Open 326: Pick Your Poison (Ende des Speils!)

[glowball]

I am not asking for a re-read I am asking you to care about the questions you ask. You asked me several questions I didn't answer, as I pointed out to you and you didn't even seem to notice or care. How does that help your scumhunting if you just let people not answer your questions and forget about it?

[glowball]

It's not just RoboThor who wants to know; it just happened to be him that asked. Any particular reason why you're withholding this information?

oh and to address this, it's not me withholding information, it's the fact that if my reads cannot be trusted or are viewed as weak then they are virtually of no help to any of you from that pov. You can convince me otherwise and I'll tell you

[Xalxe]

thunderwielder is being prodded.

NihilisticNinja is being replaced.

Xalxe is being sad.

[thunderwielder]

Sorry Xalxe, and sorry guys for my inactivity, I got unexpectedly busy last night, and I was too tired to read up on the thread and post. I will do a thorough readthrough and post my thoughts and my top suspects today.

[Amrun]

Glowball, don't throw.a hissy fit. No pro-town player should need to be asked for their reads - and definitely not twice.

[glowball]

Glowball, don't throw.a hissy fit. No pro-town player should need to be asked for their reads - and definitely not twice.

More often than not I've noticed scum ask for reads on specific players so that they can gauge the town before nightphase. I am not withholding any crucial information as I have already stated who I would be willing to lynch today and that should be enough.

[thunderwielder]

Okay, team, get ready for a shitstorm.
I’ve started to break my suspicions down, and I’lltry to put spoiler tags on them, for whichever weiners complain about wall size. But I have a lot to say, and you’ll all just have to deal with that.

Spoiler: Why you should all be voting for Glowball

First off, I’d like to present an analysis of Glowball’s most recent posts that I find off.
(This starts at post 216, because I was reading through and catching up, and then decided to start taking notes halfway through, so this is where they start)

Post 216

NS and Overlord...nah, I mean if you don't agree with my Maruchan case then why ask for my reads on others?

This is ridiculous. I address it later in my post. Why should a town hesitate in giving reads? I don’t see a single reason why.

Post 218

Maruchan- NOW you are putting your own feelings onto me. I never said a lack of defense is scummy... In fact I find it more scummy that you would overly defend. You can do both though. You can scumhunt and defend. Like this last post of yours you could fit in some scumhunting you are obviously online

means nothing. Her “obviously online” comment doesn’t mean anything. Because I’m doing two games right now, and during my tentative V/LA I was able to post in the other game because it requires less analysis.

Post 220

Awesome. SO you are in too many games to follow up on questions that you've asked- and STILL have yet to follow up even after I pointed it out. Now you have decided to further take yourself away from mafia, which would be fine if you hadn't already said you had to much on your plate to follow up. You are using ridiculous circumstances not to scumhunt and seriously you should just replace out if you don't have the desire and time to dedicate.

She’s using ‘ridiculous circumstances’ and reasoning to try to push a lynch on Maruchan, instead of addressing concerns that her case against him and her reasons for voting were pretty weak (as pointed out merely posts before by Thor).

Post 226

And this is what happens when the game progresses at an alarming rate... L-2 on page 10. I am not ready for this day to end, but I am also not in the mood to unvote so I just ask that anyone even thinking of voting Maruchan hold their votes for more discussion.

I WANT EVERYONE'S THOUGHTS ON THIS WAGON AND ITS PROGRESSION

I guess I’m in no position to address the “alarming rate” part of this post, since this is the largest game I’ve played, but is it really that far along? Why doesn’t she want more votes on a player that she feels so strongly is scum? She said before

I am fine with a Maruchan or Saulres lynch.

Post 159, and then

This is not to say that Saulres is off of the hook- he's just laid low recently, adding to his lack of scumhunting and I am considering giving him the BoD and not just assume that he's newbscum sliding by like I did in my newbie game.

That being said, short of some crazy upset Maruchan or Saulres need to die today their flips will tell the most...

In post 213.
This, however, immediately followed post 194

I will list why Maruchan is scummy in my next post, but I unvoted because I feel like I may have missed a few things and that Saulres may not be my best vote choice.

where she says that Saulres may not be the best vote choice, yet she gives the ultimatum that it must be one or the other in her next post.

She has been tunneling solely on these two people, and not even responding to any of the other accusations or questions that have been thrown around

.

Post 232

But I would like to say BRAVO. You have basically sealed my vote. When exactly did I become your scum suspect? When I started questioning you? This is just you OMGUS placing arguments against me without a vote and trying to discredit me. You are a feeler.

This is misrepresentation or an honest mistake that she doesn’t interpret Maruchan’s post correctly, but then the next post after it, she addresses his bottom post in the correct fashion (or the way that I interpreted Maruchan’s post) which makes me not understand what Glowball was getting at with the above quote. Could you explain that a bit more for me Glow?

Post 251

oh and to address this, it's not me withholding information, it's the fact that if my reads cannot be trusted or are viewed as weak then they are virtually of no help to any of you from that pov. You can convince me otherwise and I'll tell you

Is bullshit. Sorry, but it is. Every townie’s voice is

supremely

important. There’s no reason not to provide your reads if you’re town, because, even if you get lynched (and somebody brought this up earlier, not sure who, Maruchan? Somebody questioning him, Amrun maybe?), then it DOES matter. Because if you flip town, we’ll then have valuable reads to go on, ones that may or may not be misguided, but ones that definitely come from a townie point of view.

Oh, and before I forget, Glowball’s “case” against Maruchan in post 213 is just rubbish. And then the comment

Now after all of this you may wonder- well if you think he's scummy why aren't you voting him?" Good Point...
VOTE: Maruchan

is equally rubbishy. My read on this (and, yeah, I AM inferring, because that’s how people develop reads, hurr de durr) is that she kept getting pressured to vote for Maruchan, tried to develop an actual case on him, came up with… well, not so much of a case, said, “Look guys, I’m totally voting for him, don’t put me under pressure for that anymore!”, and subsequently put him to L-2, which isn’t that bad, considering we have a week left and plenty more discussion to be had.



The above are Glowball’s direct quotes, and why I take issue with them.

Spoiler: Part 2

PART 2

Now to address Glowball’s “attack” on me. I say “attack” in quotation marks, because it wasn’t really anything.
(I am making this it’s OWN subject and point of discussion because I feel quite strongly about it, and I feel it has been swept under the rug with my absence. Maybe I just feel strongly about it because it seems like an unprovoked attack on me, and I might be personally putting bias upon it, but judging by some other responses to it, I don’t think so)

To recap: as you all know, Glowball put me under a Finger of Suspicion because I started suspecting her. Her reasoning was that I was misrepresenting her and twisting her words…. YET, she NEVER quotes me on anything that I’ve “misrepresented.” Probably because I haven’t. Or she can’t back up anything.
I agree wholeheartedly with RoboThor’s post 184

Here's the three step process to solve the problem.

1. Quote the lie he told.

2. Challenge him to quote his backup for the lie.

3. Vote him if he can't.

Weak FOSes for an "obv. lie"? Meh...what is that? If he's lying that bad you should either think he's scum or an idiot - not something in-between. What am I missing?

To which Glowball half-heartedly replies

I did let him know that he needs to have quotes next time he has something to say to me. I am leaning scum on him so yeah that did make my alarm go off on scum or idiot. I didn't at all think it was weak. I am a little lost as to your point

Wellll…. Hurr de durr, let’s take a look at what happened AFTER THAT, shall we?

Post 132: I ask Glowball a question about why she thinks Saulres is scummier than Maruchan (because she had her vote on Saulres, not Maruchan—

Would we all consider that to be a fair assumption?

)
Post 133: Glowball says “I never said that! You think I think someone is scum just because I’ve voted for them? Wow, you shurrr are dummmbb! Oh, FOS THUNDER! Quote me next time you have an issue with things I say! Stupid!”
Post 134: I say “Okay, here are all the things I’m starting to take issue with. (Provides quotes and explanations and reasoning). Could you respond to that? I am still “intentionally misrepping you?”
Post 135: Glowball says: “NAH. You’re wrong. You’re stretching. On page 6, I don’t feel like making cases on people that have my votes. OH

Because cases turn into walls!!

*Yes! Now anyone who disputes this will just be disputing the wall debate, which we’ve already decided not to dispute anymore! You’re a genius Glowball* Oh, and by the way, now at least two of the three of you are scum.”
(for those of you who are incapable of taking anything at less than face value, the asterix signifies subtext…)
Well, that last little part is interesting to me.
Let’s review.
The people that Glowball has really targeted are as follows:
Saulres,
Maruchan,
Thunderwielder.
The newest members to Mafia are as follows
Saulres,
Auckmind,
Thunderwielder,
Maruchan – (only judging by his signature)
(I’m not counting Jon or Ninja because they have both flaked)

Oh, and after post 135, Glowball has done nothing to put pressure on me. She has responded to people calling his FoS weak (oh, imagine that, it’s not just me), but has not put any pressure directly on me. She's not trying to find out whether or not I'm scum even though I'm apparently her third suspect (judging by her posts and who she's targeted and asked questions towards--If I'm still "intentionally misrepping you" please oh please, DO let me know). She's just kind of pushed it under the rug and hoped people will forget about it, leaving it as "oh, yeah, he's totally scummy alright, but instead of trying to find more information about it to see if he's really scum or an idiot, I'm just going to leave it and probably come back to it later, after we've lynched either Maruchan or Saulres(--who is still being considered a legitimate possibility, even though she hasn't come up with legitimate reasons as to why he's so scummy)".
I cry treachery!

Spoiler: A summation, for you pansies who don’t know how to read

My read of Glowball is as follows. I think she is tunneling on the newer players and hoping to get an easy mislynch of them day 1. The turn towards me happened only after I questioned her vote placement and her most vocal suspect. She then finished off by putting me under suspicion, (in order to discredit any negative energy headed her way).
She has yet to turn the limelight towards any other players (please quote me if I’m wrong on this). In my opinion, it’s because she feels the newer players are easier to attack. Well, sucks to be you, Glowball, because I don’t go down that easily. Noramp got into the same “strategy” in my last game, and I found him out and fucked him up. I don’t take kindly to people fingering me because a)it’s just weird to think of… and b)they need to have a good reason. Not just because I called them out on something, and they felt the need to blow up and attack anyone who puts them under the limelight.
On top of that, you are blatantly

refusing

to give your input on anyone, but keep pushing for lynching either Maruchan or Saulres. You are not opening yourself up to other possibilities (even though we have THREE scum in play, and your scenario only encompasses one—or two because apparantely I’m very scummy still. I’m not an idiot, so I guess I have to be scummy), and you are driving for today’s lynch in a way that doesn’t set us up to find the other two remaining scum.
You’re pushing these lynches in a way that even if people recognize that there’s an even chance of scum or town, you’ll still push the lynch on a townie for the sake of “information.” Yet you refuse to provide any OTHER information. We need to lynch SCUM, and you’re going about this day as though it’s a write-off and we’re bound to lynch a townie and then we can proceed from there. It IS possible to lynch scum on the first day, and

that should be our goal

.
You’re pushing the easy lynch on the newer players and hoping you won’t get caught doing it, and are therefore trying not to piss off any more experienced players and stay under the radar.
VOTE: Glowball

I feel like there’s SO much more to say. Everywhere I look, I see defensive, scummy, or anti-town behaviour. She started the day off fine, almost townish to me, but then when more and more content came, she started to crack under the pressure and started to flail.

Everyone should vote on this wagon. Yes, I am calling it a wagon with ONE vote. I would vote for her seven times right now if I could.

(And

this

is why I wait to cast my vote. Because I sure hope it means a heck of a lot more than it would have before.)

Please read all of this. It’s good shit. And I didn’t write it up for my own health, so fucking read it all. I want at least three more votes here by the time I get back, although six would be great too. Go.

Oh, and there's a vote in there. It goes like this (just re-emphasizing my vote so it's not hidden in a spoiler tag): VOTE: Glowball (Mod, you can count that as two votes if you want, I'm not super picky....)

Spoiler: Everything else

Now on to greener pastures

I’ll try to respond to everything ELSE that’s happened in my absence.
RoboThor, nice to see you, thanks for the boost in participation.

The Maruchan situation

: I don’t get why he’s got 5 votes. I understand one of them, not the others. This could be my bias, so strong is my passion for a Glowball lynch, but I don’t get it. Especially since a lot of the debate came from the RQS stuff, as far as I can tell (nobody has been able to write a bullet point list that’s actually worthwhile as to why Maruchan is scum), and Thor has stated that he hates RQS. I agree with RoboThor—there’s gotta be one scum on that train, and more likely two now that Glowball has joined. (current voters: Lane, Supreme Overlord, Saulres, Auckmind, Glowball)

Saulres

: I really don’t think Saul is scum. And now his wagon has died down, and I think that’s a good thing. @Saul, I would be hesitant in saying that Maruchan, Glow, and Amrun are all the scum because it is too obvious (I think I’m reiterating Amrun here). I’d put more stock in everything that happens in the thread. It’s good to check as a reference point, but I’m not sure how helpful it is.

Amrun vs Lane

: I’m with Amrun on this one. And to somebody who said (maybe Saulres?) that there was no suspicion on Lane beforehand, that’s not true. I suspected him briefly at the beginning of the game. I like Lane’s response though, fuelled with sarcasm as it is, and I can understand that reasoning. But in a tie breaker, the point goes to Amrun, although right now (if I had to say scum or town) I would have to go with town on town.

RoboThor vs Nobody Special, with a dash of Supreme Overlord

: Yup. Nobody Special has done nothing for this game. I understand the V/LA, and am interested to see if he actually posts content. But he doesn’t seem like he’s been doing anything, even PRIOR to his V/LA. RoboThor is very town right now, especially brining to light Supreme Overlord. I too had an initial gut town read on him, but I see all of the arguments against him. I would prefer a Nobody Special lynch over an Overlord lynch, though, just because of content, and I think if Nobody Special turns up scum (somebody also said this already, I’m fairly certain) Supreme Overlord could be forgiven for his quick jump over to Nobody Special. We would kill two birds with one stone (OH, imagine that *cough*Glowball*cough* there CAN be information derived from lynches other than newbies. What a freaking surprise/sarcasm). So RoboThor gets the tie breaker there, and Nobody Special would probably be my second choice after Glowball—(but who needs second choices, we should just lynch Glowball. I may not have a beard, but I’ve got some great stubble!)

Jon(Kondi)

: I don’t really have anything to say here. Other than Kondi’s a big flake and might not be coming to play. He subbed in my other game, and then subbed right back out again. And this game is a lot heavier than my other one.

NihilisticNinja

: In response to somebody (Nobody Special?) saying that Ninja was scum… well, I think that was NS’s only real contribution to the game and it seems like a huge bogus claim. Where is the evidence to support that? I feel pretty strongly about that, considering I started the game by suspecting Ninja (because of fighting my questions and jumping on the Saul wagon), but my suspicions were quickly put to rest and I realized I didn’t have a leg to stand on. I would like to see your proof, if you have any.
This is more points for a Nobody Special lynch rather than a Ninja lynch, in my opinion. If Ninja was lurking and then phased out, it’s better than an active lurker choosing to provide little to no content.

Auckmind

: I think he’s the last one I have to cover, but I don’t have anything to cover. I really can’t remember a single thing he’s said thus far. And I don’t know if that’s a good or bad thing.

Okay, that’s my long catch up post from my three days that I’ve been away. Also, from here on out until probably September 3rd or so, I’ll have a very hard time posting. I am dealing with finding a new place to live and hopefully moving there come September 1st, which will require me to set up internet and everything once I get there, and start getting adjusted to my new home. So from here on out, I’m going to need to devote my time and attention apartment hunting rather than responding here. I’ll try to post as much as I can, and to beat the prods, but

@Xalxe

and @the rest of you, please be lenient as I get my life in order.
Just don’t let Glowball sweep my accusations under the rug while I’m away, which is what happened in the past three days.

[glowball]

You know, I got through that wall up until you started personally attacking me which just isn't cool and you will be blacklisted accordingly.

Now, if I am lynched because of these weak reasons my reads don't matter. If you say they do you are lying because once I am dead they'll be quickly forgotten. I've played enough games to watch so many people go unnoticed after they are dead. Maybe they got lynched because they were scummy and you think they don't know how to play so why would you listen to their reads? RIGHT you don't. If you aren't listening to my reads NOW then you won't listen later. So no you don't deserve them, and after continually being insulted I won't give them. Lynch me if you don't like it.

[thunderwielder]

You know, I got through that wall up until you started personally attacking me which just isn't cool and you will be blacklisted accordingly.

Now, if I am lynched because of these weak reasons my reads don't matter. If you say they do you are lying because once I am dead they'll be quickly forgotten. I've played enough games to watch so many people go unnoticed after they are dead. Maybe they got lynched because they were scummy and you think they don't know how to play so why would you listen to their reads? RIGHT you don't. If you aren't listening to my reads NOW then you won't listen later. So no you don't deserve them, and after continually being insulted I won't give them. Lynch me if you don't like it.

I think you're confusing my case on you as a personal attack. I'm actually a pretty nice guy, and I'm sorry if I offended you in my case (maybe you could quote these "personal attacks" because I don't recall writing any--all of my attacks are based upon the game and how you've been playing throughout the day).
But if you're using this as an Appeal to Emotion, then I wouldn't be sorry. If I genuinely offended you, know that it is never my intention. This is how the game is played. I just think a lot of your actions are scummy, and I have said why.

Just saying they are weak reasons and for us to lynch you does us no good if you really are town.
And, yeah, I

definitely

would make sure to remember your reads if you turn up town, because, like I said in one of my first posts, I was criticized on having too short a memory, and intend to rectify that.

Again, I'm sorry if I actually somehow hurt your feelings, but I will not be removing my vote just because you have deigned not to finish reading my case, not respond to any of the points I made, tried to brush everything off as "weak points," and asked for us to lynch you.

I'd also like to point out that you referred to me as "scum or an idiot", and since I'm not scum I can only assume that you find me to be an idiot. But I haven't yelled at you for personally attacking me, since I realized that some particular uses of rhetoric happen quite frequently in this game and not to take them personally.

[glowball]

The origin of scum or idiot didn't come from me, it came from RoboThor and to respond to him I used the terms that he used as to not cause confusion. No one is asking you to remove your vote- but there were a lot of points were you just called me stupid and I didn't appreciate it. All I know is that if I am lynched for that little of reasoning and inference then you guys dont deserve my reads.

[thunderwielder]

The origin of scum or idiot didn't come from me, it came from RoboThor and to respond to him I used the terms that he used as to not cause confusion. No one is asking you to remove your vote- but there were a lot of points were you just called me stupid and I didn't appreciate it. All I know is that if I am lynched for that little of reasoning and inference then you guys dont deserve my reads.

Where did I call you stupid? Now I think you're the one inferring. The only place where I even USE the word stupid is when I'm paraphrasing your own words-the stupid in the following quote is used for effect and for the general energy of how I perceive post 133. ie

Post 133: Glowball says “I never said that! You think I think someone is scum just because I’ve voted for them? Wow, you shurrr are dummmbb! Oh, FOS THUNDER! Quote me next time you have an issue with things I say! Stupid!”

This is located in my Part 2 section.

Also (and this is semantics, so I'll leave it at this), RoboThor asked the question, you confirmed it. RoboThor's question was : "shouldn't you be doing this, if you think this" and your response was "You're right, I do think that". It's kind of the same thing. Repetition of words or opinions doesn't make it any less true. Just saying.

Again, I'll reiterate, you're just being even more anti-town right now, and I'm now leaning more towards you just playing the hurt feelings card as an appeal to emotions (I don't mean to offend you here, either. I'll try to be very specific in my wordings from now on, when talking about your actions and how I don't like them).

[glowball]

AtE is something I seem to frequently do, but it's never really a game tactic as most perceive it. I am just a generally sensitive person

[Maruchan]

Lot of content posted since I went to bed. Will read when I get home from the DEP Meeting, and comment.

[Maruchan]

I am not asking for a re-read I am asking you to care about the questions you ask. You asked me several questions I didn't answer, as I pointed out to you and you didn't even seem to notice or care. How does that help your scumhunting if you just let people not answer your questions and forget about it?

So its a bad thing if the game actually STARTS being a game on page for, rather than on page 10? Its bad for us to start actual content early? ... Why exactly?

Please answer this, You've ignored it all game. Also, please answer the other question that you purposefully ignored, as you stated in the last spoiler of your post #213, and also state what the question was and who asked it, as I don't remember the second question you were asked that was ignored.

Glowball, don't throw.a hissy fit. No pro-town player should need to be asked for their reads - and definitely not twice.

More often than not I've noticed scum ask for reads on specific players so that they can gauge the town before nightphase. I am not withholding any crucial information as I have already stated who I would be willing to lynch today and that should be enough.

This is a double edged sword. Yes you are keeping the scum from seeing who has the biggest townie points, which is good. BUT, you are also making it impossible for us to know if when you switch your vote in a week to the newest bandwagon, and you tell us they were a scum suspect all along, whether or not you're telling us the truth. I'd say its a toss-up as to whether or not posting one is more helpful to town or to scum.

-snip-

I'll read through your spoilers after I finish reading everything and commenting. they are quite long.

You know, I got through that wall up until you started personally attacking me which just isn't cool and you will be blacklisted accordingly.

Now, if I am lynched because of these weak reasons my reads don't matter. If you say they do you are lying because once I am dead they'll be quickly forgotten. I've played enough games to watch so many people go unnoticed after they are dead. Maybe they got lynched because they were scummy and you think they don't know how to play so why would you listen to their reads? RIGHT you don't. If you aren't listening to my reads NOW then you won't listen later. So no you don't deserve them, and after continually being insulted I won't give them. Lynch me if you don't like it.

-sigh- Wait to blacklist him until post-game please? People play to win, and sometimes that means attacking the integrity of other players. Its a part of the game. Don't take it personal, unless he fails to apologize post-game. Also, don't withhold information or responses to accusations from the town just because your feelings are hurt. Don't handicap the town to get back at another player. Thats just such an asinine plan, I don't see a possible way to understand it.

AtE is something I seem to frequently do, but it's never really a game tactic as most perceive it. I am just a generally sensitive person

NOT trying to be sexist in any way shape or form whatsoever as irl you can ask any person who knows me, I am sexist in FAVOR of females, and will talk shit about the male gender of the human species day in and day out, BUT that probably comes from being a female. Both the natural use of AtE, and the sensitivity. js

[Maruchan]

wow i fucked up my quote tag.

Mod, can you add a " after the date and time in my screwed up quote?. THANKS! ♥♥

Done, I think. --Mod

[Amrun]

glowball, in no way, shape, or form was that case a personal attack.

thunder, your case is also more based in playstyle than anything else. glowball really, truly is sensitive.

I call TvT on this one ... or maybe Tvt (because I'm not sure glowball is Town with a capital T). Leaning town on her still, though.

[saulres]

Glowball, I don't like your case on glowball.

I'm having trouble following this, could you correct the name that's wrong?

Saulres, I appreciate the effort and research, but an entirely meta-based case is a bad one. Also , rvs wagons are very useful, or can be, and no scumteam would so obviously link themselves.

It's not entirely meta-based, the meta just helps fuel my suspicions, which started with the RVS bandwagon

s

(note the plural) Maruchan and glowball were both in, and stoked tremendously by maruchan asking people to vote for him, which, once again, he

still

hasn't addressed as to why.

Saying "no scumteam would so obviously link themselves" sounds like WIFOM to me.

whichever weiners complain about wall size

/me raises his hand as such a weiner.

Everyone should vote on this wagon.

I believe if you look at my theory post, you'll see that I'd be willing to switch to a glowball lynch today. I just don't want to move it off someone who's at L-2 who I also think is mafia and who could be hammered by the replacement players.

@Saul, I would be hesitant in saying that Maruchan, Glow, and Amrun are all the scum because it is too obvious (I think I’m reiterating Amrun here). I’d put more stock in everything that happens in the thread. It’s good to check as a reference point, but I’m not sure how helpful it is.

I'm hesitant on Amrun. Nothing I'm seeing in the thread is really making me hesitate about Maruchan or glowball.

And thank you for that person-by-person analysis post, thunderwielder (not to be confused with the thunder god who's playing as a hydra in this game). It's a good summary and I'm sure would help the replacements (as well as the rest of us) whose eyes are glazing over with the length of the posts.

[Amrun]

Glowball, I don't like your case on glowball.

I'm having trouble following this, could you correct the name that's wrong?

Saulres, I appreciate the effort and research, but an entirely meta-based case is a bad one. Also , rvs wagons are very useful, or can be, and no scumteam would so obviously link themselves.

It's not entirely meta-based, the meta just helps fuel my suspicions, which started with the RVS bandwagon

s

(note the plural) Maruchan and glowball were both in, and stoked tremendously by maruchan asking people to vote for him, which, once again, he

still

hasn't addressed as to why.

Saying "no scumteam would so obviously link themselves" sounds like WIFOM to me.

Oops! I meant glowball's case on Maruchan. Apologies.

As for the second, it is, a bit, since I'm the one saying it, but it IS true. thunderwielder agrees, for what it's worth.

RVS wagons are not a scumtell, at least not until any flips happen. For example, if there was an RVS wagon on someone who later flips scum, it can be analyzed for who stayed on and off it and why, just like any other wagon, and early pressure is really great to get a game going.

[Supreme Overlord]

Glowball, don't throw.a hissy fit. No pro-town player should need to be asked for their reads - and definitely not twice.

More often than not I've noticed scum ask for reads on specific players so that they can gauge the town before nightphase. I am not withholding any crucial information as I have already stated who I would be willing to lynch today and that should be enough.

This is ridiculous. How are you supposed to be of any use to the town if you don't give out your opinions? Plus, being asked to check specific players can bring new things to light that you may not have noticed previously. As thunderweilder said, even if you're scummy enought to be lynched, your reads are solely town-influenced, and therefore a bit more reliable than the poepl who are still alive.

Of course, even if it is both harmful and hurtful for a town player to give out reads, it's only helpful for a scum player to conceal them. It lets you change your mind without leavin a paper trail, with the excuse of 'I've thought this all along, but I didn't say so because the scum would've found out'. (

Thunderweilder already said some of this, I believe.

Actually, it was Maruchan.)

Yes you are keeping the scum from seeing who has the biggest townie points, which is good.

Actually, since we already have a number of players giving out town reads ( ) I don't think letting the scum know another player's reads would be all that damaging. (Which brings another point to mind; I usually assume scum are intelligent enough to work out who the generally-regarded town players are anyway; I think my initial viewpoint on town reads was knee-jerk and rather flawed.)



I like thunder's case, and the strength of it and his subsequent vote has largely alliviated my concerns about him. The inability of blowball to defend herself or give out the reads requested of her is enough to earn my vote.
UNVOTE: Maruchan
VOTE: glowball

[glowball]

glowball, in no way, shape, or form was that case a personal attack.

thunder, your case is also more based in playstyle than anything else.

glowball really, truly is sensitive.

I call TvT on this one ... or maybe Tvt (because I'm not sure glowball is Town with a capital T). Leaning town on her still, though.

Bolded and quoted for truth..

@Maruchan
I need some noodles! Anyways, it's ridiculous at Page 10 in my opinion given the amount of content(it wasn't much) in this game BUT that might just be a play style thing. I have a lot of games that tend to go pages long in day one even days before deadline. I think it might have to do with the fact that I've been playing more large games as a single and in my hydra. This was brought up in another game I am in soooooooooo I'll concede defeat on the timing as a playstyle thing.

Um, the other question was yours and I don't remember what is was- if you wanted answered you need to ask it again, I'm not going through searching and quoting a question, I'm lazy.

aw Ninja'D
I have a papertrail, I have stated who I find scummiest and that is all that should matter. Town reads only matter to scum.

[Amrun]

No, town reads matter to EVERYONE.

[glowball]

No, town reads matter to EVERYONE.

Town reads aren't useful. If I hang because I am scummy you obviously think I am a bad player and therefore my reads are useless. You guys pile on for a crap case and then want my town reads? No sir. I have scum reads MARUCHAN and SAULRES. Why do you need the town reads? Why aren't the scum reads good enough?

[Amrun]

Because scumreads are only half of the game. Even if some people think your reads are useless - and I can name only one or two that do, namely thunderwielder - if you flip town, voila! Reads no longer useless.

Just because I think your case on maruchan is weak does not mean I am uninterested in the rest of your reads.

[saulres]

I like town reads. It gives me a single post to refer to get summaries, which I can then take notes on as to what I agree or disagree with, for future discussion.

[thunderwielder]

@Saulres, could you convince me why Maruchan is a better lynch today than Glowball? Bullet points for each is fine. I just have yet to see a concise case about Maruchan (except for Glowball's--which I feel was somewhat lacking). I can be in favour if you convince me, and if a Maruchan scum leads us to Glowball or a Glowball scum leads us to Maruchan, I will chain lynch them both, just for you.

@Amrun - rereading my case, I suppose some of my quotes could be interpreted as playstyle, but not all of them. Her response to my wall, I buy as playstyle, if only just from the "blowball" comment and response--but she still has not defended anything that I've said in there. I also don't think her case on me could be interpreted as 'playstyle'. The fact that she brought up her "suspicions" about me, and has done absolutely nothing since then (after numerous people have called her out on it) comes down to a little bit more than playstyle as well. I also feel most of my "summation spoiler" has less to do with playstyle and more to do with actions. Maybe you could elaborate for me?


P-Edit
@Glowball - even if you don't see fit to respond to any of my accusations, could you maybe re-iterate your cases for Saul and Maruchan? Or are you just going to tell me to go back and re-read? (The last question isn't rhetorical, by the way)