Mini 1194: Reverse Mafia [Game Over]

[Parama]

Pomegranate +3
...
What the hell I think is going down in this thread:
SC/Bub/malp scumteam.

yeah.
the problem was that nobody but Pome really looked townie enough for me to revive D2 :/

[ToastyToast]

yeh...im kinda mad because I think town played WAYYYY better than scum.

but it was a fun game and I enjoyed my role. I think the voting ability was too much scum-power for a mini game, but it would probably work better in a large, where enough ppl can overwhelm the vote-switch ability

[Packbat]

I'm with Parama - the vote-stealing role was quite powerful enough as a one-shot, making it unlimited is simply broken.

@ToastyToast: They steal my vote or IceGuy's and they have three votes - revive anyone else, kill whoever, revive malpascp. It's only a day delay.

[Packbat]

Pomegranate +3
...
What the hell I think is going down in this thread:
SC/Bub/malp scumteam.

yeah.
the problem was that nobody but Pome really looked townie enough for me to revive D2 :/

I'm glad you said that - I was feeling really guilty about badgering town into reviving scum.

[Parama]

On D2,
bobsnox was not looking good.
kiwi was too stupid to revive even though I had him as town (note: a PM to me is what got him modkilled and super-blacklisted from me; I will never play a game with this idiot again.)
AntB was... just there.
SC still fit too nicely into my 3-man scumteam (and I was right about all but him soooo)
Trow was one of my top scumpicks based on ISO alone.

[ToastyToast]

yeah I pretty much had the same reads. Wuts strange is that one of the reasons I thought Pom was town was that she came off as not really caring if she was revived or not (hmm VT?). So yeah, if we had revived Bub instead (the other option that day), the game would've turned out differently, methinks.

[Parama]

The problem with Pome's role is that it is an automatic mafia win if she's revived.
Simulations:
Going into night 1 with 2:1, day 1 starts with 2 mafia having votes and only one town having votes. Scum wins.
Going into night 2 with 3:1, day 2 starts with 2 mafia having votes and only one town having votes. Scum wins.
Going into night 3 with 4:1, day 3 starts with 2 mafia having votes and two town having votes. With a quicker vote, scum wins. Most likely scenario because scum know who's town but town don't.
It doesn't matter past that point, because if town goes into night 3 with 5 town alive, it's an automatic town win (half of town revived wincon).
The role is inherently broken because it means scum win with a single revive.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I feel really bad about winning this way, it seem kinda hollow. Pom's role was way too powerfull. So powerfull to the point where I basically stopped playing the game today and started prod dodging. I didn't think the game would end with this day, and that's why I threw in the little BS at the end about bobsnox. I was trying to screw with their minds a little bit, make 'em think too much about bobbers. Had the game continued, I would've suggested that pom use her role to give the vote to bobsonx.

I felt like I played pretty well up until that point though, and I was pleased that I got to the top of most revive charts for the early part of the day. Also, thank you Packbat for this:

That's because you're an extremely good scum player.

[Packbat]

You did your job this game, Bub. Your teammates betrayed your alignment, that's all.

[Pomegranate]

You did your job this game, Bub. Your teammates betrayed your alignment, that's all.

Because there was no reason not to; going into the day I realized that although I would probably play in an obvscum fashion, it didn't matter because it was the way to win. I do think my PR was extremely powerful, but I do think it would be balanced if it was a one-shot.

I did really enjoy the game mechanic. However, I think that if scum isn't revived D0, it often becomes very obvious if scum is revived later, because of the NK.

I think I' ll have more to say soon, when I have more time to post.

[Packbat]

You did your job this game, Bub. Your teammates betrayed your alignment, that's all.

Because there was no reason not to; going into the day I realized that although I would probably play in an obvscum fashion, it didn't matter because it was the way to win. I do think my PR was extremely powerful, but I do think it would be balanced if it was a one-shot.

Indeed - you guys did your job too. If it

had

been a one-shot it would have been risky to quickhammer like that, but as it stood subtlety was not needed.

I did really enjoy the game mechanic. However, I think that if scum isn't revived D0, it often becomes very obvious if scum is revived later, because of the NK.

That's something I noticed - you basically start at LyLo, which is weird.

[Packbat]

EBWOP:

also that

you basically start at LyLo.

[Slaxx]

Heavily scumsided setup.

Vote role is broken. Bub played a strong early game but by the end the team was obvious, in there defense they could be though because of how easy it was

[AntB]

Like I said, town was in an unwinnable position... gg guys.

[AntB]

However, I think that if scum isn't revived D0, it often becomes very obvious if scum is revived later, because of the NK.

Not really, scum no kills if revived N0 and frames the next person.

[bobsnox]

I knew Pom was scum

[ChannelDelibird]

Setup

Yes, the Vote Switcher was broken, and I should have seen it before. I'm really not sure why I didn't twig that when I was designing the setup. What's more, as you will see from the role PM, I actually made a mistake and did not specify in the wording that it could only be used if Pom was alive - that the mafia only used it when Pom was revived was a coincidence. So I am sorry about that, because it definitely did skew the game, a game that town probably deserved to win.

My main aim with the setup was to have fun with the Reverse mechanics. I didn't want to have people just going "I'm a cop, revive me" (like the last time I ran a Reverse game, although the less said about that the better), and I wanted the roles to be fresh. So I knew I was going to use a Vote Switcher role but I probably should have made it one-shot, or possibly even a town power. The other things seemed fairly obvious ideas considering the nature of the game - the ability to kill Limbo players, block revives, the Strong-Spirited Townie. I'm quite happy with those roles as I think particularly the Purger gave a really interesting should-we-or-shouldn't-we-revive dynamic.

[ChannelDelibird]

Reverse Mafia

This is the question I really want an answer to - how do you guys feel about the mechanic as a whole? My own setup mistakes apart, did you feel it worked well enough as a game? Would you be interested in playing a different (possibly Large Theme) version? How could it be improved?

[Bub Bidderskins]

Aside from the mega-role that pom got, I think the mechanic was interesting. However, it makes it hard on the town because the only flips they get are town flips. And if scum don't get revived at the start, then they're basically confirmed when there's a night kill when they're revived later. Maybe you could make it where the scum get to kill even if they're in limbo. Also, the town really needs at least one information role, maybe two. Without flips, the town has very little to go on, and so they need some extra info.

[AntB]

I feel it worked well.I'd definitely play again (and hopefully be more active).

Even if scum was revived N0, all they have to do is sumbit a no kill and people would probably go along believing they are conf town. It goes for any night really.

[Packbat]

I would probably be out for Reverse Mafia in the future - like Bub said, it's really hard on town.

[Magua]

Biggest problem I see is that the most important votes of the game are right at the beginning when town has no information. Later on, when the town ostensibly has information, are the least important votes of the game.

[Parama]

Guys you're dumb scum couldn't kill night 1 stop doing dumb things.

[ToastyToast]

Town definitely needs an information role. Also, summoner isn't that powerful because although it can get you closer to wincon, it also kills off a town player, with the possibility if a scum replacement. Something about that role was..meh.

I like my role and strong spirited townie and purger, but there definitely needs to be an investigative...or maybe a vote block to counter the vote switcher?

[MrTrow]

@packbat: if you still want to know why i was 'short version: against' a bub shot as long as malp unvotes.
- i still considered you/antb/(at least as likely) malp a reasonable alternative (that suggestion perfectly fitted the team)
- would be relatively busy till deadline so i wasn`t sure i`d be around for a complete debate on the 'long version' (needed to get the idea out even if i wouldn`t time for the complete case)
- was too drunk at that moment to consider the benefits of allowing malp to believe bub was the 'relatively sure' target.
actually originally i had "(need to read up a thing or two anyway)" stated at the long version, thought i could leave it out as i clearly wasn`t a target of discussion.


about the powers, i`m sticking to everything i said while the game was ongoing:
- i don`t see the town purpose of the strong-spirited-townie:
if killed we have a confirmed town in limbo the next day: most logical revive
if revived (again): there is a confirmed town alive at night: most logical kill (after all he was the logical kill before being confirmed)
it does nothing but delay the game by a day.

- the summoner only makes sense to resurrect 2 PR`s in a single day (doc/vig combo(prob-overpowered) was the first that came to mind when i read the summoner-claim)

As for informative roles: true town doesn`t have any other information, however a cop holding 1/3rd of the votes/ on a single 'not investigating the most recent corpse' always knowing everyting is also quite strong.

The mechanic as a whole: i`d probably try it again. (but with the 'constant lylo' i understand why some players wouldn`t)

2 questions remain though:
@scum: why crypto`s vote? (from run-perspective the least logical choice)

@cdb: if pom couldn`t target the same player twice in a row, how was it no longer possible for the limbo(non malp) player and the intact living townie(or 2 living voters) to pull the planned quick-tie-hammer on bob?