Newbie 1138 - Game Over! Town Win!

[I Am Innocent]

Post 570 (dicknose)

"I just want to say, in regards to IAI's activity, that until recently he had fewer posts than singer, which is too few I think. That was my only problem."

I believe I had more posts than the IC/IC replacee combined. But no mention there...

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Post 571:

"IAI has a bad argument against Abel and some bad defenses in the subsequent discussion. He goes back and forth on several things, such as Bbmolla and his scumhunting methods. Also, so we're clear, are you saying one more mislynch before to mylo or one mislynch in total?"

Last thing first, yes a mislynch puts us a 4-2, and that would be enough for MyLo (and a successful NK would make it LyLo).

Please elaborate on the bad defenses. I want to know specifically what you have an issue with, esp since I went from only getting suspicion because of my post count from you in 570 to the scummiest player in your eyes per 572 with a vote in 573...

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Post 572 (dicknose)

"So whilst, cav, iai from scum to scummiest, but I'd also be okay with a darky vote."

Post 573 (dicknose)

"Unvote. Vote: Innocent."

*****************

While we're at it dicknose, why did you not answer my question in post 478?

[I Am Innocent]

Re Post 578 (cavjj)

That is the case you have on me? The reason that you now have 2 votes D2 and they are both on me? Scared to make too many enemies D2, so you go for the one that the IC and most talkative poster vote for prior to you jumping on 8/5.

Oh, and half the stuff you bring up in 578 I have already addressed, like "How can you be so dismissive" on my surprise on why scumhunter was the N1 choice. So either you are not reading my posts or just rehashing arguments by others.

This guy is obv scum.

vote cavjj

[I Am Innocent]

Also, what would you gain out of a cavjj flip?

One less scum alive?

[I Am Innocent]

@Mod, I think Nobody Special's last vote activity was an unvote of me on 8/5, but you have him listed with a vote on whilst. I do not see that anywhere and would like to ask you to verify if that is correct.

Thanks in advance!

Fixed, thanks!
~singer

[Honest Abel]

Yeah, NS just FoS'd whilst.

cavjj is looking bad. Though #625 and #626 do not clear IAI in the slightest. More deflections and reactive play.

[cavjj]

Post 570 (dicknose)

"I just want to say, in regards to IAI's activity, that until recently he had fewer posts than singer, which is too few I think. That was my only problem."

I believe I had more posts than the IC/IC replacee combined. But no mention there...

**************

Post 571:

"IAI has a bad argument against Abel and some bad defenses in the subsequent discussion. He goes back and forth on several things, such as Bbmolla and his scumhunting methods. Also, so we're clear, are you saying one more mislynch before to mylo or one mislynch in total?"

Last thing first, yes a mislynch puts us a 4-2, and that would be enough for MyLo (and a successful NK would make it LyLo).

Please elaborate on the bad defenses. I want to know specifically what you have an issue with, esp since I went from only getting suspicion because of my post count from you in 570 to the scummiest player in your eyes per 572 with a vote in 573...

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Post 572 (dicknose)

"So whilst, cav, iai from scum to scummiest, but I'd also be okay with a darky vote."

Post 573 (dicknose)

"Unvote. Vote: Innocent."

*****************

While we're at it dicknose, why did you not answer my question in post 478?

You've just proved half my argument with that post........

[cavjj]

EBWOP was meant to quote #626

[DarkClaymore]

Here's an example for you:

Why? Because I thought that perhaps some...

Nobody asked why.

That whole section about asking me if I'd prefer you saying "kill the IC" is not necessary. It's not going to change anything about how we perceive your long answer to my simple question. Just accept that some people make points about things and just try to make your own instead of trying to explain everything to death.

I still believe I can't omit it because then I someone might ask. If possible, I prefer to address all the possible questions in the same argument. However. If you find that distracting or unnecessary, which is reasonable if that part doesn't apply to you, then

I'll just bold the "main point" and leave the rest to whoever is interested

.

Is that okay? Or you believe it's better to not mention it and answer only if asked?

_____________________________________________________________________________

So after this whole day we are back to Cav?
Since I don't have two suspects to fit the scumteam (I suspect Abel and Whilst but believe there's a high chance only one scum if at all) then

I'd say that Cav is a somewhat reasonable choice. Problem is, we don't and we can't know whatever his hammer was townnewb or scumnewb mistake as it could apply to both. Other than that, I think he presented enough interesting arguments on D2, despite doing so only when people put a little pressure on him the way I see it.

_____________________________________________________________________________

Also, since no one mentioned.

Here and here IAI tries to defend himself based on how he played in previous games:

player with an 8-3 town record, and one that is undefeated in LyLo. Not a bad person to get out of the way D2 if your scum, huh?

In case your not sure, I have 3 perfect scum wins to my credit, the one loss I have I replaced in to a hopeless situation. So if you are going to accuse me of being scum, please keep it consistent with my play as scum which has been pretty good, not this sloppy crap I have been accused of this game...

I got a few things to say about these reasons:
1)

WEAK. Any player can make mistakes at some point. And moreover in a game which is more active than what you are used to

. You are forced to post, so your posts aren't as good as they could have been in a game in which you'd feel more comfortable. While I was pointing fingers at Abel because forcing townies to post something when they have nothing or don't plan to post makes them scummy - luckily the same thing applies to scum players as well.
2)

BAD. You ask us to look at your score or previous playstyle and become biased. Basically, you are asking us to do what players SHOULDN'T do

. Just like I said I don't care how Whilst played in the past, the same will apply to you. And I think others should do the same. Also, you are a SE. True, you aren't a IC so you are not expected to point out newbie mistakes and recommend others what they should or shouldn't do. HOWEVER, the fact remains these games still include SE players for having a smoother play. And I believe a SE supposed to, at the very least, give an example of how to play the game. Asking newbies to do what is

wrong

doesn't exactly befitting of a SE, won't you agree?

To me it appears like an attempt to just post something, ANYTHING,in order to slip away

. If anything, this is the strongest thing I have against IAI atm.

_____________________________________________________________________________

Also no one answered what they think about discussing who will be night killed BEFORE the actual night

.
I see ups and downs so I'm not sure whatever it'll help the town or not. On one hand, we might block possible strategies in which scum kill someone and then plan to frame someone else with a certain reason. If we publicly mention this reason now - scum will think twice before using it. On the other hand, we might present some aspects the scum didn't take into account and there are chances scum are newbs (it's a newbie game after all). Though we still might help the doc, if he exists, at the same time.

[I Am Innocent]

cavjj, how so. Please explain.

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DC, I 100% disagree with "You ask us to look at your score or previous playstyle and become biased. Basically, you are asking us to do what players SHOULDN'T do." The more you know about a player, and how they play in a certain alignment, the easier it gets to look for those differences.

e.g. My first game on this site was with RayFrost, we were both town and we won in MyLo. Some time later he replaced into a game and I busted his scum butt in LyLo based on how non-committal he was to give anyone a likely town status. Very next game he was town IC and I scum SE and he saw right through me and my scum tactics. Luckily I got rid of him N1 and went on to win the game, but still, the more we know about someone's play, the better chance we can see how someone plays as scum and how someone plays as town and more correctly identify their alignment.

Re: "Asking newbies to do what is wrong doesn't exactly befitting of a SE, won't you agree?" I do agree with you, tho regarding your point I think meta is very important so I believe I am doing what is right in bringing mine forward.

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Agree with DC about not discussing NK before the actual night for reasons I mentioned prior.

[Honest Abel]

Looking at meta is a good idea. Someone asking you to look at their meta actually ruins the purpose. If I were scum and playing poorly and said "Look at my meta, I'm better than that, so I'm not scum," it would invalidate the whole point, because I'm likely using it to my advantage. On the other hand, if someone else were to say "Look at Abel's meta, he ain't that dumb as scum," then that would be an excellent point.

[DarkClaymore]

DC, I 100% disagree with "You ask us to look at your score or previous playstyle and become biased. Basically, you are asking us to do what players SHOULDN'T do." The more you know about a player, and how they play in a certain alignment, the easier it gets to look for those differences.

1)

The wiki advises against it.

2) Looking at how someone played before only misleads you. Every player should try to play the same as both town and mafia. If you see someone playing the same now as he did when he was town in another game - it gives you nothing. If he is playing scummy like he did in another game, then maybe yes - it can worth checking. BUT.

What you ask us to do - is to see how you played scum before and see how you are playing differently now. If anything, this only proves that odds are higher you are scum this time around. Because I'd expect someone to play differently as scum so that people won't be able to catch you based on your meta.

Sorry, but I don't think this can be used as a defense. All I can see is an attempt to say something that would sound "reasonable" yet is very misleading.
3)

Mentioning the score was obviously unnecessary. Even if you won 100 games out of 100 as scum, this wouldn't mean you can't make mistakes.

4) On the other forum I'm playing, we got a player who is known to cause havoc and say strange stuff. That's why, after a while, people started ignoring him and treating most of the "strange" stuff he says as joke. This allowed him to claim JOAT on D1 as everyone saw this as joke. Both town and mafia. So the mafia didn't even attempt to night kill him, yet he REALLY was JOAT. True, in this example it played in favor of the town. But only because the mafia members are the one who did the mistake and based their actions on his meta. In the following, game this almost worked against the town if not for one of the mafia members bussing this player.

Looking at meta is a good idea. Someone asking you to look at their meta actually ruins the purpose. If I were scum and playing poorly and said "Look at my meta, I'm better than that, so I'm not scum," it would invalidate the whole point, because I'm likely using it to my advantage. On the other hand, if someone else were to say "Look at Abel's meta, he ain't that dumb as scum," then that would be an excellent point.

That's also part of what I'm saying.

[Honest Abel]

DC, meta is a good idea. While every scum might

try

to play as they play when town, few succeed against a good town team. It's worth looking into.

DC, again, you're not adding anything to the discussion here. Even if you were to somehow disprove IAI's point about meta, all you've done is disproved a point, which doesn't make us a single shred closer to figuring out whether he's town or scum.

[DarkClaymore]

DC, again, you're not adding anything to the discussion here. Even if you were to somehow disprove IAI's point about meta, all you've done is disproved a point, which doesn't make us a single shred closer to figuring out whether he's town or scum.

I believe pointing out he wants us to clear him because of his meta, and how it's a weak and scummy argument, was worth it if no one thought about it. Just that.

[Honest Abel]

Sure, but two things: #632 is long as fuck; #635 added nothing to the discussion.

[Honest Abel]

Just a notice: starting today, I'm going to try to stop playing mafia at work unless I really have nothing else to do for a period of time. So see you guys later tonight.

[DarkClaymore]

Sure, but two things: #632 is long as fuck; #635 added nothing to the discussion.

I said to read only what's in bold if you want only the "main points".
In #635 I tried to stress why it's wrong IMO. Both in general and specifically in this case. I believe someone has to present these points or otherwise the whole thing will go unnoticed.

[Honest Abel]

It was a good point, thank you.

Is nobody else considering voting for DC?

[cavjj]

Nope. Unless something drastic happens that changes my mind, I wouldn't have thought my vote will change until I am lynched, or IAI is lynched. That doesn't mean I won't keep looking at other people though......

[Bricktoes]

Why so dead set?

[Honest Abel]

cavjj, are you voting IAI because you find him irrefutably the scummiest player, or is there some benefit you think we'll get out of it on D3 depending on his flip?

[cavjj]

The former. I would be surprised if IAI wasn't scum. Having lost two VT's yesterday, we have to lynch a scum today or D3 is going to be tough.

[Honest Abel]

We have two chances to lynch one scum, and overall three chances to lynch two scum no matter what (correct me if I'm wrong). I think we really need to consider the benefit of lynching each player over just trying to lynch scum today and nothing else.

[cavjj]

Aren't they essentially the same thing? Few people would vote unless they had looked at every player?

[Honest Abel]

In other words, I would be fine with lynching IAI if this were D1. But with tough times ahead, it might be better to come up with a plan. I'm going to make a list of positives and negatives for lynching everyone, probably tonight, so that we have a starting point for discussion. That is, if anybody actually wants to discuss. I think DC is the best bet right now, but when I tried to explain why, it got really confusing.

No, it's not the same thing. You're looking for one scum, I'm looking for a plan that gives us a better chance at finding two scum.

[cavjj]

Fair enough, didn't think about it like that.