TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win

[Banshee]

@Junpei:

Just the opposite, actually. I didn't realise Pinky had seen the same thing about Izak's jester comments until I was doing an ISO on Izak. I read the game twice when I replaced in but even so I missed plenty and that's one of the things I missed.

I know that Meransiel was lurking, but I still don't believe that announcing that you're planning to lurk and that you're not going to post is the sort of move scum would make. I don't want to get into the WIFOM aspect of that, but it's just drawing too much heat and too much attention and I don't think Izak's attacks on Meransiel are well justified in this regard. What Meran was doing made him useless and annoying, but it didn't make him scum imo.

[Junpei]

I know that Meransiel was lurking, but I still don't believe that announcing that you're planning to lurk and that you're not going to post is the sort of move scum would make. I don't want to get into the WIFOM aspect of that, but it's just drawing too much heat and too much attention and I don't think Izak's attacks on Meransiel are well justified in this regard. What Meran was doing made him useless and annoying, but it didn't make him scum imo.

But when pressured, Meransiel squeezed out of hibernation lurking and posted thoughts and reads. This doesn't make him any more suspicious to you?

[Rodion]

@Meran:

I think it was you who was appealing to the vig to shoot Izak, yet you've expressed that you don't want him lynched (working on memory here, please correct me if I'm wrong). What's the difference between lynching and vigging Izak in your view? Why that distinction?

*raises hand*
Yes, I have. You see, the point of a lynch is looking for who is against, who is biding his time, who is pushing too hard. Relational tells. However, since we ALL agree that izak is scummy and useless, we ALL condone his death. Ergo, there's not relational tells to speak of.

[Banshee]

@Junpei:
Not really. If someone announces that they aren't going to do something unless they are pressured, and then are pressured, and they do something, that's all consistent.

@Rodion:
If you're not answering questions directed to you, please refrain from answering for other people. Ironically, if I'd asked you directly you wouldn't have answered, so butt out now, please.

[Meransiel]

@Meran:

I think it was you who was appealing to the vig to shoot Izak, yet you've expressed that you don't want him lynched (working on memory here, please correct me if I'm wrong). What's the difference between lynching and vigging Izak in your view? Why that distinction?

Asked and answered. If he's scum there's no relational tells to be gained by lynching him, as everyone thinks he's scummy (the fact that some think andrew/silver are more scummy than him is irrelevant). A vig kill is much more straightforward and simple. Lynches should be reserved for people where there is some opposition and some vagueness.

[David Xanatos]

Major disadvantage to that.. if you direct the Vig, and you're targetting Town, the Scum won't care. If you're directing the Vig and targetting Scum, the Scum will attempt to interfere with the kill if they can.. you're giving up a 100% chance of getting rid of him in favour of something resembling a logic diagram.. :/

[Banshee]

@Mera:

So basically your argument there is the same as mine regarding Zinger when I entered the game, which is that it's not as useful to lynch because lynching gains no information other than the simple flip. Ideally you'd want something that would give more information.

What do you think we gain from a Silver lynch in this regard? Do you think that his semi-gambit Day One has muddied the waters surrounding his lynch? Most people have indicated that they think Silver is at least somewhat scummy. If degree doesn't matter, as hinted at in your last post, why is Silver a better lynch?

[PeregrineV]

I'll be out of town and posting/reading will be null/minimal during this time.

V/LA Friday Aug 12 to Mon Aug 15

[Meransiel]

@Banshee:

1. Yeah, to an extent, the extent being that Zinger didn't have to die at all, but whatever.
2. There are people saying Silver is town. The pony guy is the first that comes to mind, but there are others, though I don't recall them right now.

@David Xanatos: Think about it from this perspective:

I don't agree with Zel1nk's reads. I don't think he will choose good targets by himself. Anyway, said targets have similar chances of being scum/town as izak, so it's the same in that respect. Except it's not the same, because.....

Who would harm the town more if he is vigged and flips town?
1. Izak
or
2. Everybody else?

There's also the option of the vig not vigging. Which is similar to the vig vigging izak and izak being protected! .

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, large catchup post incoming

–

Here are my current strongest scum reads:

Pappums

– My stance hasn’t changed. I re-ISOed them to see if their performance had changed.

Lack of significant scum-hunting. The only ‘wagon’ they initiated both days was Chevre. All their other votes have been following along. The ISO still chock full to the brim with “Look, I’m all wise” posts that make the slot seem active but are not scum-hunting. Finally the back and forth with me at the end of Day 1 where they did everything in their power to discredit my opinions with rhetoric (Lulz, MoI is stupid). Fonz … feel free to mark this down as a “I should be playing better than this” condemnation aka Thor if you like.

ThreeisFrench / HipAddict slot

– Absolute lurking and staying out of the limelight Day 1 and Day 2 pre-flake combined with the reaction to me calling them scum - “You have NOTHING” isn't a Town Driven thought process.

Andrew

– Clearly the more scummy of the Neighborizors, IMO. His explanations continue to make no logical sense in relation to each other. Finally the position the other Neighborizor has taken in QT regarding Andrew would be suicide for Scum who knew the odds of two Town Neighborizors are next to nil. Andrew, on the other hand, occasionally clings to the concept that they might be both Town. Lastly his attempt to cloud the waters with the whole “What if Vezok did go somewhere, who would you believe” was scummy at all get out.

Silver

– Hydra dissonance Day 1 regarding wagon / “I don’t understand the wagon” combined with his “Vote me not Zinger” and subsequent not following through on that stance from a game-play perspective. Tack on some of his posts today (his exchange with DavidX / Junpei on page 69) and I have a recipie for “No Change in Read”

Castle Bravo

– just reading his posts today on gut alone I’d wagon him if any of my other scum reads were not viable wagons. Some of this originates from the fact he is also a pretty clear Alt.

I have some other floating around but these are the strongest ATM.

I have a whole list of “flying under the Radar” players. Clearly not all of them are scum but given the volume scum are definitely hiding out here in some fashion –

vezokpiraka
PeregrineV
drmyshottyizsik
ZeL1nK
izakthegoomba
Mysterio
Jackelope
Oversoul

--

I trust MoI enough to say andrew is a good lynch, although anyone who stops the silver lynch is essentially a good lynch as far as im concerned here.

Why do you trust my judgement? Clearly we have clear differences – I see Silver as scum and I think your stance on Zinger Day 1 was either scummy or stupid. We have no completed games together (although you are a clear Alt).

I still really dislike this silver wagon, that one feels really scum driven and dismisses a few decent town tells as simply WIFOM.

Since vollkan isn’t here I’ll take up the banner and say what needs to be said –

'Town tells' are inherently WIFOM. Unless your opinion is said player is so incompetent that they can’t fake behavior than anything that is inherently a ‘Town tell’ is at best Null, IMO. Chesskid is a prime example … he’s proven as scum to be willing and able to replicate ‘Town tells’ to avoid lynches and he certainly isn’t ever going to win an award for good play.

--

Though there is a perfectly rational basis for neighborizing scum reads. The question is, does it appear he was trying to scumhunt or not?

No, the question is why would you bother to Neighborize a scum read (even one that was relational to another players not in the QT) if you had previously stated that you wanted to keep “Town Integrity” in the QT.

--

By no stretch of the imagination could Zinger's play be considered pro-town or understandable town play. I challenge anyone who will argue that it should have been obvious that he was a pro-town role based on his play; I accept that others may have seen things I didn't, but it wasn't OBVIOUS.

You also don’t lynch a claimed Town Power-role Day 1 of a Large theme without a counter-claim. That’s Mafia 101. The people who pushed at him despite that deserve scrutiny.

@MagnaOfIllusion: Based on the private discussion, are you certain enough that Andrew is scum that you'd be willing to vote him, or is it more a hunch than a firm read?

I think I explained above but yes I would certainly be willing to do so.

--

1. In case 1: Obviously, he would play it safe and neighborize HIS OWN TEAM. Which means that if andrew is scum then MoI is scum. Which is a massive leap that I will not make.

You inadvertently make what might be a strong point here.

Andrew took some time making his Neighborize decision. If scum don’t have Daytalk (and they did not in Superhero Mafia while the Neighborhood did) then he might have waffled on that decision.

I’ll have to mull that over.

[Banshee]

Overall, I got the feeling izak's

noooooottttt really

trying to scumhunt. At least to me it felt like he's content with lynching Zinger today, and that's grounds for not scumhunting the rest of the day. Since he wouldn't want to lynch anyone else, there must be no point. I'd looove thoughts on izak, guys. I still believe Zinger is a wonderful lynch today, and his flip would give me some insight on izak. But I felt this point was note-worthy and definitely worth bringing up.

Do you think that Zinger's flip gave you insight on izak? If so, what insight did you gain?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I forgot this which I posted in the Mystery Neighborhood QT -

vezokpiraka 55
Rainbowdash 57
David Xanatos 60
Pinky and the Brain 55
VifamJunpei 65
Rodion 60
Leonshade 64
ThreeIsFrench 55
killerjester 55
silverbullet999 60

These are vollkan's non-50 reads from the last post he made with them before he died. Vollkan died for a reason since both claimed PowerRoles (Zel1nk and Junpei) who claimed Day 1 are still alive.

Maybe scum was worried about protection.
Maybe one or both of them are actually scum.
Maybe they had a PR read on vollkan.
Maybe vollkan was on to something.

It may be some sort of combination of the above. But it would be foolish to let this bit of possible info go quietly away.

[Meransiel]

MoI, how important in your suspicion of Pappums is his tunneling on Chevre (now Chevre's slot)? Cause, well IMO anyway, Chevre's slot was scummy.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, how important in your suspicion of Pappums is his tunneling on Chevre (now Chevre's slot)? Cause, well IMO anyway, Chevre's slot was scummy.

It is at best secondary. Look at their posts regarding Chevre and decide if that is dedicated scum-hunting or just fake-hunting. I think the later, and along with their large quantity of posting of "Safe, Townie Style" posts that don't actually say anything about alignment but preach on Mafia Theory I get a solid Scum read.

[Junpei]

I don't see tunneling on Chevre since he doesn't have that many posts regarding her. I am a little uneased with the fact that all his Chevre posts are to the town, he never investigates chevre by asking any questions or posing any requests. So I certainly would say that his interaction with the whole Chevre case was scummy if I think about it. However I am not seeing tunneling, didn't he vote Zinger and I?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, having reviewed the last Mod VC I'm going to

UNVOTE: Pappums
VOTE: Silver

I still see him as scum. If he flips scum the information surrounding the Silver to Zinger wagon swing at the end of Day 1 becomes a great place to hunt scum.

[Rodion]

@rodion the qt integrety thingee was so newcomers dont mouth off. (i said that?)
i wanted to catch scum instead of having a town read that may or may not be town. so screw intergrety afterall

So wait, are you now saying you don't care about the integrity of your neighborhood?

Alright, I'm convinced.

UNVOTE: Meransiel
VOTE: Andrew

I don't like how you apparently changed your mind without previously explaining it (to the neighbourhood). If we have to pressure you before you admit that your contradiction (between keeping the QT integrity and recruiting a scum read) was simply a result of a change of mind, it gets really hard to trust you. For further reference in case you flip town here, whenever you change your mind about something be sure to state it before acting according to your new opinion.

This is bad:

1) state an opinion
2) change opinion
3) act according to new opinion

This is good:

1) state an opinion
2) change opinion
3) convincingly explain to the town (or, in this particular case to the neighbourhood) that your opinion changed and why
4) act according to the new opinion

[jasonT1981]

Day 2 Vote Count 7

Silver 8- Nero, Hipaddict, mysterio, Shotty, CHKBallin, Junpei, Mera,MOI
Izak 5 ZeL1nk, Pinky, Silver, Pappums, Rainbowdash
Andrew 5 - THAdmiral, Banshee, Killer, Izak, Rodion
Rodion 2 - Castle, Vezo
PeregrineV 1 - DavidX
Oversoul 1 -PeregrineV

Not Voting

Andrew94
Jackalope
Oversoul

With 25 alive, it takes 13 to lynch

[Meransiel]

I don't see tunneling on Chevre since he doesn't have that many posts regarding her. I am a little uneased with the fact that all his Chevre posts are to the town, he never investigates chevre by asking any questions or posing any requests. So I certainly would say that his interaction with the whole Chevre case was scummy if I think about it. However I am not seeing tunneling, didn't he vote Zinger and I?

That's what I understood from MoI anyway, I didn't ISO Pappums (or paid much attention to him for that matter). I think I will right now.

[David Xanatos]

Since the intent of my vote on Pere was to try and build pressure to make him post more content, and noone seems to be bothered, I'm going back to my previous..

UNVOTE: Peregrine
VOTE: Andrew

Already given my reasoning, back when I first voted..

[Junpei]

To everyone on the Andrew wagon: Do you think silver is more than mildly scummy?

[David Xanatos]

In honesty, I did to begin with, but frankly I keep getting the feeling he's more VI than Scum by this point..

[MagnaofIllusion]

In honesty, I did to begin with, but frankly I keep getting the feeling he's more VI than Scum by this point..

So is the only reason you are voting Andrew have to do with the dueling Neighborizor claims? Because I can't see a valid argument that says Silver is a VI on the scale of Andrew.

[killerjester]

To everyone on the Andrew wagon: Do you think silver is more than mildly scummy?

No.

Do you think that Zinger's flip gave you insight on izak? If so, what insight did you gain?

Guess who just got major townpoints! Thiiiiiiis guy!

I was a little put off by how izak parked his vote on Zinger for the day. From Zinger's flip, I don't think I got as much insight on izak as I'd have hoped.

My post was equally made to see who would bring the topic up later. But here's the answer you were looking for. I don't think izak is scum.

[David Xanatos]

That, plus his reactions to pressure since then, his general flip-flopping (Dear god I can't say that without thinking of JK Bistables now..), combined with a distinct lack of coherency to his arguments even prior to your revealing him..