TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win

[David Xanatos]

Castle Bravo > Could be any number of things. The way you've worded it, Gunsmith.

[Rodion]

What is the easy lynch you're referring to? Silver or Shotty?

The answer, Rodion, would be yes.

A+ answer, champ!

@Rodion: Stop being obfuscating and MOTIVATE your vote on me. With actual...you know, motives.

#1565 - http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p3311570

On Andrew: MoI's case on Andrew is comprised of "1" , "2-A", "2-B", "2-C", "2-D" and "2-E". I don't agree with MoI finding scuminess in 1/2-A/2-B/2-C (like I earlier said, Andrew has a VI reputation and, unfortunately, that allows him to be unaccountable for a lot of crap). However, the lack of coherence between 2-D and 2-E is blatant.

As far as I know, these are the neighbourhood setups so far:
Andrew - MoI - ???
??? - MoI - Chkballin
(with possibly 1 more "???" to each if they recruited D1/N1/D2)

I still don't understand why Killerjester concluded Izak was in Andrew's neighbourhood. Someone please enlighten me on that.

As to how approach this situation in quick points:

1 - In my opinion, if we establish that Andrew wanted to preserve the integrity of the QT and he recruited someone he had a scum read on, I can throw my weight on hanging him.
2 - I need to know for sure who he recruited.
3 - If Andrew has a thread scum read on the recruited, he can hang (I quickly ISOed Andrew and I only saw D1 suspicions on Chkballin though, so I think this is not the case). If Andrew has a QT scum read on the recruited, then we need extra people to confirm that is correct, starting by the very recruited neighbour and by whoever can be D2 recruited. I'd suggest D2 recruitment to be stalled for now as we get some things clearer.

Rodion, what did you learn from that convo with Banshee?

I'll get to that later today.

[David Xanatos]

ISOing Andrew quickly, he also took shots at Easjo, Junpei and myself, and declared Izak town.. and not one of the declarations seemed to have a coherent reasoning behind it..

[silverbullet999]

-Dave

Got a moment to read over that. If you didn't realise, that was me making a comment. If I had to put my thoughts in a nutshell, it'd be the following.

"Stop trying to make a martyr of yourself and play to your goddamn win condition."

So basically your admitting it was another useless post that really wasn't productive in the slightest to the town. This is deja vu all over again except your now accusing me that I'm not playing to my win con which I obviously disagree with fully. Maybe... just maybe if you put more thought into your actual posts and tried to be... productive, instead of continuously trying to get into a useless back and fourth with me which would do nothing but clutter the thread. Maybe you'd actually be playing to your win con. Unless your scum.. upon which your doing a great job and if you persist i'm going to believe you aren't just an arrogant outspoken person. Instead i'd believe the former. So continue if you wish in your useless completely unproductive criticisms.

[David Xanatos]

Please explain how giving yourself up as a martyr is productive to Town.

To me, that's a mislynch, which means one less lynch used to actually hunt Scum, unless you are Scum, in which case you're getting yourself lynched for no reason, thereby hurting your team's chances, thereby not playing to your wincon.

[silverbullet999]

Which is better Dave. A Lynched VT... or a Lynched Townie PR. Which is better for town.

[Junpei]

Please explain how giving yourself up as a martyr is productive to Town.

To me, that's a mislynch, which means one less lynch used to actually hunt Scum, unless you are Scum, in which case you're getting yourself lynched for no reason, thereby hurting your team's chances, thereby not playing to your wincon.

this

There was nothing day 1 that should have made you so very confident that Zinger was indeed JK if you're VT.

[David Xanatos]

It depends entirely on the context. For example, Zinger was an absolute idiot, who lied about his role. You didn't KNOW that he was TPR. The only person you KNOW is Town is yourself, so you're giving up a confirmed VT (In your own eyes) to protect an unverified player of unknown alignment and role.

100% chance at VT or X% chance at TPR, which may also be VT, Scum, Third Party?

[silverbullet999]

It's called playing with and to extents being a fracking VI.

If Zinger was third party he could still be helpful.
If Zinger was scum he would not. A few people including myself were quite sure this was not the case and this was explained.
Simply put there was VERY little motivation for Zinger to claim third party and then switch it to town AS SCUM.

-Jun

There was nothing day 1 that should have made you so very confident that Zinger was indeed JK if you're VT.

What's the difference if I'm a VT or another town role?

--
I am again going to ask what the productiveness of this convo is... if you don't answer I'm moving my vote to you.

[Junpei]

It's called playing with and to extents being a fracking VI.

If Zinger was third party he could still be helpful.
If Zinger was scum he would not. A few people including myself were quite sure this was not the case and this was explained.
Simply put there was VERY little motivation for Zinger to claim third party and then switch it to town AS SCUM.

-Jun

There was nothing day 1 that should have made you so very confident that Zinger was indeed JK if you're VT.

What's the difference if I'm a VT or another town role?

--
I am again going to ask what the productiveness of this convo is... if you don't answer I'm moving my vote to you.

A cop serving himself up instead of Zinger would have been ridiculous even in theory and if a cop claim had done that we'd lynch him.

The point of this conversation is to investigate your d1 martyr action and determine if it was a town or scum thing to do. It is a very big point in the case against you and so far you've done nothing to show that you were so sure of Zinger.

Tell me silver in the posts you made after the martyr move, the posts where Zinger had gotten more votes, why didn't you acknowledge this fact and try to push the lynch onto yourself?

[David Xanatos]

You brought it up. Demanding that we meekly back down because you say so just shows that you have your head jammed firmly up your arse. You're implying you KNEW he was Town. No, you didn't. You guessed. Same as we suspected he'd be non-Town.

And here's the difference. If you were a day-scanning PR, apart from the obvious implications that you'd be even more of a fanny for trying to play the martyr card, you would KNOW his role. As a VT, you're an idiot who's guessing, and if you sacrifice yourself as a VT, KNOWING you're a VT, and in doing so rescue a Scum team member or a Third Party that'd be hostile to Town, you are actively impeding your win condition.

To put it in the simplest possible terms for you, there are six factions to consider.

Confirmed Town
Suspected Town
Confirmed Third Party
Suspected Third Party
Confirmed Scum
Suspected Scum

If someone isn't in group 1, you don't sacrifice yourself for them.

[Junpei]

Actually I'm going to

vote silver

My reasoning is that andrew's neighborhood would do good to get 1 or 2 more people in it (not sure if he's recruited today or not yet) and we know his role. However if silver is scum we don't know his scumrole so it'd be more dangerous to leave him alive.

For the record, yes this means that I find them similar in that they both possess a lot of scumminess, I do find andrew more scummy however my above logic makes me decide to vote silver.

[killerjester]

Ah, I think I slipped up. After MoI claimed to be a recruited neighbor and there were two neighborizers I assumed the second recruit also made himself known. Then I thought this post sounded like izak and MoI were talking in a QT, and he was voicing his opinion of the case MoI shared in the thread. Looking back, I can see how inconclusive it was. The second recruit hasn't claimed yet.

Just as Zinger was an idiot and lied about his role, I feel silver's also being an idiot, considering he's done this before. There's not a lot of reason for scum-silver to throw up a martyr gambit. Zinger wasn't scum, but silver's not right either.

[Nero Cain]

-Nero
What is your read on andrew?

ISO 33

since my vote is unfortunately unproductive at the moment... let's change it.
VOTE: The Continuously Opportunistic Izak

Look at the faux vote change.
+ Isn't the izak vote just as useless and why do you want lynch/wagon on him after stating you'd be fine with lynching Andrew?

It's too bad a Junpei lynch is off the table, because oh man this deflection post is golden.

But he wasn't deflecting away from himself. Does that still make it scummy?

but he's deflecting from a wagon on a slot that HE finds scummy. That what makes it bad.

MoI is not scum neither is Rainbow

try again.

You already responded to this post in a previous post, what was this post for?

was meant to be his 172 wich reads...

Rainbow is obv town. Maybe more to me than anyone else.

Wich doesn't explain anything!!!

Which is better Dave. A Lynched VT... or a Lynched Townie PR. Which is better for town.

but you let a claimed power role get lynched after you tried to play martyr witch just seems like a big

ATE

to me.

[silverbullet999]

I'm just going to start quoting posts until people get the message that I've addressed some of these questions already.

-Junpei

A cop serving himself up instead of Zinger would have been ridiculous even in theory and if a cop claim had done that we'd lynch him.

Don't you dare twist my words bud. Your questioning my confidence in Zinger as a JK if I was VT so again I ask

What's the difference if I'm a VT or another town role?

...

It is a very big point in the case against you and so far you've done nothing to show that you were so sure of Zinger.

Tell me silver in the posts you made after the martyr move, the posts where Zinger had gotten more votes, why didn't you acknowledge this fact and try to push the lynch onto yourself?

-Pinky and the Brain
Your, I didn't shove the LYNCH ME LYNCH ME "case".
1. I did that with Pine and you saw how well that worked out with you going... well Silver just keeps saying the same SHIT over and over again.
2. It's not like the thing was missed, EVERYONE read it and I constantly said I'm sure he's a VI
Basically your bitching that I'm stating the obvious too many times early on in the day... then when I change it and actually listen.. you bitch some more about me not repeating and capsing and all that shit. Good Stuff

Post 503
Post 633
Post 1060
Post 1121
Post 1184
Post 1190

Ninja
-Dave

You brought it up.

Wrong you brought this shit up. Don't you remember how you "commented on it" or are you really gonna claim you have short term memory loss all of a sudden. Actually with your intelligence level i'd be hard not to believe it at this point. Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall... you are so completely useless at this current juncture... because you constantly want to whiteknight/show your better than me in every which way for some unknown reason. If you have a strong read on someone you defend it or push it... you don't sit and do nothing especially when your role itself doesn't do much except stick around and vote (ala you can't make dramatic changes at night).

-Jun
*facepalm*

Both jun and dave are winning scum points here.. but I'd like actual productive pressure currently so more votes on izak please.

-Nero

+ Isn't the izak vote just as useless and why do you want lynch/wagon on him after stating you'd be fine with lynching Andrew?

1. No need to end the day early.
2. more people are willing to put pressure on Izak... or were.

but you let a claimed power role get lynched after you tried to play martyr witch just seems like a big ATE to me.

See above...

[Rainbowdash]

unvote
Vote oversoul

He continues to post everywhere but here.

DX continues to fight his way quickly up the needing death list.

I really am not overly comfortable with the andrew wagon given the makeup of it, but I will vote him in a second to stop a silver lynch. Would rather lynch a whole lot of others.

People should stop asking for reasons from DMSIK on why he reads me town. Especially if you haven't given a reason to think otherwise. Seriously.

[silverbullet999]

-Nero

Iso 33

Its possible that one of the neighborizers is scum, its also possible they are both town and while its much less of a possibility both could be scum but there was only one night kill so..

This is basically stating oh I think there's a possibility he's scum or not.. Idk for sure...

So again how do you read Andrew slight town slight scum... etc... make a choice

[Nero Cain]

slight town

[Junpei]

Nero, I wasn't trying to discredit the wagon, I was discrediting what Killerjester said. I thought it was scummy of killerjester to exclude those people.

Tell me nero do you think my post was wrong and that Killerjester wasn't intentionally hiding information? I think I proved in that post, and with his later post where he says that he did notice all the other identical votes but didn't feel they were as important that he did.

silver, 1 role has zero actions or other modifiers, one does. Is that seriously what you meant to ask?

@Rainbow softclaiming PR with inno on you is so stupid. The other thing he is claiming is masongroup with you and that is obvious to everyone who is reading it. Or perhaps he just meant you were really town to him via scumhunting. Not every read is from a report/mechanic.

[Nero Cain]

@Jun I have no clue what you mean by "hiding information" Did you mean he was being selective about it? Sure I can see that. But it was early and there was nothing but yesterdays 50+ pages to go on. What were they supposed to vote on?

[Junpei]

@Jun I have no clue what you mean by "hiding information" Did you mean he was being selective about it? Sure I can see that. But it was early and there was nothing but yesterdays 50+ pages to go on. What were they supposed to vote on?

That isn't the point, Nero.

Killerjester said that Silver's post was scummy because he was harboring his vote on you using the ol "follow up from day 1" as his sole excuse. However I pointed out to him that six others have done the same thing! To which killerjester replied...

I felt, following his play all game, his was the most condemning. Why are you discrediting silver's wagon so hard?

He felt his was the MOST condemning. That means that he knew of the six other cases and still decided not to point them out. The reason was to lynch silver, to make silver look worse than he is. I think silver is scum, I think we should lynch silver, but that is beside the point. Killerjester hid information intentionally to make his target lynch look good. This makes me less suspect Silver but given the possibility of more than 2 factions perhaps not so much.

[Rainbowdash]

@Rainbow softclaiming PR with inno on you is so stupid. The other thing he is claiming is masongroup with you and that is obvious to everyone who is reading it. Or perhaps he just meant you were really town to him via scumhunting. Not every read is from a report/mechanic.

If he doesn't want to go into it, and there is no need for him to go into it, people aren't going to force him to go into it. That means drop it.

What is your current thoughts on oversoul?

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

ISOing Andrew quickly, he also took shots at Easjo, Junpei and myself, and declared Izak town.. and not one of the declarations seemed to have a coherent reasoning behind it..

Andrew's a known massive VI. Check out the just-finished BBM's Large Werewolves, and marvel at how easy it was to get him lynched based pretty much solely on his playstyle. Bad reasoning would not necessarily make him scum. Though there is a perfectly rational basis for neighborizing scum reads. The question is, does it appear he was trying to scumhunt or not?

[Junpei]

@Rainbow softclaiming PR with inno on you is so stupid. The other thing he is claiming is masongroup with you and that is obvious to everyone who is reading it. Or perhaps he just meant you were really town to him via scumhunting. Not every read is from a report/mechanic.

If he doesn't want to go into it, and there is no need for him to go into it, people aren't going to force him to go into it. That means drop it.

What is your current thoughts on oversoul?

Well I thought that his being open to us and legitimate to us about why he wasn't posting was a town tell. But it seems even now he isn't posting and is refusing to comment on this game. I did like some of his posting earlier too but it has come to "im here guys dw" and that is bad. So my read for him has turned to scummy as he isn't following up with what he said and refuses to comment on the current game.

[killerjester]

He felt his was the MOST condemning. That means that he knew of the six other cases and still decided not to point them out. The reason was to lynch silver, to make silver look worse than he is. I think silver is scum, I think we should lynch silver, but that is beside the point. Killerjester hid information intentionally to make his target lynch look good. This makes me less suspect Silver but given the possibility of more than 2 factions perhaps not so much.

I did not misrepresent Silver's actions in any way.