Prozacs Basic Theme 3 - GAME OVER

[Nocmen]

Wait, 21 people? Or is that including the one that was killed? Do we have a hidden player, or am I just confused?

[Nocmen]

mykonian's post, with this playerlist, makes me ask the following questions about meta, to all of the players.

1. How often do you feel you use meta as an argument in Mafia?

2. Do you prefer proactive (using as a reason to investigate a player's actions) or reactive (using to backup/contradict what a player did) meta?

3. How often are you to research meta on a player whose meta you don't know in the game?

4. Do you prefer to use meta to defend a player as being town, or attack them for being scum?

And My answers:
1. Occasionally, only as needed in a tough situation, once or twice a game, but never in a high pressure situation like end game. I prefer to use it as a way of noting a disconnect in thinking/actions.

2. Reactive, I'll almost only use it as a way of backing up reasoning in the game.

3. Rarely. I try to use it when it's brought up, and see if I agree with it, if it's a player whose meta I don't know.

4. Both, leaning towards the attacking/scum arguements.

[Nocmen]

Now, Fate, why should I consider this Katsuki wagon as anything but mindless banter/personal feud/jokes?

[Nocmen]

1: He is making an active effort to seem town by asking questions.
2: He is asking Fate for a legit reason to vote Katsuki... what townie does this? Mafia lookin' for a reason to join the bandwagon.

1. Many of these players are high end players, many have played with each other before. I prefer these as relevant questions as opposed to random ones. May as well get discussion going on a topic that forces them into a position now (as opposed to letting scum who claim to never use meta be able to use meta to try and push a bad reason).
2. Who said I was looking to join the wagon? I just wanted to know if its a random vote or if they have a reason for it.

Great Case.

Vote: Blackberry

[Nocmen]

So lets see now:

People who are voting me for my vote on blackberry: Fate, CSL, Jackalope?
People who are voting me for my meta mentions: Blackberry, Parabollocks

Where to look for scum buddying me: Rest of votes - Reck, myko, Katsuki.

That's where to look for the scum, one of those three.

Please, explain to me how the case Blackberry posted makes me scum, because all I get from it is everyone who aks questions at the start of the game is scum?

[Nocmen]

So lets see now:

People who are voting me for my vote on blackberry: Fate, CSL, Jackalope?
People who are voting me for my meta mentions: Blackberry, Parabollocks

Where to look for scum buddying me: Rest of votes - Reck, myko, Katsuki.

That's where to look for the scum, one of those three.

Please, explain to me how the case Blackberry posted makes me scum, because all I get from it is everyone who aks questions at the start of the game is scum?

'all I get from it is everyone who aks questions at the start of the game is scum'... I don't see town saying this TBH. Although I am hesitant because of how quickly people hopped onto you, I'm content with keeping my vote here.

Why don't you explain the reasons for voting me, eh?

Because I disagree with your case that you posted. Where you said I was acting town for asking questions. As mentioned above, if that's what the case comes down to, asking questions, would you extend that to others who ask questions to get discussion started? Would this change if I had questions that are about nothing relevant to the game? I'm not voting you as an OMGUS, I'm voting you because I feel it was the first case that had weak reasoning in this game. Though my goal is now to figure out who the scum sheeping you are.

For questioning Fate's vote - that simply leads into a discussion about what you feel my intentions were - where you think I was trying to get on the wagon. Now that's just getting into a WIFOM game. You can say I was trying to join the wagon, and I'll just say that I was questioning votes to get discussion started. That's something we'll just have to take different sides on.

[Nocmen]

I didn't say you were acting townie, I said you were making an active effort to appear townie. Not to mention, the questions you asked, I think did a negative service in that now mafia will be consciously aware to avoid what they've done as meta, etc.

...

I just wanted to know if its a random vote or if they have a reason for it.

I'll just say that I was questioning votes to get discussion started

Which is it exactly? 'Just getting discussion started' is different than 'trying to see if he had a reason.' One is general and one is very specific.

...

I do however agree with you on the mafia sheeping me part. Regardless if you are mafia or not, at least one or two mafia have either sheeped me (personally I just wanted to see how you reacted, and I don't think you're reacted the most town-like to my accusations) or mafia would bus for whatever reason.

Elliberth is waiting with a loaded pistol. You better convince us you're town.

PS: The bullet's in Ellibereth's pistols are painted like dice since we're at a casino.

Questioning votes - getting actual discussion going instead of pointless banter. Getting talk behind the votes, not just random votes.

[Nocmen]

Yup, L-1.

Joanne Keir. Gold Digger. I've come to not gamble at the casino, just find a possible companion. Townie.

[Nocmen]

Wait, you don't want to investigate the wagon, yet you're willing to switch over so fast? I already put you as likely scum hopping on my wagon, and wow, you just did it again.

Unvote, Vote: mykonian

[Nocmen]

Ellibereth, if you're trying to use scare tactics, they're not working. You are asking several people for claims in lieu of proper scumhunting, which is scummy.

The bad thing is Stranger has sucked this much as town.

Read brotherhood of wolf.

I don't give a damn about The Brotherhood of the Wolf. Let's worry about right now. Right now Ellibereth is implying people are scummy without actually giving us evidence that they are.

Why does he want Bunnylover to claim?
Why does he want me to claim?
Why did he want Nocmen to claim?
Why does he want Katsuki to claim?
Why does he want Bogre to claim?

None of those are clear from his posts. I am aware of a Nocmen wagon, but he seems to have merely nudged it, which actually worsens it as opportunistic.

More importantly, if he thinks we are scummy, which is implied by all this "Claim! Claim! Claim!" stuff, why is his vote sitting idle?

that's a good point. As shown, if you want a claim, you pressure and vote them until it happens. Not just ask for claims.

lol fuck mykonian

he just calls me scum in literally EVERY GAME and happens to get lucky most of the time

well not this time

Anyone who's like RECK SO SCUMMEH FOR USING FLAVOR fuck you go read PBT 2

And now getting angry for a vote on him? I'd prefer if you at least gave a read, do you agree with me that his (mykon) votes are opportunistic?

[Nocmen]

Proof? You ask for proof?

I know an easy way. Let the mod tell us.

vote SC

(and no reck, you are still scum)

Why aren't you lynched yet?

[Nocmen]

Well, it's not OMGUS.
His posts are just scummy as fuck '_'

[Nocmen]

2: He is asking Fate for a legit reason to vote Katsuki... what townie does this? Mafia lookin' for a reason to join the bandwagon.

QFT. Quite a bit on the passive side.

vote nocmen

I could also see this as buddying/supporting a buddy, btw. But unnatural it is in any case.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: KATSUKI

YOU GUYS

THOUGHT

I

WAS

KIDDING

Wuss.

But ok, Noc's name seems to be the flavour millery thing a mod could give to a VT.

Sigh.

unvote vote Kat

It's late now, I'll investigate the wagon properly tomorrow. It was lightning quick, so I don't know what one can find from the placement. Reasons given etc might be a better start.

that's odd. My reckdar is bleeping.

scum again?

unvote vote reck

Fate, we can get another scum to claim. And then we hammer. Because you know just as well as I do that Kat is really town.

wagon hopping like a bitch, overly careful formulation intent to avoid provocation early on, trying to pressure Fate's vote (good luck on THAT one), deflection of his own attack onto Fate too.

He probably can't explain his own votes.

You assume too much.

Don't see how wagon hopping is actually a tell. (I can totally explain why the opposite is, which is why reck is scum btw), the first post was over the top and

wow did you catch that!

. I'm totally allowed to try to push fate around if that is any help to me, and I'm totally clueless what "deflection of his own attack onto fate" means.

so if dramonic would be so kind to shut up when he talks about things he doesn't understand, I'd be very pleased. (yes, this means you apparently don't have a clue why I'm voting, and this is your problem, not mine.)

Please, explain then. Why reck is scum, why the other votes, etc.

[Nocmen]

EDWOP:
I like Fate's #200 much better than the others, in tone and content.

That said: you shouldn't be lynching me to confirm town at this point, esp. there are better choices who are actually scum. I've got a laundry list growing.

Then mind giving this list?

Yup, L-1.

Joanne Keir. Gold Digger. I've come to not gamble at the casino, just find a possible companion. Townie.

#1 sounds like a lot of interesting flavor for just a townie

Reckoner has claimed he does not have dramatic/intersting flavor.

Townies have dramatic/intersting flavor. If Reck has dramatic flavoring in his text as mafia, he's pretending he doesn't. He is scum.

I think that's a bit too much of a guess, I wouldn't be surprised if townie's have a variety of flavor, from comparing mine with the sample one given. And I hve to have that make me feel of Reck as town for that.



Jackalope as possible scum:
I'd have to agree as well. He was a possible one for who I felt was just hopping on the wagon on me, and that * gives me another reason to think that.

Unvote, Vote: TheJackalope

, though if people want to get a wagon on myko, I'll gladly switch back.

[Nocmen]

...

Also #25 once again makes me think Nocmen is mafia trying to get a legit reason to join the bandwagon.

Vote: Nocmen

1: He is making an active effort to seem town by asking questions.
2: He is asking Fate for a legit reason to vote Katsuki... what townie does this? Mafia lookin' for a reason to join the bandwagon.

This.

VOTE: Nocmen

Believe that makes -1.

I worry about Katsuki and Ellibereth's switches.

Puts someone at L-1 while at the same time mentioning other people he thinks are suspect (isn't this what people claim mafia do so they can switch at any time?).

I don't think it's just mafia, I know part of my playstyle, if I think someone is suspicious, but not my top suspect, I'll move my vote over to them if that's what it takes to force a claim.

[Nocmen]

Xvart: your case on Bogre is the lack of a defense?

Even though I think that's not a good case, it's still a better reason than most others who have hopped on his wagon have given.

I'd much rather get the wagon on myko/jackalope.

Reck's reaction is...well...reckless (no pun intended). I really don't like 282 from him, but I can't tell if him and myko are distancing from each other or not. But it just seems a bit too offensive from both sides to think they are both scum right now.

[Nocmen]

OH MAN LOOK HOW SCUMMY I AM

So you knew you were not supposed to be doing that. Can we have reasons why you did vote bogre?

And why did you unvote Bogre when he's on L-1 before a claim?

[Nocmen]

OH MAN LOOK HOW SCUMMY I AM

So you knew you were not supposed to be doing that. Can we have reasons why you did vote bogre?

And why did you unvote Bogre when he's on L-1 before a claim?

Because I did like the wagon, but it isn't my preferred lynch. So I see no reason to force a claim which might not help us at all.

What about if the hammer occured without a claim? You still said you liked the wagon, and now all of the sudden that it gets to L-1 you have cold feet.

[Nocmen]

Switch...as like bus driver?

[Nocmen]

EBWOP: And that didn't come up in the preview, o_0

[Nocmen]

So...
This means that abilities are triggered such as food/beverages? Killing = poison/spiked drinks? What do you think about your role with regards to that?

Also, does the waiter count as casino staff? Aren't casino workers essentially the mafia? Though does a waiter count as that, or a different group?

I'm okay with the claim as itself, but the flavor behind it really concerns me.

[Nocmen]

Vote: mykonian

for obvious reasons.

[Nocmen]

You don't think vote-hopping with bad reason is a scummy thing, so you won't understand why that vote of yours is scummy as fuck.

no please, explain. Why is it scummy here? Because this sounds a lot like avoiding giving reasons about that post.

And you've been avoiding giving good reasons for your votes. And that's my answer to why I have the vote on you. Because the only vote of yours that doesn't seem like hopping on a wagon or with a horrible reason is the one on Oversoul.

Fate: Why the hell do you think myko is suddenly not scum? Or do you just want Katsuki dead (again) so suddenly? The issue I have with that is that if it was anyone else, I'd be tempted to believe it more. But something just doesn't seem right to me.

Let's get rid of obv scum myko,then move on to obv scum Jackalope, then SC and scooby.

[Nocmen]

well, noc, if you don't get it yet, just check the wagon you are on. Just have a quick look at the iso of every player. You tell me that they are town and that that is a good wagon.

Do I think it's a good wagon? Yes, I believe you are scum.

Do I think everyone is town on it? No. As I've said in my previous posts, I'm very highly suspicious of Jackalope, and to a lesser extent scooby.

[Nocmen]

I just wish this wagon gets to claim range asap and myko can claim and depending of the claim we lynch or we get another wagon.

Fate should also stop wasting our time (the wagon is sooner or later going to hit claim range) and claim if myko should stay alive, etc.

There are a lot of scummy people alive (I'm basically paranoid about everyone). And I think 3-4 of them depend on wether myko is town or scum.

@Noc, you barely mentioned me in day 1. What happened today that made you consider voting for me over other options?

Of the people who barely posted day 1, you rubbed me most the wrong way. And it's the one lurker I got a solid read on from the posts. I'm not saying that you are more or less scummy than the other lurkers, but with the amount of posts they had, I'm uncertain of them yet.

I just wish this wagon gets to claim range asap and myko can claim and depending of the claim we lynch or we get another wagon.

Fate should also stop wasting our time (the wagon is sooner or later going to hit claim range) and claim if myko should stay alive, etc.

There are a lot of scummy people alive (I'm basically paranoid about everyone). And I think 3-4 of them depend on wether myko is town or scum.

@Noc, you barely mentioned me in day 1. What happened today that made you consider voting for me over other options?

What the fuck kind of post is this

RECK OPEN YOUR FUCKING EYES AND LOOK AT THE PEOPLE YOU'RE WAGONNING WITH.

YES I AM MASONS WITH MYKO YOU DUMB FUCKS

NOW GET THE FUCK OFF AND LYNCH KATSUKI

Unvote

.

well, noc, if you don't get it yet, just check the wagon you are on. Just have a quick look at the iso of every player. You tell me that they are town and that that is a good wagon.

Do I think it's a good wagon? Yes, I believe you are scum.

Do I think everyone is town on it? No. As I've said in my previous posts, I'm very highly suspicious of Jackalope, and to a lesser extent scooby.

Have you ever seen a game where scum bus right out of the doors of day 2? No thank you.

Oh, and since you are going to bring up 2 scumteams, lets be quicker. There is one with the kill flavor of a gun, one with a knife. I think Prozac to be traditional enough that means we are up against a serial killer.

Just think of what your (20 player game -> about 5 player scumteam?) top 5 scum is and check how many of them are on my wagon. No way you are on a good wagon

Where did I say there were 2 scumteams? All of a sudden you imply that because you dont think it's possible a buddy or two of yours would hop on your wagon so quickly?

I do have opinions on other players. I just haven't voiced then.
I might once I'm out of class.

That sounds like an "oh shit, I guess I gotta do more analysis on faking ideas"

Vote: dramonic

And why scooby?

Oh...now with the requoting of 420...I see it now.

Unvote

God, this game moves quickly.

Alright, Either Reck or Xanatos is scum.

VOTE: Xanatos

Why them? Don't have anything else to add about how much has happened since your last post?

Vote: jackalope

[Nocmen]

Fate, what do you think of Reck?

And what do you think of Reck? Besides you think he's scum, but you haven't said a damn word why.

[Nocmen]

Fate: if i take out Katsuki with you, promise to go after Jackalope tomorrow with me?

[Nocmen]

Unvote, Vote: Katsuki

so much useless garbage in his posts. I should have just voted before reading his ISO

[Nocmen]

dramonic, why did you kill him?

What are you referring to?

[Nocmen]

dramonic, why did you kill him?

What are you referring to?

the man who died in the night phase.

Which one? Please explain more.

[Nocmen]

You're slow Nocmen
He got in my way trekker

No, I'm just tired of his riddles. Talk straight and it makes it easier for everyone.

[Nocmen]

Holy balls, how can you believe that claim?

[Nocmen]

Unvote, vote: Jackalope

[Nocmen]

FIRST OF ALL:
Just because someone isn't being voted RIGH THIS FUCKIN SECOND, doesn't mean people think they are town. WE CAN ONLY LYNCH ONE PERSON AT A TIME DID YOU MISS THE FUCKING MEMO?

SECOND:
Stranger is probably town, he's ANOTHER person who's play style you don't know shit about, so SHUT UP AND SHEEP FOR AWHILE.

Last time you asked me to SHEEP Katsuki and you see how that ended, even though I TOLD you he was more likely a derpgambitter than a scumbag trying to discredit you.

I'm meh about xvart. I'm probably going to need to iso him since I bareluy remember he is on the game.

The fact that I can't get a wagon on dramonic even though he is scummy as FUCK and chainsawed MYKONIAN, who happens to be your mason partner, is pretty telling IMO.

So then if you didn't believe in the Katsuki wagon, why did you join it?

Dram is Dram is Dram.

He plays like this every time?

and he isn't on a public blacklist of some sort?

Don't like your wagon fate. Lets do

vote thejakalope

There are a few players whose play are pissing me off much more than dram right now.

Also, more votes on Jakalope gogogo.

[Nocmen]

I just assumed you were on the wagon for all the bitching you did in the quoted post about sheeping fate.

You're trying to use whatever it takes to paint Fate and dram in a bad light.

[Nocmen]

This. Fucking. Game.

I swear this game is an elaborate attempt to troll the fuck outta everyone.

^
I'm going to go with town reaction since this is my current stance and I don't see scum posting this kind of things.

Hi thanks for telling us he's a buddy.

[Nocmen]

Vote: Scooby

Obviously xvart's buddy.

[Nocmen]

scooby:

Previously, you made pretty good arguments on players. The first one that rubbed me wrong was the joining on the myko wagon early D2. Since then, everything seems like neutral, trying to go with what you can, especially with the vote on xvart, where you don't see it, you ISO him, and suddenly decide he's scummy enough to lynch.

Also, claims to be scumhunting. Again, this happened earlier, but near the end of yesterday, it seemed more like hes just fending off any attack of a vote or two.


However, the more I look into it, I'm willing to make a compromise, and go after dramonic too. Depending on whether he can stop the BS games and straighforward tell us what he knows.

And if it takes a wagon to get that out of him, fine:

Unvote, Vote: Dramonic

[Nocmen]

Your reply, even before trekker's flip. You didn't disbelieve it, or produce a vote. You basically alluded to having targeted one of the people who died N1. How trekker knew this, I don't know now. But that response...is off.

[Nocmen]

Did you manage to read the whole game before that vote?

Yep. Thanks for asking!

What's your suspicion level of Nocmen right now? Why do you think he accused you directly of being scumbuddies with Xvart and then, when you protested, sheeped you almost immediately?

It has gone to neutral to slight scummy. I can't speak for what Nocmen does but I'm thinking Nocmen is attacking dram because his reaction to trekker's gambit is off. Which is related to my case about dramonic being responsible of the trekker kill.

Re: reading the game. What are your opinions on other players? What do you think of my case against dramonic?

Just as scooby said, my reaction is because dram's reaction to the entire thing (when it was first mentioned, and now) doesn't seem like a town reaction.

[Nocmen]

You "caught that", SC?
It was very well hidden too!

Reading comprehension people, work it!

Responses like this don;t help your cause.

[Nocmen]

If you were scum and someone says he has information regarding you, despite of you telling the truth or not, which at the same time you could not know, would you kill him or not?

If I were scum and someone said they had information on me, I would kill the claimed PR even though that's a sacrifice play. (People would then definitely know I was guilty.)

However, if I were town and someone said they had information on me, I would not be able to kill them even if I wanted to. But scum would also see that and, not knowing if I were third-party or second-scum group, might kill the claimed PR themselves and count on the town to take me out for them tomorrow.

See the problem with the big assumption you're making?

@MODPorochaz:

I still don't see what you're getting at; I get that flavour doesn't matter, and if the method isn't separate either then I don't think we can separate out kills by their separate groups. It's just new to me not to be able to tell which group committed which kill even if you knew there were multi-groups or scum and SK or whatever. By which I mean, separating kills by "shot", "stabbed", or whatever regardless of other flavour touches. If the same scum group factional kill can look like shot, cut to pieces, smothered with a giant feather boa, or kissed to death by Delilah the Kissing Bandit, there's no way to separate them out by different groups or kill types. And that was all I meant.

However, it's possible that scum could still be framing him, by seeing this and killing trekker. Still, I don't think that just going and making jokes about it is a town reaction to someone pretending they have information on you.

[Nocmen]

However, it's possible that scum could still be framing him, by seeing this and killing trekker. Still, I don't think that just going and making jokes about it is a town reaction to someone pretending they have information on you.

Oh, I disagree with this completely. Someone who is town knows that the comment is a lie. Scum are unlikely to call attention to themselves with this lie, so the townie may well assume that the investigative claim is a joke and respond in kind. It's scum who would likely freeze in the headlights and not respond to it directly.

Can you explain to me exactly why you're voting Dramonic right now? Is it because of his jokey reaction to the initial accusation?

Because, if he is town and knows it a lie, wouldn't you try to challenge that? Question it? How would a member of the town know its a joke as opposed to a false accusation? Wouldn't most town members counteract that, try to figure out why there is a false accusation against them? And then the scum would be the one to joke about it, to try and get over it as casually as possible.

[Nocmen]

Banshee, if you want iso's, there are a few other interesting ones.

And iso's hardly work if you want to see bunnies passivity.

I've read the whole game. Bunny is lurky and buddies Fate repeatedly. People go after (her? him? I can't tell its gender) quite frequently and one of them was Xvart, as I recall.

On the positive side for Nocmen, Xvart was pretty willing to see him hammered. Could be bussing, maybe not. But the whole recent behaviour of Nocmen around Scooby argues that at least one of them is scum.

I think Dramonic is likely the SK. If you wanna go ahead and lynch him based on that analysis it's okay, but I think he's just as likely to hit scum as town and maybe would even try to if we asked him nicely.

I am STILL WAITING for Nocmen to answer my question. I know he read it, because he quoted it in his non-answer to me.

I did answer it.

I'm willing to take out dram, scooby, and jackalope today. Not liking any of them. Maybe Bunny, but I would much much more rather take out one of those three first.

[Nocmen]

That has nothing to do with my question.

I asked, Why are you voting Dramonic right now? What was the impetus that pushed you into thinking, hey, Dramonic is scum! I'll vote for scum!

What is the reason you are voting him, Nocmen?

It's not a town reaction in my eyes.

[Nocmen]

Since dram wagon isn't happening, any chance of Jakalope wagon still?

Unvote, Vote: Jakalope

[Nocmen]

Vote: Bunny

I don't think theres a Cop AND an every-other night cop.

unfortunately, Oman doesn't leave many clues to go off of from his posts.

[Nocmen]

Fate. I'm done with your shit.

You're not making any sense at all now. I'm really beginning to doubt your masonry. Not based on meta, solely the fact that you have such a sudden turn around on bunny? Seriously, what reason do you have for that?

[Nocmen]

Fate. I'm done with your shit.

You're not making any sense at all now. I'm really beginning to doubt your masonry. Not based on meta, solely the fact that you have such a sudden turn around on bunny? Seriously, what reason do you have for that?

I have an innocent on me.

Now unless LOL MYKO GODFATEHR bullshit, Buny Myko and I are ALL tied together

In a game with a SK/two scumteams, if you really believe this shit I'll be forced to fucking lynch the shit out of you.


What sudden turn around?

I WAS POLICY LYNCHING THE BITCH. I MADE THA QUITE FUCKING CLEAR. Then she claimed, then I KNEW she was town but wasn't sorry.

Then she was saved and now we get to keep around confirmed town.

So LOL

ANY FUCKING SCUM

THAT KEEPS PUSHING THIS SHIT

So you believe it without a question?

I can't help trust anything from you anymore. This isn't your game anymore, and I'm tired of everyone blindly following you.

[Nocmen]

Fate. I'm done with your shit.

You're not making any sense at all now. I'm really beginning to doubt your masonry. Not based on meta, solely the fact that you have such a sudden turn around on bunny? Seriously, what reason do you have for that?

I have an innocent on me.

Now unless LOL MYKO GODFATEHR bullshit, Buny Myko and I are ALL tied together

In a game with a SK/two scumteams, if you really believe this shit I'll be forced to fucking lynch the shit out of you.


What sudden turn around?

I WAS POLICY LYNCHING THE BITCH. I MADE THA QUITE FUCKING CLEAR. Then she claimed, then I KNEW she was town but wasn't sorry.

Then she was saved and now we get to keep around confirmed town.

So LOL

ANY FUCKING SCUM

THAT KEEPS PUSHING THIS SHIT

So you believe it without a question?

I can't help trust anything from you anymore. This isn't your game anymore, and I'm tired of everyone blindly following you.

If Bunny lives and lives and lives and confirms everyone but herself as town, then I'd doubt her being a cop.

As it s, yeah I believe her claim.

You can't trust me that's your problem, I'm confirmed town, scum are LULZY enough to keep me alive this long, and I'm gonna kill em all one way or another.

I agree with you as town, but not your play.

[Nocmen]

Wow, Fate made a move I agree with. Let's pressure the lurker.

Unvote, Vote: DX

[Nocmen]

Willing to bet that Jack is scum.

[Nocmen]

Yup, definitely convincing me to unvote

[Nocmen]

Lol, really DX? A Fake mason claim and a fake cop claim on one of those masons?

While I don't believe all three are town, no way in hell are all three scum.

Dx/Katsuki/CSL all need to die. Then we can look into who's left of those 3.

[Nocmen]

While the Fate/Myko/Bunny conspiracy theory is totally in my line of stuff to come up with, you seem to forget that even if it's correct we have another kill going around that would probably love to put that theory to the test to either divert a lot of attention or off some confirmed townfolks.
I'll vote Banshee next time I come accross a votecount or something.

Why banshee and not one of the lurkers?

[Nocmen]

And should we believe you now, myko?

I'm just definitly confused now.

Yes Bunny, you should be investigating myko.

Let's see Ludi's reads, and go to my

Vote: TheJackalope

.

[Nocmen]

There are 2 scum left, so Bunny lying is a possibility.
You having picked Fate and Myko to kill as SK is WIFOM.
Fate was a townread in addition to having an innocent on him. You are a scumread and have an innocent. The innocent does not make you conftown.

Im aware, however I believe that when you only have 2 or 3 scum left, lynching among the two closest to being proven town is pretty shitty play.
Oh, and me shooting Fate and Myko is really not WIFOM. It's self-preservation.

So then, who would you have reads on?

you've been a bit hypocritical lately. You had a vote previously on bunny, thinking he is lying, now where do you think he stands? I'm a bit unclear with the recent comments you've made about him possibly lying or not.

[Nocmen]

VOTE: mykonian

A weak vote like that last one this late in the game? Because he was certain about the number of scum and just came off an active lurking stint? You're killing me, smalls. That's not a D5 worthy vote and you know it, myscum. You're floating an easy mislynch here.

So what's your opinion of the other lurkers?

[Nocmen]

And just to get this correct, you think Jackalope is town, because of the vote on xvart? And solely that?

[Nocmen]

After UPick I don't know why you'd want to trust Fate's instincts, Katsuki. =P

Fate can't read me for shit, that's something I already know after the 20something games I've played with him.

Secondly, I always sheep Fate when he's town.

And yet what do you think of his repeated attacks on you?

Also, this is pretty lulzy:

Scum I caught will need to wait, probably until after my vacation ends. Activity restraints etc. etc.

Meanwhile sheeping Elli is the way to go.

Unvote, VOTE: SC

p.s. Elli, you know how we're "good at mafia"? That "group" of people that we don't trust there can't be trusted here as well. Lemme know if you need further explanations.

Caught scum but not voting and then sheeping Fate? Seriously? Even if you don't have time to explain your "caught scum" you can still vote them and then provide your case later. Or, here's a shocker, leave your vote where it was presumably because it was on someone you thought was scum.
.

Where in the fuck did this "sheep fate" come from?

[Nocmen]

I've been thinking about it more.

I still don't trust myko, especially with the Fate flip.

It just makes that much more sense for scum to agree with a fake mason claim than town.

And then you add it to new vote jumps like that right above, and now I feel even more suspicion.

[Nocmen]

What about the previous cases myko? The ones that I only dropped early on you because of Fate's mason claim?

[Nocmen]

Lol @ anyone thinking I'm scum. Especially with Dram. wat.

My vote on Dram stays though.

Give me a reason I shouldn't think you're scum

[Nocmen]

Prod Dodge, been traveling all day, I'll get a real post tomorrow

[Nocmen]

I've stated my opinion with the Jak wagon for a while. I still think he is scum.

As for the second scum, I don't know. I'm definitey still suspicious of myko, I feel a bit better about Bunny, but the rest I've had an issue getting reads on because of how much lurking has been going on.

[Nocmen]

Very suspicious of Kat and chk from the end of yesterday.

Kat's using Fate WIFOM to be cleared, and chk's vote is such an obvious wagoning vote, especially when he said his initial and meta thoughts of Jak were town.

Vote: chkflip

. Nothing good in that slot all game.

[Nocmen]

Was there a rush to lynch? We were 2 weeks away from a deadline.

[Nocmen]

MoS: If we look at xvart initially, I felt that he was less scummy at first because he actually gave a reason for the Bogre wagon, as opposed to others on the wagon. When this went into Day 2, I had questions to ask of other players for their votes much more than xvart. And for the first part of D2, he barely posted anything. I forgot he was even in the game, definitely having gone under the radar. Now if we look at the xvart wagon at the end of D2, it started after Katsuki's claim. A claim which I still don't fully believe. And it was another Fate wagon, one where I started to get annoyed with him as well as Jakalope, and I dedicated the rest of D2 trying to start a full wagon on him. I had priorites of who I would want to lynch then, and it wasn't xvart.

Also, This is the full extent of the myko wagon:

myko - 7 - dram, reck, nocmen csl, jackalope, katsuki, scooby
strangercoug - 1 - mykonian
Katsuki - 1 - Fate

[Nocmen]

I'm here, midterms + Forza 4 have consumed me these past 2 days.

I'll comment more on the possible pairings MoS listed when I can go through each pair of players at a time

[Nocmen]

I still think lynching chkflip is the answer, but Mastermind of Sin might be doable as well, especially since he doesn't have the best of cases on me and admitted that I'm "easy".

Why aren't you easy? Your main scumhunting has come from the stuff with DX, and your vote jumping, espeically early with regards to elli and xvart, seems like distancing.

[Nocmen]

SC: Do you think this speculation, and that one line from MoS, makes him scummier than chk?

[Nocmen]

I believe just myko, and a flavor claim from Bunny.

[Nocmen]

Nevermind, didn't see myko.

Quoting mine from Day 1 just to have them all on same page:

Joanne Keir. Gold Digger. I've come to not gamble at the casino, just find a possible companion. Townie.

[Nocmen]

I'm just trying to determine whether that's possible.

With Bunny not getting a result last night, these are the options that make him town

1. Town RB - Unlikely, given that Reck was a RB
2. Town Jailkeeper - Again, unlikely now with the mass claim.
3. Scum RB - Possible, but doesn't explain the kill missing, unless its a SK/RB ?
4. Untargettable Scum

I really don't buy any of those.

Unvote, Vote: Bunnylover

[Nocmen]

bunny, it's going to take much more than that to try and convince me you're town.

[Nocmen]

Skimming right now over Bunny and myko's ISOS, It seems to me Katsuki or MoS is their buddy. From the Day 1 interactions between them, the Katsuki wagon D5.

Though I'm also concerned with Bunny's cop on Dramonic, but I really think that makes Dram town.

Right now, I'd say, in chance of scum to least likely:
Katsuki
MoS
chk
Dram

[Nocmen]

Nocmen, how can you seriously think I am scum at this point? I have just hunted 3 scum in a row for this town and saved your asses (with the help of a crosskill). If there is anyone who is definitely not scum, it's me.

Saved who? Kinda seems like a slip to me.

I think you are scum because of how scooby interacted with myko and Bunny
Look at D1 between myko and scooby, see that passive-aggressive trades, without voting? When myko made so many votes?
It's also a process of elimination. Kats is my most scummy, dramonic is the least. chk is slightly neutral because I've still seen practically nothing come out of that slot.

Bunny wagon: Started by MoS (that alone should clear me since I could have easily just jumped on the chkflip wagon and tipped the scales).

Note on the above: You'll recall that I pushed the Bunny lynch before I left for work and then voted when I got back from work, which is why my vote was third on the wagon.

Really? And how the hell should that clear you? It was obvious, with almost no doubt, at that point that Bunny was caught in a lie with his claims.

If Katsuki is scum, he tried to help build a counterwagon along with Bunny while myko was lynching me.

So that's your main reason why you think Katsuki is town?

If chkflip is scum, I have to discard some of my earlier reasoning that tied him to xvart. I also don't think that Bunny would have tried to fuel a wagon on chkflip as a counter to mislynching me. He was, however, on my wagon, so that's a point against him somewhat.

If Nocmen is scum, he jumped on early chances to bus his buddies earlier in the game. Also, I noticed that at the end of the day we lynched TheJak, he stated that myko was his second best scumread, but then the next day he came out going after Kat and chk and just dropped the myko suspicion altogether. myko jumped on the Nocmen wagon basically in the RVS stage (that was the quality of the reasoning), and Bunny doesn't even really mention the Nocmen wagon or give an opinion.

If Dram is scum, he avoided the bunny wagon the first time around and then voted her after she lived through the lynch. Additionally, Dram was "cleared" by bunny's first "result", which could have been an attempt to let her scumbuddy skim by.

As such, I'd rank my scumreads in this order:

Nocmen
Dramonic
chkflip
Katsuki

I'm really worried that Nocmen and I ended up with opposite lists, since that indicates to me that he's coming up with completely different conclusions based on reading the exact same info. If you take myself and Nocmen out of the equation, these are our lists:

Nocmen's list - Katsuki, chkflip, Dramonic
MoS' list - Dramonic, chkflip, Katsuki

I'd expect to have at least some similarities between reads on people who are probably town, since I'm guessing that we only have 1 scum left. That means that if Nocmen is town, at least 2 of the people on those lists are also town, and Nocmen and I do not see them the same way at all. This sort of thing isn't really evidence in and of itself, but it was significant enough to make me do a double-take when I realized it.

That said, no one should place any votes until everyone has weighed in at length. It isn't LYLO (I don't see how we could have more than 6 scum in a 20 person game and still be balanced, even with this many power roles), but we should still be careful with our votes.

Why do you see dramonic as so scummy? Do you think Bunny/myko would be so agressive with the way they attacked dram? How about comparing that to how they treated others (including your own slot) in the early game? Notice the differences? Do you think Bunny would fake innocents on both his partners?

In a 20p game, we're probably looking at a 4/1 distribution at this point. Should only be one NK tonight so we got one mislynch to work with.

As for my reads, Dram is still a giant pool of null as always. The fact that I haven't gotten scumvibes assure me slightly about him, as I've had bad vibes about Myko and SC all game. Dram is nearly confirmed town in my eyes.

I'm still reading through other players, I'll let you guys know when I finish that. Gotta go to a meeting now.

Also I'm still not sure what to think of Nocmen. I can't see scum screaming non-stop for my death, but ya never know.

Would be fine with seeing either chkflip or Nocmen dying today, though leaning towards hanging chkflip for the post I voted him for last day.

Have you seen the flips that have happened? Are you just trying to feign innocence of the setup?

[Nocmen]

Uh, what? I don't even know what you're talking about. I just saved you guys from Fate's lolimmasavetwoscumfromdeath play by nailing 3 scum since I replaced into this game.


Gotta love how you're going to pin scooby on my but have absolutely no answer for the interactions between myself and myko/Bunny since I replaced.

So all of a sudden, because scooby replaced out, I have to ignore everything that he did in this game? Once you pointed out the connection between myko and Bunny was likely, with the teams, notice how myko attacked you? Distancing from you.

Who are all of these scum that you've pinned. I see that you think you all of a sudden deserve all this credit for the Bunny wagon, when

If it was so obvious to everyone, why the hell were there 3 votes on me and 3 votes on chkflip until I came in and told you all to vote Bunny and pointed out why she was scum? You certainly weren't all over Bunny, you were voting chkflip, who you now claim is "slightly neutral". Care to explain how Katsuki jumped to the top of your list randomly?

Because the mass claim ended. When you look at the fact that the roles Bunny needed to make his claim true didn't exist, or were extremely unlikely, How does that make YOU all of a sudden a god for nailing that scum? Your defense right now is arrogance saying you're all of a sudden so pro-town.

As for Katsuki, the fact that the most I've seen from that slot is the defense of the Fate/Myko mason claim, seems like Katsuki knew myko was scum. What else has Katsuki doen that makes him town?

When did myko/Bunny attack dram? There was never even a significant wagon on dram, and Bunny "cleared" him with her night 1 action and thus would never have had a reason to attack dram for the rest of the game. Additionally, I do NOT think Bunny would fake innocents on both her partners. She only claimed two results: dram innocent, fate innocent (which she later recanted and said she was lying about). Where exactly did you conclude that Bunny faked innocents on both her partners?

The connections with the targets Bunny had. I don't see that direct of a connection to dram. You don't pleade for dram's innocence so much in the game, and then make another scum buddy another target as well, especially when it seems the scum are in groups of 3).

What point are you trying to make here?

I'm looking at the fact that Katsuki is blatanty not following the game, and ensuring that he won't use a defense to the extend of "I can't be scum because I wouldnt say there is a 4/1 setup".

[Nocmen]

1. So suggesting a mass claim, and having a case on 3 people, who flipped scum, makes you town? And how many people had been pushing cases on those 3 during this game? This self-entitled bullshit that you think makes yours so much more superior is shit logic.
2. Tell me why Dram is more scummy than say, the other 2 players, who have practically done nothing as well this entire game? Not joining wagons is more scummy than joining wagons, and not contributing at all?
3. How the hell can a 4/1 setup be a logical conclusion when theres 3/2 flipped right now?

[Nocmen]

Well, 4/1 makes sense now. I was still in the mindset that you were thinking 4 scum, 1SK as the anti-town roles, from previous references of 4/1 in the game.

[Nocmen]

Agreed, chk, while the slot is meh at best, is not the lynch. Kats/MoS is the lynch for today. Still not sure which, MoS definitely seemed scummy at the start of the day, but now I'm just beginning to think we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Nocmen]

Really chk? That's it?

[Nocmen]

I honestly had no idea how to play at the end. I played so sloppy over the whole game, I was just kind of stalling to hope that something good would come up. I knew dram was town, and MoS's logic just got stronger and stronger. I would have much difficulty pulling the lynch off on kats, and once chk died, I knew I was next.

[Nocmen]

Also, what the hell did I do that warranted that first D1 wagon? Still confused on that, though it didn't really hurt my team.

I think my best play was the reasoning on why I wanted to kill Reck/SC. Definitely ended well?

[Nocmen]

Yea, I was torn between you and Kats, but Kats had a bit of the flavor analysis leaning towards making me feel better about, and your style just raised a lot of flags to me, while at the same time, a lynch just didn't seem like it would happen on you.