TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win

[MagnaofIllusion]

This game is making my brain hurt. I'll try to make something of a post in the next 48 hours.

[Meransiel]

@Banshee: If I would disregard that, I would find him scummy. But I can't disregard it.
@shotty: The kind of posting where you give your input and nothing else without justification and reasoning, the kind of posting where you don't ask questions, yes.

@Link: dunno if you tried or not, but please kill izak. For my own sanity.

[PeregrineV]

@Peregrine - You can guess who I want thoughts on. Also respond to the rest of my inital case if you can.

This is a Large, so the type of non-commital character Peregrine has is rather understandable.

For my response, I'll make it easy and quote Meransiel, since that sums it up very efficiently. ( will go back and look over Oversoul again)

@silver- so know you've done claiming, who are your top three scum suspects, and who are your three "town" reads? A why would be great, and links to back up facts (as differentiated from opinion).

@Jun, Rodion, DavidX- While I enjoy a discussion of mafia theory as much as the next person, taking up pages with it strongly discourages re-reads in later days.
And, who are your top three scum suspects, and who are your three "town" reads? A why would be great, and links to back up facts (as differentiated from opinion).

@Andrew- I'm not understanding your posts as fully as I like. Please spell out words and use small ones to help me understand it better. And confused about why you would not give your reasons for choosing MoI. The cat is already out of the bag, so to speak, so the evasion is suspicious. So, to ask directly since you've already mentioned that you

would

recruit scum, did you recruit MoI thinking he was scum?
What are your thoughts on him now?

@Castle- I like your presented case on Rodion, but not getting the scum vibe from the posts. If you still feel he is scum, who would you most likely think are his scumbuddies?

Vote:Izak

Someone keeps mentioning "that's the way he plays", but have you done an ISO on him?

@Izak- Since you're currently voting Andrew- what do you think of his recent posts and reasoning?

[Junpei]

Top 3 would be in order:

Andrew
Silver
Zel1nK

I don't want to have to write up reasons why on all of them when I've articulated each of them already.

Yes i see the reasons for the other sixteen thousand scummy people, but there are too many lynch targets that look like scum. Note that I'm voting silver because Andrew if scum is very likely neighborizer, which isn't nearly as dangerous as whatever silver might be.

[David Xanatos]

And again Peregrine dodges the demands to give his reads on people, and tries to demand reads from others.

That's anti-town if not outright scummy.

UNVOTE: Andrew
VOTE: Peregrine

Reads. You've been dodging this and fence sitting for far too long. You have no right to demand of others what you yourself have provided sweet F.A of.

[Rodion]

@Peregrine

Top 3 town reads:

Rodion
Zinger
Vollkan

Top 3 scum reads (I will not elaborate because all those reads are direct consequences of my discussions and were already explained - if you really want me to elaborate, let me know):

Meransiel
Castle Bravo
Junpei/Andrew (pending results of Andrew's answers)

Top 3 town reads (serious version - wonder how many people I managed to irritate with my former one ):

Chkballin
Pinky and the Brain
Pappums Leather Jacket

Ballin and Pinky are there for pretty much the same reasn. They made respectable efforts in fact checking and managed to catch people lying. While lying is not a failproof way of finding scum (check Zinger's fakeclaim), their willingness to go the extra mile is commendable. Ballin did that on the 3isF/Hipaddict "double Vifam vote" case and Pinky did that on the "Meran says there is no scum JK" case. Other than that, I don't see any scumtells coming from either.
As for Pappums, it's not technically a town read as much as a way of saying that for now I will not let him be lynched without anything short of a smoking gun kind of evidence. I'm getting the feeling that a good ammount of the players here are willing to follow MoI with few/no questions asked and that is anti-town even if MoI is in fact town aligned. Without Pappums here it can all derail pretty fast, as at times he seems to be the one player willing to question MoI instead of sheeping.

[PeregrineV]

Top 3 would be in order:

Andrew
Silver
Zel1nK

I don't want to have to write up reasons why on all of them when I've articulated each of them already.

Yes i see the reasons for the other sixteen thousand scummy people, but there are too many lynch targets that look like scum. Note that I'm voting silver because Andrew if scum is very likely neighborizer, which isn't nearly as dangerous as whatever silver might be.

You see, I'm ok that they are your scumpicks, but then I ask the question, you think Andrew is scum neighborizor with Silver who is also a scum power role with Zel1nk who is also scum?

Yeah, I'll have to go back and look for your arguments, because I don't seem to remember you putting for any good reasons for any of them. But hey, that's why this is a forum game!

[PeregrineV]

And again Peregrine dodges the demands to give his reads on people, and tries to demand reads from others.

That's anti-town if not outright scummy.

UNVOTE: Andrew
VOTE: Peregrine

Reads. You've been dodging this and fence sitting for far too long. You have no right to demand of others what you yourself have provided sweet F.A of.

Reads: DavidX: null

[Junpei]

I never said they were a scum team Peregrine, they are just the scummiest people in the game in my opinion. I can't form a scum team based on connection logic at this point.

Also how about giving a real set of reads like David and I did back in day 1?

[PeregrineV]

@Peregrine

Top 3 town reads:

Rodion
Zinger
Vollkan

Top 3 scum reads (I will not elaborate because all those reads are direct consequences of my discussions and were already explained - if you really want me to elaborate, let me know):

Meransiel
Castle Bravo
Junpei/Andrew (pending results of Andrew's answers)

Top 3 town reads (serious version - wonder how many people I managed to irritate with my former one ):

Chkballin
Pinky and the Brain
Pappums Leather Jacket

Ballin and Pinky are there for pretty much the same reasn. They made respectable efforts in fact checking and managed to catch people lying. While lying is not a failproof way of finding scum (check Zinger's fakeclaim), their willingness to go the extra mile is commendable. Ballin did that on the 3isF/Hipaddict "double Vifam vote" case and Pinky did that on the "Meran says there is no scum JK" case. Other than that, I don't see any scumtells coming from either.
As for Pappums, it's not technically a town read as much as a way of saying that for now I will not let him be lynched without anything short of a smoking gun kind of evidence. I'm getting the feeling that a good ammount of the players here are willing to follow MoI with few/no questions asked and that is anti-town even if MoI is in fact town aligned. Without Pappums here it can all derail pretty fast, as at times he seems to be the one player willing to question MoI instead of sheeping.

I would like an elaboration, please, since I have a town read on Meransiel, and Captain Bravo (and you might be biased since he's voting you and tunneling you hard, so can you add a read #4?), and was wondering if you do not believe Junp's claim, or do you think he is a scum tracker?

Understood on town reads. Thanks!

[PeregrineV]

I never said they were a scum team Peregrine, they are just the scummiest people in the game in my opinion. I can't form a scum team based on connection logic at this point.

Also how about giving a real set of reads like David and I did back in day 1?

I've actually decided to do so through a conversational method with the rest of the town as they share their thoughts. This will not only encourage interaction between myself and others, but will increase my interest in the game. And, when we're done, I will post a fantabulous

scummary

of who is scum and why!

Also, I think the scum are on a team, so the "scummy people" thing weakens your case against them, at least to me.

[Rodion]

I would like an elaboration, please, since I have a town read on Meransiel, and Captain Bravo (and you might be biased since he's voting you and tunneling you hard, so can you add a read #4?), and was wondering if you do not believe Junp's claim, or do you think he is a scum tracker?

Understood on town reads. Thanks!

I'd like to think that I'm rational enough to be unbiased even towards those that vote me. Banshee, for instance, is the person that lead the accusations on me and I don't have a scum read on her because she actually made a few good points in our convo. Vezok also voted me blatantly sheeping Castle's weak case on me, but Vezok's VI reputation allows him to do that kind of thing without looking scummy (more on the VI accountability thing can be found in some of my comments regarding Andrew - ISO me if you're interested).

Castle is a scum read because of the extremely poor logic he's using to vote me. From the top of my mind, he:
a) mentioned how I didn't know some acronyms in the beginning and "suddenly" knew what a VI was about 70 pages later
b) gave a weird "yes" answer (that I still don't understand - please aid me if you do) to an "A or B" question and called me scum for not understanding it
c) parroted Banshee's case on how my D1 PBPA was non-committal (he could have pointed to Banshee's observation, but he preferred to quote some of my non-committal reads to make the case look like his own instead)
d) did not bother giving a second scum read

My case on Meran is in #1565 - http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p3311570 (for your information, point "1", in which I say I didn't understand his reasoning, was not answered and I still do not understand it)

Regarding Junpei, a scum fakeclaiming tracker would be in a really tough position. Guess wrong a report and you die. He could guess that a specific person did not go anywhere and then he could possibly out a PR when counterclaimed, but they wouldn't even know which PR was outed, just that someone did indeed visit someone else. The false tracker could play it safe and make a report on one of his scumbuddies, thus guaranteeing that he would not be counterclaimed. The problem with that is that targeting the same person over and over again will not be acceptable and he would eventually run out of scumbuddies. Moreover, after flipping scum non-tracker his buddies that did not "counterclaim" him would be severely exposed.

That considered, I tend to think he is a tracker indeed (and if he isn't, jackpot for us!). Given how scummy he has been acting, more likely mafia than town.

As of right now I don't feel comfortable with giving you a #4 other than possibly Andrew (pending his answers), even though I got my eyes on MoI and Zelink and I want to check if, like Meran said, Izak plays every game like he is playing this one.

[Rainbowdash]

Peregrine - Can you explain your Izak vote more?

I need to read through Peregrine, Izak, Andrew sometime soon here and come to a more definative conclusion.

[Meransiel]

Someone keeps mentioning "that's the way he plays", but have you done an ISO on him?

*raises hand*
Yes, I have. You see, the point of a lynch is looking for who is against, who is biding his time, who is pushing too hard. Relational tells. However, since we ALL agree that izak is scummy and useless, we ALL condone his death. Ergo, there's not relational tells to speak of.

@Rainbowdash: Not sure if you mentioned this or not, but what are your town reads? All of them, not necessarily in any specific order.

Also, since I am getting sick of this, can someone please read Rodion's case on me, then ISO my posts, then agree that YES, it IS a bad case?

[Junpei]

Meranseil, I don't really know what his case is. However I think I know why you find his post scummy (I believe his case is that you didn't explain this ergo scum? It's really confusing the way it's worded). But in that post Rodion does a few things.

I cut out the large chunk where he talks about his meta

Zinger is getting under my skin. His behaviour so far has been very anti-town, but I don't know if he's scum-aligned. My vote is on him to hopefully change his behaviour for the better. I could just as easily vote Meran, particularly after his #400 admission that he will contribute if pushed hard.

The first is he waffles "Zingers play is anti-town but I don't know if he is scum-aligned" to me sounds like he is saying zinger is scummy but he doesn't know if he's scum, which is waffling.

Then says that his vote is to hopefully change his behavior for the better. There are two things wrong with this.

1) In my opinion saying that your vote is put down for a specific purpose is a scum trying to get towncred. It was too early to say this anyway because Zinger had 3 posts between Rodion's vote and this post by Rodion so it is far too early to disclose why you voted as any effect it may have had on him is now gone and replaced with him thinking that you're being condescending. It isn't like Rodion's vote was going to turn on a switch, rather he should be hoping for a slow turn in Zingers "anti-town" play into a more "acceptable" tone for Rodion. So it goes back to 1 this post being just for towncred.

2) The original vote on Zinger was "for not answer [rodion's] request in #325", and post 325 reiterates a request from 200 which states that Rodion wants the game linked that shows bad blood between the hydra ZeL1nK and Zinger. First of all I see no reason why he'd want this so badly, as all it will do is unearth the hatred even more and start discussion regarding it that doesn't need to be made. So it is a bad request especially after ignored by Zinger the first time. However the fact that he later says it was to change Zingers' attitude and then discloses said motive in less than 24 hours (about 13-14 hours to be precise) contradicts this theory. There's no way zinger would change his behavior that fast.

SO this is my scum read on Rodion from that post which is what I think he was confused on. But I still am not sure what Rodion wants. Meranseil however I haven't really read his whole case on you at all to memory (looked at it when it was posted, never really thought much about it) I will read it tomorrow if you persist, however I think that this scummy post is the most useful piece of information I'd garner from it.

[andrew94]

thadmirals questions:

1) dude, read what i said.
i said @everyone blah blah blah.
i wanted that particular person to answer tho
oh i found that person hes moi (post 1495)
2) yea
3) huh? if your asking me whether im asking why they would more likely
to trust that person,
yes
if not, i dont understand

4)yes
5)yes to an extent
6) yes i went back on my opinion
7) slightly yes
8) im not sure whether im responding to that or not. im saying i can
determine another guys alignment from junpei
9) yes the other neighbourizer
10) yes
10 (Again)) its the secret that me and moi were neighbours. the reason i didnt want to night recruit at first was because that guy might be scum
11) huh? i said if i invited scum he COULD exploit this (if both neighbourizer town)
that someone isnt a scum read set in stone. its an indirect scumread that i got from the other neighbourizer

comments on thadmiral: you know how you voted me because of being under the boat on day 1?
then you know how you voted me first thing on day 2 again?
am i still under the boat? and is your vote still on me?(cant remember)

some of your questions are suspicious.



@david X misunderstands me as usual. i never said anything about lynching junpei.

@rodion i believe i have answered your questions as well.

[andrew94]

also, during the weekends i wanna find some people that are clustered around this convo that are oppourtunistic and sus

and those that totally skim past (apart from chk)

[ThAdmiral]

comments on thadmiral: you know how you voted me because of being under the boat on day 1?
then you know how you voted me first thing on day 2 again?
am i still under the boat? and is your vote still on me?(cant remember)

You aren't "under the boat" (?), but you have been very curt and ambiguous with your answers, which indicates you could have something to hide. The preceeding post is the first that I have been able to more or less completely understand you. And that was like drawing blood from a stone.
So no, you aren't under the boat...

But I still think you are scum, so the vote stays.

Also you still haven't responded to:

**THE FOLLOWING NEEDS TO BE ANSWERED**

firstly, banshee what do you mean 'this'

It was a hyperlink to the post that caused me to vote for you. I thought that was evident.

What is the value of the "integrity" of the discussion between unconfirmed neighbours, in your view? Also, in your opinion what is the benefit of daytalk between unconfirmed individuals?

some of your questions are suspicious.

Cool. Which ones? Why?

I've got some questions, but I'm busy right now, will ask later.

[vezokpiraka]

mod I have limited access until sunday

[David Xanatos]

8) im not sure whether im responding to that or not. im saying i can
determine another guys alignment from junpei

@david X misunderstands me as usual. i never said anything about lynching junpei.

You do realise Junpei's claimed Tracker, right? Not a Cop? Can't determine alignments?

He follows people and finds out who they visited.. the Town Doc still goes to someone's house if they were protected by him and hit by a strongman shot..

[jasonT1981]

Cherve replaced by TheJakalope
Leonshade replaced by Mysterio

thank you

[Rodion]

@rodion i believe i have answered your questions as well.

I don't think you did.

These are the questions I'd like you to reply to when you have the time.

In the end you decided to risk the integrity of the QT by recruiting someone else. Don't you think, however, that if you had recruited a town read of yours to the QT its integrity would be less compromised than if you recruited a scum read of yours (like you did)? If so, why take a bigger risk (recruit scum read) of losing the QT integrity if you could have taken a smaller risk (recruit town read)?

[Mysterio]

Sup everyone. Skimming this massive thread now.

[TheJakalope]

Hello. I've got 74 pages to read, so it will be a little bit before I post anything worthwhile.

[Castle Bravo]

Rodion is mad because he thinks that I don't have enough information to know he's scum, and he thinks I got lucky.

Like how charball suspicion appeared around when I said he died after Rodion, but I'm scum.

Where are my Rodion votes? Go town, go.