Open 326: Pick Your Poison (Ende des Speils!)

[Maruchan]

Why so she is, didn't notice that under her avatar.

Great, I'm thinking two girls are probably scum. I'm glad this isn't really life or I'd never have gotten married...

lol.

[Maruchan]

I love how you guys picked up the gender stuff and no comments on anything else...

So, I finally caught up... my head hurts from all of the emotions flowing through pages 12-16ish.

I caught Lane's pr comment too and I agree that it is likely anti-town mistake, not scummy.

@Amrun- when you are playing, do you ever catch things and say, oh that seems PRish, regardless of your alignment. Also I can think of a few other reasons for town to PR hunt.

I find it interesting that two of the people voting me have a small amount of content. (I'm not up on V-LA's so if either trow or hopp is on V-LA I Rescind the following:)

Hoppster comes in, engages in an argument with NS and leaves... Trow...trow has two posts... Jon had two and Kondi never posted... 4 posts for one slot on page 21 of the game... serial lurking (not to be confused with lurking) is definately a scum-tell.

I would be satisfied seeing Maruchan hang the most, but Glowball is number two on my list of scumspects followed closely by trow. I don't see Maruchan getting rope today so I will lay down my vote elsewhere. If anyone wants to join me in swinging back to Maru, and thinks we can do it by the deadline, lets go!

otherwise...

Vote: Glowball

(side note: It felt really good to type out that vote... it's good to be back.

When I am a doc I PR hunt

I mean

cough

[Maruchan]

Maruchan and thunderwielder are going after Glowball.

Maruchan....has been on defense all game. Defense=scum.

These seem rather contradictory. Especially since you think Glowball is scum, I would make that qualify as going after=scumhunting.

[Xalxe]

Votecount 1.11: The "You People Get Active While I'm Asleep" Votecount

glowball (5): thunderwielder, Supreme Overlord, Auckmid, saulres, mothrax

mothrax (4): RoboThor, Hoppster, Maruchan, MrTrow
Maruchan (2): lane0168, glowball
lane0168 (1): Amrun

Not Voting (0)

:

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: September 2nd ((expired on 2011-09-02 14:58:38))

Auckmid is painfully LA until Sat.

Deadline is currently 3 days away.

[mothrax]

Let me qualify that. I'm still trying to get back in the habit of saying exactly what it is I mean.

While you have made some attacks on glowball, unless I missed something those seem to be driven by a need to protect yourself. I would not be at all suprised if this was hard distancing. The attacks you have made have been more personal than anything else which is a natural defense mechanism. When I get home this evening I will elaborate with evidence.

@Amrun: I didn't say I was done posting I said I was done catching up, meaning I have read the thread in it's entirety. If by make more effort you mean elaborate cases, well, a1 that's not what I am known for, and b2 hold your horses, because I planed on going more in-depth tonight.

[thunderwielder]

Just a quick comment I've felt like making on the whole "Maruchan playing to win" topic.

I am playing to win. Playing To Save My Ass, is NOT the same as playing to win.

I can die, and still win, as long as my faction does. So I feel that as long as my life is spent productively finding scum, rather than in town v town shitstorms, that I am playing to win.

I think this quote might disprove your Maruchan theory, Mothrax. Well, actually, you tell me. I personally can read it both ways. Does it support it or fight against the Maruchan defending=scum? I'm still interested in the Maruchan cases, because of his 'lurking to find town tells' ploy, but other than that, I agree with Amrun (I'm not seeing too much of Maruchan's scumminess either). You should totally keep your vote on Glowball.

Also, Moth

Maruchan and thunderwielder are going after Glowball.

I think you might be confusing Maruchan with Supreme Overlord. He's the one who's had my back with the Glowball case, and we both are having very similar responses to things, whereas Maruchan's vote is still on you.

I comented on what I saw fit to comment on.

Okay, fair, but this sort of rubs me the wrong way. There was A LOT more that you could have commented on, but instead you've relieved yourself of responsibility by calling it "shite" and therefore not needed to comment on seemingly a heck of a lot of the game. Seems like a little bit of a cop-out to me. It also seems to be following in the same vein as your predecessor with his "the last fifteen pages have been elephants and mashed potatoes", which (although quite a hilarious metaphore) does nothing to advance us through this game. THAT's why he was under pressure, fyi, because of his active non-contributing--not necessarily because he didn't post in the thread a lot.

Amrun, (I'm taking this from your comments) does this mean, between Glow and Mothrax, that you'd prefer to vote Mothrax?

If that is the case, we'll have a 5/5 tie for leading wagon. Personally, I think they are both quite scummy, so I think now the question becomes who will be more valuable in Day two. Right? We have to think about the long haul, and what will help us catch either the final scumbuddy, or other scum. What will Glowball produce during day two? What will Mothrax contribute during day two? If both of them are scum (or if both of them turn out to be town), what's the best possible scenario for getting information? Mothrax's reads failed a little to live up to my expectations, but he DID just replace in and had to catch up on a lot quickly. Glowball is adamant about not giving her reads, since she says that we won't trust them anyway regardless of her flip. I'm just thinking aloud here, and perhaps my bias towards Glowball (and her behaviour towards me in particular) is swaying my hand, but in this case, I would rather keep Mothrax around, considering he is contributing more. Maybe this comes down to policy lynching, I don't know. I guess that's what I am suggesting and leaning towards (if I'm interpreting 'policy lynching' correctly). But I would rather go into day two with a scum who's trying to look town rather than a scum who's trying not to give any reads but is obstinately sticking to one frame of mind and refusing to delve into others. Of course, that could be useful, since it might clear Saul and Maruchan if Glowball flips scum, but then again she's already fessed up to bussing hardcore early in the game, so I can see Saul's case on a Glowball/Maruchan team, but I'm not sure I buy it.
Also, now that Mothrax is voting for Glowball, I suspect that Glowball will throw her vote on Mothrax. It only makes sense to do so. Then again, I don't understand Glowball at all, so who knows what'll happen.

Anyway, thoughts on what I've just written? We only have three days, which, yes is a lot of time, but not when only three or four people are active everyday.

[thunderwielder]

Should have hit preview.

Also, Moth

Maruchan and thunderwielder are going after Glowball.

I think you might be confusing Maruchan with Supreme Overlord. He's the one who's had my back with the Glowball case, and we both are having very similar responses to things, whereas Maruchan's vote is still on you.

So you did mean Maruchan? Sorry, I misinterpreted things.

[saulres]

Hoppster comes in, engages in an argument with NS and leaves

Where is Hoppster anyway? He's active in other threads and is coming close to three days not here.

@Mod: Prod Hoppster?

[RoboThor]

FWIW I am reading and forming reads right now... sorry, trying to wade through this "caring v not caring shitefest" right now. SRSLY...

Also RE Robo 502: Aren't you the one who asked for proof that NS lurked as town, or was that Thor?

We are the same person, same slot, it doesn't matter who posted the words, the fact is they apply.

You misread my meaning there. We all know its his meta to lurk and that its normal behavior. But its still scummy behavior, as many times as he does it. I was asking for the cases and reads that were not in that first post.

The reads should have been your priority, not defending yourself. And I agree wholeheartedly with Amrun with the fact you put much more effort into the defense than the reads. Yes it was pretty crazy, but it had a lot of information flowing out of it.

I think I am going to join Thor in not signing my posts.

[Hoppster]

Sorry, back from unexpected and sudden V/LA.

Where is Hoppster anyway? He's active in other threads

Not true...


Catching up now.

[Xalxe]

Hoppster comes in, engages in an argument with NS and leaves

Where is Hoppster anyway? He's active in other threads and is coming close to three days not here.

@Mod: Prod Hoppster?

Sure, let me just--

Sorry, back from unexpected and sudden V/LA.

Where is Hoppster anyway? He's active in other threads

Not true...


Catching up now.

Damn, I'm good.

In other news:

DEADLINE IS THREE DAYS AWAY. THERE WILL BE NO EXTENSIONS.

[glowball]

@Thunder... why would I vogte for Mothrax just because he's the only other wagon? I am not going for an easy lynch, I am going for the correct lynch.

That seems to be the problem with most of you it's like follow the leader or let's just get this over with. Yeah we have a deadline, but why push a wagon on one person when you find someone else scummier? You are cheating yourself out of a correct lynch. I want Maruchan lynched, yeah Saulres would be okay but I am not just switching my vote to Mothrax because he's voting me.

[thunderwielder]

Because we DO have a deadline and we need to lynch somebody. A No Lynch is not an acceptable option. It just gives the scum a free kill.
If you want Maruchan lynched, make a stronger case and get everyone over to your side. This is where your refusal to participate in discussion has led you. You've given your case, but you have failed to listen to people's responses to it, and now that wagon is all but disbanded. Why is Mothrax an incorrect lynch? This is where a stance on Nobody Special would have been helpful, instead of not giving your reads earlier in the game. I was more prepared to listen to you then than I am now, but I would still like your opinion, because we CAN use it later on.

[thunderwielder]

EBWODP

And, yeah, if you were town, it would make sense to throw your vote on Mothrax, because you would know you were town and you would be trying to have town NOT lynch a townie (aka you in this particular scenario).

[glowball]

I don't know whether Mothrax is town or scum. So NO I am not throwing my vote on him so the town can lynch him instead of me. My flip will show a lot and I am fine with that. Mothrax may be scum but he may be town, but don't put it on me like my vote is gospel or something. If you guys lynch incorrectly it's because of every vote on that wagon. I am not afraid of being lynched because I think it will help you guys, I think me being here longer helps too but it's up to you. No one has even made a case against me that I find remotely good so I don't even know how my wagon got this far, but I kind of want to be lynched because you guys deserve it. You deserve to mislynch if all you have against me is my playstyle which you've basically admittedly decided to policy lynch me for.

[saulres]

EBWODP

And, yeah, if you were town, it would make sense to throw your vote on Mothrax, because you would know you were town and you would be trying to have town NOT lynch a townie (aka you in this particular scenario).

Wait -- can you explain this? Not because I don't want to see glowball lynched (I do) but because your logic doesn't seem to prove anything. Even if she moves her vote, that doesn't lynch mothrax.

It seems to me if you want mothrax lynched,

you

should move your vote.

[thunderwielder]

@Saul, yeah, I guess I should explain that a bit better.

I guess this outlook comes from me seeing both of them as scummy. Now

IF Glowball were town

(I'll strike that and put myself in that position, since that's where I'm thinking from). if I was in Glowball's position and I was a townie (or at least pretending to be one), I would want to move my vote to the other wagon since I KNOW I'm a townie and I wouldn't want to sit idly by while the town mislynched me. Therefore it makes sense to try and lynch someone who's alignment that I'm unsure of, rather than my own townie alignment. That's where I was coming from with the statement you quoted. (Have I explained myself better, Saul?)
Instead, she's been sticking to her guns and keeping with the two reads she's had all game.
I'd understand that if she found Mothrax to be town, I would definitely understand her vote placement. But she hasn't said one way or the other, nor has she bothered to find out any other information that might be able to clarify a read of this leading wagon for her.
I guess I would be trying harder to save my own skin and make sure there is a better lynch than a definite mislynch (from a townie Glowball's perspective).

I don't want Mothrax lynched over Glowball, which is why my vote is on her and has continued to be on her since a heck of a long time ago.

But I guess I see your argument, Saul, about if she moved her vote it could be for scum or town. Both are in the vein of self-preservation. I just hoped it would be obvious which type of self-preservation was being implemented, which could further aid the case that she's scum OR that perhaps Mothrax was a better lynching candidate. I'm just trying to figure out which of the two lynches would best benefit the town. Obviously I think a Glowball lynch would, but I'd like to be able to convince people of that. It's no good having a read if you can't convince people about it, or don't try to convince everyone of it. That's my thinking.

[Hoppster]

I'm finding it unreasonably difficult to get into this game. I blame everybody but myself. -.-

/whine

glowball (5): thunderwielder, Supreme Overlord, Auckmid, saulres, mothrax

mothrax (4): RoboThor, Hoppster

[ohai!]

, Maruchan, MrTrow.

Okay.

Of these two wagons, I am

much

more willing to lend my support to the mothrax wagon.


In an attempt to do as little work as possible in this catchup post, I decided to go through mothrax's ISO, and it's convinced me further that the slot is confscum.

Broken down the gist of my argument into two sections (A and B).

1. In his very first post, he defends his predecessor with
   lol-playstyle
   :

   Also, lynching NS for lurking/active lurking is like lynching a kitten for being cute.

   
   
   However, he then later refuses to accept the playstyle defence of glowball:

   RE my vote. Glowball is scummy. I have never played with glowball plus I think meta is shite, so I see no reason to think [that she is not scum]

   
   
   He also suggests that self-meta is a scum-tell, despite being guilty of doing so with his own slot:

   Maru is cementing himself further into my scumlist at this point... He seems to constantly self-meta, which I see as a scum tell (i.e post 214 "check my meta" and I feel like he has done that before though I didn't write the post number down.) He also seems to resort to a lot of flippant semi-personal attacks as a defence, which is scummy.

===================================================================
2. Mothrax puts an argument for Maruchan-scum:

   I always play with the mindset that Town don't care if they live or die, as long as they are catching scum. Towns goal is to catch scum... that automatically puts them on the offense, via cases, etc... scum on the other hand need to live. they cannot win without outliving the town, and are automatically at a great numerical disadvantage, thus they have to fight harder to stay alive.
   
   and for someone who preached about not caring about votes early on, Maruchan seemed to take great offense to getting pressured.

   
   
   However, using the inverse of this argument, it's
   extremely
   easy to make an argument for glowball-town which it looks like mothrax has selectively overlooked in pushing a counter-wagon.
   
   glowball has numerous times refused to give town-reads or a case despite knowing it would aggrieve other players and obviously thus increase the odds of her being lynched.
   
   glowball even flat-out asks me to lynch her:

   Oh I see what you mean about those two quotes rather contradictory in your eyes okay you should lynch me for that.

tl;dr

1. mothrax defends own slot with self-meta but attacks others for doing so.
   
2. mothrax makes an argument for Maruchan-scum, overlooking the logical continuation of glowball-town

Still struggling to read glowball.

.__.

Leaning-town slightly, as this strikes me as an emotional-town-OMGUS.

[MrTrow]

Mr. Trow, what do you think of everyone who has votes on them? A short 3 sentence response to each, and whether you think the votes are justified and/or are right would be greatly appreciated.

Sorry, catching up turned out to be harder than expected (currently working on it(skimmed all full read in progress)).
In the skim i encountered very little to not hammer any of the current top 3 wagons over a deadline-no-lynch.
(consider this post a 'don`t replace me yet': i`m on it)

[Amrun]

VOTE: mothrax

Yay counterwagons.

[lane0168]

VOTE: MARUCHAN

Doesn't like it if people dont participate in RVS, and doesn't like it when people do participate, or start, RQS. Whether or not someone wants to spew questions, the conversation will start eventually. Probably in the wrong direction.

This was genuine contradiction. So it deserved my RVS

WOOT WOOT THERE'S NUMBER 2!

and if explanation is needed, i feel the excitement for another vote this early (know probability states he wont get lynched) is starting to look a little bit suspicious. why, maruchan, do you feel the need to belittle 2 votes this atimately? if thats the word. sound it out, i mean atimately. i think. i mean chill,, unless you are trying to act like they are nothing when they actually are

Fixed quote tags – Mod

Unless you're implying one of us is bussing, in which case, all you're talk about how my gameplay strategy seems out-of-place on Page 4, implies you think it would be OK in later pages. But you think a full-on bus is viable on Page 4?

again with the belittling? at this point you are belittling the possiblilty of bussing so early in the game.

right about now, i am going to buddy with maruchan when he says keep the votes coming on him. I FEEL he is playing the "trying not to care to much because if i do i'll be caught as mafia because i am mafia" card. so... i guess my RVS votes stayin steady

Now we really need to vote for maruchan. he continued his go ahead and vote me type defense like 5 pages ago. that wasn't real awesome in my eyes. maybe its the way he plays, i guess i'll learn when he flips. BUT NOW! this flimsy ass strategy of purposely not posting and waiting to see who would bring it up just to call them town? I think that is a huge load of crap. I think maruchan is fake. all he was trying to do is try and make himself look town. he wasnt really trying to see who else was town, he already knows whos town. he was legitamately only trying to appear town by giving someone else madd town points.

alright that is some of what i've said about maruchan. now i'll iso maru and add to it.

[lane0168]

it seems odd amrun hasn't switched her vote back to me yet

[lane0168]

if glowball suspects lane then its not much of a story about me defending glowball. i dont think two scum would so closely link up lol. and as far as defending? not defending. i do think glowball is town. saying why she is town would be defending her. trying to move on from the fact that glowball isnt giving reads is entirely different. the pressure went on for fucking pages. what dont you see about this?

thats not defense tyvw. amrun is full of bs. what is your case on me even? gut read again? like a glowball gut town read? you crazy.

response to supreme overlord forthcoming, and i'm assuming that i can quote myself from the game to make my case using my own words, correct supreme overlord?

P.S. - I never said it was defense. That was someone else. Stop misrepping. Also, calling me crazy is not enough to discredit me. Saying my case is gut is not enough either, since everyone reading the thread knows it is not gut. I have detailed and talked about several things you've done that I have found scummy. That's how the game works.

THUNDERWIELDER, GLOWBALL, PUT ASIDE YOUR DIFFERENCES AND VOTE FOR LANE PLLLZZZ

the defense was directed at whoever else the rest of the paragraph was directed at. so you stop misrepping. i didnt say you said it was defense. the things you've talked about me being scum is not a very good case. that much is evident. you are tunnel visioned and i am sorry. what were they? my anti town mistake, as others have stated. oh lols my distraction with my first two posts of the game that ruined the conversation that was already over. shoot i cant remember what else there was. can you remind me? obviously you never even read my responses or do not understand them because if you did you'd realize why your case is false.

[Amrun]

I always read your responses, but you confuse "response" with "valid defense."

[thunderwielder]

if glowball suspects lane then its not much of a story about me defending glowball. i dont think two scum would so closely link up lol. and as far as defending? not defending. i do think glowball is town. saying why she is town would be defending her. trying to move on from the fact that glowball isnt giving reads is entirely different. the pressure went on for fucking pages. what dont you see about this?

thats not defense tyvw. amrun is full of bs. what is your case on me even? gut read again? like a glowball gut town read? you crazy.

response to supreme overlord forthcoming, and i'm assuming that i can quote myself from the game to make my case using my own words, correct supreme overlord?

P.S. - I never said it was defense. That was someone else. Stop misrepping. Also, calling me crazy is not enough to discredit me. Saying my case is gut is not enough either, since everyone reading the thread knows it is not gut. I have detailed and talked about several things you've done that I have found scummy. That's how the game works.

THUNDERWIELDER, GLOWBALL, PUT ASIDE YOUR DIFFERENCES AND VOTE FOR LANE PLLLZZZ

the defense was directed at whoever else the rest of the paragraph was directed at. so you stop misrepping. i didnt say you said it was defense. the things you've talked about me being scum is not a very good case. that much is evident. you are tunnel visioned and i am sorry. what were they? my anti town mistake, as others have stated. oh lols my distraction with my first two posts of the game that ruined the conversation that was already over. shoot i cant remember what else there was. can you remind me? obviously you never even read my responses or do not understand them because if you did you'd realize why your case is false.

Lane, every time you do something that's mildly productive, you come out again with one of these posts filled with sarcasm and defensiveness that makes you seem scummy to me. You should probably stop doing that.

I would vote lane over mothrax (but Glow over Lane). I still think we should give him a bit more time to respond. Maybe he'll pop up with a super duper townie read. I would just hate lynching someone who might have valuable things to say.