the Pine fascination, looks to be town.

Zinger I think is town-3rd party-mafia in that likelihood order.

Alright, so he thinks silver is probably town, and has Zinger as town too. One thing doesn't make as much sense to me though, and it just might be a me reaction, but I would rather lynch someone I lean town over someone I have a town read on who claimed JK. Instead he just wanders off pushing on 3IF (the first time all game he has mentioned him).

Peregrine has never taken a very strong stance this game, and avoided the entire debate yesterday, despite apparent belief that both of the top wagons were on town. I cannot see town aligned pony making that move.

Vote Peregrine

Other good lynches: chkballin, Izak and maybe oversoul and chevre

[David Xanatos]

Nero you're doing that thing where you ignore the bit at the end that proves that it is out of context.

I fail too see how Zinger stating that he's not confirmed anything and you responding "Oh u isn't confirmed scums, just our best chance of catching dems." is taking things out of content. You spent several posts stating that YOU felt Zinger was confirmed scum and would 100% NOT flip town. But when he was nearly lynched you changed your stance that he was no longer 100% scum. To me this looks like distancing from a lynch. Apparently I don't get how this is out of context so feel free to explain it for me.

So I think that Silver is most likely scum. However I don't like how quickly people jump to it, I assume that everyone's logic is the same as mine, but what about Andrew and ZeL1nK? Both have done some suspicious things and no one seems to be considering it much. Town, you can't have tunnel vision you must observe all possibilities and decide which makes the most sense. Once again, I think silver is scum but I want to explore other options so I won't be voting.

Do I really need to explain why this is full of fail?

I said that I do find Silver scummy. However look at people who are voting silver blindly

Moar discredit the wagon.

Its three votes, I don't see why you are so worried?

Crap discredit fight with Pere.

So, as it turned out I didn't have a ton of time during those 3 days or so to reread the thread and take notes.

........................................................
You have time to post 200 times but you don't have time but you don't have time to read?

First part: I don't really see Junpei distancing. He points out his other opinions but he still makes it clear that he's fully behind the Zinger lynch.

Second part: Yes, you do. He's making the point that people seem to be simply bandwagon hopping without providing their own reasons.. and frankly that'd concern me too. In my opinion, he's basically saying "I think Silver is scum, but there's no sense in a quick-lynch if we can get more information out of this".

Third part: I read that as including yesterday too.. Silver had 8-9 votes on him.

Psst, he didn't post 200 times in night phase by the way.

PEDIT: Rainbow, gonna expand on your other "Good lynch" pool reasoning?

[Junpei]

FIX

So, as it turned out I didn't have a ton of time during those 3 days or so to reread the thread and take notes.

........................................................
You have time to post 200 times but you don't have time to read?

There's a difference between posting over a three week span and having 3 days to re-evaluate everything. Let me break it down for you.

30th: I had to hang out with my girlfriend and after that go to my grandparents house to load wood and cut ivy from their trees. This was also the day I went to the store to pick up a book for my homework

31st: There's a Jappanese student whom is living with a friend of mine and is leaving in two days to return to Japan, so all of us went to the beach to hang out and show him the area. That was most of my day but I also got back and downloaded and tried out BLC (yeah I know this is recreational, but this isn't all I do). This is also the day that I did my thought. I got home at a decent time so after playing BLC I did my quick analysis and decided I'd track Vezok. I had to go to dinner later that night. I knew that the next day I'd be gone almost all day and might end up not coming home till late in the day on the 2nd.

1st(Aug): Uncle/Aunt from orgean came over to my grandparents house for the day, I left at 10AM my time and was there until 6PM (at grandparents house) before going out to eat with my uncle/aunt (it was a big deal in particular because some relatives from south america, not my relatives, uncles' relatives were there) and didn't return till 9PM. I thought that it was possible I'd end up hanging out at my friends' house with the jappanese student for the night and play super mario bros. I ended up not doing that because I didn't want to miss the start of the day, but I was tired when I got home, so I went to sleep.

I hate to spill my life out in the thread but this is why I don't have a detailed analysis on my tracking option.

I'll comment on your other post soon.

[Junpei]

1) Nero when I said confirmed I didn't mean literally confirmed. Zinger said "OH, how am I LITERALLY confirmed scum?" to which I basically said " you aren't confirmed you scum you're most likely scum". How doesn't that make sense to you? He was pretty much confirmed in my eyes by how scummy he was. You are misinterpreting the whole situation.

2) yes

3) Well DX kind of touched on it in that I was referring to yesterday as well, but not specific to the silver lynch. I'm talking about people voting blindly without stating reasoning in general, so while yes it does apply to the last day, it applies to mafia in a universal sense.

[izakthegoomba]

Ok, just got back to this.

Given the state of things righ now, I'd be fine with a Silver lynch, though I want to look into it a bit more before I place my vote.

However, Junpei's reasoning for the track target is flimsy at best. Plus, from what I've heard, Vezok is a regular VI.

@Vezok I know this has been said already, but do you know if Junpei is lying?

Also, I'm waiting on this whole neiborizing thing MoI has going on.

[hipaddict1]

LEON, I think i made it obvious yesterdfay i thought Silver was scum, this is merely a continuation of that, really. Meransiel is pretty towny in my eyes, dont support his lynch in the slightest.

Not going to lie, junpeis track result has me scared, out of all the players; WHY WOULD YOU TRACK VEZOK?

[hipaddict1]

accidently bolded the whole post, whoops

[Pinky and the Brain]

All we need to do is wait for vezo to confirm/deny that Junpei is a lying scumbag. Withholding our vote until then.

-diddin, who also made the last post by this hydra.

[silverbullet999]

I'm using my main since my hydra just doesn't talk and more than likely flaked or just doesn't give a damn at this point. (Note To Self: Only hydra with people I actually know)

Anyway

...

VOTE: Nero
Same as yesterday.

-MOI

This Silver discussion I think is very warranted.

With Zinger's flip as Town the way that the Silver wagon briefly crested above Zinger's ( I think at 9 votes to 8 IRRC) and then dropped in favor of Zinger's final wagon is very telling if Silver is scum.

If he's scum there is a goldmine of scum to be found voting for Zinger during that swing period.

On the other hand if he's Town there is not much to be gained.

This irks me. If i'm scum the way you word this seems to be the people on my wagon saw that Zinger was the more probable lynch and hopped back on instead of bussing me. Yet if I'm town, then the people who swung don't reveal anything? Why's that the case?

[Junpei]

@people who are confused at the fact that I chose Vezok, I'm fine with answering any questions regarding it.

[Rodion]

Ok, just got back to this.

Given the state of things righ now, I'd be fine with a Silver lynch, though I want to look into it a bit more before I place my vote.

However, Junpei's reasoning for the track target is flimsy at best. Plus, from what I've heard, Vezok is a regular VI.

@Vezok I know this has been said already, but do you know if Junpei is lying?

Also, I'm waiting on this whole neiborizing thing MoI has going on.

I think people left many questions to you back in D1 before you went V/LA.

One that was quite common was a request that you name your top 5 scum reads. Please do it. Shotty, please do the same.

[Castle Bravo]

Okay, I am most suspicious of Rodion after reviewing this game.

On my site we never let people live after altering claims especially after altering claims when you claimed not to be town. So we'd never have let Zinger live yesterday.

He just seemed to be earning silly brownie points by acting townie and starting suspicions for day 2 without any active attempts to derail the zinger wagon or explain why he wasn't content to see it hammered.

I don't see that as a townie attitude, I feel certain he's scum.

Vote: Rodion

[Meransiel]

Ok, I did NOT expect that night kill, still boggles me. I think it was perfectly random. Anyway,I will

Vote: Silver

for now, lament a bit that he wasn't the D1 lynch.

@magna: Looking forward to your line of thought.
@Zel1nk: Please confirm that you DID shoot last night, and it simply didn't work.
@Rodion: A definite, consistent and exemplified case for why I am scum please.

[vezokpiraka]

@people who are confused at the fact that I chose Vezok, I'm fine with answering any questions regarding it.

He is right. I went nowhere.

But I don't understand why you tracked me?

[Meransiel]

@people who are confused at the fact that I chose Vezok, I'm fine with answering any questions regarding it.

I have only 1 question. Have you played with vezok before?

[Junpei]

@people who are confused at the fact that I chose Vezok, I'm fine with answering any questions regarding it.

I have only 1 question. Have you played with vezok before?

No sir, I had no meta behind my reasoning for choosing Vezok anyway.

[andrew94]

admiral, you should know better than to call me sailing under the boat. thats a bad case and it is tunneling.

silver classicly saying 'im just continuely with my day 1 scum reads' (Same as admiral there)
meransiel i recalled you saying you would be useful day 2. care to share?

[ThAdmiral]

@ peregrine: I don't think junpei's choice was that bad, and the reasoning he gave seems reasonable to me. I don't see why you think it's suspicious.
If vezok claims he's lying that's something else.

Edit: which he didn't.

That being said:
@ junpei: your 1481 is terribad. You voice support for the second lead lynch from yesterday, who is therefore logically the likely lynch leader today, and then you say you aren't going to vote and that you are going to explore other options... but then you don't explore other options. You mention Andrew and Zellink, say that "have done some suspicious things", but don't mention what these things are.

10/10 A+ lynch, would do it again in a second.

Stubbornness ftw!!!
I personally think the lynch was closer to a 2 or 3/10. This is probably because I prefer my lynches to catch scum.

That being said... I like your case on peregrine. He has seemed to be throwing a lot of mud around, but not taking any stances or doing any proper scumhunting.

Okay, I am most suspicious of Rodion after reviewing this game.

On my site we never let people live after altering claims especially after altering claims when you claimed not to be town. So we'd never have let Zinger live yesterday.

He just seemed to be earning silly brownie points by acting townie and starting suspicions for day 2 without any active attempts to derail the zinger wagon or explain why he wasn't content to see it hammered.

I don't see that as a townie attitude, I feel certain he's scum.

Vote: Rodion

He wasn't the only person saying they didn't like the zinger wagon. Why single out rodion?

WHY WOULD YOU TRACK VEZOK?

But I don't understand why you tracked me?

Are you trolling? I remember him answering this question on the last page.

admiral, you should know better than to call me sailing under the boat. thats a bad case and it is tunneling.

silver classicly saying 'im just continuely with my day 1 scum reads' (Same as admiral there)

Is it a bad case because it is wrong? Am I really tunnelling? I spent most of yesterday attacking people that

weren't

you if I recall correctly. (and I do)

Also what are you trying to imply in your second line? The nk didn't really do anything to change my reads, should it have?

What are your reads now? Are they completely different?

[Meransiel]

admiral, you should know better than to call me sailing under the boat. thats a bad case and it is tunneling.

silver classicly saying 'im just continuely with my day 1 scum reads' (Same as admiral there)
meransiel i recalled you saying you would be useful day 2. care to share?

I was useful day 1 too. I also expressed a suspicion of silver that I have no reason to change right now. Therefore, yeah, I know what to do and if something new sparks up, which I don't guarantee but will be in the lookout for, I may change my suspicions. The lynch didn't reveal anything, I thought Zinger was town anyway, the night kill was random as hell, so there's nothing new to go on.

[drmyshottyizsik]

VoTe sIlvEr

It'S tHe obVioUs lyNch foR toDaY.

WhO Not TO LynCh

RainbOwdash/sLatE/CrOpPy
MoI

[Banshee]

Responding to Rodion from before the lynch.

2 - You misunderstood the aforementioned "newbie defense". It wasn't really a defense on the grounds that "I don't know how to play mafia and thus am prone to crack under pressure even if I am town", it was actually a warning to MoI and Vifam that their attacks on me could look scummy because they were grasping at straws against someone that had a join date that was below 1 week, so it sounded like an easy lynch. It didn't really matter whether I was/am a newbie or whether I'm the greatest mafia player in the world: what mattered was the perception of my experience/skills by those that decided to accuse me with so little and they didn't have a lot to base their perception from other than "he joined the site less than a week ago". Leather Jacket's ensuing attack/vote on MoI only confirmed the risk of attacking the "newbie", meaning my warning was spot on.

Why would you warn people not to do things that might be perceived as scummy? What if they ARE scum? Why would you be so certain that they are not?

3 - Do not worry, you will not see me using the newbie defense in the way I described it in "2" (I'm too proud to imply that I suck and thus should be treated differently). The problem is that I don't yet know the

mores

of this site and that could lead to people reading "scumtells" where there shouldn't be.

Everyone has their own way of finding scum and will detect different scumtells, so this shouldn't be your concern if you're town. Town doesn't have to worry about giving off scumtells.

5 - Mind explaining how I reacted oddly to both Zinger and Zelink's claims?

3 - How common are mafia busdrivers here? Zelink said he'd vig Zinger, should we be worried that a mafia busdriver redirects the kill into someone else? I'm still confused as to whether Zelink made a joke when he claimed vig or not and his "sarcasm" was only present when he replied to Oversoul's weird post (Oversoul asked the claimed vig to protect someone - I think it was simply a poor phrasing and he actually asked the doc to protect the vig - or the person the vig promised to kill). Also, if the vig claim is serious, Zelink, would you also name claim so we test the theory on the randomness of roles (a theory you mentioned yourself in #122)?

Zinger claimed 3rd-party, I don't see the harm in wanting to know more about his claim: it's not like we're outing a town PR. I'm also curious about the logic behind people claiming Zinger "townslipped".

There you go.

6 - Please show where I asked for as many details as possible on those claims.

See above.

9 - Furthermore, I don't see how being new (either "new to mafia" or "new to this site") makes me unable to correct the misunderstandings I see. It just takes reading comprehension, not leet mafia experience. Do you disagree?

No, I agree, being able to correct misunderstandings has nothing to do with experience anywhere. I think that CHOOSING to correct those misunderstandings and trying to smooth things over is characteristic of someone who is either new to Mafia or new to this site. Why would you dismiss things as misunderstandings rather than allowing whatever discussion comes from those things to continue? It looks rather like scum directing the play of their buddies, and that's why I mentioned it.

10 - Hydra - yes, I did. I don't see a pro-town reason to make yourself "unmetable" after you already claimed. If you've got nothing to hide, you should be willing to be read as an open book.

There are plenty of reasons for people to conceal their identities, some of which have nothing to do with this particular game. It's not revealing of the role of the concealed hydra, so it's not a scumtell. It's something that irritates you. There's a difference. Additionally, you claim not to know anyone here anyway, so I don't see how it could affect your play significantly unless you plan to meta each and every one of the players in this game.

@ThAdmiral

: Why are you so convinced that Rodion is town? You've defended him at least twice; I'm curious to know why.