Newbie 1138 - Game Over! Town Win!

[Honest Abel]

@DC: And the fact that you hold the strategy you describe in that second quote in such high esteem makes it look like you could be capable of doing all this for that reason. This is probably the single scummiest fact against you. Noted.

[whilst]

Nobody Special

B) It's not "really bothering" me; but I think you might should tell us anyway. I, for one, would love some insight to your thinking.

What about it would you like to know? How I play? What I think of everyone here?

DarkClaymore

Well did you ever consider that I might've thought your lynchbait ploy to be complete garbage? Because I do.

That's not something that town would do. Even me, the one who is totally against loud reasons, would still find myself suspicious if I were watching from the side. You can't say you have nothing on me. Because you have by default. Maybe you don't trust these reasons but they are there and you have them.

Sure then, I think you're scummy. Happy? Seriously, you need to find someone else to argue with. You haven't persuaded the other players and you only seem to have confused yourself.

You really want to see a problem with me. I followed Abel's argument with you the entire time (remember? You said I was "just pleasing everyone"). If it's any credit to Abel, I did agree with some of his points. I'm glad you pointed out that post, you felt a bit pressured, didn't you? Are you feeling more pressured now because I may have the same opinion?

Pressured? You kidding? I even forgot that post existed and that you even suspected me at first. You just totally didn't look like you are even trying to chase me. You didn't vote nor did you attempt to attack me with arguments. You just put me there and like "Lol. Let's see what happens." . That's not protown even in the slightest.

Um, why can't I do some scumhunting of my own? And no, I wasn't kidding. But I guess you didn't feel pressured. Be careful when you throw around "that's not pro-town". We wouldn't want to end up being a hypocrite, would we?

As for calling my strategy a fail. You have no proof it failed as we don't know Whilst's alignment. Just because YOU don't want to agree with my theory doesn't mean it's ME who is wrong. And maybe I just hate norms and that's why I prefer to do unusual things. Though, I still think this strategy is better for a poor scumhunter like me. I prefer to do this than each and every time ending up being frustrated due to missing scum.

Except there are three people that know my alignment.

1.

Me

2&3.

The two mafia scum.

[DarkClaymore]

Way to miss the point and retreat to your same old defense. The point of juxtaposing those two quotes was to point out not that you are acting scummy, but that you yourself say that acting that way is something scum do. Note the difference between "acting scummy" and actually being scum. This is one thing that your "You can't prove I'm scummy because I'm doing it on purpose" defense actually can't defend.

I wasn't trying to defend with this. I didn't say "please don't lynch me because I'm obviously scummy". I just stated my reason for playing in this way. I not even once said that you shouldn't lynch me because of it. Rather, I'd even say it won't really make much difference if you lynch Whilst first. If he flips town, you'll think I'm scum. If he flips scum, you'll think it's bussing due to my reason being poor in your eyes and no way it hit scum. The way I see it, if you were to lynch Whilst, I'd most likely be lynched the day after it. So protecting myself by asking you to not lynch me due to being scummy didn't really have much point. I was pretty sure I'd be lynched whatever you lynch me or Whilst first.

DC. Thoughts on trying to change your playstyle, since this one obv isn't working?

This:

I already revealed everything. There's no point in keeping it up now.

And this:

As for calling my strategy a fail. You have no proof it failed as we don't know Whilst's alignment. Just because YOU don't want to agree with my theory doesn't mean it's ME who is wrong.

Darky, is English your first language?

No

Sure then, I think you're scummy. Happy? Seriously, you need to find someone else to argue with. You haven't persuaded the other players and you only seem to have confused yourself.

I didn't confuse myself. Atm, you fit what I was searching for with the lynchbait play. If my theory failed, so be it. I'll make a new one. You know? I have more. You are implying my idea was a fail, right?
But who was the one who called my question about the hypothetical situation with lynchbait "nice"? And who, after answering it, fits atm to the very pattern he gave in the answer?
That's right. It's you. Because the lynchbait isn't Cav. It's me. I'm the one who most people suspect.

Um, why can't I do some scumhunting of my own? And no, I wasn't kidding. But I guess you didn't feel pressured. Be careful when you throw around "that's not pro-town". We wouldn't want to end up being a hypocrite, would we?

But you didn't even put effort. It was said and I'll say it again. You were trying to please people. But it seems like we all know that so there's no point to keep mentioning this. I personally don't buy the "Whilst always plays like this" wine. If you are known for playing like this as town, moreover you'll be playing like this as scum.

Except there are three people that know my alignment. 1. Me 2&3. The two mafia scum.

Or 2 if you are scum.

[Bricktoes]

The only reason I did was Abel putting

too much

effort into finding why I'm scum.

How much is too much effort into winning the game?

So why exactly we let it slide?

The ppoint was to rebut that your playstyle has found scummy behavior or revealed whilst as scum. It hasn't.

You do realize you do something worse than me, right?

You're right, what you do is bad enough.

And I myself have nothing on IAI so I can't join the wagon. And of course since it'll be a lynch then I'm not allowed to do so anyway.

IAI is scummy for the same reasons whilst is, ScumClaymore.

As for calling my strategy a fail. You have no proof it failed as we don't know Whilst's alignment. Just because YOU don't want to agree with my theory doesn't mean it's ME who is wrong.

Your strategy revealed nothing new. You also admitted that it was usekess if revealed and not only continued playing by it after revealing it, but went after whilst long after your reveal.

And maybe I just hate norms and that's why I prefer to do unusual things.[/quolameThat's just lame.

[Bricktoes]

Once more, with clarity.

And maybe I just hate norms and that's why I prefer to do unusual things.

That's just lame.

[Honest Abel]

DC, stop saying wine, you don't know what it means.

Your defense for my previous point is irrelevant. Let's repeat: you admitted a great strategy for scum would be to act scummy so that they would have a reason to never die at night, because we would think scum wouldn't kill such a scummy player. I don't get why you started talking about whilst. Irrelevant.

NS and I are wondering if you will change your playstyle. Your response to that was irrelevant. Are you going to start scumhunting given that your previous strategy was a huge, blundering catastrophe?

Let's go over this one more time for clarity: Your lynchbait strategy is a fail regardless of whether whilst is town or not. It's a fail because you put the spotlight on yourself, muddled up the game, acted scummy enough to ruin reads on other people, have done nothing useful, put town in a tough position, and played against your wincon.

[Honest Abel]

Also, explain why whilst not voting for you proves that he's scum. I thought lynchbait is supposed to make scum vote for you because you're giving stupid reasons for people to vote for you?

[Honest Abel]

The most important question here is whether or not you're going to change your playstyle to help the town, or if you're going to muck around uselessly for the rest of the game. Which is it? Pick one now.

[DarkClaymore]

How much is too much effort into winning the game?

Going and summarizing all the post I made for example?

Since we all love mafiascum so much
http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... e_At_Mafia

Mt favorite part is:

If you attempt to do a "meta read" on someone to see if they do or did something the same way in a different game, you are heavily biased toward seeing what you wanted to see in the first place.
If you attempt to make a Post by Post Analysis (abbreviated PbPA, wherein you list each of a target player's posts and critique each one), you are very likely to find yourself stretching to justify a conclusion you already had in mind beforehand with posts that don't actually add anything.

In fact, PbPAs are quite possibly the most pointless ways you can waste time in Mafia

.

Of course, you can counter attack me with this from the same article if you want:

Even if you're just a Vanilla Townie, the fact that you are Town doesn't legitimize everything you do as pro-Town or not scummy.

In essence, don't play like lynchbait

- you know that you're Town, but everyone else doesn't and they're not going to take your word for it.

The ppoint was to rebut that your playstyle has found scummy behavior or revealed whilst as scum. It hasn't.

I consider him scum now. If you don't like my reasons, again, it's not my fault. For me, my lynchbait play made me suspect someone.

IAI is scummy for the same reasons whilst is, ScumClaymore.

He seems like a lurker to me if anything...

Your strategy revealed nothing new

I didn't suspect Whilst before that. If you did, congrats. You are a good scumhunter if he flips scum at some point.

That's just lame.

Norms are BS and I hate them. I really find it difficult to understand why people refuse so much to accept new things. If you haven't seen something as "strange" as my lynchbait play, I'd say you have seen nothing.

I saw a player claiming JOAT on D1. Town somewhat suspected him as they didn't believe his claim, so he was lynchbait. But not enough to be lynched. The mafia didn't believe him either and hoped he'll be lynched at some point due to him being lynchbait.

In the end he survived like this even though he

really

was JOAT. I'd say this is even more unusual then my lynchbait play.

DC, stop saying wine, you don't know what it means.

I do and I'm using it correctly. Tell me why I'm not and I'll stop.

Your defense for my previous point is irrelevant. Let's repeat: you admitted a great strategy for scum would be to act scummy so that they would have a reason to never die at night, because we would think scum wouldn't kill such a scummy player. I don't get why you started talking about whilst. Irrelevant.

I wanted to stress that from my point of view there was no point in defending myself at all. And I already said it - I could be scum playing lynchbait as much as town. You expect me to make up some kind of reason which will make me appear town?

Then sorry:

1. How many games have you played at MafiaScum?
2. Have you played anywhere else prior to MafiaScum?

3. Do you believe in magic?

4. Know any of the other players in the game from prior games?

1. First
2. Played 3 before on another forum and playing my 4th one there atm.

3. Not in RL

4. Honest Abel. From this very game which took place before this game.

Also, explain why whilst not voting for you proves that he's scum. I thought lynchbait is supposed to make scum vote for you because you're giving stupid reasons for people to vote for you?

No. Scum

aren't

supposed to vote for me. They are supposed to avert their eyes from the lynchbait or even try to protect it a little. They want town points, not suspicion points. Is this way of thinking so unrealistic in your eyes? I think it's fairly logical no matter who you are.

Let's go over this one more time for clarity: Your lynchbait strategy is a fail regardless of whether whilst is town or not. It's a fail because you put the spotlight on yourself, muddled up the game, acted scummy enough to ruin reads on other people, have done nothing useful, put town in a tough position, and played against your wincon.

First, for me finding scum with this strategy beats anything else. So if I hit it's not a fail in my book no matter what. Second, I hate when people make drama out of it. Why am I the only one who thinks this kind of situations are actually better for reads? Or rather, I'd ask the other way around. What makes it worse?

The most important question here is whether or not you're going to change your playstyle to help the town, or if you're going to muck around uselessly for the rest of the game. Which is it? Pick one now.

I already said that there's no point in keeping it up. Especially as I already found my target.

[Bricktoes]

Norms are BS and I hate them. I really find it difficult to understand why people refuse so much to accept new things. If you haven't seen something as "strange" as my lynchbait play, I'd say you have seen nothing.

[Bricktoes]

Wow.

[Honest Abel]

DC, stop saying wine, you don't know what it means.

I do and I'm using it correctly. Tell me why I'm not and I'll stop.

You could say wine about anything. You don't because it's not necessary to bring it into every situation. whilst is not acting in any way he can control. He's the same ineffective, blundering townie he always is. You should only talk about WIFOM when you are trying to consider how far someone would go to make you think the opposite of what's true. It just does not have any reasonable amount of bearing on my statement. I wasn't saying "Is whilst acting like this because he knows I know he knows that I expect him to act a certain way?" Wine just makes things more confusing and lends an air of uncertainty to an argument, which you seem to love doing for some reason.

I wanted to stress that from my point of view there was no point in defending myself at all. And I already said it - I could be scum playing lynchbait as much as town. You expect me to make up some kind of reason which will make me appear town?

I expect you to act like town. I expect you to show us that you are concerned about the town win condition if you are town. I expect you to find any way to avoid doing so if you are scum. And that's what you've been doing, and are still doing.

No. Scum

aren't

supposed to vote for me. They are supposed to avert their eyes from the lynchbait or even try to protect it a little. They want town points, not suspicion points. Is this way of thinking so unrealistic in your eyes? I think it's fairly logical no matter who you are.

How would voting for you, a clearly scummy scumbag, cast any suspicion at all on whilst? It's not only illogical, it's unsound, and so are you.

First, for me finding scum with this strategy beats anything else. So if I hit it's not a fail in my book no matter what. Second, I hate when people make drama out of it. Why am I the only one who thinks this kind of situations are actually better for reads? Or rather, I'd ask the other way around. What makes it worse?

Nobody gives a flying fuck about what's in your book. We are trying to win a team game here. Fuck you for ignoring that if you are town. A+ job if you are scum.

I already said that there's no point in keeping it up. Especially as I already found my target.

And what have you done to your target? How has whilst being your target helped the town? If whilst turns out to be scum, you've actually hurt the town, because I'm certainly not lynching whilst for your nonsense.

I cannot deal with this guy anymore. I give up. Sorry, NS. I cannot justify letting this guy survive to D3.

UNVOTE: I Am Innocent
VOTE: DarkClaymore

[DarkClaymore]

I expect you to act like town. I expect you to show us that you are concerned about the town win condition if you are town. I expect you to find any way to avoid doing so if you are scum. And that's what you've been doing, and are still doing.

So what should I do? Point fingers at people with reasons YOU will find reasonable and I won't?
That's just acting and it's scum play.

How would voting for you, a clearly scummy scumbag, cast any suspicion at all on whilst? It's not only illogical, it's unsound, and so are you.

Maybe because I'll flip town latter on and he knows that?
Why you want to present me as some kind of alien when it makes OBVIOUS sense.
It's basic logic that scum will want to avoid gaining suspicion point. And if you say that being on a wagon of a townie doesn't give you suspicion points, then I give up.

And what have you done to your target? How has whilst being your target helped the town? If whilst turns out to be scum, you've actually hurt the town, because I'm certainly not lynching whilst for your nonsense.

That's your choice. If you insist so much on resisting everything I say because you can't for a moment to think in a different direction, then there's really nothing I can do.

Nobody gives a flying fuck about what's in your book. We are trying to win a team game here. Fuck you for ignoring that if you are town. A+ job if you are scum.

Oh, yeah? Then when do you get better reads?
When nothing happens or when something happens?
If you say it's the latter, then you agree with me that my lynchbait actually improves the reads. Because nothing was happening before that.

[Honest Abel]

From now on, I'm not going to respond to anything you say that isn't protown. I think that's a smart move for everyone.

[DarkClaymore]

From now on, I'm not going to respond to anything you say that isn't protown. I think that's a smart move for everyone.

What is protown then? Tell me please. I'd like to learn.
Attack players?

[Bricktoes]

Darky, you dodged my earlier question about your first language. Please respong. Follow up question: have you ever gone by the screenname Words of Ivory?

[Bricktoes]

Oh, you did. Still, follow up question.

[Honest Abel]

Okay, less nonsense, dicknose.

[whilst]

Sure then, I think you're scummy. Happy? Seriously, you need to find someone else to argue with. You haven't persuaded the other players and you only seem to have confused yourself.

I didn't confuse myself. Atm, you fit what I was searching for with the lynchbait play. If my theory failed, so be it. I'll make a new one. You know? I have more. You are implying my idea was a fail, right?
But who was the one who called my question about the hypothetical situation with lynchbait "nice"? And who, after answering it, fits atm to the very pattern he gave in the answer?
That's right. It's you. Because the lynchbait isn't Cav. It's me. I'm the one who most people suspect.

I think your username is nice. Claymore is a nice anime. Dark is a nice adjective. I am nice to my friends. I've said a lot of nice things. Please, nitpick me more. I never said cavjj was lynchbait. The only reason I could care if more people suspect you, is if they suspect you for the wrong reasons, i.e. you're a townie and you're just getting caught up in the game in the wrong way. This is why I interjected previously with Abel's argument with you. I've been giving everyone the benefit of the doubt (except cavjj really), but you just keep digging yourself in the ground. Why is it so hard to stop chasing me?

Why don't I repeatedly attack cavjj? I have nothing else on him besides his hammer lynch, but I'm not wasting my time on him. There are two mafia scum, not one. If you hit a dead end with one, you move on. I've told you to move on; I'm trying to help you.

Nothing Special, take note of this above response. It may be an answer to your question.

Um, why can't I do some scumhunting of my own? And no, I wasn't kidding. But I guess you didn't feel pressured. Be careful when you throw around "that's not pro-town". We wouldn't want to end up being a hypocrite, would we?

But you didn't even put effort. It was said and I'll say it again. You were trying to please people. But it seems like we all know that so there's no point to keep mentioning this. I personally don't buy the "Whilst always plays like this" wine. If you are known for playing like this as town, moreover you'll be playing like this as scum.

Don't use material from outside of the game. This game is separate from the rest. I have not clicked on any of your links to outside games. Why should I consider them? You could be a different player, with a different role. As could I. Go ahead, don't trust Abel. If anything, help him find who the scum is.

Again

, I am trying to help you.

From now on, I'm not going to respond to anything you say that isn't protown. I think that's a smart move for everyone.

What is protown then? Tell me please. I'd like to learn.

Attack players?

You really want to see a problem with me. I followed Abel's argument with you the entire time (remember? You said I was "just pleasing everyone"). If it's any credit to Abel, I did agree with some of his points. I'm glad you pointed out that post, you felt a bit pressured, didn't you? Are you feeling more pressured now because I may have the same opinion?

Pressured? You kidding? I even forgot that post existed and that you even suspected me at first. You just totally didn't look like you are even trying to chase me. You didn't vote nor did you attempt to attack me with arguments. You just put me there and like "Lol. Let's see what happens." .

That's not protown even in the slightest.

reference
Also, control your emotions. Abel has posted plenty to wreak havoc on your nerves, in my opinion. He wants you to slip up, and really you have been. Just look at this example above. This would be my sly remark: "Well I thought you knew what protown was? (boldface for emphasis)". Abel has been gunning for your head for a while now, perhaps I should become more pro-active (or is it aggressive) and throw a vote onto you. Besides, I know my lynch with cavjj won't go anywhere--I get it. Everyone else seems to have cleared him of suspicion save for a few "gut" instinct takes anyway. Yeah, I could try more to get him lynched, but what has he posted for me to go on? Nothing. If I were like you, I'd repeat the same thing over and over and over again, something like "he hammered, but he hammered. Oh he hammered" -- a similar tune to your "whilst likes to please people".

For any of you who read this and think "so if DC excuses whilst, whilst will think DC is innocent" -- no, that's not the case. I'm asking him to move on and be helpful in another way.

[whilst]

I cannot deal with this guy anymore. I give up. Sorry, NS. I cannot justify letting this guy survive to D3.

UNVOTE: I Am Innocent
VOTE: DarkClaymore

Yes you can. DC has one vote on him now, right? All right, no big deal. But, IAI has yet to post a reaction, right? Did you post why you were going to lynch IAI, or did I miss it?

I would like your reasoning too,

cavjj

.

I'm quoting myself here, just in case cavjj misses it.

[Honest Abel]

Working on it now, whilst. Patience.

[whilst]

Yeah yeah, take your time. We have all day.

[Honest Abel]

Well, here's the case on I Am Innocent. Feel free to add on if I miss anything. I went and read all of his posts and took notes. Then I waited a few hours and looked at my notes with a fresh eye to make sure I wasn't getting carried away since a lot of his posts were directed at me. I made sure to pick only the things that were actually scummy and not just things I was tacking on extraneously. So I hope this is as clear and unbiased as possible.

I Am Innocent

: ...Not

Major Point #1

He targeted me solely because I targeted him.

Rather than defend himself against my scumhunting and pressure, I Am Innocent chose to deflect suspicion back onto me — thereby freeing him from the obligation to answer for his actions and creating a diversion by making me look scummy, stupid, or dishonest instead. For example:

• In #158, instead of defending his vote on BBmolla with his reasons, he merely pointed out that I had a vote on BBmolla too and asked if anyone wanted a go. He diverted the issue by stating something that was already apparent but with a twist of accusation.
• Also in #158, he responded to my accusation that DarkClaymore followed his vote by attempting to make me look stupid for voting for him before DarkClaymore.
• In #165, he responded to my statement that I was growing wary of him and DarkClaymore on D1 not by asking why or by defending his D1 actions, but by pointing out that I didn't give a "hint," and so I must be lying. This was nothing more than an attempt to make me look dishonest, since a hint wouldn't have made a shred of difference either way. He repeats this same diversion ad nauseum in #182, #183, and #211, acting as though not giving a hint of my suspicions is paramount, when really it's inconsequential and he couldn't provide reasons it would have helped.
• In #183, he deflected my comment about suspecting him on D1 by quoting the post of mine in which I said GlaDOS's breakdown against nolynches is a good explanation. He juxtaposed "That's good explanation" with "I am becoming wary of you" to make me look self-contradictory, ignoring the fact that I was complimenting GlaDOS's explanation, not his quote of it.
• In #211 and #212, he reduces my observations (that he's not scumhunting, that he's twisting my words to divert attention from himself, and that he hasn't been acting protown) to mere abuse. He says that I'm berating his scumhunting abilities, even though he hadn't even used them yet. Perhaps if he had tried to scumhunt or put pressure on someone up to that point and I pointed out that his skills were weak, it could have made sense. But nothing like that occurred. It's simple deflection, baseless accusation, and quite possibly also an Appeal to Emotion.

Major Point #2

He sticks to what's easy.

He goes after the easy targets and makes easy posts.

• In #83, he leaps at the opportunity to have an easy chat about mechanics, and easily quotes GlaDOS's explanation of why nolynching is bad (Note: In #183, he takes full credit for his quoted explanation).
• In #85, he sees my "have a go at BBmolla" and uses it as an excuse to easily hop on the bandwagon with little reasoning behind his vote (because BBmolla didn't give a random reason with his random vote).
• In #117, he says his scumlist consists of DarkClaymore and cavjj, the two easiest targets at the time, seeing as they were the L-1 and hammer on an abrupt mislynch.

Minor Points

• He's not playing his self-proclaimed town meta.
  He says, in #47, that he prefers town because it's challenging, and that his strategy is to make people take stances, push people to identify who they suspect, and analyze vote histories. In #183, he says his playstyle is to contribute as much as possible every day. He's been mostly absent and disengaged, and hasn't followed through on any part of his strategy.
  
• He's careful not to step on people's toes.
  Also in #47, he gives in to Wickedestjr's question about whether his "interesting" meant "suspicious." I Am Innocent replies that he meant "a tad suspicious." That's a very delicate appraisal, and he only made it when pressed. Note that he's careful not to step on people's toes, but when I question/pressure him, he reacts almost maliciously in self-preservation.
  
• He was followed by the same two players on each of his D1 votes.
  DarkClaymore and cavjj followed his lead on my wagon and BBmolla's wagon. This is significant mainly because those are two very newb players and he's an SE, so perhaps one of them was trying to follow his more-experienced buddy's lead.
  
• He acts confused about the Scumhunter nightkill.
  In #117, he says he's "not sure what scum was thinking." The professed confusion is noteworthy particularly because Scumhunter was an SE, the IC had been useless up to that point, and it should be fairly obvious that mafia would kill someone who's not a potential Doctor target.
  
• He simultaneously suspects and defends whilst.
  In #85, I Am Innocent has a "slight concern" for whilst not voting (which is another delicate appraisal), but then says he has a town read on whilst. The accuse/defend is a notorious scumtell since it shows that he doesn't want to take a stance. The comment also naturally contradicts itself, making it fluff.

[singersigner]

Vote Count 2.6

cavjj (1): whilst
DarkClaymore (2): dicknose, Honest Abel
Honest Abel (0):
whilst (2): DarkClaymore, Nobody Special
dicknose (0):
I Am Innocent (0):
Nobody Special (0):

Not Voting (3): cavjj, I Am Innocent

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch.

Mod Notes:

• Deadline is August 22nd, 2011 12am PST

Keep up the great activity, guys! I LOVE not knowing if my votecount is accurate or not because of all the pages I have to sift through. (on that note, please let me know if there are any discrepancies!)[/list]

[cavjj]

You have Nobody Special as both not voting and voting for whilst singer

So I did, thanks!
~singer