Mini 1195: The Beehive Mystery (GAME OVER)

[Beck]

MT, your hammer while looking pro-town could easily be a scum hammer SINCE no mafia was on the counter wagon anymore

Your wishy washy voting for half the playerbase doesn't help either

Racer, FU

How did NOBODY see what I had said, Scott had done nothing useful all game, his predecessor was also the same way.

[Sotty7]

I had noticed that Scott and Tommy basically were the same person on day three. They gave the same reasoning and had near on the same opinions. That did make me think long and hard about Scott, but in the end I didn't act on it. Fo shame.

Live and learn though.

Thanks for modding Klazam

[subgenius]

Well played, scum. That makes me 0-5 on MS, which is a bit discouraging. The end of day 2 was pretty exciting, though, and I felt supremely vindicated when Llama flipped scum. I only wish I had lived through the night to bask in it for a moment. The amount of replacement going on in this game was really disappointing and affected the game negatively. Sotty, I think you did as well if not better than could have been reasonably expected. I was optimistic that you would pick Scott, but I can't blame you for going with Racer. Racer, why did you replace in if you didn't want to play the game?

One thing that blew me away about this game was how people who were being incredibly unhelpful and anti-town were getting passes (Ivan and Llama) while far less offensive players were getting a lot of negative attention (Me and ICE). That baffled me.

Ivan's play baffled me as well. I'd be interested in a more thorough explanation of their strategy, but I doubt we'll get it.

Any (constructive) criticism of my play is welcomed.

[Beck]

The strategy of not killing at all as SK, I felt could have worked but ivan would never have won regardless.

They were obviously scummy, I knew he wasn't mafia and that vig claim I knew was horseshit.

[Whiskers]

Sleepy: That's exactly what it is. He replaced in and only "played" for two days, so I'll give him some slack.
If a player makes it to my blacklist, I will complain about him if he replaces into a game I'm in, or /out of a game we're both signed up for (unless it's a game I really want).

Sub: The problem was that we had shitty players like racer playing all game, so we assumed they were just shitty players and not scum.

[Klazam]

Whiskers- Reveal mason QT or not?

[subgenius]

I feel like it's an especially risky strategy if the SK in question was never bullet proof. I'd also like to hear more about why he decided to throw his strategy out the window to kill me, but I doubt any more info is forthcoming from either Ivan.

@Whiskers
I think it was obvious that the Ivans and Llama were a step above shitty players, though. They showed enough intelligence and commitment to play the game, but both were being seemingly purposely unhelpful, and people let it slide.

I think one of the biggest lessons of this game is that sometimes scum do obviously scummy things, and players should be held accountable for them. This was not a game of subtle scum tells in the case of Llama, Da Koolzy, and Ivan. Tommy and Scott, I felt were tougher to pin down, though.

[Llamarble]

Sub, you seem like a really good player. I don't think 0/5 reflects your skill.
You also get the distinction of being part of the first town to lynch llamascum

[Scott Brosius]

I was actually pretty torn who to bring to LYLO with me. Sotty had modded (well I guess forced into modding after CML vanished) a game where I was scum where I didn't really bus anyone but had the same middle of the road with me. I was instantly killing Beck but when Sotty replaced in, I became weary that I would be figured out. I was really glad racer voted first. I wanted to play up the well, I'm not thrilled with this case since I had a town read but I guess MT/racer is scum. I did not want to be the first to vote. I see there is some discussion about voting first in LYLO being town/scum tell. I don't really see it as either. I think it's advantageous as scum to pin it as 1v1 especially leaving it up to a player who probably won't be lynched.

I also did not believe Sotty when she said she thought racer was the final scum. That didn't seem sincere at all and got me worried. It looked like an appeal for content more than anything.

I was also wondering why Ice was lynched. Him and I basically were saying the same things all game, yet he was the one who got lynched for it. We were both trying to keep Beck in place, favoring logic over emotion. Yet when it came down to it, Ivan went after him. There was no way I was killing Ivan after that comment at the end of D3 saying if he died look at me. Especially when I had a mason still alive.

I stand by a lot of what I said in terms of Beck even though I obviously had scummy motives. There is no way you can think Ivan was an SK with the way kills happened. I was in utter disbelief at his flip. Also using VCA against Ice after being completely against it earlier was hilariously hypocritical. Not that I was going to say that in thread =). Also MT's hammer was completely town. There is no chance in that situation that he would hammer scum simply for town cred. The situation of 3 scum still alive D3>>>>>any potential town cred (THAT HE DID NOT EVEN END UP REALLY GETTING)

Would really love to hear the thought process behind the SK play.

The definitely not masons gambit of sorts was definitely interesting, but when it came down to it, (not that you knew this) but we eliminated ourselves, eliminated CA/MT for being on the wagon, it was pretty obvious who they were to scum.

Setup was balanced I thought. Masons being the first 3 NKs seriously sapped their power. But otherwise I think any more town PRs would have been townsided especially if the masons had even just another day alive. More frequent VCs would be the only mod criticism I had. I too am struggling through a game finding replacements, easily the worst in terms of that I've ever modded.

As everyone is complaining about, there are 2 things I never understand. This game it wasn't important, but looking into NKs to an extent. Call it WIFOM but I'm not basing complete cases off of it but I think it's definitely something to look into. This game, the NKs were obvious so not really important. Second is that when someone dies, any opinions they have die with them essentially. Whiskers suspected me, dead never mentioned. Beck suspected me, dead never mentioned.

[Llamarble]

The situation of 3 scum still alive D3>>>>>any potential town cred (THAT HE DID NOT EVEN END UP REALLY GETTING)

>__>
I was so sure you or especially Tommy were going to go "UH OH DEADLINE" and hammer Sub.
Until this game I secretly harbored hopes of an "Unlynchable" title under my name. Bah.

[Scott Brosius]

I considered it, but decided that we would definitely be the next 2 to go if that happened and I was probably in a better spot than Tommy.

[Magic Trainer]

MT, your hammer while looking pro-town could easily be a scum hammer SINCE no mafia was on the counter wagon anymore

Sigh. Weigh the benifets versus the costs. The Costs outweigh the benefits to the point where I'd get fucking bankrupt as scum. I'm assuming you think everyone would classify me as

confirmed

town and let me go scot free in lylo. If this is your fear, then there are two important things to learn. One, most people are not as stupid as you think they are, they are well aware of WIFOM situations and thefor wouldn't in the strictest sense, confirm a player

indefinitely

. Second, in lylo, no one would have cared about me hammering for looking pro-town. I'd lose any town cred gained as scum and it'd be null. I'd then gain suspicion for while I'm still alive as well.

Occams Razor is generally reliable.

Your wishy washy voting for half the playerbase doesn't help either

Okay. You are making a poor generalization that "wishy washy" is bad. (Meh, I was actually tempted to bring up a couple instances of scum attacking me for being wishy washy.)

Were my Votes justified (Y/N)? (----> If the answer in any scenario is yes then disregard wishy washyness as a stupid wiki tell) Changing your mind is very natural, if not inevitable. Plus all my reads were consistent all around.

Beck/ICE/Spoon were all around town all the time. Llama/Jill/Scott/ were Null interchangeably Tommy was confirmed scum a long time ago. Ivan was scum to me on the condition that Tommy was scum. (Hence timidly pushing him/revealing his hydra head). I withdrew the blinker scum read when I realized he was a Mason, and I was forced to compromise on all my strongest reads because no one wanted to vote with me.

Blinker ---> People agree but refuse to vote
Koolzy/Jil ---> Compromise based on deadline/lack of support. People still objected even when they had scum reads on one or both.
Tommy ---> Deadline extension iirc yet no one followed
Sub ---> Compromised based on Lack of Tommy input/he was connected to Tommy/Ivan from mpov.
Llama --> Deadline lynch/called out scummy posts (Which I explained...). I don't even understand why people would question a literally last minute vote to save a no lynch.

The Common theme is I held consistent town reads and interchanged votes because I wanted a goddamn lynch to go through that was at least somewhat related to my stronger reads so I could connect the dots later.

[Beck]

If you stayed, town probably would have won

Your replacements just sucked.

Oh well, life moves on.

[Magic Trainer]

Ah the questions are pointless now really. But basically, I hated how you made these big cases Tommy/blinker and then just dropped them as soon as the new sparkly came along. I can get that you were frustrated that no one was listening, but to me it was like you didn't really want to lynch these guys and that your cases were bluster. I never felt you truly push your Tommy case at all. And the case was good. I had convinced myself it was too good, but that's not the point. I think you need to beat on that drum a lot more. Don't just abandon your reads for the town. Yes there are times when you should compromise, but there are a lot more times where you should get a megaphone, stand on your soap box and ask over and over why we aren't lynching so and so.

The best way to get people to talk about your cases if you are feeling ignored is to single people out. "Hey Beck, what do you think of what I posted about Tommy in post yadda yadda?" That why you get direct feedback on the case you built AND you can work on convincing him and drawing others into your dialog. Repeat as necessarily.

Eh. I realized blinker was a Mason too late and hoped no one would notice. I really should have pushed Tommy harder, I don't know. Reflecting back I compromised waaay too much. I don't remember the exact reason why I let Tommy go so easily, it was probably due to deadline/inner-frustration. I did notice a small but very important technical problem in my case that made it harder to push the momentum.

I've got to ask though, what specific things do you think I should have pushed harder? I felt like I was translating a very strong gut read into logical points. Usually when I do that, my points tend to sound less persuasive than I believe them to be, hence why I'm a little unsure of how more persuasive I could have been.

Thank you very much for your input.

Oh well, life moves on.

Amen bro.

[Magic Trainer]

@Ivan, could we please see the hydra QT?

@Racer, I was probably too harsh when I insulted you. Kudos to correctly identifying scum.

[Llamarble]

Hahaha, every topic in little Italy is either nighttime or over right now.

[SleepyKrew]

Blacklisting Llamamarble for ongoing game discussion.

[Llamarble]

I hope you're joking?

[Beck]

from what I have read on site, SK can't be taken serious about 95% of the time.

[ICEninja]

I'm sorry i played terribly this game.

I'm at an extremely bad place in my life right now, so comments on the game will probably not be level headed. I'll refrain.

Congrats scum. ICE out.

[Whiskers]

Yes, go ahead and post the Mason QT. For all I care. I don't know why you wouldn't.

I only have one post in it anyway, the other mason died the night I replaced in and just didn't reply, so my contribution & discussion there was 0.

Subgenius: I think 0/5 reflects your skill excellently; You are good, you get Nightkilled. The town, missing you, sets its phasers to "kill" and points them at itself.

Scott: Yeah, I don't understand once, when we are dead, we start getting ignored. It seems like the reads of dead players (espcially me, the dead MASON who posted all of the MASON READS listed in the MASON QT) are the best reads, as they can confirm players, or at least point you in the right direction.

Llamarble: I was going for "Bulletproof." I feel your pain, bro.

[Llamarble]

I felt both sides played pretty well and had some mistakes this game.
D1 went really well for scum until I decided to hammer at stupid oclock.
Town managing to lynch me D2 when I was at L-3 and sub at L-1 with hours to deadline was a miracle of towniness.
Town made 2 scumlynches and got a vote onto scum in lylo, so it couldn't really have been much closer than it was.

[Klazam]

Mason QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/38NaUiqAmaave

[subgenius]

Town managing to lynch me D2 when I was at L-3 and sub at L-1 with hours to deadline was a miracle of towniness.

That was certainly the highlight of the game for me. I was serious when I said I would be willing to self hammer if it looked like a NL was on it's way, thinking that my death would be better than a NL, but then I decided, "Screw that, if they want to kill me, they'll have to vote for me and make it happen." I fully expected that I would be lynched in the end, I just hoped that the hammer would provide useful information for the town. Ending the day with a scum lynch was far beyond my hopes for how that situation would turn out.

I do feel badly about going so hard after Beck in D2. I really thought I was on to something, and kept on pushing even after I was starting to see faults in my own case. By the time I backed off, I had dug myself in way too deeply, and couldn't come up with a way to end the conversation gracefully.

[Tommy]

Well played, Scott.

Llamarble, I felt that I couldn't hammer subgenius after publicly refusing to join the wagon and announcing that he was the most pro-town player. Maybe I should have done it anyway and argued that a mislynch is preferable to no lynch.