TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win

[vezokpiraka]

unvote
vote rodion

Ok you are right.

[Junpei]

I see your logic but.... silver and andrew.... Do we really have three scum here? Almost seems too good to be true.

[Banshee]

I had no opinion of Pine because, well, there really was nothing to work with at all. Silver's case on Pine and his relentless pushing of a policy lynch without ever giving his reasons (being useless is not a reason, or we'd never be done policy lynching imo) are actually part of the reason I think Silver is likely scum. But I was most suspicious of Rodion all day yesterday and stated my case (which is very similar to Castle Bravo's) in depth at that time. ThAdmiral was insistent that Rodion was town, insistent enough to shake my town read on ThAd at one point and lead me to question ThAd about it. I don't think I got an answer and I STILL don't think Rodion is town.

Still I was suspicious of Castle Bravo when he came in and agreed with me so completely. I've been burned by this before and I tend to be wary when I've made a case and someone comes in and sees it just the way I did. The last couple of posts by Castle Bravo, however, indicate that he read the game independently and that this is his own case, not mine parroted, so I'm taking him off my suspicions list for now. I'm also going to add that Rodion alternates between the I'm-a-newbie-what's-this-mean and the I-am-NOT-emphasizing-my-newbness-how-dare-you!?! settings pretty much at will. As I pointed out before, he warned people against picking on him because it might look scummy and, when questioned about whether that was his general behaviour fell back on the I-don't-have-a-general-behaviour-I'm-a-newb defense once more.

So Castle Bravo is off my scum radar for now.

@rainbowdash:

As I understand it, I'm one of your top three scum suspicions but I don't appear on your "needs to die" list. Why not?

[jasonT1981]

Leonshade has requested replacement, one will be advertised for. Cherve has failed to even pick up two PMs and ignored one other despite being active in 20 other threads, even after the messages were sent and is going to be replaced and Blacklisted from all future games I run.

[silverbullet999]

-Dave
Give me the game name... you easily could have done that by now.

Also stop being a man's private parts and either sleep or get laid or something so you get off on the right side of bed.

---

@mod: V/LA til 13th give or take... visiting fam

[Leonshade]

I've sent the mod a request to replace me. I've had a hard time keeping up with this game, and were I not to replace out, I would probably just detract from the game with excessive lurking and unproductive prod-dodge posts. I'm sorry for sucking so much and I hope everyone has a good game.

[Rainbowdash]

@rainbowdash:

As I understand it, I'm one of your top three scum suspicions but I don't appear on your "needs to die" list. Why not?

Can't justify it yet, gut continues to really bug me though. What is your opinion of non-lurking points I raised on oversoul though, more than one person has responded with a "oh yeah he is lurking" and ignored some other points on him.

Wagon there would be a really good way to welcome him back from V/LA

[Rodion]

Rodion is reduced to sarcasm and smilies.

Just lynch him. Look at #1701, not the least little piece of reasoning in it, just a whole bunch of complex mumbo jumbo that means nothing. He's an obvious scumbags.

Town needs to continue to vote for Rodion. ThAd's tells are useless.

You're making yourself look pretty bad, Castle Bravo.

You've answered a "Shotty or Silver?" question with a "yes" (valid answers: "Shotty", "Silver", "both") and you are reducing everything I've done so far to "sarcasm and smilies".

I'll check your other games later to see if you usually behave like a VI. If you don't, scum read.

Would yes bear a close resemblance to "Shotty," "Silver," or "Both," Rodion? Maybe, if you think very, very, very hard you could answer this question.

You (later) said that not being able to understand your answer is proof that your scum read on me is correct. Well, I

still

do not understand your answer, so if enough people agree with your premise it will be pretty easy to get me lynched.

1 - Would you be kind enough to explain your "yes" answer?

On to the rest of your case (now without the quotation marks as you decided to play):

2 - I knew EST was an acronym for the NY/Boston (and many other places) timezone. I just never saw someone indicating their timezone in a mafia game (and I've provided a list of all games I've played on the other site - up to that point - if you want to fact check that timezones are not mentioned - we do see their country flags, but most players are from the USA and they do not necessarily indicate whether they are Eastern, Central, Rocky, Western, Alaska or Hawaii) and then thought "perhaps EST here has a different meaning"? Didn't see the harm in asking. Don't see the point in your raising that up either.

3 - Yes, 1700ish posts after the game started I understood the meaning of VI. Is that so scummy to you?

I also PMed Jason early in the beginning of the game asking about the meaning of VI. I do not know whether he can confirm that or not, but I'm bolding it just in case.

4 - I've already answered Banshee on the newbie thing. The tl;dr is "I don't know the

mores

/customs of this site, but I do know how to play the game".

5 -

He tried so very non-hard to defend Zinger for the town cred, sure to remind people that it of course was mathematically possible that Zinger could be town despite claiming to be non-town, and that we cannot ever be sure for man is not wise in the mysteries of the universe badda badda.

Magic 8 ball say "scum be white knighting."

I love your thought process here. You find scummy that player A called player B out on his opinion that it was mathematically impossible ("zero sense") for Zinger to be town, but you don't find even a tiny bit scummy that player B said it was impossible (and used this "impossibility" to heavily promote Zinger's lynch) when it in fact wasn't?
Lying = ok?
Correcting a lie = scummy?

I'm also going to add that Rodion alternates between the I'm-a-newbie-what's-this-mean and the I-am-NOT-emphasizing-my-newbness-how-dare-you!?! settings pretty much at will. As I pointed out before, he warned people against picking on him because it might look scummy and, when questioned about whether that was his general behaviour fell back on the I-don't-have-a-general-behaviour-I'm-a-newb defense once more.

Hi!

I've explained this "alternation" already when I dealt with you. The "4" in this post's answer to Castle Bravo might refresh your memory.

I've given you all a comprehensive list of my mafia experience on the other site. My

subjective

opinion is that I don't have enough games as town under my belt so consider a "general behaviour". The question I now ask you is: with

objective

proof within your reach (all those game links that can be read without even needing to make an account on the other site), why don't you make your own research and inform everyone else on whether I have a "general behaviour as town" or not? I bet it would be a lot more pro-town than spinning my subjective answer into a "he's playing the newbie card AGAIN lolz" like you did.

[Junpei]

I'm sorry rodion but you still haven't told me what you learned from the Banshee conversation. Although this conversation with Castle Bravo seems like a pointless road to go down the thread is slow recently anyways and I have not much to add so I won't stop you from talking.

I will say that when Castle Bravo responded with "yes" and then called you out on not knowing what that meant as if it were a scumtell, it felt very much like scum leading you on.

[Pinky and the Brain]

@chk - Thoughts on Peregrine, oversoul and Banshee?

None of those three would be my choice lynch for the day.

Lets go beyond "not my top lynch choice" here.

I see no reason to. I am not going substantiate a lynch for people I don't see as threats for the day. What was the ultimate goal of that question?

I

CANNOT

be the only person who read this, and went

"LOLWUTUTALKINGABOUTFOOL?"

You don't gauge people based on how 'threatening' they are (which is completely illogical from a town mindset anyway), but on their likelihood to be scum.

What counts as a 'threat'? How are some people more 'threatening' than others?

People are either scum or town (or possibly 'non-threatening third party' as alluded to w/r/t the Zinger situation, whatever).

Scum are a threat.

Town / 'non-threatening third party' are not a threat.

There are no degrees of 'threat' - degrees on how likely people are to be a threat, perhaps, but no degrees on how much of a threat players (presumably scum) are.

Players do not become threats overnight (in a non-bastard game), so how can players be 'not a threat for today'?

A player who is a threat will be a threat regardless of which day it is (semantically speaking, it's arguable that for example an odd-night SK may not be considered a threat on an even-night, but as an anti-town prescence I would still consider that player a threat).

Castle Bravo

: Have you checked out izakthegoomba this game yet?

~ Hoppster

[Rodion]

I'm sorry rodion but you still haven't told me what you learned from the Banshee conversation. Although this conversation with Castle Bravo seems like a pointless road to go down the thread is slow recently anyways and I have not much to add so I won't stop you from talking.

I will say that when Castle Bravo responded with "yes" and then called you out on not knowing what that meant as if it were a scumtell, it felt very much like scum leading you on.

What I learned from my interaction with Banshee.

1 - She will not fight clearly lost battles.

Proof: she told me I parroted PLJ and I gave proof that my post happened before PLJ's. Banshee did not reply to that.

2 - She will not admit defeat either.

Proof: when I asked why she didn't reply to the parroting accusation, she said it was due to lack of time, not due to being wrong.

3 - She will accuse and refuse to explain. This means either that:

a) she is sure she can get a majority to lynch me without explaining because the majority of the players here can see how obvious of a scumtell that is
b) she will not fight clearly lost battles, nor admit defeat (as can be seen in #1 and #2)

Proof:

This reads as if you're requesting that I explain the scumtell I detected in your posts. I'm not going to tell you that. Ask me after the game.

4 - She's smart enough to get her own "touchés". She actually made me slightly evolve as a player here.

Proof:

Why would you warn people not to do things that might be perceived as scummy? What if they ARE scum? Why would you be so certain that they are not?

5 - She will exploit those "argument victories" while trying to sweep her "argument losses" under the carpet. Shows lack of coherence.

Proof: she took the time to continue questioning me on my MoI/Vifam "warning" after I conceded that I made a suboptimal move, the same time she didn't have to concede defeat on the parroting accusation.

6 - She got me to understand a little about (non-scummy) reasons on why a hydra conceals their identity. I'm not sure how serious/often this internet harassing thing is, but I'll not take my chances and just change my position towards more leniency when dealing with concealed hydras/alts (yes, it was a huge AtE on her part, but I'll buy it).

A viable reason for someone to hide their identity is if they are being stalked or otherwise harassed online. And that, as I said previously, wouldn't be any of your business, would it?

[Pappums Leather Jacket]

This game... I hate having to wade through page after page of back and forth that is mostly pointless and has no scumhunting whatsoever. People, please try to stay task-oriented and cut out the bullshit if you would.

Rodion is reduced to sarcasm and smilies.

Just lynch him. Look at #1701, not the least little piece of reasoning in it, just a whole bunch of complex mumbo jumbo that means nothing. He's an obvious scumbags.

Town needs to continue to vote for Rodion. ThAd's tells are useless.

You're making yourself look pretty bad, Castle Bravo.

You've answered a "Shotty or Silver?" question with a "yes" (valid answers: "Shotty", "Silver", "both") and you are reducing everything I've done so far to "sarcasm and smilies".

I'll check your other games later to see if you usually behave like a VI. If you don't, scum read.

Would yes bear a close resemblance to "Shotty," "Silver," or "Both," Rodion? Maybe, if you think very, very, very hard you could answer this question.

It's amazing how you can waste paragraph after paragraph talking about what other people are saying, and yet cannot even waste six seconds

thinking

about what other people are saying.


This was Rodion's scumclaim. Town thinks about what other townies are saying.

Scum looks for reasons to discredit people attacking them.

Where is the wagon on Rodion? Why isn't he lynched yet?

Regarding what I bolded, you are the one looking for reasons to discredit Rodion with your "sarcasm and smilies" comment. Rodion is town, and your case against him is based mainly on WIFOM and unwarranted speculation.

[Banshee]

@Pappums:

What is it that you, ThAd and others are seeing in Rodion's play that's screaming town to you? Because I'm really not seeing it and I would be grateful to have it pointed out. To me he's failing to take any strong positions anywhere, he's been conciliatory and he's seesawed between pointing out directly and indirectly that he's a newb but he doesn't expect to be treated differently but don't forget he's a newb...

What's town in that?

@Rodion:
If you have played Mafia elsewhere (and I don't know where you've played, sorry, I don't know these sites) then was it your general behaviour THERE to counsel other players on how not to appear scummy when you did not know their alignment? Or are you arguing again that you're too new to have a general behaviour anywhere? I thought my question was relatively simple and straightforward (Yes, Banshee, I do advise others on how not to act scummy in general or, No, Banshee, this is something I just did in this game) but instead it was used as another opportunity to say, hey, look, I'm a newbie! Someone rush to my defense!

I'm just puzzled as to why it keeps working every single time.

[Junpei]

I'm sorry rodion but you still haven't told me what you learned from the Banshee conversation. Although this conversation with Castle Bravo seems like a pointless road to go down the thread is slow recently anyways and I have not much to add so I won't stop you from talking.

I will say that when Castle Bravo responded with "yes" and then called you out on not knowing what that meant as if it were a scumtell, it felt very much like scum leading you on.

What I learned from my interaction with Banshee.

1 - She will not fight clearly lost battles.

Proof: she told me I parroted PLJ and I gave proof that my post happened before PLJ's. Banshee did not reply to that.

but your proof for number 2...

2 - She will not admit defeat either.

Proof: when I asked why she didn't reply to the parroting accusation, she said it was due to lack of time, not due to being wrong.

So it wasn't that she wouldn't fight it is that she couldn't fight. It appears to me that you are going from point A or point B without looking for a possible point C inbetween.

3 - She will accuse and refuse to explain. This means either that:

a) she is sure she can get a majority to lynch me without explaining because the majority of the players here can see how obvious of a scumtell that is

wow, you learned a ton. Also it is heavily biased to say without explaining. Although I don't think she has explained as much as I'd like, I see why she thinks you're scummy.

b) she will not fight clearly lost battles, nor admit defeat (as can be seen in #1 and #2)

repeat of 1 and 2, shouldn't even be here

Proof:

This reads as if you're requesting that I explain the scumtell I detected in your posts. I'm not going to tell you that. Ask me after the game.

Proof of what? This is exactly what you were talking about in number 4!

4 - She's smart enough to get her own "touchés". She actually made me slightly evolve as a player here.

Yeah, I guess that's true, she's smart enough to know this fact, I assume that people are capable until they prove otherwise but maybe you don't. Interesting point I guess.

Proof:

Why would you warn people not to do things that might be perceived as scummy? What if they ARE scum? Why would you be so certain that they are not?

5 - She will exploit those "argument victories" while trying to sweep her "argument losses" under the carpet. Shows lack of coherence.

Biased as all hell. I will say yes she did take time to question you on MoI/Vifam. She wasn't here for that but I think that it is scummy that she unearthed something bad you did, but when you think about it now it isn't in perspective. She was trying to prove that you're mafia, and part of doing that was showing what you did earlier that was bad.

Proof: she took the time to continue questioning me on my MoI/Vifam "warning" after I conceded that I made a suboptimal move, the same time she didn't have to concede defeat on the parroting accusation.

6 - She got me to understand a little about (non-scummy) reasons on why a hydra conceals their identity. I'm not sure how serious/often this internet harassing thing is, but I'll not take my chances and just change my position towards more leniency when dealing with concealed hydras/alts (yes, it was a huge AtE on her part, but I'll buy it).

A viable reason for someone to hide their identity is if they are being stalked or otherwise harassed online. And that, as I said previously, wouldn't be any of your business, would it?

Basically I think you did the following

1) Mindlessly argued with Banshee because you're scum and you argue with town over anything. She was accusing you so you just decided to defend and never think "huh, maybe I shouldn't argue with someone over my scumminess forever and just stick to scumhuntin, I'll ignore her for now as since I've been scum hunting I've found some useful tid bits and tells". Note that this post implies you're scum, as I got shit for calling zinger 100% scum, I think you're scum now, I don't know it.

2) Didn't take notes on the conversation, as I said the conversation didn't have the meaning of understanding and reading Banshee for you.

3) Got asked by me to explain

4) Forgot about it (had no notes anyways, you panicked and just ignored it for a bit, then ended up not ever making anything up)

5) Finally we are at the now. You made up this post on the fly about things you noted from Banshee. We know this because you contradict yourself and repeat yourself more than you should. See citations for more details.

[izakthegoomba]

Ok I'm kind of in limited access and have a few pages to read but I'll do my best here.

I'm pretty sure andrew's scumminess has been discussed already, and there is very little to add to that discussion.

Thinking on it, I get some scummish vibes off of Rodion, but I'm not confident of this read.

silver is my second choice for today's lynch.

I will have to re-read sometime for more reads.

[Junpei]

Ok I'm kind of in limited access and have a few pages to read but I'll do my best here.

I'm pretty sure andrew's scumminess has been discussed already, and there is very little to add to that discussion.

Thinking on it, I get some scummish vibes off of Rodion, but I'm not confident of this read.

silver is my second choice for today's lynch.

I will have to re-read sometime for more reads.

Your support in a lynch means nothing if you don't post more actual content.

Allow me to recap:

I think andrew, rodion, silver are scummy (those are the top 3 suspects today. anything else to add? lets find out) and i'm on v/la kinda sorta. (beautiful).

[Banshee]

Okay, Rainbow convinced me to take the time to go through and read Oversoul. Not that it took very long, actually.

I don't see anything too bad in the first three posts, but the fourth post is an apology for not posting. I tend to see this as a scumtell; not the flaking, so much, but the apologising for it. So that's minus points almost immediately.

This is terrible and I don't know how I missed it before. It's exactly the same sort of garbage that first made me think Rodion was scum, actually, full of neutral reads and contradictory statements (Meransiel is null but the interaction between Meransiel and Junpei looks like Town vs Town, for one example). It's pretty much the hallmark of scum to want to keep all their options open by not giving firm reads on anyone. I understand why people wouldn't want to give their town reads but there's no good reason not to point out the scums. Additionally, he's voting for Silver without actually giving reasons other than "he seems scummy."

And... that's all, folks! Everything else from Oversoul is basically Ooops-I-didn't-read-this or Lemme-catch-up or I-may-need-replacing, nothing of substance. At least Rodion is willing to engage and argue and put his logic on the line for examination.

Yeah, I have to say Oversoul is likely scum. If he's replacing out, then I guess it's unlikely he'll answer, provide content or change my mind on this. I still prefer Andrew as a lynch because 1) if I'm wrong and he's town I don't feel that neighbouriser is a great loss and that role is already outed and 2) I think the post I referred to when I voted him is SO AWFUL that I'm sure he's scum because of it to about 90% certainty. More so than Rodion, more so than anyone else in the game. To put that in perspective, I'm only about 55% on Silver as scum (I can't get past that stupid martyr thing and it's just SO full of WIFOM for me that I can't commit to voting for him right now despite other scummy posts he's made).

[Banshee]

EBWOP: Okay, I don't know why I thought Oversoul was being replaced. He's just on vacation. Anyway, the rest of the post still stands, just ignore my stupidity please.

[Rainbowdash]

Like I said, I would be ok enough with an andrew lynch to vote him. Especially over silver who I still am pretty sure is town. What I at least want is ponies to start paying attention to those who I am more sure are scum though, like oversoul and Peregrine. Lot of ponies just keep shrugging off these two cases as they get overshadowed by incessant bickering between people like Rodin and Junipei that is more likely than not town on town.

[Banshee]

@Rainbow:

Since your last post indicates you think Rodion is most likely town, can you explain the difference between Oversoul's terribad PBPA that was horribly noncommittal and Rodion's terribad PBPA that was horribly noncommittal, and why you're treating them in opposite ways when they're strikingly similar?

[Rodion]

If you have played Mafia elsewhere (and I don't know where you've played, sorry, I don't know these sites) then was it your general behaviour THERE to counsel other players on how not to appear scummy when you did not know their alignment? Or are you arguing again that you're too new to have a general behaviour anywhere? I thought my question was relatively simple and straightforward (Yes, Banshee, I do advise others on how not to act scummy in general or, No, Banshee, this is something I just did in this game) but instead it was used as another opportunity to say, hey, look, I'm a newbie! Someone rush to my defense!

I'm just puzzled as to why it keeps working every single time.

I will repeat myself again. If you don't like my subjective opinion that I do not have played enough games as town in order to have a general behaviour, then I challenge you to check my town games yourself. I've only played 3 non-marathon games as town. All others are either mafia or 3rd-party (surprisingly, I drew many non-harmful 3rd-party roles).

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=213

Game 1 - http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 0&t=145162 - DKed D2
Game 2 - http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 0&t=147058 - DKed D1 but I catched all scum there (weird game without rules, I don't think reading it would aid you much)
Game 3 - http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 3&t=141268 - pretty much my only play as town in a normal game in which I didn't die too quickly

I now ask you: is it my general behaviour to counsel other players on how not to appear scummy when I do not know their alignment? Or do I even have enough games as town under my belt to have a general behaviour?

@Junpei - your arguments are so poor I barely have the will to respond to them.

1 - I argued with Banshee because she accused me and I wanted to prove her wrong. Playing to my win condition, you know?

2 - I did not take notes before, I do not play taking actual notes. I make them on demand. What's the problem?

3 - The post was made "on the fly". I indeed did not have a notepad file entitled "things I learned from my Banshee convo". I ask you again: is there a problem?

4 - I fail to see any contradictions on what I wrote, even with the "aid" of your bolded comments. The repetition you mentioned should be there because "3" has 2 main consequences: "a" or "b". If I had not mentioned B you would have mistook it as only one consequence.

5 - My head is still spinning on your "couldn't fight"/"wouldn't fight" comment. Can you state your point?

[Junpei]

Rodion you state that Banshee won't fight "clearly lost" battles. However you cited a post where Banshee essentially says that it wasn't that she won't fight that battle, but she physically couldn't respond timely at all. ergo, couldn't, not wouldn't

Responding quickly to hopefully get a quick answer to this point.

[Pinky and the Brain]

Rodion's urgent posting of Meta without request is townie. He's showing he has nothing to hide.

Oversoul is chronically lurking in this thread and claims to be on vacation, yet has posted like 230 times before his last post? Bullshit, he's lurking scum.

-diddin

[Rodion]

Rodion you state that Banshee won't fight "clearly lost" battles. However you cited a post where Banshee essentially says that it wasn't that she won't fight that battle, but she physically couldn't respond timely at all. ergo, couldn't, not wouldn't

Responding quickly to hopefully get a quick answer to this point.

Well, Banshee certainly has enough time to ask several people what they think about me, I'm not buying that she will refuse to answer points in a back and forth against one of her top scum reads simply because she lacks the time to do it (remember, it's not only about having correct scum reads, it's also about convincing others that you are correct). Especially when it's a black and white parroting accusation when I posted

before

the person I was accused of parroting, thus making the parroting logically impossible. She could have easily said "you got me there, I'll withdraw this part of my case against you (but the rest stands)". Did she? No. Therefore, she will not admit defeat, which was my conclusion #2.

I don't see the reason to make a couldn't/wouldn't distinction to defend her (or discredit me) like you did.

[Banshee]

All right, let me clarify, since it's obviously not clear now.

Yes, you were correct that your claim of Townie Newb precedes Pappum's impassioned defense of you as townie newb. But MY comment dealt with the repeated comments you made after that that referenced your newb status to the site, even after you commented that you were too proud to use the newbie defense. After you made that statement you've continued to use your newbie status to explain your behaviour, as witnessed by your most recent trip to that particular well on the "general behaviour" question. So your parroting in fact followed his statement, even though you made the newbie claim and warned others not to press the newbie a few posts before Pappums echoed you. This is also complicated by the fact that, as I said earlier, I've seen one part of the Pappums hydra make this exact argument in the past when the hydra member was town and the newbie defense was used on behalf of scum well before this game ever started. I'm willing to concede that my opinion was coloured by that past experience, but it was not created by it.

Your argument is that you didn't parrot Pappums, and you're right on that. But you went back to that defense and seemed to follow his arguments even after you said you wouldn't do so out of pride. I don't think you get to have it both ways on that, but I don't suppose I think it's scummy, especially since you're now completely relying on the "newbie defense."

I'm willing to accept that you're a newbie and that you're new not only to this site, but also to the entire game of Mafia. That excuses you on almost all the points I've made against you, but it does not excuse your horrible PBPA that refused to take any firm positions on anyone and left all your options open.

Care to take another stab at it now that you know exactly what I thought the worst scumtell you committed was?