TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win

[Junpei]

Ugh. Rodion once again you are ignoring my simple basic LINEAR logic. This is the last time once again I will post anything regarding this particular debate.

You said in your thread that she WOULDN'T defend herself when indeed the reason she didn't respond was because she COULDN'T defend the argument as said because there wasn't enough time to. You articulated this for me very clearly in your post.

Also if you know you're right and she refuses to acknowledge that, you do what I do and drop it, others will recognize the logic if it comes up again. Scumhunting is more important anyway.

[ThAdmiral]

He doesn't know what EST, PL, or ISO stands for. Unfamiliarty with MS terminology (or in the case of EST... human terminology?)

He knows what "VI" stands for well enough to use it in a sentence towards me casually and naturally. I don't think he be so unfamiliar with it as he be representing.

He's buying himself credit by not being familiar with the site. Newbie = nonthreatening = harmless = easy to read = town.

This is such bullshit. Do you actually believe this?

Posts like this be incredible wastes of the town's time that provide lots of words without lots of information...

I happen to think his reads on magna and pappams were fine. And what's wrong with asking people who haven't posted much to talk more so he can get a better read on them?

He tried so very non-hard to defend Zinger for the town cred, sure to remind people that it of course was mathematically possible that Zinger could be town despite claiming to be non-town, and that we cannot ever be sure for man is not wise in the mysteries of the universe badda badda.

You say defending zinger for town-cred, I say he was

actually right

about zinger. Zinger did indeed gambit (poorly) as town. Somehow you believe this makes rodion more likely scum. wtf?

[ThAdmiral]

I had no opinion of Pine because, well, there really was nothing to work with at all. Silver's case on Pine and his relentless pushing of a policy lynch without ever giving his reasons (being useless is not a reason, or we'd never be done policy lynching imo) are actually part of the reason I think Silver is likely scum. But I was most suspicious of Rodion all day yesterday and stated my case (which is very similar to Castle Bravo's) in depth at that time. ThAdmiral was insistent that Rodion was town, insistent enough to shake my town read on ThAd at one point and lead me to question ThAd about it. I don't think I got an answer and I STILL don't think Rodion is town.

A couple of people asked me why I thought Rodion was town. I first started thinking it in post 109. He claimed that he was a mislynch and that he was town. This is, of course, not proof - but it is the sort of thing that smacks of a newish player not knowing what else to say. I'm generally pretty good at picking when people are being genuine like this, and I think I'm right about this.
In 404 he gave a helpful list of other games he had been in/was in unprompted. This sort of open giving of information seems like behavior coming from someone who believes he has nothing to hide.

I've pretty much had him as a town read ever since. I think there were a few other things he has said that has reaffirmed my opinion of him but I can't remember them. If I looked I could probably find them, but only if you guys aren't satisfied with the above for some reason and want to pester me.

^^
There's your answer. I also find it odd that me saying I had a town-read on someone would make you suspicious of me. Why did it "shake (your) town read" on me?

[Banshee]

I did miss your answer, and I apologise.

This game has been filled with people saying "_________ is town! 100% town. Guaranteed town!" in response to the cases made by others and with no explanations or responses when questioned on that. By no stretch of the imagination could Zinger's play be considered pro-town or understandable town play. I challenge anyone who will argue that it should have been obvious that he was a pro-town role based on his play; I accept that others may have seen things I didn't, but it wasn't OBVIOUS. And, as a result, you're getting people who are accusing other people of being scum based on their insistent and unexplained identification of various people as town without good justification and without actually addressing the case against those people.

tl;dr: People who insist that others are town without giving reasons look like scum trying for town-cred. I don't understand why Rodion is getting a full free pass while others are being nailed up for what I think is the same behaviour.

[drmyshottyizsik]

Maybe I can't give you reasons...

[Junpei]

I did miss your answer, and I apologise.

This game has been filled with people saying "_________ is town! 100% town. Guaranteed town!" in response to the cases made by others and with no explanations or responses when questioned on that. By no stretch of the imagination could Zinger's play be considered pro-town or understandable town play. I challenge anyone who will argue that it should have been obvious that he was a pro-town role based on his play; I accept that others may have seen things I didn't, but it wasn't OBVIOUS. And, as a result, you're getting people who are accusing other people of being scum based on their insistent and unexplained identification of various people as town without good justification and without actually addressing the case against those people.

tl;dr: People who insist that others are town without giving reasons look like scum trying for town-cred. I don't understand why Rodion is getting a full free pass while others are being nailed up for what I think is the same behaviour.

1) Stop acting like you're so much more intelligent and aware than us and that you would have been able to provide concrete posts that had shown Zinger was town.

2) You replaced in AFTER zinger flipped, that's why it's obvious to you.

Banshee, he isn't getting a free pass. There are so many people doing incredibly scummy pushes/posts that we can't pressure them all, it is simply impossible.

[Rainbowdash]

@Rainbow:

Since your last post indicates you think Rodion is most likely town, can you explain the difference between Oversoul's terribad PBPA that was horribly noncommittal and Rodion's terribad PBPA that was horribly noncommittal, and why you're treating them in opposite ways when they're strikingly similar?

Rodion is a slight town read at this point yes. I do agree with you that the breakdown of players (not sure its a PBPA) was ugly from Rodion as well, but I think that it is a good summary of oversouls play as opposed to a good summary of Rodions play. Other posts from him have shown some, noteably not stellar but some, attempts at scumhunting. I also like his apporach to the Zinger wagon yesterday, and his early game interactions with DX. Those are all enough of town tells, that I see him as slightly town, and the current arguement really just threatening to get in the way of the game as opposed to catch scum.

If everyone is going to continue to ignore Oversoul, I will vote andrew.

@PaB - As much as I would love to get more support on the oversoul wagon *HINT HINT* he does actually appear to be on V/LA currently, although he just was ignoring this game for the week-ish prior to such.

@junepi/rodion

- Im going to be very blunt here. If neither of you plan to actually vote for eachother today, stop arguing. Its really sending the whole game off on a tangent that doesn't make any sense for its current state. Everypony is just starting to get fed up with this debate since its going in circles and has little to no effect on anyones decision for today. Put up or shut up. The game does suffer when you do this, even if this is town on scum the game is going to hurt.

[Rodion]

Your argument is that you didn't parrot Pappums, and you're right on that.

Thank you! I hope it didn't hurt!

But you went back to that defense and seemed to follow his arguments even after you said you wouldn't do so out of pride. I don't think you get to have it both ways on that, but I don't suppose I think it's scummy, especially since you're now completely relying on the "newbie defense."

Did you even read one of my many posts explaining this? There is no contradiction, no seesawing if you actually understand what I said.

Regarding the general behaviour question, disregard my answer if you want to as you don't need it anymore. You already have the game links. Research them. Derive conclusions. Report back here with said conclusions.

@everyone - I've been tired of banging my head against brick walls, so I've decided to establish a little policy of my own. I will only answer questions or cases directed at me if they are asked (or seconded) by someone that is

not

on this list:
- Meransiel
- Junpei
- Banshee
- Castle Bravo

I'm tired of all of them, sorry. If someone other than these 4 players think one of these 4 players made a good case/question that he'd like me to respond to, just second the question and I'll get to it (a simple quote of the question/case followed by "I'd like you to answer this one, Rodion" will suffice).

Ninja'd by Rainbowdash - I guess you will really like the "@everyone" part of this post.

[Rainbowdash]

Ninja'd by Rainbowdash - I guess you will really like the "@everyone" part of this post.

Would have liked it more if you used the proper "everypony" formating though.

[drmyshottyizsik]

@Rodion, why do they think you are scummy?

[andrew94]

@thadmiral and the other guy (forgot name)
i already stated before that i saw someone say if vezok said he went somewhere junpei hangs.

why would scum recruit another scum? please someone answer this...
here we go:

situation:
X is scum. he has to invite someone. he invites his scum bro and so
later on, it looks like X isnt the person who moi says 'is trying to
not get hit on two fronts, qt play and thread play'.


@rodion, moi didnt mention that i said it differently. i thought my newest recruit (Y) was scum, but not directly because of his actions, but because of his interactions with another suspicious player.
i therefore invited him to see what he say etc.
whats wrong with recruiting some people that i think may be scum??? lol


david and silver also playing ping pong, i gotta go back to my day 1 post and see who else i said were playing ping pong.

Also you don't log on once a day andrew. Or if you do you certainly don't post in the thread once a day. A quick look of your ISO shows this.

dont make me freaking explain this. ffs. i usually go on once a day (weekdays). if not, i go on at school. if not, its weekends. if not, its because i have some time free


@junepiresponds to ur 1619
dude are you /**********.
1)easjo's post basically says something along the lines of ' X'
everyone: hey easjo said 'he cant see it helping town' so he must be town
but hes just saying it to make himself seem like town and doing something at the same time. get it?
for example i say: guys lets not do this it doesnt help town
so it looks like im doing something but then i could have just said that above whether im town or scum
and it looks to be more likely scum.

2) ok whatever.
3) ok maybe i see wrong.
4) i responded to it already

i took 48 hours to respond btw


also, whats wrong with me not revealing my reasons for recruiting moi, you dont need to know.


also, i noticed that when i wasnt here, people didnt say as much crap about me. all i see is someone quoting part of my post and saying this is bad this is bad etc. (after i post) what does this show? oppourtunistic

[ThAdmiral]

1) Stop acting like you're so much more intelligent and aware than us and that you would have been able to provide concrete posts that had shown Zinger was town.

2) You replaced in AFTER zinger flipped, that's why it's obvious to you.

To be fair to banshee you've completely misread what he wrote.

@thadmiral and the other guy (forgot name)
i already stated before that i saw someone say

if vezok said he went somewhere

junpei hangs.\

But he didn't, so...

\situation:
X is scum. he has to invite someone. he invites his scum bro and so
later on, it looks like X isnt the person who moi says 'is trying to
not get hit on two fronts, qt play and thread play'.

...what? Can you explain this again because I literally don't know what you are going on about here.

whats wrong with recruiting some people that i think may be scum??? lol

What do you hope to gain by recruiting a scum-read in to your neighborhood.

Also:

**THE FOLLOWING NEEDS TO BE ANSWERED**

firstly, banshee what do you mean 'this'

It was a hyperlink to the post that caused me to vote for you. I thought that was evident.

What is the value of the "integrity" of the discussion between unconfirmed neighbours, in your view? Also, in your opinion what is the benefit of daytalk between unconfirmed individuals?

[drmyshottyizsik]

I'm with andrew on this TBH, as much as I dont like him sometimes Jenpie looks really opportunistic

[andrew94]

someone said the following: junpei hangs if vezok counters
before vezok said anything. therefore i asked the question after (i will try to find that person)

my second point is that moi said the following: scum neighbourizer has to balance because they get owned on two fronts: the qt and the thread.
now, if someone is a scum neighbour, wouldnt the logical thing to do is to
A) get a scum partner
B) get some town later on

to see what he says, i can determine the other guys alignment from junpei(As im not THAT sure)

integrity= 2 can keep a secret. 3 cant
the arrangement was that if A dies then B is scum
if B dies A is scum
if moi dies A and B reveal each other
i thought if i recruited a scum then he can exploit this

[David Xanatos]

I have no sodding idea what the hell this means:

"to see what he says, i can determine the other guys alignment from junpei(As im not THAT sure) "

Are you seriously suggesting we lynch a claimed Tracker so you (think you can) discover what alignment your recruit it? o_0

[David Xanatos]

Rainbow > Doing an ISO of Oversoul and Pere now.. apologies it's taken me this long, had an exam.

[David Xanatos]

Okay. Impression of Peregrine from reading through his ISO and checking contexts is that he's far, far too non-commital, as you say. His entire D1 play could be summarised as "X makes a good point, but so does Y."

*votes someone non-controversial*.

At this point, I would be behind pressure on him, not to a full-claim perhaps, but I want a list of his reads, with reasoning. No "well X might be Y", solid reads. If he doesn't have any solid reads by now, I'd say that's grounds enough for investigation.

Moving on to Oversoul now.

[Meransiel]

I'm with andrew on this TBH, as much as I dont like him sometimes Jenpie looks really opportunistic

Ok, this style of posting from you needs to stop.

Vote: shotty

I'm ok with hammering on Silver. or Rodion. Nobody else. But until need arises, my vote stays here. Also, Castle Bravo is starting to become one of my town reads.

[Meransiel]

Okay. Impression of Peregrine from reading through his ISO and checking contexts is that he's far, far too non-commital, as you say. His entire D1 play could be summarised as "X makes a good point, but so does Y."

*votes someone non-controversial*.

At this point, I would be behind pressure on him, not to a full-claim perhaps, but I want a list of his reads, with reasoning. No "well X might be Y", solid reads. If he doesn't have any solid reads by now, I'd say that's grounds enough for investigation.

This is a Large, so the type of non-commital character Peregrine has is rather understandable.If anything, I'm null on the guy.

[ThAdmiral]

For a while there it seemed the more you spoke the less I understood, but I

think

I've got a handle on this. I would still like some clarification though. I'll put all my questions in yes/no format so there is less room for ambiguity. I'll also number the questions so that you can just reply in the format:

1. yes
2. no
etc.

someone said the following: junpei hangs if vezok counters
before vezok said anything. therefore i asked the question after (i will try to find that person)

1. So was the initial question only directed at that one person?
2. And were you asking to determine who they would be more likely to trust if vezok counterclaimed?
3. And why they would be more likely to trust that person?

my second point is that moi said the following: scum neighbourizer has to balance because they get owned on two fronts: the qt and the thread.
now, if someone is a scum neighbour, wouldnt the logical thing to do is to
A) get a scum partner
B) get some town later on

I believe what you are referring to is what MoI posted in 1590:

Scum on the other hand would have to balance the danger of bringing a Town player into the QT and risk getting fingered for play on two fronts (Thread and QT)

4. Is this correct?
5. Do you believe this now?
Because after MoI initially posted this you said, in 1618,

directly referring to that quote

:

no they dont... how so.

6. So have you gone back on your initial opinion of what MoI said?
7. Furthermore do you believe MoI is scum, because you say it would be likely for the other neighbourizer (who you think is scum) to recruit scum first?

to see what he says, i can determine the other guys alignment from junpei(As im not THAT sure)

8. Just to confirm are you responding to:

What do you hope to gain by recruiting a scum-read in to your neighborhood.

9. When you say "the other guy" do you mean the other neighbourizer? (If "no" please elaborate here on who "the other guy" is)
10. Do you believe "the other guy" is scum with junpei?

integrity= 2 can keep a secret. 3 cant
the arrangement was that if A dies then B is scum
if B dies A is scum
if moi dies A and B reveal each other
i thought if i recruited a scum then he can exploit this

10. Is the secret that you are a neighbourizer?
11. Do you want scum to exploit this?
Because it seems weird that you would recruit someone who you have a scum-read if that was the case. Once again please elaborate here if you feel it is necessary.

[Banshee]

1) Stop acting like you're so much more intelligent and aware than us and that you would have been able to provide concrete posts that had shown Zinger was town.

2) You replaced in AFTER zinger flipped, that's why it's obvious to you.

I don't think this is directed at me. I voted for Zinger's lynch and put him at L-1, which led directly to his hammer and lynch. I'm not sure who it's directed toward, though.

@meransiel

Apart from Andrew's recruitment of MoI, what's your current read on him?

[jasonT1981]

Day 2 Vote Count 5

Silver 6 - Nero, Hipaddict, Leon, Shotty, CHKBallin, Junpei
Andrew 5 - THAdmiral, Banshee, DavidX, Killer, Izak
Izak 3 - ZeL1nk, Pinky, Silver
Rodion 2 - Castle, Vezo
Pappums 1 - MOI
Mera 1 - Rodion
Cherve 1 - Pappums
Oversoul 1 - Rainbowdash
Shotty 1 - Mera

Not Voting

PeregrineV
Andrew94
Chevre
Oversoul

With 25 alive, it takes 13 to lynch

[Rodion]

@rodion, moi didnt mention that i said it differently. i thought my newest recruit (Y) was scum, but not directly because of his actions, but because of his interactions with another suspicious player.
i therefore invited him to see what he say etc.
whats wrong with recruiting some people that i think may be scum??? lol

In and of itself, there is nothing wrong with trying to keep a closer eye in someone you find scummy. What bothers me is MoI's claim that you wanted to keep the "integrity" of the QT. You certainly can't keep it if you invite scum and you invited someone you thought was scum, so how is that coherent with your wish to keep the integrity of the QT?

integrity= 2 can keep a secret. 3 cant
the arrangement was that if A dies then B is scum
if B dies A is scum
if moi dies A and B reveal each other
i thought if i recruited a scum then he can exploit this

I can actually accept this answer as reasonable grounds for not wanting to invite someone to the neighbourhood. You don't even need to asnwer my former question anymore. I have a new one, though.

In the end you decided to risk the integrity of the QT by recruiting someone else. Don't you think, however, that if you had recruited a town read of yours to the QT its integrity would be less compromised than if you recruited a scum read of yours (like you did)? If so, why take a bigger risk (recruit scum read) of losing the QT integrity if you could have taken a smaller risk (recruit town read)?

[ZeL1nK]

Hi.

I'll, er... try to do something convincing tomorrow. izak and shotty are still scum, and it's so, so, so, so hard to get scum lynched for some reason.

[drmyshottyizsik]

I'm with andrew on this TBH, as much as I dont like him sometimes Jenpie looks really opportunistic

Ok, this style of posting from you needs to stop.

Vote: shotty

I'm ok with hammering on Silver. or Rodion. Nobody else. But until need arises, my vote stays here. Also, Castle Bravo is starting to become one of my town reads.

The kind of posting in which I give my input? Ok.