Newbie 1151 ÔÇô Game Over

[Epsilon_Andrew]

Isa, when I said I don't want to see someone die on the first day, I meant right off the bat. The day itself is 3 weeks long, a day in those terms. Hope that makes sense. I know that a no lynch is the worst thing for the town to do on the first day (ever in fact).

[racerman13]

Actually, it isn't necessarily. In MYLO, I believe that it's best to NL so it is possible to narrow down the scum possibilities.

[Epsilon_Andrew]

I forgot about mylo

[Krazy]

Will still write another reply later on, but just for now: by lampshading I meant (and I won't IC text this since I think it's uncommon enough some people use the term different ways) that you're basically signalling what you're going to do or doing as you do it. It can be used with a chainsaw, which is the more scummy instance.

ie: "Well, I think Player A is town now... but if Player B flips scum, then that view would change... and I would then HAVE to vote player A."

usually when people say stuff like this it's pretty scummy.

In this instance, a better descriptor might have simply been waffling. Lord wasn't really committing to a view of me one way or another, he was saying "town points now but we'll see later." This is one of the reasons I don't really see it as buddying... usually in buddying, for it to work, you need to at least for a while commit to a view of the person as town, whereas here Lord wasn't really doing that. I'm tempted to say that "lampshading" = scummy, "waffling" = towny, but it's not that simple. Town does waffle a lot, especially when players are playing abnormally (making random comments, or seeming to have a strong emotional response, or in regard to nightkill speculation). But scum will waffle too, especially when it's their allies in the crosshairs of the town.

[Xeras]

Of those examples, I must go with this.

1. Scum
2. Scum
3. Scum
4. Town

[Krazy]

Xeras do you mind if I ask what reasoning led you to see example 1 as scum?

[Xeras]

And I guess I better do this. I am not good at fluffing things up though, so you probably will not get as much details as you were hoping for.

Epsilon_Andrew
---------------------
With him I am leaning Null, with a swirl of town mixed in. That is what the line was for, but I didn't really explain that part.

He is asking what I consider the proper questions a townie should ask.

Ok, that was scummy.

(This is when I placed Ranmaru at L-2.) To me this something a townie would say. I could see a member of the mafia putting Ranmaru at L-1 instead. In fact that is what I was waiting for. Then I had to go to sleep, so I figured I would end the experiment just in case Ranmaru did get lynched.

Right after my comment, Xeras voted for Ranmaru. Did you just do this to make a point? I've just been trying to get the discussion going by asking questions like you guys have said.

This is something else a member of town would ask.

The thing about is, that most of these things are semi-obvious, so that is why I will not give him the full town treatment at this time.




Isa
---------------
... You only have a few posts, and from today, so it is a bit harder to get a proper read on you, considering that I have had no interaction with you yet. ^^

From your posts, I have a feeling that you are trying to drift with the crowd. You know, looking for an easy lynch.

VOTE: Xeras THIS IS L-1. NOBODY HAMMER.

What do you mean easy lynch? I told no one to hammer.

Right. I personally am a compulsive hammerer. Especially on day one. The thing is, there is next to no information to work with. Day one basically comes to gut instincts and tricks.
You are the fourth person to vote for me, and as far as I can tell, you have just repeated what others have said. (Other than my small slip of not seeing an unvote)

To me you are null, strongly leaning scum, until I have further interaction with you.

Jeffiej •
-------------
Scum. He is lurking,

Krazy (IC)
--------------
Yes. I did originally mark him as Null leaning scum. The thing with ICs, is that they are harder to read. They need to make sure everyone is playing properly, and not making stupid mistakes. Like lynching on the second day. I am still completely null on this guy.


Lord
------------
"... x.x
I'm not going to bother, since I do not know what is up with him. >>

Stels
-----------
Null leaning town.
Though, it is hard to get a proper read with only two posts.

racerman13 (SE)
------------
SCUM.

That launches my suspicion of you up a bunch of notches. I think you were trying to find an easy mafia target.

How are you an 'easy' mafia target if no one is really voting for you? Or perhaps, it was a Friedan slip. Do you see yourself as not being very good as mafia? Do you think if you were mafia, you would be an easy read? Perhaps you are, and felt kind of nervous about the situation I put you in.

Random Voting Stage.How to you make something out of that? I have never played a game with you before. You are completely out of your fucking mind with paranoia.

TO be completely honest, I hate the RVS. To me it gives scum a reason to vote for someone, and hope that they start a bandwagon. When it turns up a mislynch, they can use the excuse 'derplolrvs". This ultimately gives the scum another day in the lead.

Ranmaru
-------------
TOWN.
I am see him as very strongly town. Though, when someone reads this strongly as town, there is a chance that he is scum.

that's not a good question to ask. That question can incriminate a person wrongly.

(In reference to me asking racerman who he would kill as scum, if we had a night start.)
This is what set me off with the town tangent with him. Though, the obvious statement, should have been obvious, but it is also true that he is the only one to ask it. So, once I was completely sure, I then placed him at L-2.

Actually, it's perfectly fine. What intentions do you see from Lord? And Xeras, since you said it was scummy.

(In response for me placing him at L-2) When someone is close to lynch, there are two actions. One. Remain calm, because a vanilla lynch is better than a PR lynch, or, you are a PR trying to lay low. Or Two, freak out, because you are scum, and losing a partner on day one, dramatically reduces chances as a mafia win. There is also, mafia, staying calm, because he is overly arrogant.

Xeras. Do you think that question helped you gain an alignment read on Racerman?

Another proper question that a townie should be asking.

[Xeras]

Game 1:

xtra there's no way you actually think there was a chance of sj getting lynched. what xeras said about your vote is accurate, it's basically a vote for shizuka without actually doing it.

To me, this is someone redirecting attention away from the bandwagon.

But wait, he was talking about adding on the 'Shizuka' bandwagon.

Yes, but this is a trap. The person originally posting this is probably a member of the mafia, bussing 'Shizuka'. When Shizuka flips mafia, the next suspect would be 'Xtra'. Instead of the person that posted the above post.

A good trap.

[Krazy]

I personally am a compulsive hammerer. Especially on day one.

Huh. Do you have any relation to Meransiel? Sorry, Meransiel just said something very similar in a game a few days ago, and after the off-posting, I'm paranoid now about alts

[Xeras]

I have no alts at all on any site. ^^

I joined this site a few days after DarkClaymore. We both play at NISamerica, and we both died early, so we joined here to spend some downtime until the next game started. ^^

[Isa]

Isa
---------------
... You only have a few posts, and from today, so it is a bit harder to get a proper read on you, considering that I have had no interaction with you yet. ^^

From your posts, I have a feeling that you are trying to drift with the crowd. You know, looking for an easy lynch.

VOTE: Xeras THIS IS L-1. NOBODY HAMMER.

What do you mean easy lynch? I told no one to hammer.

Right. I personally am a compulsive hammerer. Especially on day one. The thing is, there is next to no information to work with. Day one basically comes to gut instincts and tricks.
You are the fourth person to vote for me, and as far as I can tell, you have just repeated what others have said. (Other than my small slip of not seeing an unvote)

To me you are null, strongly leaning scum, until I have further interaction with you.

If I voted you with the intention of getting you lynched here and now, I'd probably just skip the L-1 thing and blame it on not noticing the votecount. I can't really count on the ones I am playing with to be compulsive hammerers, right? Especially as it is something I, and probably most with me, would read as very scummy.
I've mostly repeated what others have said because we've left the RVS but there's not a lot of things to go on. I've tried to bring something new to the table but there's honestly not a lot I can do with the material I've been provided with.

[racerman13]

Lol. Your scum read on me has 2 parts. I will answer accordingly.

1) You were trying to find a reason (no matter how ridiculous) to vote me, so others would vote me, also. You were looking for a player that wasn't so great at mafia, probably looked at my meta, and chose me. (I usually don't play so well, as I'm pressed for time during the summer.) If I did what you expected me to, I would be dead by now, and we'd be down two townies. It would have worked perfectly, except I'm not playing so badly this time around.

2) I repeat: I made ONE post, and you attacked me for it. That is total bullshit (sorry Epsilon -_-). You can't base anything off of RVS, ESPECIALLY when the post is just a vote.

PEdit: Ohai Isa, nice to see you here in this discussion.

[Isa]

You can't base anything off of RVS, ESPECIALLY when the post is just a vote.

Then why participate in the RVS at all, and just not start with RQS? Same goes for Xeras - if you hate it, don't do it.

[racerman13]

The reason I participate in the RVS is because I don't like to sit around and watch, I like to be in the mix.

[Isa]

Again, I point you towards the RQS.

Oh well.

[Uite]

• Votecount 1.4
  
  
  [
  4
  ]
  Xeras
  ~
  Lord
  ,
  racerman13
  ,
  Epsilon_Andrew
  ,
  Isa
  
  [
  2
  ]
  Lord
  ~
  Ranmaru
  ,
  Stels
  
  [
  1
  ]
  racerman13
  ~
  Xeras
  
  [
  1
  ]
  Stels
  ~
  Krazy
  
  
  
  Not voting:
  
  
  Jeffiej
  
  
  
• With
  9
  alive, it takes
  5
  to lynch
  
• Deadline for Day 1 is Friday, 9^th of September 2011, at 11:55 CEST (UTC+2)

[Krazy]

Alright, I'll go ahead and do the answers here. Still very interested in the reasoning for your inclinations.

Game 1:

k--r there's no way you actually think there was a chance of m--y getting lynched. what krazy said about your vote is accurate, it's basically a vote for g--o without actually doing it.

This post is by scum; it's also from offsite which might be why it's additionally hard to interpret as the meta is pretty different. What I notice here in retrospect is how the poster, who I will call Player O, does not suggest that I myself am town, but instead only opts for how my argument, as I suggested it, supports the conclusion that another player (k--r, who in this game was town that was tunneling on another town) might be scum.

This was end of D1, I was nightkilled N1. Town lost this game, with this player in particular having gone the whole game as a "probably town" in everyone's list of who they thought was scum. k--r was town, m--y was town, g--o was town.

Game 2:

Krazy, come here pal! Join the X--X wagon!

This post is by town, a town-sided vigilante actually. He wanted me to join the wagon on a vanilla town that claimed way too early and as a result seemed very scummy. However, the player's enthusiasm for this lynch was not based on special insight, as X--X was town.

Game 3:

yeah krazy is town, althought I think p--v is scummier than w--r.

krazy, would you support a p--v wagon?

This is from town. Player was lynched D1 (partly after I second-guessed myself, due partly to this post, on whether he was town or not). The player was also wrong, w--r was scum, p--v was not.

Game 4:

What Krazy said.

. . . [post abridged] . . .

If you're so sure XX is mafia with or without S--w, why were you so insistant that we lynch S--w? Why not just push for XX? Because S--w was under pressure from other players and because it was easier to get him lynched. You didn't really care if S--w or XX got lynched because you're mafia.

This is from scum. Partners, incidentally, with XX. He night-killed me after we lynched the player he's talking to.

[Krazy]

So some patterns we're seeing here, most of these "buddying" attempts come toward the end of the day, and usually they're directly related to leading toward a lynch. In the case of town-buddying, they are either inviting me to join wagons the players themselves are on, or they are inviting further discussion on who is the ideal lynch for the day and who is scummier.

Scum, on the other hand, in these instances at least, take my argument and reiterate it almost verbatim, reaching the same conclusion of who is scum, who should be lynched that day or the next, but in the process of doing so do not discuss whether they think I am town or not.

So of the four options, this:

and since I haven't placed an RVS vote either this is where my vote will stay for the moment.

Ok, townpoints for this. Not scum mentality. We'll see how you'll perform later.

Strikes me as the closest to #3, which in my mind falls under the category of "more likely town-buddying than scum-buddying."

If anything, this strikes me as closer to the sort of "scum-buddying" I am used to seeing:

Page 5:
I second pretty much everything Krazy said in his #103 - I get a gut read on Stels as scum as well. Stels reply in #105 is nothing I like to see either (AtE, the "IC-like"-comment).

which you will notice has marked similarities to #1 and #4 in my examples. That being said, I try to not be so paranoid as to say that every time someone agrees with me they're scum... But this post by Isa is additionally interesting in regard to her post just a few later saying that I'm "Null" and also that I "haven't said anything" or something to that effect.

I will continue to think on this.

[Lord]

Ok, here's the whole story.

This is an alt of Meransiel, yes, but I was playing a site-wide prank implying that it is NOT an alt, just a close friend of Meransiel. In one OTHER game, I posted with this instead of Mer by mistake, and I was modkilled (force replaced, but it's not a great difference). So you get the point.

Either way, I might have exaggerated earlier with leaving the site, I like this game too much, so expect another wall from me detailing what has transpired since Krazy woke up from his grave after I come back from my 4 hour snooker 4 hour swimming relaxation day.

No time to post too much right now, will just make a short ammendation - when I said Epsilon was sorta buddying me, I meant sheeping. Will explain. So far, though I have no time to comment I DID read the entire game, and suffice to say find no reason to move my vote off of Zeras.

[Lord]

Ah, also also, because I saw 1 or two. "Appeal to X" are 100% null tells that everyone falls into. Keep that in mind.

[Lord]

Ok, let's get busy. But, before that, fun fact sharing . Although many people don't believe this, there ARE absolutes in mafia. Here is one of them: if a newbie thinks meta analysis is useful, he is an alt.

Town

Epsilon

Explain this please.

I would still like you to answer this please. Sorry if you already did.

Buddying to Krazy. =/ Ranmaru ninja'd me by miles.

I hate giving Mafia lessons to people, but here's one: there is no point in buddying someone if you don't know what his reads are yet as you might disagree with them (yes, this can happen EVEN if you are scum).

VOTE: Lord. Paranoia, buddying, false crediting. Kinda didn't want to vote after 'that' ^^

Given the extreme consistency of this vote, here is a thought experiment for you. Imagine I was unlynchable. Who would you vote?

Lord, what was it I said that seems like I was buddying up to you? I just wish to know where the origin of this started.

I think you followed me on Xeras with painfully insubstantial reasoning. That's why it was rather a typo on my part, as I meant sheeping. I will ask you the same question. If Xeras would be unlynchable, who would you vote? In all honesty, I would probably vote you.

and although I'm kind of annoyed that Meransiel is taking one of the few newbie slots in a game already full of SEs

I completed only 10-11 games so far, I'm not that experienced.

I've been feeling pretty strongly that most the arguments are town are town and that both of our scum are likely in the players that hadn't posted much yet, and right now, Stels I have a gut read on you as scum.

I don't like that you're calling it a gut read, given what you posted afterwards, the "guess who's scum and who's town" mini-game, where you've basically proven your read on Stels is not exactly gut. So I will have to ask, did you lie initially, or did it strike you after you made that post?

@Krazy: meh, whatever makes you happy =/

You reacted too calmly. Dunno what it means but it's usually a bad sign. I'll follow you. Though your inquiry of Krazy I find a little better than null.

This does not strike me as a very town-oriented reaction to my vote.

Why?

downplay my position and distract from the things you actually are saying

Your position is that you have a gut read, how can THAT be downplayed even lower? Oh, it's strengthened. How opportunistic.

Spoiler: The Usual Ranmaru Head Knocking

Again, I don’t really know if you were really caring about his vote because you didn’t press on his vote, just his suspicion.

I never pressed on his vote. Just on his unvote. I don't really understand what you want here.

Yes you say you don’t believe it, but you don’t state why.

I don't need to. It's obviously fake. You don't give a false read just to basically make things move, and that's what he outright admitted to doing.

No. I don’t see how me saying that was taking the easy path. I just thought you suspected that me voting a new guy over a player I am familiar with is odd, which I disagree with.

For the love of God, call me when you're done misreading.

I still don’t see how it was a town tell :/

Then you disagree with me. Disagreeing is normal, otherwise this game would consist solely of No Lynching.

Not at all.

Sorry, gotta verify. What part of my #90 was this directed at?

I find his statements to you as null, they don’t seem to be about your stances or anything. Why does it seem scummy to you?

Look above.

Of Isa I won't say much, cause I agree with the way she's posting and analyzing the game (well except that she doesn't agree to the town tell, and I don't have a similar stance on Stells). Seems genuine and consistent.

The whole exercise thing I find utterly irrelevant to forming reads.

The thing about is, that most of these things are semi-obvious, so that is why I will not give him the full town treatment at this time.

THIS is lampshading whatsisnameetcetc, Krazy. Take heed.

Day one basically comes to gut instincts and tricks.
You are the fourth person to vote for me, and as far as I can tell, you have just repeated what others have said. (Other than my small slip of not seeing an unvote)

To me you are null, strongly leaning scum, until I have further interaction with you.

Blatant OMGUS.

Jeffiej •
-------------
Scum. He is lurking,

As I asked Ran before, is this serious?

They need to make sure everyone is playing properly, and not making stupid mistakes. Like lynching on the second day. I am still completely null on this guy.

That's why alts help, I can be an IC AND unhelpful to newbies . On a more serious note, has your read of Krazy changed at all since this?
Also I dunno if you're really paying attention or actual stances. And your thoughts on me and Stels strengthen than opinion.

Also, your town read on Ranmaru is playing the Cpt Obvious, as that is the general consensus anyway.

Racerman's defense posts strikes me as...no, it doesn't strike me.

Here's my full list of reads cause why not?

Town - Isa, Ranmaru
Leaning Town - Stels
Null - racerman13
Fuck you (treat this as null) - Jeffiej
Leaning Scum - Krazy, Epsilon
Scum - Xeras

[Lord]

@Mod: Can you please fix the spoiler tags above? The stray [/quote] should be [/spoiler]. Thank you in advance.

[Uite]

Jeffiej

hasn't picked up his prod, so I'm replacing him with

Johhog

. Welcome!

[Johhog]

Thanks!
/confirm

I recognise some faces to different degrees., mainly Isa (YAY ANOTHER SWEDE HIGH FIVE), racerman, Xeras and Stels (I've played with those last three). I also definitely recognise the user names of Ranmaru, Krazy and Meransiel (or should I say Lord ), and Uite was my first mod, so well, Epsilon is the only one here I'm not recognising in any way, lol.

Also, I must confess that I haven't read this game, so I will do a reread. No lynching yet please, Xeras is at L-1 or L-2 or something like that, right?

But first I must watch Malmö FF vs. Dinamo Zagreb in Champions League. See you in a couple of hours!

[racerman13]

Ohai Johhog. Good to see you here. Yes, Xeras is at L-1.