Mini 1219 - Bedtime Stories Mafia - Game Over!

[Rainbowdash]

Greetings everypony! Through the element of loyalty, maybe some bravery (or arrogence), this should be wrapped up soon.

No real point in getting into the offtopic discussion here instead of staying on track with looking at both Neruz and Thomith who already have dropped a few tells each. Thomith in 10 and Neruz in 19 are both easily enough to justify wagons, but they probably are not scum together. Ponies actually ignoring both of these for periods of time is quite confusing, but Deselby grabs third pick quite solidly.

Wierd is asking the right questions to Neruz. Even if he does suspect someone a little, it should be enough to justify a vote at this stage of a game. Bigger then being afraid of throwing down a vote which someponies always are against doing for some reason that I never have quite been able to understand, Neruz is making no attempt to further investigate his read of Thomith. You want to see if a gut feeling is actually justified or not through questions and applying pressure, not saying that somepony is a little suspect and then just sitting back down.

For Thomith being off, his response to being called scum for his early comment is way too jokey and seeming nervous for what obviously is more of a RVS stage comment about him normally drawing one alignment.

Elite case? No. Its where we start this though.

Vote Neruz

[Rainbowdash]

Too jokey makes me nervous? When i get called out for "claiming" when i really was taking a jab back at hiphop for his first post, (i assume this is what you mean by "jokey" as i see no other time when i have been "jokey".)

The response seems very off to me, not something that I could have seen myself coming up with. Almost as if you didn't know if he was being serious or not so tried to play it off with a joke.

Again i will say, i don't think Neruz is scum because they didn't vote for me, Town usually want to find more than one reason to vote someone so i don't see how this is scummy.

Town usually will vote for somepony with little to no reasoning. What type of poines have you been playing with?

[Rainbowdash]

...Your use of ponies in place of people is slightly unsettling.

On a side note, Rainbowdash, it's really annoying when you refer to everybody as ponies.

You two are the ponies using the odd pronouns you know. Anyways, can we be done with theory talks now? Those are only going to get wagons started on the minority opinion pony instead of the scummiest ones, although if it gets a Thomith wagon, there is nothing wrong with that.

hiphop is really streching calling defense of Neruz a slip though, I think everypony has had town reads early on, or at very least somepony they believed was town against popular belief and therefore needed to defend. I think the defense from Thomith is actually a minor town tell given the popular concensus of most ponies that one of Neruz and Thomith are scum. When Thomith is making very few attempts to push action elsewhere in the game, attempts to detract from the other existing wagon, even in early game, is something to look at.

@WV - Please consolidate your reads more between heads. There is quite obviously disagreement between the two of you regarding Thomith and Neruz which I would like you to work out and then respond again with. When its more of a unified read from you, its going to be much easier for the rest of us to get a read on you.

I dislike the Thomith wagon, last page-ish has him leaning town. Huzzah for mid-post read changes. EB is also town. hiphop is likely opposite alignment of Neruz.

[Rainbowdash]

hiphop is really streching calling defense of Neruz a slip though, I think everypony has had town reads early on, or at very least somepony they believed was town against popular belief and therefore needed to defend.

You're saying someone thought that we were going in the wrong direction and thus needed to get us back on track?

This statement kinda confused me, so I'm asking for clarification.

Your response confuses me quite a bit too.

I see zero way to call what was posted by Thomith a scum slip, at all. If he is town, its defending a town read, which everypony should be willing to do when town reads come under attack. I see this as town defending a town read instead of scum trying to get a wagon off a partner or buy town credit. The rest is just me saying that everypony probably has been in the situation like Thomith where they have a town read on somepony who most people think is scummy, and hopefully defended it.

I think the defense from Thomith is actually a minor town tell given the popular concensus of most ponies that one of Neruz and Thomith are scum.

That could just as easily be a minor scumtell since we don't know if Thomith is scum or not.

Do you not understand how this towntell functions? When everypony starts applying a "one of two" scenario, scum being targeted will rarely react like Thomith just did and try to defend the other in the pairing. Even more rare is them competely closing doors for a vote there like he has been doing, ergo its a town tell.

When Thomith is making very few attempts to push action elsewhere in the game, attempts to detract from the other existing wagon, even in early game, is something to look at.

True, all Thomith has done so far is pretty much just defend Neruz. I guess I'm not quite getting where you want to go with this statement.

Its not something scum normally does. So its a towntell.

@WV - You are acting independantly based on assumptions of what the other will do if that even. The more together you two play, the easier it is for the rest of us to get reads from what you are doing. Im going to nip this in the tail before it gets too bad. Use your QT more.

[Rainbowdash]

And there's also fucking ponies.

Word.

If you want me to start roleplaying instead of just doing pony speak say so. But my talking and pictures are staying, not like they are distracting me in the getting stuff done department.

I see zero way to call what was posted by Thomith a scum slip, at all. If he is town, its defending a town read, which everypony should be willing to do when town reads come under attack. I see this as town defending a town read instead of scum trying to get a wagon off a partner or buy town credit. The rest is just me saying that everypony probably has been in the situation like Thomith where they have a town read on somepony who most

people

think is scummy, and hopefully defended it.

Please clarify the term "people".

I think you ponies are rubbing off on me a bit.

If it actually wasn't a shot at me which im pretty sure it was - Neruz took a random wagon early, so most ponies were reading him as scummy, Thomith disagreed and defended.

@Neruz - Explain how the exchange between Thomith and VM cannot come from town v town

Third party talk from Neruz bugs me a bit since I could nearly guarentee you that there is no third party in this game and its a great scum scare tactic to throw that in.

Going to say Thomith and EB are probably town at this point. WV jumps way up the list for attacking ponies who are defending town reads. There is asbolutely nothing wrong with defending a town read ever. Giving all the possibilites that you did really only works if you are going to argue each one has the same probability of occuring, and I may be a pony, but I know enough about the maths to say this is false. Town defends town tons, in every game town will defend town to varying degrees depending on strength of reads.

[Rainbowdash]

@Neruz - Explain how the exchange between Thomith and VM cannot come from town v town

I cannot, such absolutes do not exist in Mafia.

Fine. Explain why the exchange between Thomith and VM "probably" cannot come from town v town.

Being snide will get you nowhere.

Third party talk from Neruz bugs me a bit since I could nearly guarentee you that there is no third party in this game and its a great scum scare tactic to throw that in.

GreyICE advertised this game specifically as being the first normal game to be approved with three cult leaders. I have no idea if he was serious or just dicking around though.

Unless I fail to understand the definiton of normal, cults are not normal, and cannot exist in a normal game. I still can basically give you that "absolute" that there is no cult. Stop trying to spread paranoia.

[Rainbowdash]

Normal = we have no knowledge of setup.

Not according to the wikipedia. Normal means only certain roles can exist.

To quote

Mechanics which are explicitly Non-Normal include:
~Those affecting a role's alignment (no Cults).
~Anything which significantly affects the core mechanic of majority/plurality lynches (no Kingmaker, for example).
~Anything resolving with a random element, with the exception of missed night choices. It must be included in the public ruleset if you are resolving night choices in this way.
~Post Restrictions (other than those included in the ruleset, such as "No quoting your Role PM").
~Lying to the players, including False Role Reveals and "Scum Masons".
~Night action redirection (no Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, or Redirector).
~Alignments other than Mafia/Werewolf, Pro-Town, and Serial Killer (no Survivor, Lyncher, or Jester).
Roles which are explicitly Normal include:
~Vanilla Townie, Sane Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Innocent Child, Jailkeeper, Tracker, Watcher, Gunsmith, Miller, Bodyguard, Role Cop, Doublevoter, Hider, Neighbor, Neighborizer, Jack of All Trades, Serial Killer, Mafia Goon, Mafia Traitor, Mafia Godfather, Mafia Framer, Mafia-aligned versions of above roles
Modifiers which are explicitly Normal include:
~Even/Odd Night, Non-Consecutive Night, X-Shot, Bulletproof, Compulsive, Macho, Weak, Backup (with or without primary role present)
Roles which are explicitly Non-Normal include:
~Non-Sane Cop, Blank Vig, Non-Sane or Quack Doctor, Janitor, Survivor, Lyncher, Cultist, Jester, Mafia Mason, Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, Redirector.

QED

No Cult, as per that big "No Cult" first line.

No more paranoia.

[/instruction]

I mean seriously, im apparently the new pony on the block and I know more about what these games are then people who have been here for a bit? Come on everypony, this site is supposedly known for the wikipedia aspect of it.

[Rainbowdash]

Town defends town tons, in every game town will defend town to varying degrees

depending on strength of reads.

The bolded says it all. I considerably doubt that Thomith could have a strong read on Neruz at that stage of the game, which would lead to him knowing his alignment, A.k.a Scum.

No?

I already have a few town reads that I see as enough to defend people a little. Sometimes you just see a post that makes you go "WOW that pony is town", it could happen early in the game or late, but it can happen.

Please though, don't be Derpy. The guidelines on the wiki explicitly say no cults allowed.

[Rainbowdash]

Town defends town tons, in every game town will defend town to varying degrees

depending on strength of reads.

The bolded says it all. I considerably doubt that Thomith could have a strong read on Neruz at that stage of the game, which would lead to him knowing his alignment, A.k.a Scum.

[Rainbowdash]

Well you need to watch more MLP:FiM then. That is fan named Derpy Hooves which orginiated from animation error with the eyes all screwed up like that. Now that character is included with eyes like that as an animaitors joke quite often.

Doesn't change the fact that you are probably wrong about this. He actually isn't saying that Neruz is obviously town or anything, I think im actually pushing my town reads harder than Thomith is pushing his. If you look at what he has said;

Tbh i don't find Neruz scummy for not voting me, it seems like a town instinct to not vote if there is only one or two scumpoints on them but to rather wait untill someone with major scum points pops up.

sure but i'm not going to believe Neruz is scum for this, as i don't see the reason why Neruz is getting bandwagoned for this reason.

Well of course i am trying to convince them not to because i don't agree with the reasoning. How is this scummy again?

This is somepony who thinks that Neruz is being attacked for BS reasoning, not somepony who thinks that Neruz is obviously town. Why are you so into what he is doing here while you really seem to take little issue with me already calling Thomith and EB town? This Thomith wagon if its really based primarily on the above post chain just makes no sense, especially since it ignores some things that actually can be construed as scum tells yet ponies ignore them for something like this just screws around with my reads since there are some tells there but no one pays attention which I would normally think exaggerates them, yet I really can't believe this is a mostly/all town wagon that lucked onto a scum lynch which is what it would need to be so...

Thomith is a bit of a town read still, this whole attack on him is harping on an at best null tell.

[Rainbowdash]

@Neruz - Games need to be approved. Three cult recruiters would not be approved, especially since I don't think that can even balance with just 13 ponies playing.

@hiphop

Going to say Thomith and EB are probably town at this point.

There is your quote

I already explained Thomith last post, EB is town for his post against VM and that he also is defending Thomith against crap attacks.

Give me something harder to answer.

[Rainbowdash]

Obviously he is attempting to state that Neruz is town when there is little to go on, which results with him scum defending a townie.

Bull.

There is nothing wrong with trying to shut down a wagon or thinking someone is town in early stages of a game. I have actually done this having zero read on the person who was getting wagoned because the reasons made absolutely zero sense.

Even you state to Thomith.

Town usually will vote for somepony with little to no reasoning. What type of poines have you been playing with?

And, the fact that you now flip your view is disturbing. There is no reason as to why Thomith defended Neruz, if he wasn't scum, and didn't know his alignment.

TOWN CAN DEFEND A READ. I really cannot believe that you never have defended somepony you thought was town, at all, early in a game or not, just based off a read of them. I mean heck, probably defend a good half the game usually when I play since I for whatever odd reason really dislike people trying to get my town reads lynched.

And here you say

When Thomith is making very few attempts to push action elsewhere in the game, attempts to detract from the other existing wagon, even in early game, is something to look at.

Which should show you that Thomith is more likely scum, not knowing where to look to find other scum. But apparently not.

Given the gamestate, failure to start a case on somepony else would likely result in the wagon shifting to him if he convinced everypony to get off Neruz. Scum normally will not draw a wagon onto themselves. Unless Thomith competely ignored everyone locking down hard on him and Neruz, he is probably town from this.

Thomith is a bit of a town read still, this whole attack on him is harping on an at best null tell.

Calling Thomith town because 4 people are pushing for his lynch, really? First, ever heard of bussing, A.k.a Voided. Second, there are more townies then scum(more than 4 townies), or does your role state otherwise? I really do not see how you cannot label Thomith as scum.

If he is scum, then the entire wagon on him is town, which I really don't think is the case. As long as we are still going for the "one of two" thing, im actually leaning heavily to either you or Neruz being scum at this point given the last few pages. Not to mention it means WV and VM would have to be town. I see next to zero chance all four of you are town, and those don't look like bus posts.

Unvote
Vote Beck

Better lynch. Sleuth isn't a bad wagon after that last post of his either.

[Rainbowdash]

So rainbow, wanna join me in voting hiphop? I mean, Beck isn't a particularly bad vote, but there are better ones.

I want to get reads from this push first, it should help with a few things that I am not quite sure of. Hiphop is a good wagon though, and I am not going to do anything to try and derail it. That and I want to actually see what Thomith does given his jump with me, I have my mini case but actually want him to lay down the first card in this situation.

Rainbowdash-I tried to defend against someone who I thought was townie way back in Newbie 845. Right before I played in my first scum game. I defended scum day 1, because I thought that with everyone pushing the wagon, that it might be scum driven. Turns out his partner was bussing, scum was lynch, I was lynched day 2. I intend to never do it again, though I have done it as scum since.

That is a very poor reason to never defend another pony again. At times will it bite you? Sure, but anypony who is competent can usually still get out of a lynch if they are town given defense mannerisms, and if you are good at reading town, its rare that you hardcore defend scum to start. As the element of loyalty I should know a few things about putting friends first, not like its possible to ever win this game without a town read.

[Rainbowdash]

Confound these ponies, they drive me to insanity.

Lets get some things straight first of all. Like the whole myth of overreaction which does not exist and for some reason lots of poines think its a tell, much like being aggressive or things of that nature, its going to be indicative of a poines playstyle isntead of their alignment. The one reaction worth noting is the jokeish reaction Thomith threw out there early, but I think play since that post has him leaning town despite his numerous attempts to prove me otherwise.

To clarify for Beck, I do think one of hiphop and Neruz are probably scum, but that by no means says that they are my top pick at this point in the game. Sure if I could instantly lynch two instead of just push one lynch we could talk, but I am exploring those two through other options right now, and there are other legitimately scummy ponies in the game that need pressure. I would vote either over Thomith though if it came down to a situation such as that. His last post basically cemented my thought in him. Do you really expect somepony who is going down as scum to softclaim VT and say you can put me back at L-1? Situations are few and far between where they do such maneuvers.

Thomith continues to confuse me since he appears to constantly be in the right place for the wrong reasons.

Beck I had as a scum read, although slightly lessening at this point, for his early play. Specifically his early post directed at Neruz which brushed off the two RVS vote point, which is a somewhat valid tell. However it really just was a theory comment more then anything else which didn't seem to match what I would expect from somepony in that situation. Seemed like a slight defense to Neruz, but at the same time avoiding taking stances against impolison and WV.

Since then though posting has gotten better, although he really needs to streamline his posting more since it feels very disjointed and that makes it difficult to read.

Sleuth I think I overestimated his scumminess level. Nothing too wrong there although I dislike him just asking VM if the play from Neruz has been constant over the entire game.

[Rainbowdash]

So.

This is how we are going to do things.

I am town, implosion is town and EB is town. I want to call Thomith town, and through WIFOM I also am starting to think Neruz is town for reasons along the same lines of it being obvious that cults do not exist. Heck all we need is one more and Elements of Harmony complete and we can just rip this game apart. All of this should be obvious to the rest of you ponies, so we are going to start pushing the pace of this game since its starting to fracture up a bit and needs somepony to reign it in.

Unvote
Vote hiphop

Town alliance go.

I got the rope all ready

[Rainbowdash]

since I am not a pony, I am confused. care to explain why hiphop is scum?

Everypony is somepony, but I will explain anyways.

Hiphop is just hard locked into the fact that Thomith as a town read on Neruz, which is a complete null tell since it possible to have enough of a read to not like a wagon in the early stages. Unlike what hiphop also says, there is no explicit calling Neruz town from Thomith, but instead mostly disagreement with the reasoning behind the wagon which I can see. Someponies, despite it being fundamentally poor play, don't like voting anypony until they are more or less convinced that somepony actually are scum. Again, poor play and I tend to get frustrated from these ponies, but its not necessarily a scumtell, simply alignment tell.

Hiphop also continues to lock in on this tell which is indefensable since its a fact that Thomith detracted from the early Neruz wagon. There is almost willful ignorance of everything else that can be called a tell on Thomith, not sure what to make of this really, but it more feels like scum who has something they are sure they can get a lynch from and are ready to do such.

Then there is also this post which makes hackles stand up thusly


you really didn't think you were going to get off without a pony pic did you?

deselby-I am saying what he did was done by scum. And if meta supports it, then so be it. If you don't believe that I am not using meta to say he is scum, iso me and make up your own mind, don't use me to do your dirty work. Also the second post that you quoted is buddying to an extreme.

The use of the phrase "dirty work" has implication that Thomith is a mislynch that deselby is pushing, as if Thomith was scum, that would not be applicable in such situation. Here we just see hiphop somewhat attacking people for using things that he has brought up in a way that suggests that he knows what has been discussed already was incorrect.

EB, Neruz, Thomith, Implosion team, lets get this one won. If hiphop really is scum deselby gets to be the final element of harmony. WV gets blasted tomorrow and last pony gets cleaned up day three.

[Rainbowdash]

So sorry guys i forgot that voided was on my wagon i was at L-2 not L-1 so dels if you want to revote then you can i guess although i would have hoped you thought hiphop was wrong by now...

I don't see the soft claim either, but this is where he basically says he can be voted to be put back to L-1

Yeah thats not it. It happened here

Now i am L-1 and will most likely get lynched today

This is somepony who is not going to be claiming a PR, so that makes it a VT softclaim. Also he goes on to talk about what he reccomends for the next few days which is another decent towntell since scum really are more interested in still trying to get something else happening at that point. Town at times realizes the best they can do is try and get final thoughts in for later game prep, such as right here.

Elements of Harmony - 1 is still a go. When its completed I will say who earned that last spot. All we really need though is for all five of us to be town and scum is already almost screwed over.

[Rainbowdash]

As i said it looks more like scum giving up

You are going to have to provide a way to distinguish between VT softclaim and scum giving up then, since it seems that you are basis this on a "Because I said so" type of arguement as opposed to something that can be applied to different scenarios and achieve a constantly similar result.

@des - Hiphop would have needed to actively fight Thomith over reading his partner incorrectly if Neruz-hiphop is a scumteam, and I don't think that scum would make such a huge fuss over that area of a case since as I said there are some ok tells out of Thomith.

[Rainbowdash]

Also, while EB's posts have been pretty good, there haven't been many of them, it seems that labelling eb town now is premature.

Element of Harmony trial membership card revoked. Now accepting applications for slot #6

[Rainbowdash]

Posting from lunch break at work so no pictures for you this time, this needs to be said though about VCs

@mod

- Can you orginize the votes in chronological order instead of alphabetical? It helps with visualization. For player list either by number or alphabetical is fine, but I would prefer to see the votes in chronological.

That said wow the hiphop wagon actually looks all town at this point. Two (maybe even all three??) on Thomith, one off.

See you all again in around three hours.

[Rainbowdash]

Thomith remains town for refusing to jump the hiphop wagon.

Elements of Harmony leaderboard

True Elements (3)

Rainbow Dash
Evil Bullet
Implosion

Extended Trial Membership (1)

Thomith

Trial Members (1)

Neruz

Applicants (2)

Beck
Deselby (?) - If hiphop is scum he is in, if not he joins deathlist

Elements of Enmity aka the Make Dead List (3)

hiphop
Sleuth
WV (but probably not with hiphop)

Everypony else is null and needs to post more.

For whatever pony asked, the Elements of Harmony are what the six mane ponies represent in MLP:FiM. Too bad Twilight isn't here because she could explain all that better than I can, you can always go watch our adventures on YouTube though! All I know is I am the element of Loyalty.

Im serious about hiphop-town meaning Sleuth/WV/deselby get blasted. Sleuth probably gets rope soon either way. Hmmph. Thats a lot of town reads for hiphop-scum. Going to think about this. Sleuth may need rope first.

Everypony bear with me while I think about this one.

[Rainbowdash]

Elements of Harmony leaderboard is at the top of the page. That should answer that.

[Rainbowdash]

Thomith would be a great alignment to confirm either way at this point, really need to do some heavy thinking there since so many people on the list that is going to get ran up the next couple days are tied to him closely, namely hiphop, WV and Sleuth, but this also is a good way to possibly get Neruz into the core elements.

Hiphop is apparently as stubborn as I am, so I do need to think about that one a bit more. Only issue again is that those who I think are scum basically all gain town points if Thomith is scum and shift the scumteam to something wierd that I really don't feel like thinking about. I mean, given that there are so few possibilites to go with Thomith well (outside of Beck, Parama, Ellibereth and VM who is there?), I just think he is town despite all the not town stuff he has done. He may just be intentionally pandering to the tells I have shown im going to follow, but he is hitting them. I just really don't see scum-Thomith calling Neruz and hiphop town here to the extent where he is going elsewhere to find a wagon.

I am *this* close to calling off the hiphop wagon and making it a Sleuth one.

[Rainbowdash]

Have you been reading, or to be more specific have you been reading Rainbowdash's posts? Iso her.

Rainbowdash looks a lot like town mastin tbh, not quite the same, but many similarities.

Please don't compare me to mastin. I am far more willing to reconsider things, despite being fairly headstrong.

[Rainbowdash]

Oh, fyi the last game(and only at that) town decided to group up and lynch everyone else, the townie asked 2 scum to be in it with him. That turned into a perfect scum win. And Rainbow is doing the exact same thing.

This is why im trying to bang out final stuff. Im near certain that implosion is town, and im pretty sure that EB is town although that last post would give as Pinkie Pie would call it "Twitchy Tail", still that slot is quite a bit more likely then not town, especially if my scum reads are more or less correct.

Its Thomith and Neruz where I hit a bit of a rough patch. It really may be pride that is keeping Thomith where he is on the list. I do not like to be wrong once I have committed myself, and will fight a losing battle to not give up a position. Logic just says that I should switch Neruz and Thomith though. I just really am a little confused over him, since so much keys in on what he actually is. I easily could pull out justification for his lynch, but I still see him as town for a few moves that really don't equate with anything except for suicidal scum, and thats not something that one tends to see elsewhere, and im assuming not here. If I could just get a flip on someone, it would be him at this point, just so I could solidify reads and get past the nagging. Just too much there behavior wise matches up to VT, which matches up to his softclaim.

I want implosion to come back here and say something.

[Rainbowdash]

From work post so again no pony pictures. I am sure most of you will be crushed.

unvote
Vote Voided

Change of pace time. Will explain this after work, a forewarning, I work late today.

[Rainbowdash]

So, a few of you apparently are wondering why I jumped off hiphop. Mostly comes down to not really understanding why I was there in the first place. As you can tell, im quite the proud little pony and dislike being wrong. I also like to be in control as long as I have one or two ponies with me I can trust, which I have in implosion and to a lesser extent EB. Now I think part of the hiphop wagon came from me really thinking Thomith is town, first instinct was to establish dominance by shutting down the attack with a direct counter on the primary assultant, which is hiphop. I really don't have much against him except for that one quote which he actually is still ignoring and he needs to answer. That is the one about "dirt work" and for deselby is the reason that the two of you are likely not going to be scum together on top of other stuff. If he hiphop is scum deselby is most definantly in the Elements of Harmony.

Sleuth still is hanging in second pick territory for me. All of his actions really are just counters to people attacking him, whether he is going to admit that its OMGUS or not is a whole different story, it is at least in part OMGUS though. His current vote is based entirely on Thomith voting him for lurking, and he shows no sign of trying to expand on this.

I actually moved my vote to VM because he works quite well as scum independantly of what Thomith is. If Thomith is scum and got bussed, it was from VM. If Thomith is town, VM works as scum very cleanly if you factor in the early posts from him regarding that slot such as

But both you and Hiphop have good points regarding Thomith. Could be scum bussing a partner, or town getting a bit too defensive, but I'm willing to go out on a limb about it.

See, the thing is, we actually have a good reason to suspect Neruz, and your defense of him is both indirectly implicating him as being scum and making you out to be a suspect as well.

Besides, I don't think you or Neruz have really explained why he would call you scummy and then vote someone else because coming up with a seemingly legit case (however small it was) and the trying to mask things under the guise of RVS smells REALLY fishy.

Unvote, Vote: Thomith

Hip: I suppose that's also a point. Thomith is certainly digging a hole with his posts.

Lots of weak moves regarding Thomith in those two posts, which seem to keep the amount of suspicion he has on him very vauge. We see him arguing both sides in the first one, and in the second not really backing up why the logic is fishy, it simpy is. The agreement with hip bugs me as well, I don't see how digging a hole is scummy at all. Why even bring that one up as a point?

This post

Oh, right, if I think you're scum. Had a post on that, then stupidly got it deleted by clicking on a bookmark. But anyways, I checked through the first couple pages up to when I switched to you, and I didn't really see much reason for me to vote you, so I'm gonna

Unvote.

I still hold Neruz in suspicion, but Evil Bullet is right in that we probably need to either look at things from a different angle or find another place to go to.

Also just seems out of place, especially has VM is calling Neruz scum while not voting, yet that was in part his inital attack on Neruz.

Then there is the out of nowhere sheep on me onto hiphop. Up until that point I was convinced the entire wagon was town driven. Now not so sure.

Also if VM is town so is one of Sleuth and Parama, almost for sure. VM has shown way to much interest in lurkers contributing without making any pushes against them.

Now we observe.

[Rainbowdash]

I really don't have much against him except for that one quote which he actually is still ignoring and he needs to answer. That is the one about "dirt work" and for deselby is the reason that the two of you are likely not going to be scum together on top of other stuff.

Perhaps if you phrase that into a question, instead of an assertion...

Ok then...

Explain your use of the phrase "dirty work" when addressing deselby following some of your logic in a form of an attack on Thomith.

[Rainbowdash]

Ehhh... not sure you are using that saying correctly. Dirty work implies somepony accomplishing something bad usually, not getting work done.

I also read implosion and deselby. Implosion is still probably town for poking hornet nests, and would require Thomith-town and probably WV-scum to fit as scum, maybe not WV-scum but for sure Thomith-town, which you disagree with so he should be town to you. I see him as town regardless, but those are the scenarios needed to change that read. Deselby has some weird posts regarding third party WHICH THERE IS NONE OF, and is attacking my "one of two" posts in an odd way but essentially is trying to stop me from being able to call certain ponies town in light of others flipping scum, which I dislike quite a bit.

Thomith wagon still is ugly.

[Rainbowdash]

I just came up to the neselby thing, and I disagree with you Rainbow, just because he doesn't want to join your alliance, because he doesn't like your town reads, does not make him scum. In fact, the fact that he doesn't want to join your group, (a sure way for scum to advance in the game), makes him more townie than scum.

Not my point against him. I was talking about a few pairings where its one or the other as scum, and he responded by pressuring for both to be scum without any reasoning. That just makes me feel like somepony who doesn't want others to ever be labled as town. Now that really only hold true if one of the two (hiphop/Neruz I think?) are scum, but it made me uncomforatable.

For attacking the alliance, he just said its a bad idea to make one of them. And used a simley face, supplemental tell. He is attacking the alliance because it might have scum in it, while the only pony in the alliance he really has any issue with appear to be EB whos "posts have been pretty good" and maybe Neruz? This appears to be more of an attempt to stop the alliance from actually forming then having a concrete reason that he distrusts the members of it.

I think you just singlehandedly may have convinced me to put delesby on the death list.

Right now im thinking - VoidedMafia + delesby + Sleuth

[Rainbowdash]

For attacking the alliance, he just said its a bad idea to make one of them. And used a simley face, supplemental tell. He is attacking the alliance because it might have scum in it, while the only pony in the alliance he really has any issue with appear to be EB whos "posts have been pretty good" and maybe Neruz? This appears to be more of an attempt to stop the alliance from actually forming then having a concrete reason that he distrusts the members of it.

The smiley face I believe refers to this. A picture does say a thousand words. And think about it, if everyone else is lynched, and it comes down to you, deselby and Eb. Does he really want to come to that situation, especially when he couldn't do anything before then?

Ah, missed that refrence since those were not grapes but that food the buffalo gave us. I disliked it.

Its not going to come down to that endgame, I will guarentee you that to start, but you missed my point I think. He seems to have little issue with the people in the alliance except maybe Neruz who has gone unmentioned for some time. EB he even calls probably town for their posts. This is not a reason to attack an alliance to me, which is what he is doing. I can see town motivation in bringing up a case on somepony who is in the alliance that he thinks shouldn't be, or even somepony outside of it.

Attacking the alliance that as it stands he apparently thinks at least three, seemingly four if not more ponies in it are town, that doesn't mesh with town thinking to me. Even if I saw an alliance I thought was all town that was not a part of, I wouldn't try to discredit it at all.

[Rainbowdash]

Look here.

I can completely see anypony not wanting Thomith to make an endgame scenario. Heck I would prefer to not have him in one and I think he is town here. Thomith appears to be a distinct type of wierd though, its like Pinkie Pie meets Derpy Hooves. You have somepony who no offense to Thomith, really gives little air of being too competent in this game, and would do well to learn by getting town reads, or even competentcy reads, and looking at how they come to conclusions. You have to realize that in this game, good is getting reads right about a third of the time, if somepony could read scum at 50% accuracy, sign me up to sheep them every game I am in. No pony is that good.

I am not sure where I was going with that maybe. What the point I eventually wanted to make is something like this; Thomith aka Pinkie Hooves, is far more of a threat to himself then he is a threat to anypony else. Our sanity though, he is a legitimate threat there. His odds of being scum probably aren't much more than scum count in the game I think here, which isn't going to be that high of a number. I just prefer not using early lynches on ponies that are more or less unreadable due to their personality. Sure they may be a little dense and we can't undersand them much if any in some thought processes, aka Pinkie Hooves which as im sure you can tell I really love that term I just invented, they just are liabilities. A liability at this stage doesn't get lynched in my books. If anything appears later in the game that suggest them as scum to dead scum, fire away. Until then who cares, again no offense to Thomith, but when they just post disjointed cases like he has been, all that is going to happen is it gets shrugged off by most others.

Is Thomith a horrible lynch? Not at all, mostly because a town flip from there rockets a few good picks up the lynchin tree. Thing is, I doubt we are going to do much better then scum content for him flipping scum at this point in the game.

Now I have been wanting to use this picture for a while and am not sure how to work it in. Maybe a "You scratch my back I will scratch yours" type thing? That can be a metaphor for you help me get someone who could be scum with Thomith lynched today and if they flip scum I will heavily reconsider lynching him tomorrow, at the very least kicking him out of the EoH. Consider that a not so subtle hint to those on the Thomith wagon that I haven't expressed doubts over.



Brushie brushie

@mod

- I have minor surgery Tuesday, I should be back that night or next morning but worse case you won't see me until Thursday/Friday.

Will get more up later tonight. As normal Thursdays are my Fridays, so I should have the time.

[Rainbowdash]

Yet if you don't fight it, then it can become quite enjoyable. Besides as I sure I have said, it doesn't get in the way of me being able to do stuff and is a way I can enjoy the game quite a bit more than most of you ponies are able to. Probably should explain more since not all of you have seen enough MLP to understand all of my last post, forget that some ponies think its a bad show without giving it a second chance.

Pinkie Pie is hyperactive and random nearly to a fault. I really don't understand much if any of what she trys to do, but in the end it normally tend to have some merit behind it. Derpy Hooves is, well Derpy thanks to whatever pony screwed up that animation that the fanbase caught onto. So Pinkie Hooves, a combination of utterly random and unintentionally self-destructive play. I think that fits somepony like Thomith to a tee. Or is it tea? Or just "T"?

Thanks for commenting on parts of my post that pretain to the game though.

[Rainbowdash]

is rainbow a hydra trydra or an alt >.>

I am a single pony. I would say not an alt, but I think everypony is going to assume im an alt either way so I have lost hope in trying to do so. Think this is the longest it has taken someone to accuse me of being an alt though, you ponies had me thinking I wasn't going to need to fight that one.

I don't understand anything you said other than let's not lynch thom, which I'm not doing

Still, I dislike being ignored for the most part. Trying to apporach this differently because I still really think that lynching Thomith as about the same odds of lynch scum as I do of just pulling a name out of a hat here. That pony has gone off the deep end from early on and is apparently trying to swim to the other side instead of just plod on back out like any normal pony would. If there becomes a reason later on to suspect him as scum with a flipped pony, I am fine with that lynch, until then, im not voting him. There is next to zero attempts to stay alive, which is far more likely to come from a town pony then a scum pony.

[Rainbowdash]

ok
alt or no alt
what's your experience with the site meta?

I am guessing around the level of somepony who has been here at least a year despite my recent join date. Im picking up quick on what type of play actually gets followed and applying that as I go along fairly quickly. Everything else is just theory that I know from playing with real ponies enough that real life or web based should still be applicable.

Not entirely sure why this is important though, again as I also always say when I get accused of being an alt; I know im decent at this so you should treat me as such, no kiddie gloves.

[Rainbowdash]

bleh, even if i didn't have scum inklings from Thom and he was just useless unreadable baggage of crap or a utility target I disagree with you guys theoretically. (It's either D1, N1 vig, or D2).

Like I said, unless I get a couple specific ponies flipping specific alignments, I would prefer not to see Thomith in an endgame. Heck if it was a 5p scenario with only one scum I would be willing to just lynch him because I wouldn't be able to trust myself. One of my biggest flaws is that im a little too easy to buddy up to. Thomith is behind three people very cleanly though for "dont want to lynch", probably more in that grey area of unsurednessly which would hold people like Parama and Ellibereth who I really just see zero point in lynching. So I guess Thomith actually is nearly smack dead in the middle of who I would lynch despite reads. Parama is a good comparison to Thomith though to me, both are essentially shots in the dark, still say Thomith is about of scum count average of being scum, although Thomith could give more insight on others.

I greatly prefer the VM lynch. I could see him working with almost everypony at this point.

While it is true that those posts do not carry any overt sense of suspicion in them, the intent was that previous posts had already given that, and thus rendered it redundant. Whether that suceeded or not, well...<_<

I didn't push you for repeating what had already been said. I called you out on not taking solid stances on anypony, and leaving all doors open with regards to Neruz and Thomith. Like I say here to which you respond;

We see him arguing both sides in the first one, and in the second not really backing up why the logic is fishy, it simpy is.

I felt that the action and the setence it's in explained why it's fishy. After all, this was a convenient way to just claim "Hey, I'm just RVSing" which Neruz did, and then he can potentially back out of this with no harm done, assuming that we hadn't picked up on the rather obvious contradiction.

As for the first, I'm not afraid to state what I think both sides are (unless I think there aren't). Why does this feel off to you?

Funny thing here is you are attacking Neruz for exactly what I am attacking you for now. Both of the posts I brought up were worded in such a way that you could easily say that somepony is town or scum with minimal effort, fence sitting if you will. Also its just basically summarizing what is happening instead of actually giving a stance on it, which is scummy because its a way to make it seem like you are contributing to the discusion without actually having to firmly plant hooves on either side of the line.

The agreement with hip bugs me as well, I don't see how digging a hole is scummy at all. Why even bring that one up as a point?

The point is, the way Thomith was going about it was dragging himself down along with Neruz. Scummy both by association with Neruz and through his own posts (too late for specific posts, but I believe most of them have already been covered).

What? So digging a hole was some unique way of saying commited the exact same scumtells as somepony else? Also its never too late for specific posts. That is what makes this so much more different then when ponies meet somewhere to play, you can accurately go back and bring up what was said.

This post

Oh, right, if I think you're scum. Had a post on that, then stupidly got it deleted by clicking on a bookmark. But anyways, I checked through the first couple pages up to when I switched to you, and I didn't really see much reason for me to vote you, so I'm gonna

Unvote.

I still hold Neruz in suspicion, but Evil Bullet is right in that we probably need to either look at things from a different angle or find another place to go to.

Also just seems out of place, especially has VM is calling Neruz scum while not voting, yet that was in part his inital attack on Neruz.

You would like to call me out on hypocrisy, wouldn't you?

Thing is, I didn't actually call him scum in this post, nor assign any scumpoints or scumtells to him. I ONLY said he has my suspicion. Nothing more, nothing less.

Don't get snippy with me. These hooves can not only protect but also destroy, and I will not hesitate to use them to do such if you aren't going to just answer questions straightforward. Also I love to call ponies out on being hypocritical since its a scumtell.

How in the world is saying somepony has your suspicion, but they aren't going to get your vote any different then what happened with Neruz to start the game? Its the exact same thing, scarily the exact same thing. Even with that last post you specifically say that he has your suspicion, which makes him more scummy than anypony at null read, which is what we all railed on Neruz for.

Then there is the out of nowhere sheep on me onto hiphop. Up until that point I was convinced the entire wagon was town driven. Now not so sure.

Now, this vote WAS sheeping (happy now? You can say I sheeped), but even if I didn't try to add my own logic, I did (and do) agree with the logic you gave for voting Hiphop, which is why I followed you.

Sheeping isnt scummy inherantly, if it was no pony would ever get lynched. You need background characters to have a good show. Maybe this is more null, but its something I feel needed to be pointed out. Up until that point I was really convinced that the entire hiphop wagon was town. Wierd thing is, looking at that votecount, you stick out a whole lot to me. If there is scum on the wagon, probably you. I can actually see you as scum with or without hiphop, although more likely without. Instead with one of Sleuth/Parama and then somepony else from the WV/Thomith/Neruz/Beck/deselby group. This is all speculation until I prove myself right though, that VC just makes me think you are scum at a glance. Wonder if just saying throw you in the big group and it becomes a pick two works better. Given early game I believe one of the three lurkers is scum or at least two of my alliance is scum, which I heavily lean to lurker. This is even more true if deselby is town.

Also if VM is town so is one of Sleuth and Parama, almost for sure. VM has shown way to much interest in lurkers contributing without making any pushes against them.

Playstyletell. I usually don't push lurkers unless they're active lurking.

Also, where have I pushed hard for Sleuth and/or Parama to post? And I'm not talking about off-hand comments like, "Oh, you're right, Sleuth isn't posting." or anything like that.

I can tell you I've only directly mentioned Parama once before this post (the other two times were in quotes), and Sleuth about 3-4. Granted, the time I mentioned Parama is when I directly ask him, "Are you even going to post?" but I haven't even broached that subject with him since.

As for Sleuth, I have never actually gone out of my way to say, "Sleuth hasn't been posting. You ought to start doing that." or anything like that. So I'm not sure where you're getting "has shown way too much interest in lurkers contributing"

Iso 16. The individual addressing of slightly different questions just was one of those things that made me jot down a note.

Now we observe.

*observes* Rainbowdash! What do your pony eyes see?

I see little reason to back off what I have been thinking so far, although the play from Ellibereth has caused me to have my reads shaken a little bit and helped get my head out of the clouds. Seems like he keep pushing the exact ponies I have more doubts about, which I like and dislike at the same times. See I really dislike being wrong and tend to not admit such until I have near inconclusive proof otherwise, damn anchoring heruistic, but he keeps playing devils advocate.

That was more then I intended to write.

[Rainbowdash]

I love you pony.
I really do.

Whats your current thoughts on VM though? Just even a one liner.

@hiphop - So does that mean you support or ambivilant or don't like the Thomith wagon, because I know I have been more or less vauge about it.

[Rainbowdash]

We figured those thoughts were worth sharing. I was at work and it just hit me all of a sudden, the connections between the two posts, but then trying to put into words why they're connected didn't go as planned. Sounded better in my head while I was mopping aisle 7.

Carry a thought notepad with you. I always do that when im outside for work, which is most of the time until the 24th when the audit happens and I finally get to move inside again. Just a small pad that can fit in back pocket, gets filled with mafia ideas and non-mafia ideas.

What is your current stance on Thomith, Neruz, Sleuth and Implosion? If your heads differ at all it would be nice to know as well, since I am near positive there is one conflicting read here.

[Rainbowdash]

I support the lynch, and haven't stopped, why do you ask? However I would like to know what changed your mind between those 2 posts I quoted.

Just making sure I know where everypony is regarding him since its one of the biggest topics. There isn't a change in my feeling between those posts. I do still have to go with my gut that Thomith is town here, but I recognize that he is not a poor deadline lynch, and I realize that his alignment is one of the most important ones we could get at this point. Basically meaning if I was a day cop, no questions asked I would be going there.

Very torn over that slot, part of me wants to continue the defense of him because I have a nautral tendancy to stand up for somepony who I feel is getting attacked that I have any shred of a town read on. Heck I still think that was one of the biggest reasons for my push on you was to try and scare people off voting him. I do realize that so much will start falling into place with a flip from him though. Its the soft VT claim followed by resignation that I don't see coming from scum though, especially the part where he says he expects votes to return to him.

[Rainbowdash]

As for not taking stances, I was looking at it from both a scum and town perspective (as some/most of my posts from that point should attest), so it does stand to reason that I'd be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt about it all. So yeah, I admit that I wasn't exactly being direct and "this action is X, not Y" in regards to Thomith.

Thing is that anypony can think from both sides of the equation given enough practice, being able to get into opposite mindset is what allows ponies to be significantly above average strength in this game. What I can't do is get into your specific mindset as well, I can infer some things about what you think from reading your posts, as you saw me pick up dissent in EBs posts already since things didn't mesh. You are the one that needs to take at least some form of stance, even when in doubt. Look at me and Thomith, am I calling him town and trying to get wagons elsewhere? Of course, but by no means am I fully convinced in that pony flipping town. You just have to act on what you think, and actually think something. I honestly cannot believe anypony can have zero opinon on anypony else even after a couple of posts from them.

As for Neruz, though, I think I pretty clearly said that I found him scummy for that stuff. Or am I missing something?

You have been voting Neruz for all of 90 minutes this game. Shift to Thomith off him came around the point of the quotes you were really stalling stances.

which is scummy because its a way to make it seem like you are contributing to the discussion without actually having to firmly plant hooves on either side of the line.

Is summarizing it scummy or not giving a stance scummy? Because summarzing like this isn't always scummy.

Summarizing is actually somewhat of a tell since its a great way to give illusion of doing something else to ponies who don't like to listen too closely. Not giving stances is also usually scummy since its not contributing which is bad.

What? So digging a hole was some unique way of saying commited the exact same scumtells as somepony else?

No, I'm pretty sure I never tried accusing Thomith of doing the same as Neruz.

Re-explain the digging a hole part being scummy then, because I don't get how it is.

You would like to call me out on hypocrisy, wouldn't you?

Thing is, I didn't actually call him scum in this post, nor assign any scumpoints or scumtells to him. I ONLY said he has my suspicion. Nothing more, nothing less.

Don't get snippy with me. These hooves can not only protect but also destroy, and I will not hesitate to use them to do such if you aren't going to just answer questions straightforward. Also I love to call ponies out on being hypocritical since its a scumtell.

But I did answer it straightfowardly below that...why are you trying to say I didn't?

Sorta, you kind of just admitted to what I was saying and thought you weren't going to do that.

How in the world is saying somepony has your suspicion, but they aren't going to get your vote any different then what happened with Neruz to start the game? Its the exact same thing, scarily the exact same thing. Even with that last post you specifically say that he has your suspicion, which makes him more scummy than anypony at null read, which is what we all railed on Neruz for.

Because I had scumreads that were worse than Neruz at the time. Neruz only had nullreads.

To me, Neruz was the lesser of two evils, and thus did not get a vote.

Who was the greater of two evils? I know that "Not Voting" pony you moved off Neruz for is a shifty character, but are they that bad?

Wonder if just saying throw you in the big group and it becomes a pick two works better. Given early game I believe one of the three lurkers is scum or at least two of my alliance is scum, which I heavily lean to lurker. This is even more true if deselby is town.

Not quite sure what you're saying here, honestly.

[/quote]

Game behavior and lack of resistance to me pushing an alliance suggest scum is either not afriad of it or they are not in any position to do anything against it, such as lurking. Deselby is the only pony who seems against the concept, so if he is town I will near guarentee one Enmity Pony is in the inital lurker pool, most likely Sleuth/Parama given the entry to the game from Ellibereth. That or they are unafraid because scum is put in good position by the alliance.

For those complaining, VCA is normally still useful in any situation outside of a early game day cop guilty. I could still see lots of use from Thomith flip based on that.

I need to figure out which of hiphop and VM are scum so we can end this day without getting deadline pressure, especially as I just found out next weekend (27th-28th) I might lose all access.

[Rainbowdash]

Wow that was a fast hammer.

[Rainbowdash]

Wait, wierd, not VM. Ok never mind

[Rainbowdash]

Not sure if its L-3 or L-2 at this point. I was just hoping to get a reaction out of VM. Im not a one trick pony.

[Rainbowdash]

Its L-1. Leave it be.

[Rainbowdash]

Rainbow and I are the only ones on the same wavelength this game...

No kidding. I thought my comment was too obvious too.

It does buy you a ticket to the EoH club though, which I think im going to modify to simply have four members despite flavor calling for six. Nuts to flavor unless somepony else makes themselves obviously town.

[Rainbowdash]

I swear I saw Voided here a second ago.
I swear.

I saw it too.

For Neruz I may be putting too much reasoning behind the super secret tell I am using to call him town here, since it really only ruled out a few more specific things, it sort of depends at how good he is at balancing games believe it or not. Will take some time to read him over coming up.

[Rainbowdash]

By Celestia you ponies!

There are not two scum teams. There is not a SK. There is no cult. There is no boogeyman, santa or parasprite infestation.

Stop being paranoid over this stuff. It will hurt us in the long run since trust will get us anywhere and everywhere in this game.

VM not even twitching over being L-2 is odd enough, but then we have EB trying to move a wagon to Thomith, Thomith obviously lying about noticing it was a gambit Elli and myself were pulling, Beck trying to keep hiphop in a lynch pool if Thomith is scum, VM buddying/sheeping me very hard even after I explicitly said most of my hiphop case was based on reaction to town leader challenge, im sure Neruz doing something to piss me off recently that I can't recall off the top of my head, implosion disapperaing, Parama not being replaced yet, no recent votecount and on top of all that, well its all I have but im sure somepony else is causing me strife somehow.

Grah.

I will tell you if VM is claiming or not sometime withing the next twelve hours. We will progress from there. Ponies off the VM wagon need to weigh in near instantly on if you think he is scum or not.

[Rainbowdash]

There are not

two scum teams

. There is not a

SK

. There is no

cult.

There is no

boogeyman,

santa or

parasprite infestation.

Bolded is what we can be sure does not exist.

Yeah now thats right. I will explain all right before we actually lynch, and why its a slight town tell for Neruz to drop a few lines.

Will summarize the VM thing later, haven't had a chance to read much yet since last post and now look like im going to be busy for a few more hours.

For parasprites that episode should have everything that anypony needs to know about them and is quite a good one, despite the lack of that much of my presence in it. Also of course buddying works against me, you should all try it more. It also gets me more into a game, so I like it when it does happen.

[Rainbowdash]

Yeah now thats right. I will explain all right before we actually lynch, and why its a slight town tell for Neruz to drop a few lines.

You mean, if he does drop a few lines, it's a towntell? Lines about what roles are in the game?

Now now, no rolefishing. Its a minor tell though I think, may be putting too much stock in it, but its something I was looking to see if it would come up or not. All this gets explained before somepony gets lynched. Anypony who hammers without me saying I am ready for them to hammer I would be willing to wagon the next day just for that.

@VM - Humor me here, make a case on hiphop. If you want to draw from what I have said in the past but feel free too. I really haven't mentioned that pony as scum in the last ten or so pages so it would be nice to see what else you think has occured there. If you could elaborate on my push of him latching onto the one point against Thomith while ignoring others I would like that as well, since I was more or less torn on what that really ment when you broke it down.

I want implosion and Ellibereth to help me figure out exactly what we are doing here, especially regarding VM since I think im to attached to this decision when he has sheeped me so fully. I am used to ponies agreeing with me, but this much is not something I tend to be able to deal with and its hard to tackle from my standpoint.

[Rainbowdash]

@Beck - EB is likely town (teir 1.5) because of how much he said what I was thinking before I even said it early in the game. That tends to be a sign of somepony who is town from past experience. Think at this point T1 is implosion and Ellibereth, T1.5 is EB and T2 is Neruz.

I want someponies I have trust in helping me with VM here since I actually like that last post of his but really don't know where to go if that read is going to change on me.

[Rainbowdash]

Rainbow, when you call EB town, he posted 5 times. Can you point out to which post(s) in these 5, where he says what you are thinking.

Look. If you want to call EB scum just come flat out and make a case instead of beating around the bush when we only have about a week left in this day and as I said, next weekend I might lose access, and if there are any problems with surgery, I may disappear even moreso. Odds of both those are super low, but im not going to take risks on those types of things.

I like his first few posts a whole lot though, after that he has become more meh, which is why he is now downgraded to tier 1.5

VM is right too about what I was saying. I really am not sure what to do next if I start calling VM town. I almost want to wagon Sleuth though, but he has flaked at this point.

[Rainbowdash]

I'm still trying to rule you out as not being scum too so don't get pissy when I ask you to explain your reads, on how you can declare people like that.

Well I am not a fan of people being indirect that much. Gambity/Trickey go for it, but when a point needs to be made it needs to be made. Your post was worded as if you were going to say "I think he is scum because of X" afterwords, so reacted as such. Which of his posts make you think he is scum if any?

Side note regarding EB, if deselby or Beck are scum, EB is back to tier one town.

I could do a deselby quick wagon.

Up for one Ellibereth?

[Rainbowdash]

So votecount is

thomith 4 - WV, Nerux, hiphop, sleuth
VM 4 - EB, RD, Beck, Ellibereth
hiphop 2 - implosion, VM
WV 1 - Thomith

Doing nothing 2 - Deselby, Parama

I want somepony from the Thomith or not voting pool dead. Neruz I have to lean town, hiphop less but same. Parama is a useless lynch.

So one of WV, Sleuth and Deselby. Maybe hiphop. Thats it.

I still say one of Sleuth and Parama as well are going to flip scum. If both are town at least one of EB, Thomith and Neruz are scum. More likely two.

Unvote
Vote Deselby

Sleuth and Neruz get a D2 pass if they sheep me within the next 24 hours.

[Rainbowdash]

@WV - What is your joint viewpoint on Thomith? On hiphop? On deselby? Is Alex even posting anymore? See this why this hydra thing confuses me. There seems to be disagreement or both heads play off eachother and never listen to anypony else.

Countdown for free passes is ticking



tick tock everypony.

Well not everypony. Just WV and Sleuth.

[Rainbowdash]

What is this Delselby shit going on though.

For now, its simply



Will explain it when free pass deadline is up.

[Rainbowdash]

I defer you to my comments about winning and complaints about my top town reads not helping me enough here. Contrary to popular opinion I dislike leading on my own.

Its My Little Pony:

Friendship

is Magic, not My Little Pont: Hell Yes Rainbow Dash! Although that would be a good spin off. Basically it implies that I need help from other ponies here to produce scum catching magic. Implosion isn't giving me much and Ellibereth looks nearly as scattered as I am.

[Rainbowdash]

why do you have neruz as town again

WIFOM over cult speculation. Scum would probably be able to realize that there is no cult, at least I think it would be simpler for them to realize it over most town roles. I mean, I can see him as scum but his insistance on there being a cult makes me think otherwise. I do want a Thomith voter/No lyncher dead though today. At most one scum not in that group.

[Rainbowdash]

why do you have neruz as town again

WIFOM over cult speculation. Scum would probably be able to realize that there is no cult, at least I think it would be simpler for them to realize it over most town roles. I mean, I can see him as scum but his insistance on there being a cult makes me think otherwise. I do want a Thomith voter/No lyncher dead though today. At most one scum not in that group.

Mafia has just as much motivation as town to find cult, if there was one so that's horrible logic

There should be roles you can look at, Paranoid Gun Owner for instance, and go "There cannot be cult in this game". There are also ones that should give you no good sign one way or another about there being a cult. If you got a scum role though, and assuming there are three which seems to be standard for this size game and would be easy to balance, that should also be a sign that there is no cult. Which is why I think it comes down to if Neruz is somepony who actually can balance a game or not. If he can do a good job creating a setup, they are probably town. If they are not too good, then the tell is bunk.

@Ellibereth - You see what I have been having to deal with from these ponies? Cult discussion. I mean, this is what I have to deal with here, not only from Neruz but I think a couple other ponies as well.

[Rainbowdash]

Tick

About three hours left for passes

Tock

[Rainbowdash]

Oh believe me I will have my case or my "Its a trap!" statements all ready when time expires on those free passes. She said as she lays out more WV bait.

WV needs to talk about delesby more.

[Rainbowdash]

...

VOTE: Deselby

Once WV gives a solid stance on delesby, which he WILL under penalty of lynch in his next post even if its just one head saying what they think, this post WILL also occur in the next 24 hours, we will move on with results on this little experiment.

*Lays out more WV bait*

*Lays out some hiphop bait*

[Rainbowdash]

I don't develop an opinion on single posts. That's how you mislynch. It's about the whole, not the parts.

Trees for the forest
Devil in the details

Anyway you slice it there is no correct way to go about things. I have formulated correct reads off single posts, I have taken entire games to finally read a pony correctly.

Can you give me a couple paragraph case on VM? Also you get into meta, links to the relevant parts of ended games would be nice there.

Tick tock WV. I see you online.

[Rainbowdash]

unvote

Yeah deselby is still pretty null/town for me, only way he goes up the list fast is a majority (see all but implosion) of the block flipping town. Fun reaction test though.

I could go back to VM, I could do a sleuth wagon too, but his "I want to sheep" post feels like a slight towntell. I do want to know why he called Beck town though, thats one everypony keeps saying and I see nothing to make me think either way. Sleuth was only included in the deal to make sure he really would sheep who I said to. Wish WV came in earlier where wagon reaction would have been better.

I really want some Ellibereth and implosion pointing me in a direction here. Im still stuck on "go" setting and have no direction to actually go. Heck I can almost do a Neruz wagon here.

Stupid lack of scum reads. I know who I don't want dead but I can't make an order of who I do want dead that I like.

[Rainbowdash]

Shut up voided
Big project for work tomorrow rainbow
sowwy.

Ugh

Bad timing. Like I said, I have minor surgery Tuesday so I probably will not be on much/at all that day. Its outpony stuff though so should be back Wednesday, but by then deadline is in a couple days.

[Rainbowdash]

Heck I can almost do a Neruz wagon here.

Why would you want to do a Neruz wagon, over a Thomith wagon?

Thomith is probably town based on tells that tend to work for me. I have been calling Neruz town on setup WIFOM alone. I would be more willing to vote for Neruz for that reason. Especially since I dislike where Neruz has been vote wise most of the game.

I don't like the fact that Rainbow is putting her vote in the hands of Ellibreth, who has given no indication that he has read the game, and Implosion, who isn't reading the current game. Especially being that Rainbow has at least 4 votes to use.

I know. Four votes. So awesome when you factor in whats coming. I am going to be inviceable this game.

I want my town reads to weigh in though. I will put more consideration in what they have to say then what anypony else has to say here. Thier word is not final, but if I think somepony is town I am going to listen to them, especially when I am standing here trotting in place.

[Rainbowdash]

I wouldn't say invinceable, nobody is invincible.

Stop listening and sheeping rainbow and make up your own mind people. It's day 1 and she isn't cleared by any means nor has she given any reads that make any sense, other than trusting 2 other semi-useless players to help her town reads.

Says the pony who has been on the same wagon as me almost the entire game, sheeping me at least once.

The Desel wagon was her 3rd failed attempt at getting somebody lynched and her insistence she is gods gift to town is quite annoying.

It was a mostly reaction wagon. If certain things happened it would have stayed but I knew it probably was just going to be something in passing. That it got to L-2 was unexpected though. Also I defer you to the above picture.

@VM

- This is intention to hammer. Claim.

[Rainbowdash]

He still needs to claim.

[Rainbowdash]

I will double vote you for the lynch. Told you im next to invincible this game, since with the ponies I have willing to listen to me I can put anypony at L-1 near instantly.

[Rainbowdash]

Vote VM

There is one.

Im going to go eat soon, do some other stuff. Be back, and if I see you have been around with no claim im going to throw out my other vote.

[Rainbowdash]

I'll even make it simpler: RD, if you are going for me because you still stand by your previous case, I'll accept that reason.

Previous case in addition to it just making sense. Is this the most sure of something I have been, no, but with deadline approaching, me being gone tomorrow, and all of that jazz. I want this done now.



It means claim. You forget im basically (s)he-pony here, and wield the power to make masses do whatever I want. Give me a claim.

Also you have NO idea how much I have wanted to use that picture since I drew this role.

[Rainbowdash]

Can we not post lame rainbow ponie pics anymore?

You know you like them

Right?

Right?



Riiiiiiight?

Also despite being accused of it, im not a hydra. I am a single entity rainbow pegasus pony. A DOUBLE rainbow pegasus pony.

[Rainbowdash]

Rainbow seems like a certain someone I've played with before.

Everypony keeps telling me this. I think I have been accused of being at least half a dozen ponies already, sooner we can move past that better its going to be for everypony.

I guess we are waiting for VM to see if he claims or not. If he posts without it im ending this day.

[Rainbowdash]

@Beck - Can't list them all without ongoing mentions. Its been quite a few though, and its really starting to bug me since it really shouldn't matter. Even if I was an alt, what would you expect me to do? Say oh you ponies got me I am really this other pony?

Like I said, useless discussion, we are moving on. I will keep defering you to previous comments if ponies keep pushing it.

VM is at L-1, and I can feel my hooves itching to put in that last vote. He needs to claim, the whole pride thing with EB can wait until after.

@hiphop - I want to say something before a hammer happens because I noticed something which means there is probably no SK or dual scum. Its just better for me to hold on to this for as long as possible just because it allows natural reactions from ponies instead of forced ones.

[Rainbowdash]

I'm not sure if RD and Elli realize this is my lynch. Arguing over who has the power when

I obviously do

, for today at least.

Not that it matters though at this point. You may have been here longer but driving forces are driving.

If VM has not claimed when I get back from surgery tomorrow there may be some pain killer enduced rage hammer.

[Rainbowdash]

Because he is probably an enmity pony and appears to have lucked into hitting WIFOM early on and/or can't balance games well.

Off to docs, very ironic since Neruz is about to claim. Remember I still want to be around to post something around the time somepony ends the day.

[Rainbowdash]

Because he is probably an enmity pony and appears to have lucked into hitting WIFOM early on and/or can't balance games well.

Off to docs, very ironic since Neruz is about to claim. Remember I still want to be around to post something around the time somepony ends the day.

You should just post it in your next post

No, because if one or two very specific things happen its going to be better not to say anything. Chances are I will be doing stuff, but there is the chance that I can escape holding all cards today.

[Rainbowdash]

IT'S FUCKING (UN)/CONFIRMABLE THE DAY OF, IT'S NOT TOWNTELL IT'S NOTSCUMTELL IT'S JUST ANOTHERTHING FROM RAINBOW "I BLUFF REACTION TEST ABOUT FREAKING EVERYTHING" DASH

I may be more surprised as you that people bought that one. It was just a "Hurry it up" threat more than anything else. Also I am fine, growth removed, in for biopsy, chances of living near 100%, etc.

Neruz needs to claim though, or I will... triple vote him? Day vig him? Post excessive numbers of pony pics?

[Rainbowdash]

I need to decide a few things before hammering here. Vanilla was the only claim from him I would have believed at all given the cult talk, so much for baiting him into fakeclaiming doctor.

Ellibereth is still town, I feel selfless right now, not to mention lost. No clue why you ponies trust Beck as much as you do. Sleuth is town if one of VM and deselby are scum. EB is probably town at this point, actually moreso if VM is town for cool reasons. Implosion is lower on the list then before, but leans town. Thomith is still Pinkie Hooves.

Yeah.

I will let this go another day or so but intention to hammer declared. I ask no pony else to actually hammer because I still want to mull over bringing out my info and other secrets, although I doubt that I need to after that claim.

[Rainbowdash]

The biggest problem I have with Neruz is the hammer he laid down really, it made zero sense from most standpoints. Thinking about it as a town PR, I would expect maybe two other town PRs out there, three at most. We have had one pony basically claim VT already, and a few others hint at it, granted Neruz was one of them with the wild speculation regarding cults.

Thing is, as a PR that means you have about the same chance of hitting a town PR as you do hitting scum, if not slightly better hitting scum. However if you switch it to VT, that means you likely have the same chances, if not even better to randomly nail a town PR who is not claiming. Not to throw more WIFOM into the delicious cupcake batter already, but VM saying they would not claim until somepony not voting them threatened a hammer has a very slight edge to non-VT if town, although it could mean other things as well such as more prideful VT, or simply scum.

Basically, VT makes less sense to hammer since they know that they have a much higher chance of actually hitting town PR in this type of scenario. That mixed with the absolute lack of anything about VM coming from Neruz up until this point, hammer makes no sense from VT to me.

The hammer makes the most sense from scum who feels they are not going to make a deep run in the game and are hoping to snipe a town PR.

Now he is back to calling VM-town?

What?

Vote Neruz

Back to L-1

New pony should hammer after he finishes catching up.

I have nothing else to claim. My previous post and my 675 has everything you need in event of my death tonight. Please read 675 carefully before anypony does anything brash tonight.

[Rainbowdash]

I'm on page 7.
Is Beck still obvscum later?

Everypony else tend to think he is town. I have no idea why they do but I don't have him as a top scum read, maybe he gets third/fourth. Ponies who fight against pony play tend to be scum trying to kill an otherwise joyus game mood however.

@Beck - You can be this pony instead

[Rainbowdash]

New pony should hammer after he finishes catching up.

unvote Vote: Neruz

Idk why this wagon happened. Someone explain before thread lock.

I mean. Really?

[Rainbowdash]

oh stfu. This is your fault. You and your poisoned EoH. Rather it is elements of atonality, discord, and cacophony.

What damn posion? You just hammered one of the ponies that was in it while calling them town!

Who is it then huh? Implosion? Thomith? YOU? New commer Ellibereth? That rounds out the group!

No you do not come in here and pull something like this if you thought that Neruz was town and then blame it on my alliance, when everypony you have been pushing EXCEPT the one you have hammer I got the group to target. Nuh-uh. No.

I still think Neruz was probably scum, but I am not going to let you talk shit about the EoH like that when you do not do much on your own. I mean, claiming that the VM case was yours how vain can you possibly be, and congrats you are now Rarity in the EoH. You may have said "what about VM?" but who does the work and lifting. Me. Ellibereth (who is now Applejack). Get out of here with that. You better hope that Neruz was scum or I am dead by tomorrow or this is freaking war.

[Rainbowdash]

Actually it's probably Ellibereth.

Goodnight.

If I am here tomorrow it will surely be 20% cooler. If not. I will have to take one of them with me.

[Rainbowdash]

Whee captain Kirk riding a pony into battle wearing a fancy black coat and hat mental image.

Screw riding. We are flying, im a PEGASUS pony. It means wings.

You two are going to have to tell me who I am supposed to be at somepoint though so I can add them to the list of ponies I need to play with in order to prove I am not them.

[Rainbowdash]

I counted on plausability of my role existing with EBs role.

Vote EB

[Rainbowdash]

*counter

Basically my role + his role both for town make no sense.

[Rainbowdash]

You ponies. Really?

I am not a double voter.

I am not vanilla. My role makes me think EB is probably lying about his role, so I am counterclaiming him based off what I expect to appear in the game. My role is the entire reason I have been saying there are no two faction, and no SK. I still am entirely sure of that fact, it just does not balance out that way. Remember where I gave my "look at this and other post" speech? All that holds true, I encourage all town PRs to read those posts closely before submitting actions.

End this day.

[Rainbowdash]

Voided remains scum. BTW.

You can explain why this is, while we wait.

Actually it would be far from a surprise as I have already said, it was actually more of a towntell for EB if you are town than scum.

Banshee after replacing into a prob-town (like top three town if EB does flip scum - which he better) spot gets call of if they want to post thoughts today or try and ride out the night

unvote

To stop the self-hammer until Banshee chimes in.

[Rainbowdash]

Elements of Harmony V3.0

Rainbow Dash (Loyalty) - Rainbowdash
Applejack (Honesty) - Ellibereth
Twilight Sparkle (Magic) - Llamarble
Fluttershy (Kindness) - Banshee
Pinkie Pie (Laughter) - Thomith
Rarity (Generosity) - Neruz

[Rainbowdash]

The Elements of Harmony has good intentions but they have been infiltrated and they will crash and burn and bring the rest of the town down too.

You have only one of us in your top five scum picks. Stop attacking my alliance.

So long Nightmare Moon.

Vote EB

[Rainbowdash]

Since my role is more effective if I do not claim what it is, I am going to go with this instead.

My role more heavily suggests that there is a single scum faction and no SK then EB is lying about his claim. I would nearly bet the game on this being single scum and that the only threat, as anything else hooves the evil modding line. Still I am not too sure about EB being town, the even night only aspect of his role is the only reason I am not going to try and power through his lynch still, since with that I can maybe see the two of us together, seems unlikley though. It seems everypony else is fairly convinced he is town though at this point, which I may have to take into account here during N1. I do not want to say anything else about my role, and will not unless I am forced to claim.

Thomith continues to make me pull my mane out with his train of thought that appears to constantly jump the tracks only to somehow end up on a new set of tracks headed an entirely opposite direction.

Very confident in my Neruz-town read at this point simply because I can't believe anypony but a VT pony would get caught up in the whole cult thing. As non-VT, it was obvious even without doing the necessary busy work to hunt down that information. I would assume as scum it would be just as obvious.

WV and Beck continue to really really bug me on a gut level. Somepony needs to remember to look at them when I am gone sometime midgame-ish.

Sometime today, quite possibly soonish, I will get a vote up.

@mod

- Going back to Cloudsdale this weekend. I may not be able to post during that time but should be able to.

[Rainbowdash]

Ninja'd! Okay, before you go, Rainbowdash, do you have a percentage figure on how sure you are that EB is fake-claiming? Based on your own logic?

If he claimed full JK, I would be pushing him fully. I really am torn right now, I do think he is telling the truth about having a roleblock based ability here regardless of alignment. 50-50? I really don't know. Its not something that I would have done if he is town, but I am a basic pony for the most part. I do not even like even and odd night roles.

The reaction and having time to think it over have me second guessing the EB thing, as if he is town it has a direct effect on me and how I need to progress. Still think im going to get NKed and do aim for that to an extent if you get my drift from that one last thoughts post I had a ways back. That said I

never

want EB to target me with his action, and want him to just acknowledge that statement.

@WV - Its mostly a gut thing. Your slot feels off to me, and has the entire game. I want ponies to remember that since its going to be a miracle for me to see a mid-late game. Also please, I know my role and I know balance enough to get by. There should not be a SK or a second mafia with my role in a game this small. If there are I will have words for the mod.

@hiphop - You have gotten really quiet. Whats going on with your reads?

[Rainbowdash]

So you got the

entire voting bloc

to vote us over a

gut read

?

You never got ran up. I just want ponies to watch you in the future since I am not going to be around forever.

[Rainbowdash]

I really like the llama list. I would however move EB from scum to null/null-scum.

That is a read I need to cement by tonight.

@Beck - I see things playing out badly? Both roles CAN exist, as he didnt claim from the "instant death" list, but I just have a hard time being comfortable with that claim since its smack dab in the grey area of believeable or not. Not sure what you want as an answer there.

[Rainbowdash]

@Beck - Explain why VM is scum.
@hiphop - Explain why Thomith is scum. Lets say I claimed mason with Thomith, who is scum then?
@VM - Finished the hiphop case yet?

I will vote one of the above three in the near future.

[Rainbowdash]

My read on him is WIFOM based, but I do not doubt it. You would have to do that one with me pulling the other way hard.

[Rainbowdash]

Lets make a deal.

Vote VM

No he didn't claim. Neruz hammer shennanigans pulled the wagon onto him.

[Rainbowdash]

Arbitrary rankings are passe.

If we are using them though we should lynch VM based off my arbitrary numbers who is 5 and 3/4 cupcakes in the hole followed by Beck at eleven hooves down. You are at a four. Simply a four.

Basically explain them or don't bother with them.

Game needs action. Remind me why we moved the wagon away from VM again? Oh yes, Neruz quickhammered him. Then we all decided Neruz was town.

So why is the wagon not back? Good question Dashie! Thanks for that [Insert Pony Name here], that is why you are the element of [Insert Element Here] or possibly in the consideration to be one. Lets move it back!

[Rainbowdash]

@Rainbow: I'm already voting VoidedMafia.

Thanks for that

Banshee

, that is why you are the element of

Kindness

or possibly in the consideration to be one.

Pre-emptive conversations. Gotta love 'em!

[Rainbowdash]

We should talk about my role less and talk about why the wagon on VM disappeared and is still gone when the pony who caused the wagon to disappear by hammering has since then been ruled probably town by everypony and their mothers.

[Rainbowdash]

Everyone ignoring the Beck scum slip: Why don't you think it was a slip? And even if you're unsure, why are you overlooking the fact that his flail defense was that his magical phone causes him to forget to add entire phrases to his sentences?

Beck is on a shortlist. We need a lynch though and its VM who is back at L-1 and needs to claim.

[Rainbowdash]

Those kills make no sense. EBs role might make more sense now if we assume this is a weak power role game, but the fact that he got passed on for the kill for BECK (who obviously killed Sleuth) gives me twitches all over there. However if we can lynch scum today he is screwed as scum, anytime before lylo for that matter.

Thomith is not obviously town, but he is probably town at this point.

It now is time to remedy my early missread of a certain pony.

Vote Implosion

WV I could be swayed too, an implosion+WV team makes a whole lot of sense.

Implosion called VM somewhat off early on, then promptly began to ignore him for others, eventually ending up with him as a slight town read. VM actually ignores implosion entirely. There are two refrences to him, once in asking him for a suspect and once for asking him a pointless question.

[Rainbowdash]

@Rainbowdash:

How has Beck's flip affected your opinion of EB's claim?

It adds up more now with a second night specific role. When you see more of the big picture things start to change. In this case there is a pattern of weaker roles, as opposed to simply what EB claimed. I see what I am looking at fitting into that more since stuff has less potential to be haywire.

Never expected a vig of any type though, thats borderline cruel.

@WV - How about posting/quoting what you had on Thomith for the rest of us instead of just saying its there. Anything new too would be nice.

[Rainbowdash]

So I think Neruz is town here
EB, Elli and Thomith are probably town, would not be shocked from a scum flips but I don't expect one. EB is running a dangerous gambit if he is scum so I give him benifit of the doubt. Scum need to basically sweep from here on out for him to have a chance as scum that transcends 1v1.
One thing bugs me about hiphop, but its small and I am not concerned about it much right now since its probably just being paranoid. He probably should be my second strongest town read here.

So that leaves: WV, llama, Banshee and implosion. I think all remaining scum are in that group, scum also were not desperate to get rid of me. Obviously llama-WV are out as partners. Probably llama-implosion as well.

More later.

Still happy enough about my vote.

[Rainbowdash]

If Evil Bullet is the jailkeeper, and Rainbowdash is scum, her claim is likely to get EB to use his power on her, thus controlling its use tonight and presenting WIFOM tomorrow. EB will rightly claim that he jailkept her, and RBD will proclaim that she is somehow semi-cleared by this.

Actually I do not want EB to target me, as I already said. I know a few town ponies probably have a good enough idea of why I didn't get killed given reactions yesterday and today.

[Rainbowdash]

Respond to 1239. Do you agree, and if not, then why are both you and EB alive?

Dunno if I agree or not really.

EB could easily be scum, which is why neither of us died which I was shocked at. Also as I said, the scum flip from VM is less of a town tell than a town flip was. Not fully convinced of him being town, but I still lean him being town. I could see scum being afraid of killing me, and leaving EB due to shifty claim. Would be happy with one of us getting killed to clear him a bit if he was town though.

[Rainbowdash]

So I think Neruz is town here
EB, Elli and Thomith are probably town, would not be shocked from a scum flips but I don't expect one.

Can you justify these reads, even briefly?

The attempted hammer from Neruz without a claim, and the fact that I really had a decent town read on Neruz to start. I have him as my top town read at this point, no reason to doubt that.

EB I think was parked too long on the VM wagon without trying to come off it. I disliked him taking as much credit for VM as he did, but I really can't fault him for the Beck push since I thought he was scummy.
Elli is town for helping actually push the VM wagon, and his reaction post legitimate hammer felt pretty town to me.
Thomith because of the pushing between VM and him circled back way too many times to be bussing.

Why did Implosion go from being one of your top town reads and one of the only ponies you can trust to being probable scum? Which flip caused that radical change?

I looked back and he works really well as scum. I actually noted that he was in my null/scum area in my night read list. The flip is what changed it though for me.

What is your view on Llamarble specifically? Why is he an unsuitable scumpartner for the two people you mentioned?

I want to call him town, but he works fairly decently as a partner to VM again. I get vary paranoid over him.

Why would you say that EB is probably town but change that to could easily be scum within the space of a few hours?

Im torn on him. I think that he is town, but the both of us being here makes me paranoid over him again. It wouldn't shock me to see him as scum at all, out of the ponies I am calling town, he is most likely to be the wrong read, but I do think he is town. Lots of cyclical comments I know, but I am not sure what to do about that pony. I just think if we nail down scum today or tomorrow, he is screwed either way.

Most importantly, why didn't you comment on something that by your own admission you were shocked at? Why weren't YOU the one asking these questions and having these suspicions?

No point in spreading paranoia. I am not interested in an EB lynch so I am not going to do anything that raises the chances of one. Depending on what happens today I may start treating him differently.

I almost want to say massclaim. We have one dead PR, one claimed and I already claimed non-VT.

[Rainbowdash]

How would massclaim benefit the town, in your view? Do you intend to fullclaim if a massclaim is approved?

No of course I wouldn't fullclaim if we were massclaiming she says with dripping sarcasam. Massclaim means everypony, not everypony but me.

I am thinking massclaim because its rare to have a game with more than four town PRs if that many, and my role is far more useful with that knowledge. Besides, it can help us figuring out the legitimacy of the EB claim.

[Rainbowdash]

Banshee/WV/Imp contains at least one scum and I would not be at all surprised by 2.
Pretty sure there's nobody else I'd be interested in lynching today.

May be true. Tack yourself and EB in there and I would be shocked if its false.

Not seeing benefits of massclaim unless you think some kind of awesome strategy can be devised.

I feel like EB claim is pretty legit already.

I think it would cement EB and myself as town, maybe help in other ways. Although if there is no other scum PR I would doubt there are more roles. Just think it can really help peg down EB or myself, if anypony gets serious about lynching either of us, we are massclaiming.

@Banshee - Im not voting you because you are not my strongest scum read. Just because you work with the most ponies doesn't mean you are the best pick. Imposion is really bad when you connect him to VM. WV doesn't look too bad, but I just really have felt bad about that pony the entire game. Didn't we go over this exact same thing earlier this game?

Implosion looks like scum, and works with just about everypony. He technically works with llama even, but not too well. Like I said though, all I need to do is get scum lynched today and we are going to start having cleared ponies through EB.

[Rainbowdash]

@Rainbowdash:

If EB is scum, then your plan cannot work. Your plan completely depends on EB being town, but you claim not to know if he's town or not. He could very easily be scum, according to you.

Actually massclaim can easily help ID him as town or scum, which is part of the reason I like a massclaim.

Which is it? Because you seem VERY confused today about everything. For someone who's had definite views all through the last very long day, suddenly you believe both that EB is town enough to confirm people and scum enough to be suspicious... Implosion was your right hand man all day yesterday but today he's the most likely scum. You pushed VoidedMafia's lynch rather halfheartedly yourself but you consider it bussing when others do it to pretty much the same degree.

I tend to be best in the early game, after that my play goes down a little.

How is EB town enough to confirm others though? Regardless of what comes from massclaim it can help with figuring out if EB is town or not. No other claims, he is town for sure. If there are more, then maybe but it can actually help us figure out what he is for sure.

Implosion looked town yesterday to me, im not denying that. I do think that he is scum though today when you look at the interactions between him and VM. He passes VM off as townish early and continues to ignore him for the rest of the day. VM comments on imposion a couple times, but also ignores him for the most part.

You are going to have to explain how I "halfheartedly" pushed VM though.

[Rainbowdash]

Like I said though, all I need to do is get scum lynched today and we are going to start having cleared ponies through EB.

This is the plan to which I referred.
Not the massclaim plan, which I do not support.

This particular quoted comment is not made by someone who thinks EB is possibly scum.
Therefore you do not think EB is

possibly

scum.
Either you know he is, and you're scum with him, or you know he's town because you're scum, or you know he's town for some other reason.

Or by including "lynch scum today" means that anypony EB targets could not have submitted a NK, meaning that as town or scum he has to clear somepony every night.

That seems pretty wishywashy to me. Llamarble actually even suggested wagoning EB during this period of time, too.

Well I disagree.

[Rainbowdash]

Or by including "lynch scum today" means that anypony EB targets could not have submitted a NK, meaning that as town or scum he has to clear somepony every night.

Okay. As scum, EB could claim to target any one he chooses. Let's say he says he targets you and puts in a NK on me. You're cleared, except not really. You could be scum, or you could be town. If EB is scum NOTHING he says is guaranteed true. You're assuming his role is truthful even if his alignment is not known... what makes you believe that to be the case?

Yeah but he has to keep clearing, and/or killing, scum suspects. So I think he gets caught in the end with a scum lynch today.

[Rainbowdash]

It may really be worth it to massclaim.

We have a dead PR, me, and two claimed VT. Thats not too much left.

[Rainbowdash]

Yeah I want to massclaim. Half the game is already claimed, my role is better if I know what is out there, and it should be able to clear up EB for sure if he is town.

[Rainbowdash]

Well!

That settles the "Do we massclaim" question.

Also I guess Llama starts, popcorn, end with hiphop/me

[Rainbowdash]

No, I don't expect she is lynchable. I think the only reason they haven't started a serious wagon on me already is that they aren't sure exactly what I know and exactly how bad my cardflip will be if they lynch me. But being lynched is worth it if people start THINKING and stop letting Rainbowdash lead the town in circles.

In Circles!
In Circles!
In Circles!

But no. So your entire arguement is that I led the town in circles that by after pushing hiphop a little I laid into my partner and pushed that until somepony fakehammered, and eventually brought it right back onto my parter instead of the claimed VT. Also that I apparently had daytalk and did absolutely nothing to VM of how to get out of me pushing him when it was obvious that I had some of the most sway out of anypony?

Stretch more. Paranoia less.

[Rainbowdash]

Rainbow soft-claimed a role that is so unique that it isn't even normal. (Yes Rainbow, read the wiki if you haven't already on your role). Except it can be placed into games, based on the one non-normal role. And after the cult thing of it not being normal, I highly doubt that Rainbow would not soft-claim a role that wasn't normal.

Yeah.

That may not be my actual role but an attempt to have scum not kill me. I am non vanilla still though. My role still heavily supports no multi-scum or SK though, not that vig hasn't already.

[Rainbowdash]

Oh, I know your role. Don't doubt that. In fact if you ever feel like claiming, can I do the honors, if we are both still alive?

If you want to, but I would be impressed if you have this one right. I am not a one trick pony.

I think you've been remarkably changeable in your reads without a lot of explanations about why those reads changed dramatically and I think Implosion is perhaps the poster child for that sudden shift without an explanation. I think you're arguing for a plan where EB clears everyone without ever thinking about that plan and just how farfetched it would be in reality.

Don't think, ACT!

But if we lynch scum today, if EB is town I just forced three scum kills. Top that.

Also I don't completely disagree with llama being scum here. I need to ask the mod if its ok to quote something.

[Rainbowdash]

I still lean away from Thomith-scum just given how long VM planted himself on that wagon.

I have him as depry-town, but still more likely then not town.

Looking through VM again, EB is probably town given how much he challenged me on having EB in the EoH during the first day.

So (copying a bit from my night notes)

1) Neruz is town for that hammer
2) hiphop is town due to the VM pushing of him
3) Ellibereth is very likely town due to early VM wagon and reactions post hammer
4) Banshee is very likely town due to everything related to deselby wagon.

Then you add in EB, me, thats six ponies (EoH yay).

Rest just get bumped off in the approximate order of implosion, WV, llama, Thomith. Thats a game ponies!

[Rainbowdash]

So Rainbow am I right?

Probably, but Neruz was my top town read last night either way. What just happened probably isn't a massive tell though, just slight.

I thought VM was on Thomith for a long time though. Maybe thats wrong in my notes.

[Rainbowdash]

Guys. I think Banshee is scum. I'll get back to you on this.

Maybe, he falls behind quite a few ponies for me, think on a list he would be 5th/6th.

Deselby wagon was just off like a shot

Deselby - RainbowDash, implosion, VoidedMafia, Thomith, Sleuth

In about 20 posts.

I guess this actually means no more than one of: Banshee, implosion, Thomith. Maybe even zero. Would be surprised with Banshee-implosion partners after this one.

Looking again I really dislike Thomith-scum at this point, a few of his posts just seem really not in line with VM partner. Plus the VT softclaim, which I really see as townish.

Also I really don't think that Banshee-scum would think they really could take me down and it would attract all types of negative attention to them. Feels like town just trying to get a point across.

[Rainbowdash]

I always though massclaim was something along the lines of "I am X" followed by inverse order of "I did Y" and not everypony saying if they are vanilla or not first.

Apparently not.

I still think implosion should fullclaim and then popcorn continues from there.

[Rainbowdash]

Ok, fine then, I claim watcher. In which case I watched Rainbow last night based on the fact that I know her role, and if scum decided to kill her I would know. Nobody visited Rainbow last night. As I said already Rainbow's role is 2 words beginning with E and B. Banshee claim. Back in 3 hours.

*twitch*

I cannot follow your logic if you think I am what you think I am.

[Rainbowdash]

But what if he doesn't think you are what you think he thinks what he thinks you are?

Before this gets confusing.

He said that he thinks im an elite bodyguard, which makes no sense to watch since I would die if I got killed, lest he thinks that I was going to be RBed and not killed.

Him and me makes me quite uncomfortable though, much more then me and EB and many ponies yet to claim PRs. At least one, maybe even both of scum are in that group.

[Rainbowdash]

Don't think it matters.

Hiphop was close to right about my role though, just normal bodyguard. Which makes me even more paranoid about him since Watcher + BG is somewhat broken.

We already are at

Even JK
Odd Vig
Watcher
Bodyguard
????
another ???? (?)

[Rainbowdash]

llama
thomith
then implosion

After that we try and see if we can't break this game down a bit.

[Rainbowdash]

Guarded EB. Almost submitted no action, but since EB wanted same pony as me dead (Beck) figured the guard was better.

What Ellibereth already said about the first part of that question.

[Rainbowdash]

Why's bodyguard incompatible with multiscums, out of curiousity?

In small games it points away from it to me since the bodyguard saving town still loses town while accidently saving scum does a -2 swing for town (+1 scum, -1 town). Not impossible, but I think its a very poor modding decision, because especially with a day one scum lynch it can be disadventageous to town in the short run to have a bodyguard. Bodyguard, unlike doctor/jailkeeper do nothing to slow down pace of scum kills, just changes who dies, and in a 9:2:2 game, perfect town play with no blocked/x-kills ends in 6 or 5 (D12->N10->D9->N8->D7->N6), likely allowing at most three mislynches, more likely just two.

[Rainbowdash]

I was actually trying to make scum think I was a PGO with some of my breadcrumbs, I even threw in a refrence to PGO at one point.

Whatever. I think im being paranoid and hiphop is town anyways. I dont see anypony who is scum thinking I am an EBG and then not killing me, and it was obvious that hiphop picked up on something before the day ended. I actually thought it was PGO and that might have been why I didn't die, but maybe it could have been because EB was scum and thought that killing me would condemn him due to my soft-counter.

[Rainbowdash]

Paranoid Gun Owner, reflexive kills anypony that targets them regardless of intention.

Doens't matter at this point though.

[Rainbowdash]

So I am on Implosion for the rest of the game. Hiphop is on me. EB roams around in the VTs. Makes it simple.

unvote

Will figure this out tonight. Really tempted to vote EB though, and hiphop still does bug me after the IC.

Scum have to have something else beasty, although the strength of the encryptor really depends on how good the scum ponies are. I would trade an entire goon slot for an encryptor depending on who else was scum.

[Rainbowdash]

Vote WV

EB - I rethought some stuff, you are on implosion tonight with a town flip, along with me. With a scum flip go block some random VT.

[Rainbowdash]

Vote WV

EB - I rethought some stuff, you are on implosion tonight with a town flip, along with me. With a scum flip go block some random VT.

How is this going to be helpful?

Who do you want hiphop to watch?

Im probably being overprotective of implosion since thats the one role that obviously is real. I guess though it would require hiphop-scum to kill himself to get to implosion while clearing me in the process.

I guess just JKing a VT regardless is the right move.

Do you have any opinion on the several misstatements I pointed out by Llamarble? What's the case against WeirdVoigts anyway?

Llama is on a shortlist of mine, thats for sure. I just see the ignoring of VM for a long period of time, then the very quick shuffle of following VMs case followed by the case on him. Not showing up on VM the first pass through but jumping the EB and Beck wagons, just think its a good scum bet there. Then all the gut that keeps saying that he is scum.

[Rainbowdash]

Im thinking

One of [WV/llama]
One of [hiphop/EB]

[Rainbowdash]

Scum in the PRs isn't 100% guaranteed if scum have awesome powers of their own.
I definitely think we find the VT scum first.

Yeah but IC + three roles to guard them?

Scum have to be holding something really good to counter that. More likely EB is scum RBer/JK or hiphop is scum watcher.

Neruz I think is town because I have had that read just about the whole game.

You never really did anything to get VM lynched. You keep calling him scum but keep ending up on the counter wagons. Plus I can really see a you-hiphop team which has the ol' hackles up.

[Rainbowdash]

Llama, the roles make it very unlikely for all the PRs to be town due to how they can protect eachother without having at least a scum RBer and possibly some sort of bypass role.

Just look at BG+Watcher. BG targets watcher, and its a combo that requires a RBer to break. Plus we have THREE roles that can stop a kill on the IC. That makes no sense without some sort of powerhouse. That and hiphop guessing I am an EBG and the kill on Beck makes a little more sense, especially if EB is town.

If all the claimed roles are town, I would expect no goons, which is unlikely because the current games seem to be aimed at dimishing the amount of swing. I would be shocked if EB and hiphop are town, although the problem is they both look town on interactions. I don't want to lynch either of them today due to all that confusion. This should work though.

[Rainbowdash]

Uh, If they shoot the watcher and you die does the watcher see who they shot?

They should since they end up targeting me instead of the watcher. Its basically a redirect.

1shot cop is of order IC strength

No its not. I would always take IC over one shot cop.

tracker is perhaps a bit better than watcher

No its not. I would always take watcher over tracker.

Regardless, it's obvious there's a VT scumbag.
We should get that one first and see what it flips.
Scum will narrow down the PR pool for us in all likelihood anyway.

Which is why I want to lynch WV today.

[Rainbowdash]

Huh... if that true I think it makes Neruz even more likely town since that would really hurt scum to point out.

That mean I watch implosion and hiphop coinflips for which of us he watches while EB throws out a random VT block?

[Rainbowdash]

Ok so I was mixing up VM and WV in my notes for who was voting Thomith.

I guess I would put him in a top three VT lynch simply because I really don't want to see him in an endgame, and Neruz/Banshee/Ellibereth are all very very likely town.

Given the "its not happening" of WV-Thomith though I am not changing at this point.

[Rainbowdash]

Wait a minute who are you voting Rainbow?

WV. I could buy into a one of WV/Thomith though.

[Rainbowdash]

Ok, I will bite on this a bit and see where it goes.

Vote Thomith

[Rainbowdash]

Hell no I'm not JKing imp.

Yeah we know. You are blocking somepony in the vanilla pool. Im keeping Imp safe and after what was pointed out by Neruz, hiphop is going to watch one of us at random.

Thomith should get last words and then the day gets wrapped up.

[Rainbowdash]

unvote

I need to reread this game, really don't want to given how long it is but I really need to.

[Rainbowdash]

I basically agree with the Elli list, although im still tempted to not have Neruz on the lynch list and plug llama in at the very end of it.

Thomith I continue to be torn on, to an extent because I do not really get who would be his partner. This recent play from him just feels like a sudden shift that makes me uncomfortable though. Now there is WV who just works with a whole lot more ponies, and has gone away recently. Also it help with my paranoia of hiphop being scum due to the roles not making as much sense. We had WV detract from the EB wagon to the extent where he started siding with EB against Beck shortly after.

Really am not sure who I am going to go with, im back to leaning WV at this point, but either of those two ponies being lynched is probably a good thing.

[Rainbowdash]

Is this a challenge to a picture battle?


No pony stands a chance.

Due to this

It is, which is why i find neruz scummy, who votes if you don't know if it is a hammer or not, which was neruz's reason (which i don't believe) without a claim, hardly anybody hammers without a claim so why vote in case your vote was the hammer?
Nerus has definately shot up my scum list after this.

I will do this

Vote WV

That quote from Thomith doesn't sound like scum whos partner just got hammered, infact it sounds like Thomith expected a town flip.

[Rainbowdash]

Im not too sure anypony realized the first one given how fast it happened. Either way, again with no offense to Pinkie Hooves/Thomith, but I don't think he would have realized this, and I don't think that a partner of his would have that quickly either. MAYBE VM did given his posts, but would be against anypony having noticed that let alone passing on the message for Thomith to attack Neruz like he expects VM to flip town.

[Rainbowdash]

Giving scum a watcher in a game with an innocent child makes its own awesome kind of sense.
Town PRs have obvious target -> scum watches target -> Scum kills the PRs.
Grey used to play magic, I'll bet he loves synergy like that and the bodyguard - IC combo.

Yeah thats what I said about five pages ago. Three defensive roles (Watcher, BG, JK) and one confirmed beyond reason town role do not mesh. My only pause on hiphop is that he doesn't look like all that much of a partner to VM, but at this point, it shouldn't effect the WV lynch too much.

[Rainbowdash]

I love how everypony simply seems intent on destroying all my hypothesies.

@WV - Who is scum with hiphop?

[Rainbowdash]

i almost want to just lynch hiphop today... i'm honestly not sure if wv would bus here. meh. it's probably better to wait a day at least.

I can see this, problem is I had a townish read on hiphop yesterday, and if he thought I was an EBG, I really would have been the N1 kill for scum instead of Beck which really confuses me at this point. It almost feels like a from EB kill, but why would there be a even-night JK for scum is the biggest question there.

Even though im almost thinking this could be a town flip, I am going to move back because I don't think there is going to be getting around the paranoia of it all.

unvote
Vote Thomith

[Rainbowdash]

Why aren't we lynching WV?

I would vote either.

[Rainbowdash]

I am curious why nobody has brought up the below

In the event that multiple protective roles target the same player, the bodyguard protection will be consumed after any doctor/Jailkeeper protections, but before any Bulletproof protections.

Which means if Rainbow, EB, and scum target Implosion, nobody dies. I can watch Rainbow, and see if scum try to go around. Of course this wastes EB's roleblocking ability, but I think it is a viable option.

I would not be totally against this but I think it should be a coinflip of if he targets implosion or a VT. If we lynch scum he IS blocking VT ponies for the rest of the game though. Preferably the most benifical to the town if they are town first.

P-edit Didn't you already show that picture?

Not sure but it felt like a good spot to use it. Sure I have a database of probably 500ish, but that one seemed like a good one there.

[Rainbowdash]

unvote
Vote WV

Can we just lynch one of these ponies already?

Im going to re-side the the part of me that says im being paranoid about Thomith. This may also be the part of me that wants Thomith to flip town due to pride reasons.

[Rainbowdash]

Llama, are you scum? You are making me think you are scum again. Protecting a VT is a horrible idea. Very horrible. I would be thrilled seeing anypony flip VT after a NK.

Plus my gut as been going "Hey! Hey Dash! Llama is town for reasons you can't put a good finger on. Look closely, his votes do line up with what scum might have done, especially near the end of the day. Why aren't you pushing him instead of TweedleDee and TweedleDerp? You should vote him. Do it. Do it now. Stop being suckered by WIFOM, do it."

[Rainbowdash]

hiphop-llama
hiphop-banshee
EB-WV

I think its one of those three pairs.

I will not vote EB becaue he only can be scum with WV to me at this point.
I will not vote Thomith because I don't think he is scum with either hip or EB

I would vote either WV or Llama today. WV because it would nearly confirm EB-town if he flipped town, Llama because he is best partner to hiphop.

Time will tell which.

[Rainbowdash]

@Rainbow:

Why would you not vote me? Also, would you be willing to vote hiphop?

I lean you town so do not want to vote you. Don't want to lynch hiphop today either really just due to early gut and if he is town it will really help town.

How would WV flipping town clear EB? Is it because of the fakehammer thing? Does the existence of the daytalk encryptor change that view any for you?

Will go through this more tomorrow, all I did was lable everypairing "not possible, very unlikely, possible and good pair"

Interestingly enough giving (0, .3, .6, .9) to each, my final list (excluding Elli because I think he is town enough to leave off the list) I have points of

Neruz - 3.0
Banshee - 3.0
WV - 2.7
hiphop - 2.7
Thomith - 2.4
Llama - 2.1
EB - 1.5

This is just something that is tripping me out against since it goes against quite a few of my reads with the exception of EB-town. This is due to things like no real reason to think Banshee is NOT scum with anypony, and things like EB working with next to no pony (nearly all of his points are from WV-EB). I almost want to just vote WV again. Llama really is making me paranoid with these last few posts though.

[Rainbowdash]

unvote
Vote Neruz

Ok then. I can go with the lynch of the pony who works with just about everypony else.

[Rainbowdash]

If anypony thinks I will ever protect anypony but implosion they need to think again.

I would say hiphop coinflips me and implosion while EB coinflips implosion and a VT to increase odds of busting hiphop, blocking kill and keeping me alive.

If we lynch scum implosion is on a VT though.

[Rainbowdash]

Stop this wagon.

Ok.

unvote

@Elli, implosion and EB - Who do we lynch?

[Rainbowdash]

Its in the

hiphop/Neruz/WV pool for today

I lean Neruz

If hiphop is scum, he is a good pick.
If somehow hiphop AND EB are town, he is a great pick.

Hiphop is not a bad lynch though. Just if he is town its a 50-50 chance of him catching scum tonight.

[Rainbowdash]

I forget, why are we just letting Ellibereth run around making posts like 1744 without any scrutiny?

because me reading this game is totally unnecessary at this point

Yeah this.

Implosion is town
I am town
EB is town
Elli is town

In that order. Yes. That order.

That is four NKs for scum to deal with. In the meantime the other group (which I still want Banshee and maybe Thomith [if hiphop is scum] off it) is

Banshee
Llama
Neruz
Thomith
WV
Hiphop

Should be winnable either way but I want to get it done fast.

[Rainbowdash]

Let me think about a hiphop lynch for another 12 hours or so.

I can get behind it but I need to convince myself to get behind it still if that makes any sense.

[Rainbowdash]

Ok.

Thats enough.

We are going a brand new way with all of this.

unvote
Vote Llama

I am not willing to say that hiphop is obviously town. Infact I still have serious doubts regarding that pony, BUT if he is town, him being alive essentially ends the game for scum.

I will lynch Llama or Neruz. No pony else. Third one out is WV but only over hiphop.

Llama has proposed so many crappy ideas though its a tipping point. He DOES work with VM. His end of the day stances with relation to VM are sketchy beyond reason, I don't like his attack of Banshee. He works with hiphop, Neruz and Thomith. I still think that one of Llama/Elli is scum due to the VM comments on lurkers.

He is my prefered lynch.

Anypony who thinks he is scum, or hiphop is town, counterwagon is here.

[Rainbowdash]

I really dislike post day one.

Reallllllllly do.

HOW ABOUT I CHANGE MY MIND FOR THE ZILLIONTH TIME

unvote

I need to reread this game but I really don't want to.

[Rainbowdash]

This game. Making me feel like that for the last week or so now.

vote hiphop

If this is a scum flip WV is getting blocked unless EB says otherwise, since that pony is most likely to get mislynched down the road if they are town.

This day just needs, for lack of a better word, closure.

[Rainbowdash]

I am assuming WV lynch?

[Rainbowdash]

I was right about that pony afterall?

Awesome.

Will gladly take 4/5 right on my mid day one alliance. Pony power.

Vote Llama

Really doubt scum stopped killing here unless its Banshee/Elli, but even then there are three clears and Thomith who is essentially clear to the point where I will hunt down anypony who calls him scum again if I get NKed.

[Rainbowdash]

LOLWUT?
THAT'S TWO GAMES IN THE LAST MONTH I'VE BEEN TOWN AND ROLEBLOCKED ON A NIGHT WITH A NOKILL.
I'm guessing scum tried to NK me then (AREN'T I JUST A TERROR) or just chose not to submit a kill hoping for a townlynch, or plain failed.

But yeah scum not killing here was kind of dopey since it just gives town an additional lynch.
Which is going to be spent on me and spoil my never-gets-lynched record even harder.

Like I said, the only ponies who could feaseably run down the game are Elli and Banshee. Thomith too but again, don't think that Derpy Pony would have started no killing this early.

WV and Neruz would have had to kill because they were next on the chopping block, so I can't buy they decided to take a pass.

Either way, EB needed to be killed last night for scum to manage a win chance.

Now they again may need to pass on the N4 kill, giving town another couple lynches to hunt them down. Essentially no killing also took away thier ability to kill N4, giving up two lynches. As I said there are only three ponies who could possibly run down that lynch chain, and I think even they would rather just bump off EB to not have to worry about it.

Not sure why im arguing with you, might just be in that mood, but there is zero way we lynch anypony else today.

Sure argue it if you want, but really, put yourself in our hooves, there is no way we can lynch anypony else.

If I had to order at this point

Llama
WV
Neruz
Elli
Banshee
Thomith

We get four lynches to finish this.

Maybe I will think about this a bit, but... we have four lynches so again I need to think about it some. All I know is that I would really not like to be forced to choose between Elli-Banshee on the last day right now. We can throw darts and have a 2/3 chance of winning, taking thomith off the table that jumps to 80%.

Just thinking, in your hooves I would have gone for EB last night. It would remove one pony from the mislynch pool, but take away one town lynch. Cant imagine anypony passing that up outside of Elli/Banshee/Thomith. Occamz razor and such says so.

Anypony nokilling basically forces an endgame with implosion and three of Thomith/Banshee/Elli/Llama. Then again killing does the exact same thing but with no implosion.

*shrug*

Maybe. Need to think. But I can't believe scum would not risk me being dumb enough to have protected implosion over EB, which I wasn't, but still. EB is public enemy #1 to scum right now.

That and killing was ~+7%EV (33 to 40) to scum using RNG calling Thomith lynchable, which he is not.

[Rainbowdash]

Also I pushed for massclaim that caught us scum.

No you didn't, you were all concerned about massclaim until you thought Banshee claimed something

Im torn on the hiphop play. I would have been too as scum, its a good role, but after massclaim, what use is a watcher? None really except for hoping for town cred, problem there was watcher was the odd role out. If we ever decided to lynch a PR, hiphop was doomed, while I wanted to lynch VT, I wanted to lynch VT who worked well with hiphop which was why I was after you and Neruz for the most part.

Then the D1 late play, VM is scum, VM is scum, then suddenly getting way into lynching EB, even when I admitted that the roles could work together afterall just that I didn't like them.

I dunno, I could have seen you try and make that play as scum, then take out EB risking having a clear WV or somepony like that, hoping that the town cred could net you an endgame with Elli/Banshee or something along those lines.

Im probably not moving my vote here, and going to bed. Hopefully after classes tomorrow this game is over, that would be awesome.

[Rainbowdash]

You ponies can't be this Derpy can you?

Either llama got blocked or scum no killed.

Llama did not get 'saved', no scum is going to kill a VT like that. There are three CONFIRMED town, kill going through creates another. That would end the game. Stop being derpy.

Llama is probably scum, as scum would have killed last night 100%. I cannot believe that any scum would have tried to start running this down all the way, since EB is a massive threat, and if he died last night they are in a good position where its about a 50% chance to win randomly.

Put yourselves in his hooves. You would have had to take the risk killing EB as either

1) EB died, no pony completely clear
2) I die, somepony clear, EB dies next night

Either situation, they reach a three player designer endgame likely with Elli and Banshee. In such a situation anypony would probably be behind, except somepony who was able to get massive town credit for taking out hiphop. Hiphop was dead as soon as we decided to lynch a PR, that was obvious, and the watcher is useless once massclaim happened. I would have done the exact same thing hiphop did here. Take down hiphop, try to kill EB, lynch out of the neruz/WV/thomith pool twice while killing the clear and implosion, hope the hiphop stuff takes him all the way in the endgame.

Its Llama probably, he made the right move yesterday but got unlucky.

D1 points to it
My gut on VM and the lurkers point to it
Putting myself in his hooves points to it
The JK points to it
Occamz Razor screams it

Somepony end the game.

[Rainbowdash]

If WV wasn't even online I could possibly swing that lynch since night seemed short.

Want to think a couple second more though before I shift.

Neruz has made posts today that show he hasn't been thinking about NKs, which returns me to liking him. Hiphop also jumped on llama and llama being lynched still led the a dead hiphop quickly due to balance.

unvote
Vote WV

If its either of those two ponies though im extra-proud of my awesome play, possibly moreso if its WV one since it would be one of my best town read games ever.

[Rainbowdash]

Yeah good point.

Im done derping.

unvote
Vote Llama

It actually makes MORE sense that he wasn't online if he is VT, why log onto an alt to do nothing?

[Rainbowdash]

We all got a PM about the start of the game.

That would include WV.

If he's town, why isn't he here?

My eyes say he was notified about the game starting

I want to say Neruz is more town then most others at this point given the level of theory incompetence he is showing here.

Thomith I still think is town. WV I almost want to say is town due to no kill, it seems like if anypony needed to get rid of the roles it would be him. Maybe I am overthinking this, but lack of kill almost points to a pony in a decent position or a block. If town came to the conclusion that scum stopped killing Neruz and WV would be gone in ten second flat.

So yeah.

I am keeping my vote where it is.

[Rainbowdash]

Maybe/Probably

See I have a bit of a problem here.

I think Thomith is town for what happened with hiphop, really don't think that was a bus. Neruz I still think is town here.

Also good, implosion sees what I see.

I would say if I had to make an order...

Llama
WV
Neruz
Banshee
Elli
Thomith

Banshee just makes me a little on edge still, I would almost be happy lynching him before Neruz on gut

I still want to consider WV instead, but those two are the ones that need to be finished off to end the game.

unvote
Vote WV

Your move again everypony else

[Rainbowdash]

No.

What are you doing Dash, this is horseapples, stick to the plan. Stop thinking, just act. Its what you are best at.

Unvote
Vote Llama

@EB - Since im dead tonight, remember to call your N4 target D4.

[Rainbowdash]

I just think Neruz is town because he views implosion as the biggest threat to scum. I also had a bit of a town read on Banshee due to that deselby wagon I pulled off, but now that hiphop is scum, its a little less strong of a tell.

Elli I don't think would be that passive yesterday as scum, instead he would just have blasted hiphop or pulled in a different direction. Again though I would really dislike to be forced to pick between Banshee and Elli.

Thomith is still prob-town. I rarely see anypony bus as hard as hiphop would have needed to.

[Rainbowdash]

*nod*

Banshee pushing Thomith is one of the things making me twitch about that pony.

Gut is screaming "Dashie, you need to put Banshee over Neruz in lynch order" again and again.

So yes. Lets do that. Awesome.

[Rainbowdash]

I feel like we're pretty resolved that both me and WV will get lynched this game.
Can we just lynch him first? It just feels good to say "we lynched scum the first 3 days and won."

Feh

Lets say both of you are town, who would you put up as scum next?

[Rainbowdash]

What about the final pony? We get four lynches here.

Look, for those saying Llama would not have bussed, I really think he was forced to when putting myself in his hooves, a move that has won me games in the past.

You are in the following position

You know there are
IC
BG
EN-JK
5VT
You
Partner watcher

Most ponies have agreed that your partner is scum, and that at least one of the VTs (Ellibereth) is probably town, with you and a second (Banshee) lagging a little behind him, and a few being torn on others. What do you do? Two plans of attack

1) Get VTs lynched. This would mean WV goes, followed by Neruz. At that point you are going to be up for discussion, especially as multiple ponies have their eyes on you. Your partner probably goes immediately after you do. You need to pull off three mislynches to win, when you are probably going to be under heavy discussion starting on the second.

2) Bus your partner. They are a watcher and you have massclaimed, so they are USELESS at this point to you. They are essentially another VT but under massive fire. If it was me that siren in the back of my mind that goes *BUS HIM, BUS HIM* would be wailing. Hiphop was doomed, and for scum was basically a VT, perfect lynch, especially for scum in the aether of the VT reads. With this, he essentially assures that he goes after WV and Neruz, sounds like a deal to me since thats going to creeping up on an endgame. You need to get one more lynch to win the game, but you have a whole lot more town credit to do such.

If I was Llama scum, I would have tried to kill EB in hopes that I was being derpy and protected implosion. Worse case you lose another possible lynch if I protected him, but you still have that sweet sweet town cred.

I would have made that move as him as scum. Would any of you ponies really not?

Llama is scum here.



Bullseye

[Rainbowdash]

I want everypony to check in first either way.

unvote

This may or may not mean I have changed my mind yet. The ambiguity means that I do not know yet either.

[Rainbowdash]

yay

As normal happy with day one play, not so with from there on out.

More later

[Rainbowdash]

RainbowDash was instrumental in moving things forward and spurring discussion, even if his reads weren't the best. Also I really don't understand the EN JK/Bodyguard overlap problem (Again, Llamarble will know what I'm talking about when I say bad setup spec can be a disaster). That being said, Rainbow was very willing to listen to others here, and that proved to be solid for moving the town in a good direction.

Hey hey... day one I was actually pretty spot on with my reads. Went back between hiphop and VM for most of the time before finally taking the wagon back over to VM. Also was 4/5 with my EoH alliance. My post day one reads usually are not as strong, especially if there is a scum flip for whatever reason. Then again im still shocked I saw a D2.

I just really didn't see a weakened protective role (BG) and a second weakened twice protective role all that likely or even work together that well. This probably was due to me trying to draw somepony at some point into claiming doc because that wouldn't happen but meh.

Encryptor is a good and underused role, glad to see that one.