Mini 1221: Vegas Mafia (Over!)

[Hikari Link]

UNVOTE: Timeater
I don't like the L-1 and I'm a little disappointed that people let it hang around as long as it did. Going through my catach up now and I'll vote once I've looked at everything.

[The Tick]

Tick, I've found that making soft attacks is a pretty good scum-tell. For instance, accusing someone of saying things that are off-kilter qualifies as a soft-attack.

if that was the case (cause I don't agree with that line of thinking, personally)

I think what you're saying is, downgrading from intelligent discussion to stream of consciousness posting (when you're the main target of the lynch) is a flabby tell that only a Goon would try to use to ingratiate themselves with the lynch party.

And that don't add up to me.

[hahonryuu]

UNVOTE: empking obviously my vote did nothing to change his habits and while it still seems like active lurking to me <even though this is apparently the way he always is> and I still don't like it, but clearly the vote isn't going anywhere atm.


I guess after empking, after sleeping on it and the like, I wouldn't mind a timeater lynch. I mean he even admits to have been doing scummy things and saying he should be lynched. there is a nagging feeling somewhere deep deep down telling me he's being honest...but that doesn't excuse it I suppose. anyway, with him being so close to lynch I wont actually vote atm since it is still pretty early in the day and putting him back at L-1 doesn't seem too pro right now.

[Hikari Link]

nintendoaddict: or heck, maybe the rage quit was scummy in some way and was relevant to the case?
...
you later claim you were just tired...but i dunno.

Yes, the quitting part made me think even more that DH was acting scummy. I've seen townDH under fire before, and I don't recall him ever getting so mad as to quit. That makes me doubt he was townDH here.

But the thing is, unless you've seen replace out as scum, that doesn't really say anything. He could've been in a bad mood, it could have been worse this time than it was in the past, etc. There are any number of reasons for him to get pissed and replace out, but I can't really see a scum motivation. He could just as easily try to get Timeater mislynched or night-killed. One things pretty certain though, I think we can assume they aren't scum together, cause I highly doubt they would have gone at each others throats like that if they knew they were partners.

scum not gonna let go of me

was thinking about emp, he's screwing up my reads. so is link's ghosting

Yeah, I already explained that, so I've got nothing else to say for myself. Not sure about Empking though.

tick is still scummy so i'll throw my vote back to him.

vote: tick

dj is town
emp+link=at least one scum 100%

If it's 100% that

at least

one of us is scum, then you really should put a vote there. It's 50/50, right?

So let's break down the way I see things right now.

Suspicions

Empking: He's really saying very little and i don't like it one bit, but it really does look like his meta, so it makes it really hard to read him. He may become a potential candidate, but I think it's going to be a little while before I can make a decision on him either way.

The Tick: Vote holding and lack of reads puts him on my list, but again, this looks like his meta, so it's kind of hard to tell. I will have to continue to observe him over time, but if he doesn't start at least posting some reads, then can rest easy with a lynch of him.

don_johnson: I'll give him until tomorrow, just because he is allegedly going to read the thread and post real content. Still gonna be on my list though.

Timeater: Honestly, still seems like a pretty good choice to me. He's gotten a bit townier, but I could still see him as scum and would support his lynch.

I'll give Timeater an opportunity to respond and everyone else a chance to present a better case, but I'm willing to lynch him if nothing conclusive appears in the next 24 hours. Thoughts from others on this?

[Hikari Link]

Apparently I only posted about half of my post. Here's the other half. I think it comes first.

claim: vt

I'll be straight up. I've been scummy as fuck this game. I've said a lot of dumb shit. About Demon - because of the way he construed his arguments, the way he put together his cases - I felt they lacked any sort of empiricism, utterly rooted in passion, and ultimately holding up a sort of "I'm right-your-wrong-no-matter-what" style of logic. He was playing like a medieval inquisitor who wants his witch burned no matter the cost, no matter if he's wrong or right. Evidence of this could be gleaned from one of his first posts, where he says "Town acts like X all the time, Scum acts like Y all the time". I dont normally have split-second changes of heart, but since I did, and I rolled with it - I faced the consequences. My unvoting of demon was strange and should have been questioned. I am not 100% he isn't scum. I'd say I'm 51%.

So that means after all that, the best you have is essentially a null read on him? Cause you know 51% is only about half, right? That's generally null. Just saying, maybe use better percentages in the future? Nitpicking aside, I could see this.

I dont like the way Zdenek has chainsawed for Demon. He's pretty much done it all game. I feel that either Demon is town and Zdenek is scum

OR

they are both scum. Zdenek was too quick to agree to my post about him being linked with Demon. He held on to it and used it greedily.

He mentioed it like twice. And considering you apparently thought DH/Ankamius was town at the time, due to unvoting him, that was a perfectly legitimate argument. If you thought DH was town and thought that his alignment was linked to Zdenek, then what would that make Zdenek?

The way he hopped from me to link then back to me again with the reasoning of a turnip. Trying to mollify Demon with an apology is apparently "the story of blathering scum". His vig was transparent as fuck. If wanted to gambit to get more information, it should NOT have been on Maruchan. I was his number #1 suspect, remember? He tried to justify it with "oh Timeater isn't RESPONDING HE MUST BE SCUM" - what a retarded line of reasoning. Another example of him ammunition-gathering instead of posting with real consequence.

Not too sure about this argument, but I could see the Maruchan pick as a way to find out if a minor scum read would crack if he thought he was dying.

Vote: Zdenek

A LIST!

1. Zdenek- scum
2. Mysterio - null
3. don_johnson - scummy
4. Hellhound1 - null
6. Hikari Link - town
7. hahonryuu - obvtown
8. nintendoaddict1 - scummy
9. Empking - null
10. Twistedspoon - obvtown
11. The Tick - scum
12. Maruchan - town
13. Ankamius - town...

I was trying to figure out what I don't like about this list. Then it hit me, no real explanations, granted, we've seen allusions to some of the suspicions here or there, but those things can change over time as new content is added. I want an updated list with justifications of these reads, not just saying you read them that way. Especially the "obvtown" reads. If they re so obvious, then you must have justification up the ass. I'm not even saying I don't agree with some or all of these, but that's all the more reason you need to justify that shit. Scum can read the flow of the game and composite a list that they think the town will like.

I wasn't saying I got something against vt claims, just that one in particular (because of the meta, he said didn't have time for TS, and just quoted me in his crybaby style. + Next post the misrep). I gotta be honest, I was REALLY tempted to say something like TRACKER or fakeclaim cop just to stick it to this game. But I knew that if I did that I'd only be lynchbait down the line. I WISH I had a PR this game.

I don't really like this statement. Fakeclaiming is super anti-town. Especially if you had been counter-claimed. But you don't even note that, you just say you were worrying about being lynch bait.

speaking of zdenek's vig thing...perhaps no one got to it in my wall < come on guys, dont tell me i did all that for nothing> but AM curious as to what the rest of you think on my thoughts of it being unnecessarily risky. what if a PR was a target? if the PR claimed because they thought they were going to die then he exposed a PR to the mafia and we gain nothing from it really. even with how it turned out, at best we ended up gaining/losing nothing. maybe there is something I missed so, I ask again, what others think about the plan? am I just crazy/overly cautious/reading too much into it? or am I right?

I do agree it was a bit over-kill (not just cuz I was the one that thought I was dead. -.-), but I think it would have been a terribly unlikely move for scum to do. Why play a gambit to FIND scum, when you are scum so you know THEY aren't, and bring unwanted attention to yourself. So as much as I dislike him for (pretending to) killing me, I don't find it as in any way shape or form scum-motivated.

As hahonryuu pointed out here, it could have been a scum ploy to out a PR. Not saying hat was the motivation, but remember that scum would know you aren't scum, so they aren't trying to find scum. Overall, I'm calling it a null tell.

Just curious, how does this work "Pretend my vote is on timeater as I wait for him to claim, but wait I'm voting Maruchan."

it works just how it sounds.

ryu: its nothing personal. everyone plays differently. i have several different styles i employ and i choose which one depending on the game, playerlist, my availalble time, etc. unfortunately, you have drawn "lackidaisical" dj. though this may upset you, you should(by virtue of my record) realize that i am a good player and should thusly be more inclined to work with me than against me. if you are town, then you should be able to trip lackidaisicalscumdj up easier with questions and such. with lackidaisicaltowndj, my answers to your questions should be able to help you solidify your own reads. so whatevz. it is what it is.

Not a shot at you, but technically based on your record alone, you are a mediocre town player and a really good scum player, so that's not a great deal of comfort...

Your post made it sound incredibly conclusive that you plan to end the day.

patently false. my post did not contain an actual vote, which means that everything i did still left timeeater in the same position he was in before i posted. i also clearly asked for more input and explicitly requested that noone hammer. you seem to like the word "incredibly". if you continue to be this "incredibly" ridiculous, i will vote you. in fact,

unvote, vote ankamius

see, i didn't even have to do all that reading and i have found you guys your first scum.(hint: both maruchan and timeeater are likely town at this point.)

your welcome.

Uh, I'm really not inclined to agree with this, especially with how DH was behaving pre-replacement, so... thanks? Also, you knd of did sound like that, so I'm not seeing the argument.

[Ankamius]

I'll give Timeater an opportunity to respond and everyone else a chance to present a better case, but I'm willing to lynch him if nothing conclusive appears in the next 24 hours. Thoughts from others on this?

I can agree with this. The wagon on The Tick looks pretty nice if I start finding Timeater to be town though.

[ender241]

did you put up a replacement slot in the queue, mod?

Yes.

It usually helps to get replacements when you try the replacements queue

the hint's in the name :p

Oh, right. I put it in the mini normal queue will go to the replacements queue, thanks!

[Twistedspoon]

I'll give Timeater an opportunity to respond and everyone else a chance to present a better case, but I'm willing to lynch him if nothing conclusive appears in the next 24 hours. Thoughts from others on this?

I can agree with this. The wagon on The Tick looks pretty nice if I start finding Timeater to be town though.

+1

[Twistedspoon]

did you put up a replacement slot in the queue, mod?

Yes.

It usually helps to get replacements when you try the replacements queue

the hint's in the name :p

Oh, right. I put it in the mini normal queue will go to the replacements queue, thanks!

lol, no worries

[Maruchan]

VOTE COUNT 4:
Zdenek -
Mysterio -
Don_johnson - Nintendoaddict,
Hellhound -
Timeater - Link, Zdenek, Hellhound, Maruchan, Ankamius, Empking
Link (sorry) -
Hahonryuu -
Nintendoaddict -
Empking - Hahonryuu
Twistedspoon -
The Tick -
Maruchan - Tspoon,
Ankamius - Don_johnson

Not Voting - Mysterio, The Tick, Timeater

Seven votes required for the lynch.

Day 1 ends 23:57 4th of september GMT

No more magikarp pictures, please

Woh something happened here. Matt isn't that close to lynch, and alot of votes were on hiplop

Firstly, who the hell is Matt and Hiplop? There's noone (from what i understand) called the former and the latter on this mafia game. Also, i have rechecked the whole Timeater (assuming that Timeater might possibly be called Matt) votes (on him) and they're correct. I think you have got the wrong game...

I'm an idiot ignore me. I mixed this game up with the one right next to it because they started at the same time, have a few of the same players, are about the same length, and I was tired at 4 in the morn

[Hikari Link]

VOTE COUNT 4:
Zdenek -
Mysterio -
Don_johnson - Nintendoaddict,
Hellhound -
Timeater - Link, Zdenek, Hellhound, Maruchan, Ankamius, Empking
Link (sorry) -
Hahonryuu -
Nintendoaddict -
Empking - Hahonryuu
Twistedspoon -
The Tick -
Maruchan - Tspoon,
Ankamius - Don_johnson

Not Voting - Mysterio, The Tick, Timeater

Seven votes required for the lynch.

Day 1 ends 23:57 4th of september GMT

No more magikarp pictures, please

Woh something happened here. Matt isn't that close to lynch, and alot of votes were on hiplop

Firstly, who the hell is Matt and Hiplop? There's noone (from what i understand) called the former and the latter on this mafia game. Also, i have rechecked the whole Timeater (assuming that Timeater might possibly be called Matt) votes (on him) and they're correct. I think you have got the wrong game...

I'm an idiot ignore me. I mixed this game up with the one right next to it because they started at the same time, have a few of the same players, are about the same length, and I was tired at 4 in the morn

But that still doesn't explain what the hell happened there. matt and hiplop aren't even on that list.

[hahonryuu]

I agree with Link that explanations for timeaters reads would be very nice indeed. at the very least seeing his thought process and why he believes those things could help quite a bit.

Also nice to see that, even if not as suspicious of it as I am that someone else recognizes that zdeneks fake Vig is...weird. I mean I've kinda dropped it since maru's post responding to me about it, but it really seems like the risks outweigh the benefits. out of all the players in the game, chances of hitting a town, or worse, a town PR were higher than scum


also something that recently came to mind <maybe im thinking about it too much>, what if they are both scum and they planned on doing that so maru could "claim" and have us all believe he's town because he claimed town under pressure of death, thus we auto assume town <to an extent at least>...but problem being that, for me at least, it worked and I don't wanna lynch maru. but that's nothing but an after thought atm with so little to go on..

long story short its good that at least I'm not the only one questioning the Vig. on some level at least. same with empkings lack of doing...anything. openly at least. good to know my brain isn't completely useless in a game of mafia.

[Maruchan]

VOTE COUNT 4:
Zdenek -
Mysterio -
Don_johnson - Nintendoaddict,
Hellhound -
Timeater - Link, Zdenek, Hellhound, Maruchan, Ankamius, Empking
Link (sorry) -
Hahonryuu -
Nintendoaddict -
Empking - Hahonryuu
Twistedspoon -
The Tick -
Maruchan - Tspoon,
Ankamius - Don_johnson

Not Voting - Mysterio, The Tick, Timeater

Seven votes required for the lynch.

Day 1 ends 23:57 4th of september GMT

No more magikarp pictures, please

Woh something happened here. Matt isn't that close to lynch, and alot of votes were on hiplop

Firstly, who the hell is Matt and Hiplop? There's noone (from what i understand) called the former and the latter on this mafia game. Also, i have rechecked the whole Timeater (assuming that Timeater might possibly be called Matt) votes (on him) and they're correct. I think you have got the wrong game...

I'm an idiot ignore me. I mixed this game up with the one right next to it because they started at the same time, have a few of the same players, are about the same length, and I was tired at 4 in the morn

But that still doesn't explain what the hell happened there. matt and hiplop aren't even on that list.

that is explained by the tired part. my vision was blury. I don't have too incredibly awesome of vision anyways, and when I am tired it was worse. somehow I saw timeater as projectmatt. And I couldn't find hiplop.

[Maruchan]

also something that recently came to mind <maybe im thinking about it too much>, what if they are both scum and they planned on doing that so maru could "claim" and have us all believe he's town because he claimed town under pressure of death, thus we auto assume town <to an extent at least>...but problem being that, for me at least, it worked and I don't wanna lynch maru. but that's nothing but an after thought atm with so little to go on..

long story short its good that at least I'm not the only one questioning the Vig. on some level at least. same with empkings lack of doing...anything. openly at least. good to know my brain isn't completely useless in a game of mafia.

Impossible. He may have planned to do it as scum or town for whatever reason, I don't really care, but collaboration between the two of us is impossible.

There was no N0, scum-talk phase of this game. The thread opened at 5:20, we all received role PMs between 5:20 and 5:45, and at 5:45 he opened confirmation, in-thread. There would have been no time for the scum to plan anything together pre-game, no matter who you suspect the scum-team of being.

[Hikari Link]

also something that recently came to mind <maybe im thinking about it too much>, what if they are both scum and they planned on doing that so maru could "claim" and have us all believe he's town because he claimed town under pressure of death, thus we auto assume town <to an extent at least>...but problem being that, for me at least, it worked and I don't wanna lynch maru. but that's nothing but an after thought atm with so little to go on..

long story short its good that at least I'm not the only one questioning the Vig. on some level at least. same with empkings lack of doing...anything. openly at least. good to know my brain isn't completely useless in a game of mafia.

Impossible. He may have planned to do it as scum or town for whatever reason, I don't really care, but collaboration between the two of us is impossible.

There was no N0, scum-talk phase of this game. The thread opened at 5:20, we all received role PMs between 5:20 and 5:45, and at 5:45 he opened confirmation, in-thread. There would have been no time for the scum to plan anything together pre-game, no matter who you suspect the scum-team of being.

Quicktopic could have been open prior to PMs, he could have sent scum PMs first, and discussion might have been open during in-thread confirmation since it was the confirmation phase. If what you ssay is true, I count about 37 minutes that could have contained discussion.

[Maruchan]

also something that recently came to mind <maybe im thinking about it too much>, what if they are both scum and they planned on doing that so maru could "claim" and have us all believe he's town because he claimed town under pressure of death, thus we auto assume town <to an extent at least>...but problem being that, for me at least, it worked and I don't wanna lynch maru. but that's nothing but an after thought atm with so little to go on..

long story short its good that at least I'm not the only one questioning the Vig. on some level at least. same with empkings lack of doing...anything. openly at least. good to know my brain isn't completely useless in a game of mafia.

Impossible. He may have planned to do it as scum or town for whatever reason, I don't really care, but collaboration between the two of us is impossible.

There was no N0, scum-talk phase of this game. The thread opened at 5:20, we all received role PMs between 5:20 and 5:45, and at 5:45 he opened confirmation, in-thread. There would have been no time for the scum to plan anything together pre-game, no matter who you suspect the scum-team of being.

Quicktopic could have been open prior to PMs, he could have sent scum PMs first, and discussion might have been open during in-thread confirmation since it was the confirmation phase. If what you say is true, I count about 37 minutes that could have contained discussion.

Lets not play outguess the mod m'kay? The quicktopic COULD have been made before the game totally correct. But guess what, scum get the quicktopic link, in their role PMs. Role PMs (for me at least, maybe yours is different. Since you say you think the QT was already opened when game started, maybe you got a role PM an hour before the game started so you could see the QT?) were sent out AFTER the game started. IE: even if QT was made before game started, scum didn't know about it till after game started.

The Day officially started at 5:57. I got my role PM at about 5:30 ish. So yes, scum could have talked for 27 minutes. Which I find is TOTALLY long enough for them to come up with an elaborate day-vig the scum-partner scheme, WHEN THEY COULDN'T EVEN GUARANTEE THE SCUM PARTNER WAS GOING TO LOOK SCUMMY.

I mean lets start being realistic guys? Stop being paranoid (Link), and be realistic.

[ender241]

Regfan replaced Mysterio.

[Hikari Link]

also something that recently came to mind <maybe im thinking about it too much>, what if they are both scum and they planned on doing that so maru could "claim" and have us all believe he's town because he claimed town under pressure of death, thus we auto assume town <to an extent at least>...but problem being that, for me at least, it worked and I don't wanna lynch maru. but that's nothing but an after thought atm with so little to go on..

long story short its good that at least I'm not the only one questioning the Vig. on some level at least. same with empkings lack of doing...anything. openly at least. good to know my brain isn't completely useless in a game of mafia.

Impossible. He may have planned to do it as scum or town for whatever reason, I don't really care, but collaboration between the two of us is impossible.

There was no N0, scum-talk phase of this game. The thread opened at 5:20, we all received role PMs between 5:20 and 5:45, and at 5:45 he opened confirmation, in-thread. There would have been no time for the scum to plan anything together pre-game, no matter who you suspect the scum-team of being.

Quicktopic could have been open prior to PMs, he could have sent scum PMs first, and discussion might have been open during in-thread confirmation since it was the confirmation phase. If what you say is true, I count about 37 minutes that could have contained discussion.

Lets not play outguess the mod m'kay?

That's you, not me. I'm not trying to outguess anyone. I'm stating all of the possibilities. You are not.

The quicktopic COULD have been made before the game totally correct. But guess what, scum get the quicktopic link, in their role PMs. Role PMs (for me at least, maybe yours is different. Since you say you think the QT was already opened when game started, maybe you got a role PM an hour before the game started so you could see the QT?) were sent out AFTER the game started.

Considering the game didn't start until 5:57 and PMs were being sent around at least 30 minutes before the game started by your own admission, that's time that they could have talked.

IE: even if QT was made before game started, scum didn't know about it till after game started.

In what world is 5:57 before 5:30?

The Day officially started at 5:57. I got my role PM at about 5:30 ish. So yes, scum could have talked for 27 minutes. Which I find is TOTALLY long enough for them to come up with an elaborate day-vig the scum-partner scheme, WHEN THEY COULDN'T EVEN GUARANTEE THE SCUM PARTNER WAS GOING TO LOOK SCUMMY.

It never had to be aimed at a specific partner.

I mean lets start being realistic guys? Stop being paranoid (Link), and be realistic.

I'm not being paranoid, I'm just looking at all possibilities. Denying them is dumb. I'm not even accusing anyone, I'm simply stating that you saying that it is impossible that Mafia talked before the game is an outright fallacy.

[Regfan]

Hey everyone, I'll try and get updated with the ongoings of this game right away. It's been a while since I've played a game solo (I'm normally a hydra player) so this should be incredibly interesting, great player list as well.

[ender241]

Vote count 7:
Zdenek -
Mysterio -
Don_johnson - Nintendoaddict,
Hellhound -
Timeater - Zdenek, Hellhound, Maruchan, Ankamius, Empking
Link (sorry) -
Hahonryuu -
Nintendoaddict -
Empking -
Twistedspoon -
The Tick -Tspoon,
Maruchan -
Ankamius - Don_johnson

Seven votes are required to lynch.

Day ends 4th of september 23:57 (GMT).

Not Voting - Mysterio, The Tick, Timeater, Link, Hahonryuu

[don_johnson]

um, my town record is actually pretty good. i think on average, scum win 75% of the time or so. so for me to be just under .500 is not bad at all. i am actually proud of my town record. but whatevz. other thing of note with timeeaters list is he has me as scummy, and now i'm town. i feel like i'm being buddied.

[Maruchan]

I'm not being paranoid, I'm just looking at all possibilities. Denying them is dumb. I'm not even accusing anyone, I'm simply stating that you saying that it is impossible that Mafia talked before the game is an outright fallacy.

Okay, let me rephrase: Highly, extremely almost-guaranteed, 99.999% unlikely that the mafia planned anything before the day started.

[Regfan]

Currently up to page nine, I need to take a break to make some lunch but I'll post what I have so far and continue of when I get back.

First of the discussion and argument that revolved around DH voting Hahaon was idiotic. DH's vote was placed because he found Hahoryuus vote to be opportunistic and nothing more, his explanation of it is entirely reasonable and the fact that he somehow got to L-2 and needed to claim that early in the game is immensely frustrating.

I'm also reading the whole Timeeater vs DemonHybrid spat to be town on town to be perfectly honest, they both got incredibly riled up and instead of standing back to realize that they were pushing useless cases on each other they got personal. I'm actually finding minimal scum motivation for either of there play early on. I do want to read back and take a look at peoples stances on the situation later because I'm expecting that there would have been mafia attempting to 'mediate' the dispute while doing nothing beneficial themselves.

Although I'm unsure what to make from Twisteds avoidance from mentioning his great scum win recently in the list of his games completed and his under-rating his own scum ability I'm finding a great deal of his posts to be very spot on and logical and thus have a strongish town-read on him at the moment, similarly I'm finding myself agreeing with a lot of the points suggested by Zdenek early on though I disagree with his push on Maruchan. I'm reading Maruchans defensiveness to be play style related rather than alignment related and considering I'm finding a lot of his thing rather than a scum-tell, his opening few posts as well as his meta-comparison draw to Link read as geninue town scumhunting.

So far The Tick has been incredibly wishy-washy in his posts and has avoided and refrained from posting anything that can be considered as legitimate scumhunting or geninue town thinking. His willingness to drop his entire scum-read on DH just because he replaced out makes no sense whatsoever and reads as him attempting to avoid being the last person on the inevitable dying wagon.

I'm not liking Nintendos play so far and I actually have significant meta experience with him, his play has been incredibly off this game and his votes so far have read as opportunistic and nothing more. I'm also disliking Hahonryuus reaction to DH's pressure and her decline in posting after it occurred, it honestly looks like mafia feeling like they're incriminating themselves by posting and therefore lurking until the focus moves elsewhere.

Overall the the moment my reads are:

Town:

DemonHybrid, Timeater, Twistedspoon, Maruchan, Zdenek (Weaker).

Null:

Don, Link, Empking, Hellhound.

Scum:

The Tick, Nintendo, Hahonryuu (Weaker).

@ Link and Maruchan -

Can you both please stop quote-walling. It's very difficult to read and soak in properly and leads towards less motivation to read it properly.

[Hikari Link]

Not gonna happen, Regfan. Sorry, that's just how I operate and I'm not stopping.

[Ankamius]

I understand that I replaced into a slot where my predecessor had a major highlight in the game (that I haven't matched), but please use my name instead of his.