~~Mini 1216: S.M.H. (A.S.N.P.T.) Mafia GAME OVER!!! WOOO~~

[don_johnson]

vote: 2birds

why are you worried about the question being a trap?

to answer: lately i have been loving me some vanilla town roles. although i did just jailkeep a town to a sweet victory. as scum i prefer gf/rb etc. anything with power. had i known there were so many hydras i may not have replaced in. :/ not a big fan of trying to read more than one persons bullshit and trying to make sense out of it.

[don_johnson]

this type of thing could require evidence. though i agree in theory that random voting is a difficult endeavour for scum, i am not sure if "random.org" has ever been used by scum in my experience. i see no issue with the argument other than if it is being used fallaciously, i.e. "i have seen random.org used by scum," ok, provide evidence, "uh, well i don't have any...". in other news,

2birds: are you implying that you were wary of ansering the question for fear that

someone else

might fall into a trap?

[don_johnson]

unvote, vote: killerX029

a) this is not the newb forum, "playing the newb card" is disallowed.
b) your reasoning for the vote on sleuth makes no sense in light of the fact that two players just got prodded with a combined post total equal to that of sleuth.

rng=scum is not "crap". that was a logical argument as far as i can tell. not rock solid, but certainly not fallacious in the way it was presented.

[don_johnson]

wow. killer, please post your thoughts. if you are town, that was a horrible move. gaylord, please post what "information" you will glean if killer flips scum? town?

not much to reread here, but i'll post some thoughts hopefully before mod gets in here.

[don_johnson]

i honestly can't reread this game and see killertown.

post 31 i notice the "buddying" someone later refers to.

chkflip 26 is rather innocuous, and his question to 2birds is as well. 2birds, however, seems to take that question seriously...

i think captain haoola is town.

i do not like mafiafixed's play. can someone explain the "pesterlog" crap?

the hellhound case was good and he also joins the growing killer wagon.

51 kind of seals it. hellhound and killer are opposite alignments imo. townkiller = scum hound. scumkiller = VIhound.

the killer vote switch to cleuth is interesting. possible distancing there, but wouldn't explain the self vote unless killer is vanilla scum and sleuth power.

72 and 73 may desevre another look. two giant fence sits on the most prominent discussion happening at the time.

dammit, not much info as far as i can see. really don't like the gaylord hammer regardless of the flip. consider yourself my number one suspect atm. i am really interested to see if you respond to my request for a post or if you lurk til the death scene.

[don_johnson]

don't like the hammer, but in my experience, ballsy quick hammers are more often town. "other head did it" excuse, however is shady to the max. i'd like to here more from benmage here, this lurking needs to end. i don't see anything wrong with jam's vote today, but he pinged my scumdar day 1, so i'll have to go back and reread and refresh my memory as to why...

lew: good to see you. give me a fresh pair of eyes on that horrendous day 1. what do you think of hellhound and sleuth?

[don_johnson]

lew: i have to admit that i was slightly hesitant to bring it to L-2. at that point in time, it didn't look fast to me. the way those last two votes piled on is what made that wagon "fast" imo. without that, it would have been just another day 1 wagon. i'd like to say benmages last post is unacceptable. i would like gaylord to explain, but ben should be doing more than reacting to votes at this time.

vote: benmage

Could all Hydra's make their identities public?

captain already confessed, but it doesn't help me as i don't know either head. i'm guessing big sleep is part of the team, but i second the above request.

[don_johnson]

ben: unacceptable in that you'd been basically lurking(or at least appearing to). expecting others to contribute when you are not is "unnacceptable" imo, though perhaps i used to harsh a wording. not sure if the "cough"ing is directed at me, but i don't believe i've been sheeping shitty votes. i think gaylord is more likely town in this scenario, so regardless of his lack of reasoning, i put some stock in his vote, and considering your lack of showing so far, i have no issue adding pressure to your wagon. it certainly elicited a response, no? still need to reread.

mod: v/la aug 19-22

captain 107 is bad. i hate hydras. cap was a town read. oh well. i'll try to post something coherent before we leave.

[don_johnson]

dj: why is captain a townread? I simply don't see it, and I don't see why gaylord is likely town, as you say. Can you explain it to me?

i thought his day 1 play was protown. if you want me to quote some of it i can. its not a hugely strong feeling, but i find i am able to hunt better when i solidify reads. i was willing to solidify him for the time being, but now i have to reconsider. gaylord is likely town because that hammer was ballsy as fuck. he's either really brazen scum, or likely town power. i've never seen vanilla town pull that shit, and scum rarely will as well(although i have done it as scum, albeit in smaller games where a quicklynch is huge for scum. in a game this size, i would say the hammer makes him more likely town than less. not much, but certainly a bit.) do you think he's scum?

ben: unacceptable in that you'd been basically lurking(or at least appearing to).

Do you think I was strategically lurking?

no, but voting you certainly helps me find out. i'm not sure why a second vote would cause you so much distress.

This isn't your first rodeo... Has RL ever gotten in the way of your mafia gaming?

Better yet.. have you ever seen RL effect players on this site?

absolutely, but if i just let everyone make excuses for not posting, what kind of townie would i be?

I asked an unexplained vote to be explained... Thats pretty damn basic....SHIT you even agreed with wanting it explained. Moreover I gave a timeframe on when I had time to post. That night. If I continued to fall off the radar... or be minimal in my content... maybe you could warrant something.

certainly. its not like you are being lynched here. i think you are overreacting to a vote. hence why i am leaving it there. not one question in this post is directed at gaylord, who is the one who voted you first. just seems odd. i don't think its a big deal, but you seem to be making it one.

You sheeped him without even knowing why he voted me.

no. i voted you because instead of posting content, you questioned the first guy to vote you. i guess i expected more of a catch up type post and then a rebuttal to gaylord. dude. i seriously don't know how many times i can type "gaylord" without laughing.

do you think my vote is better served elsewhere? if so, who should it be on and why?

[don_johnson]

just back from camping trip. will address this soon. a quick glance tells me benmage is still whining about an obvious pressure vote.

lew: i'll get to the VCA, its been a fun few days and i will need a quick reread to refresh my memory. have the next couple days off but still need to unpack and get settled. quick thoughts shines a light on the L-1 vote, cause gay's hammer was just too ballsy. not sure who that was, and i don't remember the early votes tbh, so i will post some foundations later.

[don_johnson]

skimmed back to the final VC and lolz, i see the self vote now. that was

this

game. i would say that increases the likelihood of gaylordscum, but i hate to see a day 2 wagon move any faster than a bad day 1 wagon. i certainly see no reason to move my vote from benmage atm.

gaylord: why did you hammer? why will you not share your identities? studying meta(though i'm not a big fan) is an established part of this game. i know some players create alts to avoid a "reputation" of sorts from following them or to try out new playstyles and such, but as a hydra i'm not sure io see the benefit. "what are you trying to hide?" is the natural question. reread coming later, different game has priority this AM.

[don_johnson]

has anyone played with mafiafixed before? the pesterlog reads like a comedic interpretation of events? i don't get it.

[don_johnson]

ben: if gay and sleep are scum together, why does it matter if gay votes sleep?

lew: are we set on sleep or gay? i'm fine with gaylord claiming, but leaving him at L-1 may not be a good idea.

i think 187 is bullshit. my vote stays where it is for now. ben's done nothing but whine and complain and his scumlist consists of the popular wagon, and omgus case, and one of our least active posters. anyhoo, gaylord please claim.

[don_johnson]

L-1 can be quickhammered before the claim. The case on gay stems from his early hammer yesterday. I was trying to avoid this situation but since hes going to claim: myworry is that he has a pr. I have made some questionable plays on day 1 to avoid drawing nks in the past. but whatevz, balls in his court. Get the claim and discuss. Nobody hammer.

[don_johnson]

^^ this not a townie post. at all. i really don't get how i am the only one who sees this. could ben

be

any more of a drama queen? he's simultaneously dismissing the issues against him(overeaction which is still going on) is attemtping to goad me into hammering gaylord, and seems to be differentiating between two players he's

sure

are scum. a vote for one is a vote for the other. i don't know, if gaylord flips town, please don't let this guy slide

[don_johnson]

vote: gaylord focker

vt don't hammerz like that. sorry ben. sleep is next. don't let him talk you out of it.

[don_johnson]

So no reads. Whatevz. If youre not scum you need to retire.

[don_johnson]

That is completely uncalled for. if you want to talk about it thats fine, buy attacking me for expecting people to play in a game they signed up for is not unheard of. Sorry.

[don_johnson]

so i take it this is a mislynch?

[don_johnson]

you're really into butts, aren't you?

i was just kidding. hope lifes not too rough. maybe reveal your heads?

[don_johnson]

Just back from camping. Work tomorrow, post probably tuesday.

Quick question: jam, how old are you?

[don_johnson]

massclaim suggestion is not rolefishing. it can be detrimental when done too early, but simply bringing it up for discussion is not scummy imo. will have time for proper posting tomorrow but i just wanted to chime in on that account. i would still like an answer from jam.

[don_johnson]

CC here
I'm leaning town TS. His 658 was amazingly townie, and at the moment I'm severely opposed to his lynch.
Benmage on the other hand... I need to talk him over with Haoala.

I am afraid you might be right about TS.

meh. i don't like the giant AtE and i see no reason why his lew vote post was "amazingly townie." if you're referring to a different post, please clarify(i'm assuming you meant 258.)

@JAMFTW: how many game of mafia have you completed? Is this one of your first ones or are you a more experienced player? I am looking for your meta.

not quite what i was getting at, but i was reading you as a teenager. in your mid-20's i was thinking you should sound a bit different. there was something "off" to me about your posting on day 1, and its reared its head today as well. when i get more time tonight i will put together something to better explain it.

in general: I still have a strong feeling that one between hell and lurco is scum, and I also feel like lurco is acting townier than hell.

i need to reread both of these players cause i don't see where you're getting this. i feel like both have been pretty inactive until today.

errands to run this afternoon, but i'll be in here later.

mod: can we get a votecount?

[don_johnson]

its not a question of attitude, but of wisdom and content. disclaimer: iso reads can be taken out of context. try not to misinterpret my post as a series of accusations, it is a series of inquiries to which i expect a response. a quote wall response is unnecessary, so i will number questions for you.

Just trying to get a handle on the names in this game. The first time I saw a vote for teamsleep, I thought that was some kind of vote for some type of mechanic that I was unaware of, lol.

right out the gate you're posting like a teenager. then your "random" vote isplaced on a silent player while you state that there is no sense in voting players who have not read their pms. i don't see the difference. 1) i'm sure one can be explained, but in the random stage, what's the

real

difference?

Also, and this will be more than a little of the pot calling the kettle black here:

Sleuth, add more to the discussion. My vote was on you initially because you hadn't talked at all. And my confidence in you as a possible scum to lynch has increased since then. Your contributions thus far have been...lacking. My vote is staying where it is until a better target rears its ugly head.

^^ admission of hipocrisy. 2) why not change the vote here? if its the pot calling the kettle black, then why not just self vote? what is your vote accomplishing here?

As far as this whole "RNG IS TEH BAD!" vs "NUH UH!" debate goes. It's silly. And pointless. I was witness to this just awful game over on Myth-Weavers where a good many pages had devolved into some type of "statistics as the best way to hunt scum" debate that was mind-numbingly painful. Not to mention the guy espousing the view that randomly picking targets was a good way to hunt wound up as scum (at least, I'm pretty sure that's how it shook out). So any discussion that closely resembles that (in this case, the whole RNG thing) makes me wary. And anyone that argues too hard for RNG as a good way to scum hunt is immediately scummy in my eyes (can't help it. gut reaction).

^^ this is a complete misrep of the conversation. noone was arguing that "rng is a good way to hunt scum".

but overall I think if scum is paranoid about being found out due to their initial vote, they would just refrain from voting until more substance showed up

3) ^^ do you see how this correlates to your own behavior?

I'm not sure if Killer is scum or a VI, but either way, it's hard to say the lynch is undeserved, given his actions. With the votes piling up the way that they did, and the quickhammer being dropped, I'm inclined to think that Killer will flip town. Assuming he does, we definitely need to look closer at some of the people on that wagon during the upcoming Night phase, and grill em come Day Two. Even if he flips scum, I wouldn't be surprised if his scum buddy (buddies?) bussed him, so it would still probably be a good idea to look at the people on the wagon.

4) do you think anyone off the wagon is scummy at all, or needs to be looked at? you are basically saying that you don't like the wagon regardless of the flip. is the wagon more or less scummy now?

Don_johnson: Leaning town

Benmage: Ehh...could go either way

Lewarcher: Leaning town

Gaylord: Scum. Needs to be lynched.

Teamsleep: Null

Hoala/Captain: Town

Hell: Unsure

Mafia: Unsure

Lurconis: Leaning scum

Sleuth: Leaning scum

^^ compared to:

killerX029 (7): teamsleep, Lurconis, Mafiafixed, Hellhound1, don_johnson, killerX029, Gaylord Focker,

so you have 3 scum reads at this point, 2 of whom were on the wagon. 5) please expand on the lurconis read.

Lew was one of my stronger town reads, and ben was null leaning scummy, but after the role fishing done by both, now I'm not so sure. Will have to go back and see if anything major sticks out from either player.

6) when was ben "leaning scum" for you? i don't recall you commenting on or contributing to my case against him. in fact, you haven't mentioned him before except for your earlier read of "could go either way"...

I know Sleuth needs to speak up or get replaced.

I know I don't have much ground to stand on in this matter, but Lurconis hasn't said much more than one or two lines a post (and only two or three posts in that time period) in the past four or five pages (well, pages according to my page layout. I'm not sure if this site allows you to change posts per page or not. Not something I generally look into. I tend to leave things at default). Will go back earlier and see if any of his other posts stick out at me.

a giant fence sit with a "hey, lets attack the low content players." this is classic scum behavior imo.

vote: jamftw

please answer the questions.

[don_johnson]

Lets massclaim quickly before it breaks the flow.

i think we agreed today is most likely not lylo, what do you see as the benefits here? set-up isn't open.

day 1- killerX029 (7): teamsleep, Lurconis,

Mafiafixed

, Hellhound1,

don_johnson

,

killerX029, Gaylord Focker

, (L-0)
Sleuth (2):

2birds1stone

, JAMFTW,
Hellhound1 (2): Captain Haoala, Sleuth,
Teamsleep (1): Benmage,
Benmage (1): chkflip,

day 2-

Gaylord Focker

(6): teamsleep, JAMFTW, Benmage,

Mafiafixed

, lewarcher82,

don_johnson

,

ugh. sleep, lurconis, and hellhound. at least one scum there according to basic VCA theory. sleep being the only carry over to day 2. neither wagon

needed

help, however, which makes this a bit dicey. scum could easily be hiding. i like my jam vote. going to have another look at ben and lew. i like the way town seems to be divided into camps today.

I still feel Hellhound is scummy and want to know why he hasn't posted here when he has been active today in two other games but didn't come into this thread.

is there a case against him? if so, can you point me to it?

Jamftw seems to be coming from just a new player standpoint, i say this cause I could see myself saying some of the same things. If you want i can explain why on a couple of your points but if you would rather I wait until Jam answers them that is fine as well.

i wouldn't mind if you answer for him, and perhaps, if it gets colder later, you could lend him your jacket. then you guys can drive up to "lookout point" and make out in the back of your convertible.[/sarcasm]

like i said: camps.

[don_johnson]

The 2nd one isn't so much a case as it is an important yet unanswered question.

I can't believe you didn't see Lurc's case. Skimming?

original case isn't all that solid. the quote wall reads more like a book report than an analysis. summarizing a players actions and then labeling them scummy is poor form. the only part where analysis comes in is here:

You originally wanted a teamsleep vote first over gay. That seems to me like you knew they would both be town and wanted the one who seemed less scum at the time voted first to keep around another potential mislynch for the future.

but i don't see the relevance here. hound voted sleep to start the day. this is just an assumtpion that he was stringing lynches. theres no basis here. refresh my memory? wasn't it sleep who made the slip? and the follow-up contradiction? it seemed to me(and still does) that it is entriely feasible for sleep to be scum independent of gaylord and not vcice versa. i think we covered this yesterday as well.

i like the way town seems to be divided into camps today.

Is this sarcastic?

no. generally players start to congregate into camps to set the stage for lategame. with no scum lynched, i think it is more plausible for scum to be sequestering themselves in one camp. i think we are more likely to see desperate bussing at this stage than calculated bussing. that is important to remember for future analysis. i think "camps" greatly increases towns chances for a win.

i think we agreed today is most likely not lylo

Where is this? Or did you say it because you know it isn't? HMM?

And seeing that no quicklynch has happened I think it's safe to say we are NOT at lylo.

By my calculations we have 2 mislynches remaining before game over...(3rd being a scum win).

as we have no evidence for a third party, we should be 6 vs 3, meaning we have 1 last ML

. However, one cannot exclude the remote possibility of 4 scum in this game, in which case we woud be on lylo.

I don't accept 4 scum.. I asked before, I'm new to the 13 minis but 4 scum seems OP. Do you have any precedents of 4 scum??

Anywhose 3 scum 6 town. Is indeed 1 mislynch before lylo. Considering in lylo we'd have to lynch successfully 3 (somethin ive never seen)we really need to make today count.

5-4. Town/scum would mean we're in lylo now. But I would imagine a powerful town,

and we have no evidence to suggest that

.

Alright. We do need to start lynching scum. It's imperative, though I doubt the "four scum" scenario.

grasp at straws much?

[don_johnson]

emp: can you point to the ben "slip"?

[don_johnson]

Gahhhh!

Everything else said that we might or might not be at lylo. Mine was the only one which explicitly said that I believe we are not at lylo. But I'll let that pass.

you seem to be ignoring the italicized portions of my post. 4 different players agreeing that

there is no evidence

to suggest we are in lylo, is equal to me saying "we agree this is

most likely not

lylo."

Even if it's a poor case, it's a case nonetheless. You behaved like there wasn't any, and asked Lurc for it.

i didn't behave like there

wasn't

. i asked for clarification. the "case" is not substantial imo, so i wanted to see what lurc had to say. are you in the habit of answering questions not directed at you?

If you had seen it (and it appears you haven't), why didn't you simply respond to it instead of asking for a case against Hellhound?

already answered. i don't have a photographic memory and the case didn't stick out in my mind as a significant post, so i saw no reason to respond at the time. i just posted a case on jam and lurc brushed it off and reiterated his stance on hound. so i asked for clarification. if thats all he has on hound, i think the jam case may be better(still waiting on a response). but whatevz. lurc wants to answer for jam and you want to answer for lurc. camps.

Most of all, I voted him for avoiding this game. I think this screams noobscum.

why noobscum as opposed to noobtown?

[don_johnson]

Do you think noobtown would avoid the game? Honest question, not rhetorical.

i think you have to look at the circumstances. i have seen scum and town be guilty of "avoidance" regardless of experience level. it was noted that hound posted in two other games. were these posts of substance? what stage are these games in? unfortunately, these questions cannot be answered as ongoing game discussion is against the rules. but nothing stops us all from looking at these other games ourselves and making a decision. so i will do that. i take it from your answer that you feel there is a distinct difference between noobscum and noobtown? you stated that hound was "very" active elsewhere. i find that i myself can very rarely be "very" active in more than one game at the same time. i often dvote particular blocks of time to particular games. but i will go look.

[don_johnson]

Not familiar with the site...is it so radically different than here? 10-15 games and still newb? Playing the newbcard?

^^ in reference to jam.

I dont see DJ's “case” on JAM convincing whatsoever.

and yet you call jam on some of the same shit.

With no scum dead, why would they bus?

exactly my point. reading is tech.

[don_johnson]

I dont like jams answers. They read generic, but also fit the bill of poor town. I already pointed out the dissonance between what ben posts and what ben wants you to think in regards to jam. Makes ben a more solid scum read over jamftw.

unvote, vote ben

I'll move back to jam if necessary. Do not see the hound case, but would like to see more effort from the slot. Defscum if ben flips town.

[don_johnson]

Lew: judge my content, not my activity. Cant always hover by my comp. Your read on me seems very arbtrary and gets sketchier the more you discuss my meta. Is there a particular game you are referencing?

mod: can we get a votecount?

You all seem content to fling suspicion elsewhere while camping votes on hound. Considering I am spearheading other cases I would argue that despite my post count I am probably one of the more "active" players. I think ben lynch is good, and the more people dance around it, the better it gets imo.

Lurc: I think its obv why bentown=houndscum. Do you think i'm wrong?

[don_johnson]

speaking of activity... anyone seen teamsleep?

back home now and dinner date with the misses tonight. i have monday through wednesday off, but monday is the holiday. if you have any questions for me just post them in a concise manner and i will address them. ben seems to be accusing me of "dodging", lew seems to be questioning my activity(while providing little analysis himself) and we have an entire team of

actual

lurkers. and noone seems to want to kick it up a notch with a vote. but whatevz, mylo, lylo, j-lo, shit ain't gonna get done if you don't do shit.

[don_johnson]

on our way out. team is to be replaced. better than lurking i guess. its pretty sad when empking is more active than half of the players in a game.again, lew, if you have questions just ask. calling me out for activity when you're watching from the sidelines is poor form.

[don_johnson]

Ok. Long day amd just found my oldest cat dead.in a cabinet. I will post from my home comp tomorrow.

Emp: you are presenting your case well, but I dont think massclaim is the way to go. Ill ezpand tomorrow.

Lew: please give me your current read on lurconis. Be as detailed as possible.

Jam: you seem to have faded into the bckground. Please post current reads.

Christine. Welcome and thanks. Will exchange with you tomorrow.

[don_johnson]

christine: read on jamftw? thank you. thread has hit a slow patch. i'll follow up tomorrow or wednesday. i need answers to my questions anyways.

[don_johnson]

And then scum blocks and/or kills our power roles thus neutering the town. Hows about we let lew return? I hav outstanding questions for him and christine. We are better off lynching the scummiest player who doesnt claim an uncc'd power role than we are mass claiming and giving scum full control of their destiny. Not sure if I got that double negative right, but you know what I mean.

[don_johnson]

the argument of "massclaim increases our chances of hitting scum" only holds water when compared to the chances of lynching scum at random. we are not lynching at random. we have a few particularly scummy players to choose from and i think its a much better play to lynch from that pool barring uncc'd pr claims than it is to test the waters with a mass claim which may only let the public in on what those of us paying attention may already know. i'm willing to compromise on the lynch, i just prefer benmage. the case on hound isn't terribad, and they could easily be scum together. i don't agree with the entirety of 433, but i like how its presented. i am confused as to why you have jam as town, but whatevz. i really want christine to answer my question and lew to update his lurc read with an explanation. mass claim is not a good idea imo, but if majority votes it then thats what we'll do.

mod: votecount please? ya know, if you just post one on every page, i won't have to keep asking...

[don_johnson]

a) you shouldn't be lynching at random at this point.

b) lets get hypothetical and say 6 town 3 scum

2 town pr, 1 scum pr

scum pr manages to claim a believable claim. i.e. doc, cop, trakcer, etc.

we clear all three because we have no idea what scum power might be and 3 town power roles is not obscene. so for instance: town claims doc/cop, scum claims trakcer. we eliminate those three players from the lynch pool.

lynch pool is 4 town, 2 scum

same exact odds of lynching at random except now town power is completely exposed. maybe cop has an innocent on someone? sure. maybe that someone has gf role. too many variables here to think this is going to benefit us any more than it will hurt us.

who do you think is scummier between benmage and hellhound?

[don_johnson]

we're talking about unknowns. massclaiming because you are too lazy to read the thread is not a good idea. i get what you are saying, but i disagree about its helpfulness. if a pr

wanted

to claim, they probably already would have. forcing them out is poor form imo.

[don_johnson]

i don't see how changing one's mind is "scummy". especially given the context of the discussion. i don't know why you guys aren't voting ben. but whatevz.

[don_johnson]

if we both vote hellhound he will be at L-1 and he will have to claim. how bout we try that instead?

[don_johnson]

vote: hellhound

that's L-1. noone hammer. please claim.

FoS: Lew and Christine

answering questions is tech.

[don_johnson]

No.

unvote, vote benmage

[don_johnson]

Jamscum back on top.

We never agreed to massclaim. Emp started it on his own. Funny how you wont vote for massclaim, but you'll vote me for not claiming prematurely. You do realize that all this is going to do is give scum a roadmap to victory, right? I'll claim under threat of hammer. Not before.

Now jam. Who is scummier: hound or ben and why?

[don_johnson]

Or scumhunt. Whatevz.

[don_johnson]

quickie, just lost my post:

lew: i fos'd you and chris to get your attention. i asked you to update your lurc read(which you haven't) and i asked chris to expand on her jam read(which she has summarily ignored). i would like both questions answered.

chris: i am fine with a benmage or hellhound lynch and agree that they could be partners. so who do you think is scummier? i also notice that you tie me to ben with "defensiveness". pretty easy considering i made a case out of ben's defensiveness, but could you please explain where i was "defensive"? thanks.

benmage: if you want to read my refusal to claim as a pr softclaim, have at it. whats your case on lurc again?

[don_johnson]

whatevz chris. please put your money where your mouth is and vote benmage. let's get this wagon rolling.

i'll be v/la for the weekend.

if ben flips scum and i am here tomorrow i'll be more than happy to deal with your suspicion. if he flips town i think we'll still be in good shape.

i see you did update the jam read recently, but i am curious as to why you seem to call him out here:

JAMFTW shows up - you seriously get on Sleuth for not talking that much (which he isn't) yet you are barely talking at all? Really? Pot calling Kettle black, much?

here:

JAM does provide a good reason for jumping on the wagon, but really? I don't see enough of a reason to vote, just ask questions.

and then of course here:

Jam in 166 is sitting on the fence.

but end with this:

I am going to go with inexperience.

is the "inexperience" in reference only to that situation, or are you applying that to his entire game?

in any case, i'd like to see more ben votes. if anyone has questions for me, please post them in a readable fashion and i can try and check in to anser them, otherwise i will be back in here on monday morning.

[don_johnson]

gah. i see i've been steamrolled here.

claim: nurse

was hoping to draw the nk or doc protect tonight but whatevz. the wagon is scummy as hell and i'm fine lynching the L-1 voter. the insistence makes emp look much worse, but it is difficult for me to believe any of you are town.

we're leaving in a couple hours so i won't be on until late tonight, if that and gone all day tomorrow. pretty happy with lurc and lew at this point. oh wellz...

[don_johnson]

in between services today. emp, your presenting wifom and the only way to refute it is with the same. vt is a claim that "wouldn't get counter claimed" and fits the same playstyle i referenced(i.e. draw the nk/protect gambit). so why nurse over vt? also, scum in general will want to get cc'd in this situation as it reveazls power roles for nk and creates general confusion(i.e. "two docs seems possible,etc.")

i don't see how "rolefishing" is a plausible accusation

at all

, considering as scum i could simply claim doc or cop and draw out a cc. the idea of the rolefish accusation is scummy and unfounded as it simply makes no sense. how does a back-up claim from a player explicitly opposed to mass claim constitute rolefishing?

lurc: nurse is uncommon imo. this is the third time i have seen the role in my career. it does not guarantee the existence of a doctor, but both times i have seen it, and all times i have seen a deputy(which is probably around 2 or 3), the actual role existed.

i still see no reason to move from ben. i would like jam/cap to expand on their rolefish accusations. i think emp is a fine #2 lynch at this point. hound seems to have dissappeared once the pressure came off. still no worthwhile contribution. but whatevz. i have more services to attend and will try to check in later but cannot guarantee. we already have two claims on the table, so if we get momentum back to hounds wagon i am fine with that as well.

[don_johnson]

Haha. True. But thats not what you said. :/

[don_johnson]

It still doesnt invalidate my response to your original statement. And considering I am at L-2 with a player threatening to hammer, your new argument doesnt hold much water. So bringing up a new argument to try and invalidate my response yo your initial argument is underhanded. And the "why not claim a more useful or common pr" argument still stands anyway. But whatever. Im in the car now so im not going to have time for this back and forth.

[don_johnson]

Lolz. Vt accomplishes the same end. Try doing something useful.

[don_johnson]

Fuck this.

unvote, vote: don_johnson

Ben/emp/hound/jam. Most likely 3 scum in there. Good luck guys.

[don_johnson]

unvote

Your lack of logical progress is noted. you are combining my responses with arguments they are not in response to. More when im home.

[don_johnson]

unvote

Your lack of logical progress is noted.

you are combining my responses with arguments they are not in response to.

More when im home.

What?

simple version:

you stated

argument a

.

i responded with

response x.

you then quoted

response x

and stated that it didn't satisfy

argument b

.

response x

was not meant to satisfy an argument that had not been presented, but you quoted it as if it was, and thus attempted to discredit it.

in any case, your argument is entirely wifom as is any response i offer. the fact is, you are either town who genuinely thinks i'm scum and is pushing for my lynch, or you are scum pushing for a pr mislynch to save yourself an nk. the fact that you seem to be disguising your unfounded opinion as a "logical" argument is scummy.

[don_johnson]

vote benmage

Eager to see ben v chris. Should be good for laughs.
Lew: I agree on hound/ben, and lurcs new question is apt. Lurc is actually becoming a town read for me. But whatevz.

Ill be adjusting back to night shift over the next few days, so my posting patterns will most likely be changing.

Cap: frustration. This thread was active with players pushing a mislynch while everyone else lurked and I was just trying to keep up during an emotional weekend. Emp is an infuriating type of player.

[don_johnson]

No. I wasnt. But thanks.

[don_johnson]

Ahh. The "why me?" Defense. Priceless.

Someone hammer him before he gets home from work.

[don_johnson]

nice shot lew.

Don for clearly false claiming (Lew's death confirms that to everyone else, right).

lolz. please expand on this one. how does the confirmation of a second killing faction "confirm" my claim as false?

investigative role should only be claiming with pertinent info.

vote: no lynch

[don_johnson]

are you not familiar with how no lynch is done? no discussion. if there is an investigative role, the only reason to out it at this time is with positive results(i.e. conclusive inno's on living players or a guilty).

to vaguely answer set-up: i have a back up doc role. this game also has a doc/protective and multiple killers. so i don't think the set-up is jank.

unless we're lynching, then i don't think it fruitful to discuss anything further or give any reads. cap, lurc, and chris can weigh in.

[don_johnson]

actually, no lynch is done without discussion. discussion aids scum. never seen a no lynch with discussion. its poor form.

[don_johnson]

silly cap. we should be voicing our support or lack thereof for a no lynch. i'll take your post as a "lack thereof". if chris and lurc want to lynch i'll post my reads

and

my set-up speculation. where is your VCA?

[don_johnson]

If you were scum you would've "hammered".

^^ explain.

if we're lynching, then i agree to massclaim. i'd rather a random selcted order. but whatevz, mines already on the table.

[don_johnson]

jam is scum. no doubt. set-up is as i imagined.

cap: any useful results from night 2?

otherwise, doc protects tracker, tracker targets a vt. gg. the fact that chris is "looking through notes" has me thinking shes final scum here. but we can't lose, so whatevz...

[don_johnson]

and

vote: jamftw

i hope you guys see now how an early massclaim had the potential to neuter us.

[don_johnson]

lol. of course you don't. both investigative roles are double weak(odd/even and not cop). scum would have had a road map to victory. i don't see any way that jam is town here, which means he's either a jk or a rb. early mass claim lets scum block the active power role and kill the protective twice in a row. its basic math i think. but whatevz. live in your bubble. serious question: how old are you?

[don_johnson]

Ah! My apologies. This is what happens when I get too little sleep. Well, I am VT. Anyone else ready to claim?

emp: vt
chris: vt
dj: nurse
lurc: doc
cap: even night track
jam: scum

i think thats it. unless someone wants to change their claim?

[don_johnson]

Pretend we lynched you instead of Ben yesterday. We would have lost last night in that case. Yes in this particular situation we got lucky and lynched a scumbag. You can't call your way better just because of the base case situation.

i spearheaded a case against scum and prevented what could have been a disastrous mass claim, thus placing us in a no lose scenario today. i feel justified in call ing my way better.

If we mass claimed yesterday and presuming everyone claimed the same thing then we'd've lynched the roleblocker yesterday (rather than today) and then be in the same situation we're in now just swapping a goon for the obvious RB. You honestly don't think that's better? Really?

?? today is not yesterday. no guarantee scum would have claimed the same role at that stage(not mylo/lylo). vig shot would most likely not have occurred, and doc would be dead, leaving nurse exposed to be killed and tracker exposed to be blocked tonight. so yes, i honestly think my play is better than yours. if you're town, which is not guaranteed. you've done nothing this game but defend flipped scum, random vote on day 3, vote to lynch someone who was not your top scumread to avoid voting flipped scum, and advocate massclaim when it was unnecessary, then vote a claimed pr in mylo before a massclaim while attempting to discredit it based on a flip which actually bolstered it while also attempting to discuss a no lynch. that about right? so yeah, the case against you is pretty damn good. the case against chris has some elements of scum defense, but rests more on PoE because the final scum is one of the two of you. you are playing in a bubble, but you can't win as scum. so whatevz...

[don_johnson]

only in a vaccuum. we're in the real world. jam lynch yesterday is not guaranteed, nor is his claim. benmage lynch is also not guaranteed. but if you want to go on thinking that way i don't have an issue with it. pretty much anyone can say "well if everything happened perfectly, then my plan would have worked 100%." i bow to your incredible wisdom.

[don_johnson]

emp: i disagree with (1) and (2). the ben lynch went through due to the persistence of the minority who worked to sway the majority. it was not inevitable in any form. and yes, lynching me would have been a terrible play which is why i found my wagon scummy as all get out.

cap: going into night i assumed we had something like doc/cop/nurse, but seeing the flip i imagined the set-up with an opposite night watcher/tracker type role. an outright cop in addittion to odd night vig would have been a bit overpowered imo. in answer to emp's earlier question i was going to post:

doc, nurse, odd night vig, even night tracker/watcher, roleblock/rolecop, gf/goon, goon. i have seen plenty of gf roles in games without cops, as they are often used to merely alert scum to investigative roles(i.e. gf generally stays home at night). in any case, the set-up is near exact to what i imagined. i was slightly worried about my role being a red herring, but like i said before, both other times i have seen it was with a doc in set-up.

[don_johnson]

Assuming I make it through the Day, of course. Which currently looks unlikely.

lolz. if you are town then not making it through the day would be gg. you may need to go back to the noob forums.

[don_johnson]

unvote

i thought it was L-2?

emp: even night-something or doc. if its mylo, a 1 v 1 benefits scum. other than me or ben? hound comes to mind. you. christine. cap. mafia is not a static game. you seem to be implying the ben lynch was somehow inevitable here? townie persistence made it happen. my wagon only took off because scum was pushing it. you yourself stated you were "lynching at random". so stating that certain lynches were above others is only true towards the end of the day and post flip. this game could have gone much differently if we hadn't done things the way we did.

cap: i see no reason to announce your target.

[don_johnson]

scum has a limited number of choices tonight. advertising your action

only

aids their cause as does further discussion regarding this subject. same reason i was against mass claim. only way you don't see tomorrow is if lurc is scum. and if lurc is scum, then this game is probably over. so i don't see it. which means you are going to live to tomorrow and get night results unless jam's claim was some wild gambit to protect his buddy who is the real roleblocker. but again, jam has come off time and again as a noob, and noobscum with his latest flurry of air karate. so i'm guessing he's the right lynch. trust me on this. when you're on the basketball court and you stare at the guy your going to pass to, the chances of the ball getting intercepted go up a large percentage. discuss it with your other head and let scum make their move.

[don_johnson]

vote: jamftw

[don_johnson]

That was my guess. The case on emp looks good on paper, but something kept nagging at me about jams claim. I realized it was the inexperience. I think scumemp would have covered claims in the qt, so our scum had to have some measure of noob.

vote: christine

Scum wont be quickhammering this unless its.cap and im fine tipping.my hat if cap engineered a gambit of this magnitude.

[don_johnson]

quick points before i'm off to sleep.

Really? I was kinda surprised he didn't get lynched Day 2.

odd. the only thing scummy about ts was the "slip" incident. i think gl's flip is why his slot fell off the radar.

686 ia AtE.

Well, given that you lot fussed at me to hurry up, I skimmed through most of Day 2 and the beginning of Day 3.

somewhat of an appeal to authority here. "its your fault i haven't been able to produce."

I did not Vote for a No Lynch. I simply removed my vote. And if you both agreed he was being scummy, then why weren't you going after him? Why didn't you check him at night? I am guessing you are claiming cop role since you vetted Empking, so... why didn't you check out the so scummy Benmage? Why didn't you vote for him at the start of Day 2? Or, on Day 1?

cap is town. confirmed. this line of questioning is a distraction.

i agree with the "pandering to town." add to that line you quoted, post 666:

I must agree, though, if CH is the scum, I applaud you for the gambit.

^^ this post is almost 2 hours after caps post. there is already a vote on chris. cap scum would have already won the game by now. chris is simply echoing my earlier sentiment. only it no longer applies. i consider this pandering moreso.

Are you saying that Benmage was above all suspicion? I disagree. CC and I both felt that Benmage has been scummy since D1.

lew and myself did most of the legwork on the benwagon, starting on day 2 i believe? but regardless, chris' only contribution to the benwagon was attempting to tie me to ben. this was only done during the day when ben suspicion was already gaining support, and it dissappeared after the ben flip. but now its back because chris is in the hotseat. bravo.

But why would I attack Benmage? The only one of the two confirmed scum that was really getting glared at was Jam. Why not sacrifice the person that was already under suspicion?

no. this is false. jam had very little suspicion at that time. plus, jam flipped roleblocker. more valuable than goon. plus, you say "two confirmed scum", which again points to the fact that you know we are

all

town.

671 is another giant AtE.

cap: not sure how to answer "why is dj town?" i think my play speaks for itself. we are here as a direct result of my influence in this game. i have tried to keep us working together as a unit, and i have been actively scumhunting the entire game. plus, i really think the inexperience is telling at this stage of the game. a more experienced player would not have let jam claim jk the way he did. there was something off about that and it makes perfect sense now that chris is confirmed imo. if you have any specific questions let me know, otherwise i think i have been as concise as possible.

[don_johnson]

Joined : July 26, 2011

i believe it has come up somewhere in convo as well. but judging by this join date and some of her statements throughout the game, i'd say she is inexperienced.

p-edit: thats game. well done.

[don_johnson]

emp: are you a fucking ninja?

[don_johnson]

whew. that was a nailbiter. gg guys. i just about shit myself when jam claimed jk. we had talked about it on day 1 in the qt but i assumed he would pick up on the general vibe and cc someone or claim vanilla. oh wellz. live and learn.

[don_johnson]

I still don't know why I was lynched but what evs. Gg.

hey thats my line!

but seriously, in retrospect i should probably have just acted uber scummy and taken the lynch. nurse claim was a huge gamble, and i was only bussing you hard because i thought you had a gf role. so i thought i'd get super town points for lynching you. i think if we had focused a little more we could have gotten away with another mislynch, but it seemed like momentum was shifting and i was starting to get worried about night results, so i just kind of figured one of us had to go. i thought you played really well though. chris was the only one who picked up on the 1 v 1 gambit lew suggested.

jam: lesson learned i hope. you did a nice job of flying under the radar though. the claim really sealed your fate. i'd be happy to scum it up with you and ben again sometime.

lew: nice shot.

i'm ok sharing our qt if you guys are.

ant: your voting system is a bit scum sided. lynch number should be half the number of living players plus one. at least thats how i've always seen it. otherwise i think you modded well and set-up was balanced i think(plenty of room for an off the cuff fake claim). also, you can never have too many votecounts. engineering mislynches ain't easy.