Newbie 1138 - Game Over! Town Win!

[Nobody Special]

NS, why do you want to lynch whilst first? How will his flip help you determine what to do next more than IAI's flip? Not saying I disagree, but I want to hear why you think it.

My initial thinking was that I expected more from IAI than from whilst in the way of defense. Lo and behold, we've got it. (More in a bit.)

Yes, but I'm pretty sure of both my reads.

Two town flips means game over. One town flip puts us in trouble.

So instead of admitting your mistake, you counter with "I'm pretty sure of both my reads"?

The part that I'm sure I said, somewhere, is that I would like a whilst flip and then will go from there. I am certainly not locked into a whilst/IAI team --

especially

if one of you flips town (which, at this point, I doubt). That's just where I am at this moment. The "I'm pretty sure of both of my reads" part only speaks to my willingness to lynch either of you today (almost equally). [Hold up, this may change.]

Yes, but I'm pretty sure of both my reads.

Two town flips means game over. One town flip puts us in trouble.

So instead of admitting your mistake, you counter with "I'm pretty sure of both my reads"?

Yep, there's something wrong about that. Doesn't sound like he meant flip via nightkill, either. I think it's highly unlikely whilst or IAI would be nightkilled, obviously. It's not a scumslip, though, is it?

I address this above; if you need more clarification, I'll be happy to discuss further.

After reading IAI's responses, I'm less confident that he isn't town.

cavjj, I'd be particularly interested in your thoughts on whilst.

[DarkClaymore]

ABEL- Part 1

Stop quoting the wiki

Says the person who first brought a wiki article. I hoped at least something from the wiki will get through you, but sadly it seems like it doesn't. So I'll just conclude that nothing will.

First of all, you're not proving anything about yourself by quoting something you didn't write.

What...? Why am I supposed to prove something about myself when I'm trying to point out something about YOU?

Second, any goddamn idiot could have written that, it's a wiki. And if the person who wrote it isn't an idiot, I reserve the right to disagree anyway

Okay, then the second link here:

Game Theory (See also: Theory in the wiki).

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED READING!

This is taken from the "Newbie Game Queue" thread. As you can see, people HIGHLY RECOMMEND to read this. And you are't going to say the ones who created the thread are also idiots, right?

This clears part one. As for part two - sure, you have the right to disagree. If you are going to ignore the advice of the more experienced folks and just play however you want - I wish you good luck. I believe you'll need it.

Third, anything put on a wiki about strategy in this game is immediately null and void because it becomes public knowledge and everybody knows the tricks

This wasn't "strategy" but "advice". There's a big difference between the two as the latter should always be helpful. And just a note: none of what I cited were "tricks" to catch scum, but rather things you shouldn't do as town because it's either pointless or harms the town.

Also, here you said, and I quote, "There are

clear

and

definite

ways to help the town in this game". Isn't this also part of the "public strategy" that automatically becomes null? You are confusing me. I don't understand whatever you do or don't believe in what you said there and whatever you believe in well defined known strategies or not.

Fourth, I haven't made any decisions in this game based solely on potential scumbuddies

I just said you are pushing it a lot. Like when I asked why suddenly me and Whilst are the scumteam in your eyes, you said you see "more connection". If this isn't an obvious attempt to conclude something from connections between players then I don't know what it is.

don't outguess me that I'd write you off as an idiot and ignore your opinion, you don't know that.

I just added that so you won't ask me why I didn't put any effort into explaining what is written there.
Though, based on this:

it's going to lead to is just going to provide you another outlet to propagate your

nonsense

.

I believe my "outguess" was correct anyway.

Also, DC, why are you so faithful to your beloved wiki when you're all about using the "weird" strategy?

This thread, along with others there, aren't recommended for teh lulz. I read it and I think it's legit.
True, I came up with a strategy that goes against some of the things written there. But it's a "strategy". I wasn't just playing the "normal way", if that's how you'd like to see it, and relying on normal reads. I made something different, which I initially didn't really want to try in this specific game, and tried to see whatever it's better than the "normal" playstyle which, tbh, I find boring at times because everyone do it.

When I'm playing normally then I following what's written there and in other articles as much as I can or see fit. It's not like I have OVER 9000 unusual strategies.

ABEL- Part 2

I'm not letting someone think for themselves? Show me where I've turned down a good case or good pressure on someone. Show me any evidence at all that I'm making the town follow one person. You can't say such things without examples, especially when they're so obviously lies

You strongly attacked not only my lynchbait strategy, but also IAI's scumhunting. Only because you don't like it doesn't mean you have to attack and insult. You just make yourself appear like some kind of "ALL CAPS RAGE" guy that no one want to mess around with. This automatically blocks many opinions that could have brought forth by players.

Some people will just avoid messing with you and will refrain from stating their opinions.

I'm not unaccepting of new ideas and strategies. I'll listen to anything, evaluate it, and tell you whether it's shit or not, honestly

You have no right to call my strategy "shit" when you yourself doing many things against what town should do. Yes, I'm talking about that article from wiki. If my lynchbait doesn't fit the "defined way to help town" then neither many of your own actions.

I did ask you to cite your sources first and foremost, if I recall correctly. After a while without citing, I started calling your stories nonsense.

True, you asked: #289
I did give you the links, as pointless as I thought it is: #298
Then you attack me and call what I say "nonsense" because I didn't cite: 343

There was no need to attack. You could just ask me to cite again like you did the first time. You saw that I gave you the links back then, but you still chose to attack me the second time. And I still gave you the more specific links anyway: #345

And this is all with putting aside I was referring to the same game the first and second time anyway. But you couldn't have possibly known that.

Appearing confident is an important part of adding pressure. A statement so self-assured and intuitive like "lol, looks like we have our scumteam" is going to dismantle a scumteam more than "Well, here are all the reasons my previous case doesn't work anymore. I admit its shortcomings could apply to any case I make in the future. That said, my next suspicion is that these two gentlemen are a scumteam."

I think neither put any pressure more than votes or pointing out new things. Just going around and singing how you found the scumteam puts pressure on no one. As townie I know you are wrong and if I were scum I'd know you are just guessing. You are just wasting our time by making us read pointless material.

Otherwise, what am I supposed to do? Keep talking to IAI all day and let DC just sit there silent at his computer? Nah.

What I didn't like is how you never gave a solid reason as to why me and whilst as scumteam is the winner in your eyes even though you were pretty sure it's IAI a short while ago. You just said there's more "connection" which is weak reasoning as you should know that most likely you won't find any obvious connection between the scum before you lynch one of them.

but I'm not concerned about whether or not I make you look scummy by not leaving anything for you to say

Then I could say back to you that I don't give a damn that my lynchbait play made reading players harder to YOU. Because I found it much better and I always do, even when the specific lynchbait isn't me in other situations.

Your reply just shows how much you think of mafia as a game you play as a team. You don't care about this at all. You are playing for yourself. And for someone who relies on the classic reads, what you are doing is obviously anti-town. As I said, you don't allow players to contribute and just let many good reads slip away. If you have never considered this disadvantage of this playstyle, then perhaps you should.

You're concerned about whether or not you look scummy, which is scummy

1) I'm concerned with the fact I can't contribute anything and not helping to the town
2) So basically you are telling me that as town I'm free to make myself look scummy? Tell me, who insulted my lynchbait play because it makes me suspicious and draws attention away from scum? Pretty much everyone.

Please go back through each of the seven points you made about me and explain why a townie wouldn't do those things and why scum would

I believe it's all explained in

bold

. I can restate that if you want.

Leader

- True, you can do that as town and as scum. Problem is, YOU know this can easily mislead the town and that many noobs are easy followers. You said how you witnessed this happening before and the fact you are doing something similar right now can be seen as only this: anti-town and scummy.

One Ideology

- While this depends a lot on one's personality - it doesn't change the fact this approach is anti-town. Insulting players who bring up some innovative ideas is not a protown approach. If you don't like it - so be it. But no reason to start attacking, saying you'll put me on the black list and such. The only times I saw a player getting angry is when a townie was right in what he was saying and the angry scum couldn't shake him off despite how his reasons were, supposedly, baseless.

Ignoring your own previous deductions

- The only reason I see this as a more likely anti-town behavior is because town want to find scum. What you did there accusing me and Whilst as scumteam looked like an attempt to lynch those who are in the spotlight. Of course, this approach is always easier. However, it doesn't help in lynching scum.

Playing extremely protown and jumping on every little thing

- I could put aside what I cited from the wiki and how it's said there that this can be used as scum strategy - but I won't because that's exactly what I think. True, a noob townie could still play like this. I don't see you as one. Thus letting good reads slip away while not allowing others to contribute + posting a lot which can easily scare noobs, cause them to be inactive and easy lynch targets = anti-town play = more likely scum play than town play.

Doing what is wrong and make it appear protown

- As town I would have expected you to read that wiki article once I pointed out that there are well known flaws in the way you play. You didn't do that. It seems like you have no intention of improving how you play, even if you think that article won't help you much, and that's no what a townie should do. You also keep pushing these all these "wrong" things in order to appear protown no matter what. Maybe you are fooling others but not me. You are just wasting out time with that. Sounds more scummy than protown, don't you agree?

Publicly saying someone is town

- This I agree can be done by both town and scum. However, at the time there was nothing the town would gain from you saying this. Only scum would - town points once dicknose dies and flips town. Also, as a person who said "I'll reveal what I think when I'm at L-1" I'd expect you to keep such insights to yourself unless there is a REAL need to point them out. There wasn't such thing in this case.

[DarkClaymore]

Time zone: GMT +2

[cavjj]

IAI

The "vote first and give reasons later" attitude seems useless.

If you say so. But on page 4 with 6 newbies in the game, it can be very beneficial/telling.

I read that as” with 6 newbies in the game, I can get away with having to explain my votes and not get called out on it.”
---------------------------------
Post #215 (http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3307492) I said that you hadn’t given your reasons for me being top of your scumpile. When there is DC who at the time is acting like a complete tool, Abel who is going massively aggressively pro town with the Inspector Clouseau approach along with a few others who are just coasting through the day, the best argument you can come up with for me is that I joined 2 bandwagons and the hammer. Yet you made no comment whatsoever of my hammer discussion, were you just happy to go along with it, knowing so someone had got rid of a VT and helped your cause as scum or did you just find it beneath you?
--------------------------------
Post 477 http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... &start=475
So in an effort to incriminate me, he lists his argument against BBmolla. 20 pages after he’s been lynched? To tag it up at the end:
“It may surprise Honest Abel and others, but D1 outside of his initial comment, I found him very townie and did not like the wagon on him. I was absent for much of that, hence I never got the chance to move my RVS vote. As soon as I saw what happened, I called the BBmolla/cavjj scumteam (Post 85).

I was obviously wrong about half of that, but the interesting thing is the other half was the hammer vote. Was scum cavjj trying to disprove some suspicion by proving what he knew was a town BBmolla? Definitely a possibility.”

Ooo!! I called the scum team, it was wrong but look at me, I called it!!!!

-------------------------------

IAI has gone all the game being seriously defensive and somehow getting away with it. He goes long periods of time without posting, defends himself and levels his post out with a very small acknowledgement of suspicion. There are very few cognitive projective arguments from IAI. Usually only small comments finished with “noted.” . He’s lurking, not saying enough and he’s scum.
Let’s take a look at IAI’s analytic nature. When he does actually post, they are full of analysis, while at the same time giving very little away. Most of his analysis only goes along with what we already actually know. That we should suspect player x or player y. Then when something comes up that actually needs analysing, he comes up with this gem:

N1, have no idea scumhunter was the choice. He came off as very null D1, so not sure what scum was thinking.

How can you be so dismissive?

------------------------------

VOTE: I Am Innocent

I am off for lunch, I will post my whilst stuff later today

[whilst]

My initial thinking was that I expected more from IAI than from whilst in the way of defense.

Could you explain this in more detail?

Yes, but I'm pretty sure of both my reads.

Two town flips means game over. One town flip puts us in trouble.

So instead of admitting your mistake, you counter with "I'm pretty sure of both my reads"?

The part that I'm sure I said, somewhere, is that I would like a whilst flip and then will go from there. I am certainly not locked into a whilst/IAI team --

especially

if one of you flips town (which, at this point, I doubt).

All right, let's assume in a 'random' hypothetical situation, where I am killed today or tonight -- either lynched for some reason or night killed by the mafia -- and i 'flip' town. Do you assume you wouldn't be considered scum by the other players? Also, who do you chase next?

I don't see this outcome as an impossibility--all you'd need to do is persuade Abel and (perhaps) dicknose of my scumminess.

Yes, but I'm pretty sure of both my reads.

Two town flips means game over. One town flip puts us in trouble.

So instead of admitting your mistake, you counter with "I'm pretty sure of both my reads"?

Yep, there's something wrong about that. Doesn't sound like he meant flip via nightkill, either. I think it's highly unlikely whilst or IAI would be nightkilled, obviously. It's not a scumslip, though, is it?

I address this above; if you need more clarification, I'll be happy to discuss further.

Go ahead, clarify.

[whilst]

Spoiler: Mod Edit

ABEL- Part 1

Stop quoting the wiki

Says the person who first brought a wiki article. I hoped at least something from the wiki will get through you, but sadly it seems like it doesn't. So I'll just conclude that nothing will.

First of all, you're not proving anything about yourself by quoting something you didn't write.

What...? Why am I supposed to prove something about myself when I'm trying to point out something about YOU?

Second, any goddamn idiot could have written that, it's a wiki. And if the person who wrote it isn't an idiot, I reserve the right to disagree anyway

Okay, then the second link here:

Game Theory (See also: Theory in the wiki).

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED READING!

This is taken from the "Newbie Game Queue" thread. As you can see, people HIGHLY RECOMMEND to read this. And you are't going to say the ones who created the thread are also idiots, right?

This clears part one. As for part two - sure, you have the right to disagree. If you are going to ignore the advice of the more experienced folks and just play however you want - I wish you good luck. I believe you'll need it.

You should have condensed your argument into "Abel says not to use outside help, but before he said we should, here are some highlights". To be fair, I haven't read a majority of the "newbie guide" or any other 'self-help' articles. The only time I've consulted the wiki was for acronyms and for special roles in other games.

Third, anything put on a wiki about strategy in this game is immediately null and void because it becomes public knowledge and everybody knows the tricks

This wasn't "strategy" but "advice". There's a big difference between the two as the latter should always be helpful. And just a note: none of what I cited were "tricks" to catch scum, but rather things you shouldn't do as town because it's either pointless or harms the town.

Also, here you said, and I quote, "There are

clear

and

definite

ways to help the town in this game". Isn't this also part of the "public strategy" that automatically becomes null? You are confusing me. I don't understand whatever you do or don't believe in what you said there and whatever you believe in well defined known strategies or not.

Fourth, I haven't made any decisions in this game based solely on potential scumbuddies

I just said you are pushing it a lot. Like when I asked why suddenly me and Whilst are the scumteam in your eyes, you said you see "more connection". If this isn't an obvious attempt to conclude something from connections between players then I don't know what it is.

don't outguess me that I'd write you off as an idiot and ignore your opinion, you don't know that.

I just added that so you won't ask me why I didn't put any effort into explaining what is written there.
Though, based on this:

it's going to lead to is just going to provide you another outlet to propagate your

nonsense

.

I believe my "outguess" was correct anyway.

Also, DC, why are you so faithful to your beloved wiki when you're all about using the "weird" strategy?

This thread, along with others there, aren't recommended for teh lulz. I read it and I think it's legit.
True, I came up with a strategy that goes against some of the things written there. But it's a "strategy". I wasn't just playing the "normal way", if that's how you'd like to see it, and relying on normal reads. I made something different, which I initially didn't really want to try in this specific game, and tried to see whatever it's better than the "normal" playstyle which, tbh, I find boring at times because everyone do it.

When I'm playing normally then I following what's written there and in other articles as much as I can or see fit. It's not like I have OVER 9000 unusual strategies.[/area]

ABEL- Part 2

I'm not letting someone think for themselves? Show me where I've turned down a good case or good pressure on someone. Show me any evidence at all that I'm making the town follow one person. You can't say such things without examples, especially when they're so obviously lies

You strongly attacked not only my lynchbait strategy, but also IAI's scumhunting. Only because you don't like it doesn't mean you have to attack and insult. You just make yourself appear like some kind of "ALL CAPS RAGE" guy that no one want to mess around with. This automatically blocks many opinions that could have brought forth by players.

Some people will just avoid messing with you and will refrain from stating their opinions.

I'm not unaccepting of new ideas and strategies. I'll listen to anything, evaluate it, and tell you whether it's shit or not, honestly

You have no right to call my strategy "shit" when you yourself doing many things against what town should do. Yes, I'm talking about that article from wiki. If my lynchbait doesn't fit the "defined way to help town" then neither many of your own actions.

I did ask you to cite your sources first and foremost, if I recall correctly. After a while without citing, I started calling your stories nonsense.

True, you asked: #289
I did give you the links, as pointless as I thought it is: #298
Then you attack me and call what I say "nonsense" because I didn't cite: 343

There was no need to attack. You could just ask me to cite again like you did the first time. You saw that I gave you the links back then, but you still chose to attack me the second time. And I still gave you the more specific links anyway: #345

And this is all with putting aside I was referring to the same game the first and second time anyway. But you couldn't have possibly known that.

Appearing confident is an important part of adding pressure. A statement so self-assured and intuitive like "lol, looks like we have our scumteam" is going to dismantle a scumteam more than "Well, here are all the reasons my previous case doesn't work anymore. I admit its shortcomings could apply to any case I make in the future. That said, my next suspicion is that these two gentlemen are a scumteam."

I think neither put any pressure more than votes or pointing out new things. Just going around and singing how you found the scumteam puts pressure on no one. As townie I know you are wrong and if I were scum I'd know you are just guessing. You are just wasting our time by making us read pointless material.

Otherwise, what am I supposed to do? Keep talking to IAI all day and let DC just sit there silent at his computer? Nah.

What I didn't like is how you never gave a solid reason as to why me and whilst as scumteam is the winner in your eyes even though you were pretty sure it's IAI a short while ago. You just said there's more "connection" which is weak reasoning as you should know that most likely you won't find any obvious connection between the scum before you lynch one of them.

but I'm not concerned about whether or not I make you look scummy by not leaving anything for you to say

Then I could say back to you that I don't give a damn that my lynchbait play made reading players harder to YOU. Because I found it much better and I always do, even when the specific lynchbait isn't me in other situations.

Your reply just shows how much you think of mafia as a game you play as a team. You don't care about this at all. You are playing for yourself. And for someone who relies on the classic reads, what you are doing is obviously anti-town. As I said, you don't allow players to contribute and just let many good reads slip away. If you have never considered this disadvantage of this playstyle, then perhaps you should.

You're concerned about whether or not you look scummy, which is scummy

1) I'm concerned with the fact I can't contribute anything and not helping to the town
2) So basically you are telling me that as town I'm free to make myself look scummy? Tell me, who insulted my lynchbait play because it makes me suspicious and draws attention away from scum? Pretty much everyone.

Please go back through each of the seven points you made about me and explain why a townie wouldn't do those things and why scum would

I believe it's all explained in

bold

. I can restate that if you want.

Leader

- True, you can do that as town and as scum. Problem is, YOU know this can easily mislead the town and that many noobs are easy followers. You said how you witnessed this happening before and the fact you are doing something similar right now can be seen as only this: anti-town and scummy.

One Ideology

- While this depends a lot on one's personality - it doesn't change the fact this approach is anti-town. Insulting players who bring up some innovative ideas is not a protown approach. If you don't like it - so be it. But no reason to start attacking, saying you'll put me on the black list and such. The only times I saw a player getting angry is when a townie was right in what he was saying and the angry scum couldn't shake him off despite how his reasons were, supposedly, baseless.

Ignoring your own previous deductions

- The only reason I see this as a more likely anti-town behavior is because town want to find scum. What you did there accusing me and Whilst as scumteam looked like an attempt to lynch those who are in the spotlight. Of course, this approach is always easier. However, it doesn't help in lynching scum.

Playing extremely protown and jumping on every little thing

- I could put aside what I cited from the wiki and how it's said there that this can be used as scum strategy - but I won't because that's exactly what I think. True, a noob townie could still play like this. I don't see you as one. Thus letting good reads slip away while not allowing others to contribute + posting a lot which can easily scare noobs, cause them to be inactive and easy lynch targets = anti-town play = more likely scum play than town play.

Doing what is wrong and make it appear protown

- As town I would have expected you to read that wiki article once I pointed out that there are well known flaws in the way you play. You didn't do that. It seems like you have no intention of improving how you play, even if you think that article won't help you much, and that's no what a townie should do. You also keep pushing these all these "wrong" things in order to appear protown no matter what. Maybe you are fooling others but not me. You are just wasting out time with that. Sounds more scummy than protown, don't you agree?

Publicly saying someone is town

- This I agree can be done by both town and scum. However, at the time there was nothing the town would gain from you saying this. Only scum would - town points once dicknose dies and flips town. Also, as a person who said "I'll reveal what I think when I'm at L-1" I'd expect you to keep such insights to yourself unless there is a REAL need to point them out. There wasn't such thing in this case.

[/quote]

So, I'm honestly not really sure what I was being asked to edit, but since I'm not sure what he did or did not write, and I can't just edit out something someone wrote "for funsies" (not saying that's what you're doing, I'm just confused), I just put the whole thing in spoiler tags because it looks like all it is, is some sort of mistake so this is to get rid of the huge wall without compromising the content. Hope this helps!
~singer

[whilst]

Ugh, I totally messed that up. Why did I push "shift+enter"? ugh. Hold on, I'm going to ask the mod to delete the above post.

[whilst]

ABEL- Part 1

Stop quoting the wiki

Says the person who first brought a wiki article. I hoped at least something from the wiki will get through you, but sadly it seems like it doesn't. So I'll just conclude that nothing will.

First of all, you're not proving anything about yourself by quoting something you didn't write.

What...? Why am I supposed to prove something about myself when I'm trying to point out something about YOU?

Second, any goddamn idiot could have written that, it's a wiki. And if the person who wrote it isn't an idiot, I reserve the right to disagree anyway

Okay, then the second link here:

Game Theory (See also: Theory in the wiki).

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED READING!

This is taken from the "Newbie Game Queue" thread. As you can see, people HIGHLY RECOMMEND to read this. And you are't going to say the ones who created the thread are also idiots, right?

You should have condensed your argument into "Abel says not to use outside help, but before he said we should, here are some highlights". To be fair, I haven't read a majority of the "newbie guide" or any other 'self-help' articles. The only time I've consulted the wiki was for acronyms and for special roles in other games. That being said, this is a strong point that I wish to highlight:

Fourth, I haven't made any decisions in this game based solely on potential scumbuddies

I just said you are pushing it a lot. Like when I asked why suddenly me and Whilst are the scumteam in your eyes, you said you see "more connection". If this isn't an obvious attempt to conclude something from connections between players then I don't know what it is.

Really, don't associate me with DarkClaymore.[/area]

This is what I wanted to say in #580, but I ended up hitting enter or tab or some combination of buttons too early, so it posted prematurely. If the mod deletes that post, this is what it was.

[whilst]

IAI

The "vote first and give reasons later" attitude seems useless.

If you say so. But on page 4 with 6 newbies in the game, it can be very beneficial/telling.

I read that as” with 6 newbies in the game, I can get away with having to explain my votes and not get called out on it.”
---------------------------------
Post #215 (http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3307492) I said that you hadn’t given your reasons for me being top of your scumpile. When there is DC who at the time is acting like a complete tool, Abel who is going massively aggressively pro town with the Inspector Clouseau approach along with a few others who are just coasting through the day, the best argument you can come up with for me is that I joined 2 bandwagons and the hammer. Yet you made no comment whatsoever of my hammer discussion, were you just happy to go along with it, knowing so someone had got rid of a VT and helped your cause as scum or did you just find it beneath you?

He did quote a post about the hammer, from 117.

--------------------------------
Post 477 http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... &start=475
So in an effort to incriminate me, he lists his argument against BBmolla. 20 pages after he’s been lynched? To tag it up at the end:
“It may surprise Honest Abel and others, but D1 outside of his initial comment, I found him very townie and did not like the wagon on him. I was absent for much of that, hence I never got the chance to move my RVS vote. As soon as I saw what happened, I called the BBmolla/cavjj scumteam (Post 85).

Because you're summarizing your points against IAI, I'll let you slide on the re-print of a point that Abel made (the BBmolla argument).

IAI has gone all the game being seriously defensive and somehow getting away with it. He goes long periods of time without posting, defends himself and levels his post out with a very small acknowledgement of suspicion. There are very few cognitive projective arguments from IAI. Usually only small comments finished with “noted.” . He’s lurking, not saying enough and he’s scum.

You have not been reading the thread. He has stated why he cannot always come back to the game in his response to Abel. In terms of "long periods of time without posting" -- you are also guilty of the same act. Again, you had your own personal outside reason. You expect people to honor your reason (and naturally, we will) then you should really be open to honoring IAI's reasons.

------------------------------

VOTE: I Am Innocent

I am off for lunch, I will post my whilst stuff later today

I've devalued your top two points on IAI. Regardless, I really don't care that you've voted for him, it's just one vote. My only fear is that you will take the same approach to me and throw me to L-1. Abel is ready to see me killed, so if this is the case, I only have one request:

Before anyone is lynched by a majority vote, all voters must post "why" they are following through with their lynch target. If they want, they can "quote" previous posts. Please link to those posts, however.

-- Fair enough? I'd hope so. If not, please express why.

Actually (heh, sorry),

cavjj

, just one more thing: could we get your thoughts on DarkClaymore at this point in the game?

[cavjj]

I will not be voting for you D2 whilst. I am more concerned with IAI.

Lol yes you can have my DC thoughts after I have posted my thoughts on yourself.

One quick point without regard to the amount of activity in the thread. As you say,

You expect people to honor your reason (and naturally, we will) then you should really be open to honoring IAI's reasons.

I wasn't really referring to him saying he would have a busy few days although I admit I missed that when he said it. Fair enough, my request was indeed honoured (thanks guys) and as you says IAI's request should be honoured as well.

I agree and I would like to offer my apologies to IAI for making a point of it when it wasn't really fair.

[DarkClaymore]

Before anyone is lynched by a majority vote, all voters must post "why" they are following through with their lynch target. If they want, they can "quote" previous posts. Please link to those posts, however.

-- Fair enough? I'd hope so. If not, please express why.

My main reason is the lynchbait play analysis. However, tbh, the longer this day goes on - the more doubts I have about it...

Putting aside the reason no one here likes. There is the stuff you do which I already mentioned: pleasing, outguessing, suspecting without giving solid reasons and not putting pressure on the ones you suspect. True, all can be something caused by your personality or simply some townie mistakes. HOWEVER. Three things:

1) You protect yourself as if nothing wrong with any of these points - which is far from being true.
2) You insist on doing it despite how people say it looks scummy.
3) I don't think there is any reason for the town, or at least for anyone who suspects you, to keep living in paranoia that you might be scum this time around despite how, apparently, you usually play like this.

[whilst]

Before anyone is lynched by a majority vote, all voters must post "why" they are following through with their lynch target. If they want, they can "quote" previous posts. Please link to those posts, however.

-- Fair enough? I'd hope so. If not, please express why.

My main reason is the lynchbait play analysis. However, tbh, the longer this day goes on - the more doubts I have about it...

Putting aside the reason no one here likes. There is the stuff you do which I already mentioned: pleasing, outguessing, suspecting without giving solid reasons and not putting pressure on the ones you suspect. True, all can be something caused by your personality or simply some townie mistakes. HOWEVER. Three things:

1) You protect yourself as if nothing wrong with any of these points - which is far from being true.
2) You insist on doing it despite how people say it looks scummy.
3) I don't think there is any reason for the town, or at least for anyone who suspects you, to keep living in paranoia that you might be scum this time around despite how, apparently, you usually play like this.

Ah, I should've clarified when to post your reasons against the target. I meant if whoever was at L-3, and someone said they would go through and seal the lynch on that person, then everyone should cite their reasons. Those reasons will be the subject of debate during D3/4/5 etc.

[DarkClaymore]

Before anyone is lynched by a majority vote, all voters must post "why" they are following through with their lynch target. If they want, they can "quote" previous posts. Please link to those posts, however.

-- Fair enough? I'd hope so. If not, please express why.

My main reason is the lynchbait play analysis. However, tbh, the longer this day goes on - the more doubts I have about it...

Putting aside the reason no one here likes. There is the stuff you do which I already mentioned: pleasing, outguessing, suspecting without giving solid reasons and not putting pressure on the ones you suspect. True, all can be something caused by your personality or simply some townie mistakes. HOWEVER. Three things:

1) You protect yourself as if nothing wrong with any of these points - which is far from being true.
2) You insist on doing it despite how people say it looks scummy.
3) I don't think there is any reason for the town, or at least for anyone who suspects you, to keep living in paranoia that you might be scum this time around despite how, apparently, you usually play like this.

Ah, I should've clarified when to post your reasons against the target. I meant if whoever was at L-3, and someone said they would go through and seal the lynch on that person, then everyone should cite their reasons. Those reasons will be the subject of debate during D3/4/5 etc.

Oh, well. Anyway, I stated my reasons in case you'll be lynched.
As for IAI I'm not going to join unless I think I got something.
Even though Cav pointed out something that I liked. He said IAI posts "analysis that don't help anyone". While not exactly, this is pretty close to what I meant by scum doing "long in-depth posts" at the very beginning and might be worth looking into. For me at least.

[DarkClaymore]

To be fair, I haven't read a majority of the "newbie guide" or any other 'self-help' articles.

I recommend reading that one particular article as I really found it helpful. It has very general pieces of advice that can be applied in many situations. True, what's written there won't help you find scum for the most part (or maybe yes if Abel is scum) but at least you'll possibly be making less mistakes in the future.

To be Honset, what I pointed against Abel are the main things I learned from that article.

[Honest Abel]

Because only scum wouldn't follow the newbie guide, right? Not convincing.

[Honest Abel]

NS, I know you posted some IAI/whilst, IAI/DC, and whilst/DC scenarios earlier. Why are you so set on IAI/whilst now? What ever became of your suspicion on DC? Can I get a summary on that?

[Honest Abel]

In other words, you're nowhere near the scummiest on my scum list, but I want to make sure you're not pulling the wool over our eyes by flirting with DC suspicion but conveniently ending up on IAI/whilst. If either one of them were to turn up town, I think you'd receive a good chunk of my suspicion and I might think an NS/DC team were more likely. That's as it stands. I want to get that out there in case I am killed during the Night.

[Honest Abel]

The other thought I had (I woke up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat thinking these things, lol) is that the "sloppy" mafia play, as IAI calls it, could be due to the fact that a newbscum was lacking his more experienced counterpart. E.g., Wickedestjr was missing during the night phase and DC was able to call all the shots. Something like that.

[Honest Abel]

NS, in addition to explaining what happened to your DC suspicion, also let me know how willing you are to lynch him instead of whilst or IAI.

[whilst]

The other thought I had (I woke up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat thinking these things, lol) is that the "sloppy" mafia play, as IAI calls it, could be due to the fact that a newbscum was lacking his more experienced counterpart. E.g., Wickedestjr was missing during the night phase and DC was able to call all the shots. Something like that.

Eh, I don't know. If you're mafia, you're going to want to participate during the night phase -- you get to kill someone.

[Honest Abel]

He could have missed it, I don't know.

[Nobody Special]

My initial thinking was that I expected more from IAI than from whilst in the way of defense.

Could you explain this in more detail?

Because of your previous activity and tendency to not so much actually explain yourself but seemingly tell people what they wanted to hear, I figured I'd get more benefit from whatever IAI had to say (if anything) than from what you might say.

Yes, but I'm pretty sure of both my reads.

Two town flips means game over. One town flip puts us in trouble.

So instead of admitting your mistake, you counter with "I'm pretty sure of both my reads"?

The part that I'm sure I said, somewhere, is that I would like a whilst flip and then will go from there. I am certainly not locked into a whilst/IAI team --

especially

if one of you flips town (which, at this point, I doubt).

All right, let's assume in a 'random' hypothetical situation, where I am killed today or tonight -- either lynched for some reason or night killed by the mafia -- and i 'flip' town. Do you assume you wouldn't be considered scum by the other players? Also, who do you chase next?

I don't see this outcome as an impossibility--all you'd need to do is persuade Abel and (perhaps) dicknose of my scumminess.

I don't assume how I'll be viewed after any hypothetical situation -- I play as I play with the info available to me at the moment; how I'm viewed is irrelevant. I'm not the type to worry about whether I stay alive over how I help the town. Also, I don't line up lynches. After a flip, it's like everything resets, and everyone goes back to zero and gets scrutinized all over gain in light of the flip. Interactions, votes, etc. all get analyzed fresh in light of the new information. Having said that, though, if either whilst or IAI flip scum, I'm pretty sure (as of now) that the other is more likely to be scum than anyone else in the game. But I will still re-analyze after a flip, just to be sure.

Yes, but I'm pretty sure of both my reads.

Two town flips means game over. One town flip puts us in trouble.

So instead of admitting your mistake, you counter with "I'm pretty sure of both my reads"?

Yep, there's something wrong about that. Doesn't sound like he meant flip via nightkill, either. I think it's highly unlikely whilst or IAI would be nightkilled, obviously. It's not a scumslip, though, is it?

I address this above; if you need more clarification, I'll be happy to discuss further.

Go ahead, clarify.

The part that I'm clarifying, for reference:

The part that I'm sure I said, somewhere, is that I would like a whilst flip and then will go from there. I am certainly not locked into a whilst/IAI team -- especially if one of you flips town (which, at this point, I doubt). That's just where I am at this moment. The "I'm pretty sure of both of my reads" part only speaks to my willingness to lynch either of you today (almost equally). [Hold up, this may change.]

I said that I'd prefer a whilst lynch first, and then go from there, here.
I am NOT saying that we lynch one, then the other automagically. No -- my preference is to lynch one of my top two reads, analyze the flip, go from there. My top two reads -- IAI and whilst -- are so close in scumminess, to me, that I would be happy with either lynch. I don't prefer whilst over IAI or IAI over whilst. I'll take either.

I really don't know how to make it any more clear than that.

[Nobody Special]

NS, I know you posted some IAI/whilst, IAI/DC, and whilst/DC scenarios earlier. Why are you so set on IAI/whilst now? What ever became of your suspicion on DC? Can I get a summary on that?

From here:

Just some thinking-out-loud here:

If scum=IAI/whilst, then DC is really and truly cluelessly being lynchbait. However, if scum=IAI/DC, then whilst is being (unnecessarily, IMO) overprotective of the game and also not very aggressive.

Now, taking IAI out and looking at scum=DC/whilst, then they could be trying to play off of each other and hoping we look elsewhere.

BUT. Why take IAI out?

The remainder of the post explores IAIs interactions with whilst.

Summary: DC may be scummy, but IAI+whilst are far worse in tandem. If either whilst or IAI flip town, then DC will be right back under the microscope (and I'll be kicking myself for allowing him to let me be bamboozled).

[Nobody Special]

NS, in addition to explaining what happened to your DC suspicion, also let me know how willing you are to lynch him instead of whilst or IAI.

Oops, should've added this to the above, but I open different posts for reply in different tabs, then answer them. Anyway:

Unless whilst suddenly becomes a paragon of towniness, I'd much prefer to lynch him over anyone else.

As I've said, IAI is becoming less so; it might behoove me to start considering whilst/DC.

But I want to lynch whilst. Reeks of scummitude. So, to be painfully clear, no, you'll have to

really

convince me to lynch DC over whilst

at this moment.

[Honest Abel]

NS, I don't think whilst or IAI are your buddies. I can't imagine scum throwing his buddy under a bus like that. But I can imagine scum saying his partner is scummy and then focusing on two other people with a high degree of certainty. That's my anxiety about an NS/DC team. I also don't think I would have been so harsh on whilst if you didn't show up, so I feel the potential of having been distracted away from DC.

I think I would personally get more out of a DC flip than a whilst or IAI flip. That's mainly because I'd be able to make better judgments not only about IAI and whilst, but also about you. And, actually, I'd be able to make better judgments about dicknose, and to a small degree, cavjj, based on a DC flip. I guess DC's influence has been very far reaching. I see the biggest benefit coming from a DC lynch.