Open 329: Mayo Clinic D3: Town WINS!

[glowball]

We could all pitch a fit about GreyICE. GreyICE is just that annoying all of the time. Seriously, it's not a scumtell. I mean he could be scum, but he does the same annoyingly entitled arrogant thing as town. He's just very strong willed and outspoken in these games. That is a good thing and a bad thing, hell without him activity could have stalled a lot.

[whispersilk]

Who is raging at you besides GreyICE?

omg, what does it all mean?

Could grey be scum? Maybe, maybe not. But if he is town, then he should follow the plan to a town win.

Wouldn't it be hilarious if by pure chance, I've arranged it so that you have a goon trying to protect a mafia doc, and the mafia doc gets hit by a vig?

One vig just outed 2 scum in one night.

I think anyone that doesn't want to follow the plan of win is scared, and the only ones who have any reason to be scared are the scum.

[glowball]

No, I'm scared and I know I am not scum. I just hate these plans. I hated the mass claim. I think this whole thing is going to suck because like I said too many chiefs not enough indians. everything thinks they know what is best and some people won't agree. THIS IS WHY WHEN THE TOWNSPEOPLE ARE DIVIDED WE DO NOT ORCHESTRATE PLANS, we just play normally and let a majority rule in the lynchings. We should have never mass claimed with this particular group of players, let's hope everyone gets on board with something.

[whispersilk]

Why did we all claim in the first place? Was there an original plan to follow or something?

[izakthegoomba]

Note to self: play simpler setup next time.

I'm still backing whisper's plan. I don't think any of the supposed flaws are really valid, as no other plan offers us a better town-death-to-outed-scum rate.

If there is a better idea, I am more than happy to listen.

PEdit: @whisper, lrn2read

[Maruchan]

No, I'm scared and I know I am not scum. I just hate these plans. I hated the mass claim. I think this whole thing is going to suck because like I said too many chiefs not enough indians. everything thinks they know what is best and some people won't agree. THIS IS WHY WHEN THE TOWNSPEOPLE ARE DIVIDED WE DO NOT ORCHESTRATE PLANS, we just play normally and let a majority rule in the lynchings. We should have never mass claimed with this particular group of players, let's hope everyone gets on board with something.

IM AN INDIAN!!!

Tell me what to do chief and it'll happen

[neil1113]

Still. Not. Dead. :/

And oh hell no. If I flip SK, Grey dies. Don't let Grey whimper his way out. He's scum, and if you've got a head on your shoulder, you know this. Grey's flip would indefinitely be the most revealing in my opinion, and I'm not even town. Grey, you made the bet, you keep it. Let the vigs vig you, don't back out now. You were so confident that I'm scum, I DARE you to put your ass on the line. I'll love every minute that I see it vigged.

[Maruchan]

^^^^^^^

[whispersilk]

Hey, I wouldn't argue that one of the vigs shouldn't randomly choose to vig him if they feel that is best.

[BBmolla]

Why did we all claim in the first place? Was there an original plan to follow or something?

I posted the first plan forever ago but it was flawed.

I'm confused as to what we are arguing about.

[whispersilk]

grey doesn't like my plan even though he can't come up with a legit reason why it's not pretty damn good. I think the rest of those that have read it would be ok with following it, but I guess everyone should state what they think is best.

[whispersilk]

Plan to follow if neil is the SK:

Fundamentals of the plan:

• The main aim of the plan is for the vigs to find the two goons by using their kills to create a group of confirmed doctors. At this point in the plan it makes no difference if this group of confirmed doctors includes the scum doc or not. The scum doc will be taken care of later on in the game.
  
  
• It is crucial that the vigs stay alive for as long as possible. They will each be protected by one confirmed doctor every night.
  
  
• The first problem that scum will face is this: they cannot kill anyone in the renaming doc pool without outing one of their own. This means that all docs in the doc pool will survive unless one is hit by a vig. If one or two town docs are hit by the vigs over one or two nights, then the doctors that were supposed to be protecting them will become
  confirmed scum
  and should be auto lynched the next day. If two scum are found in one night, then one gets lynched during the next day, and the following night the other is thrown from the doc pool, left unprotected and BOTH vigs target him to ensure the kill is not thwarted by the scum doctor.
  
  
• The second problem scum will face is this: the scum doctor is going to be forced to protect the person they are told to protect because the vigs will be targeting randomly. Scum cannot chance protecting one of their own because if their "plan doc" dies, they will have been caught. Scum cannot know who is being targeted.
  
  
• The third problem scum will face is this: even if the scum doc (once a confirmed doc) is put on vig protect duty, the scum cannot take out that vig without outing the scum doc in the process. This means theoretically that the scum doc could then not choose to protect the vig at all, but choose to protect one of their goons (if still alive) to create a confirmed doc goon, however there is a back up for this scenario.
  
  
• In my original plan, I had said that the vigs should pick randomly from the doc pool, and I still believe this to be the best course. However, there is nothing to say that the scum doc will not end up protecting one of the vigs, and will take the chance to not protect the vig, but protect one of the goons instead. So, I have come up with an altered vig plan that relies on the vigs turning truly random and trusting me completely.
  
  
• Night 1: I will protect vig #2 and glowball will protect vig #1.
  
  
• On night 1, Vig #1 will pick a target from docs #1-4, and vig #2 will pick either doc 5,6, or 7 OR THE OTHER VIG. This is where the trust part comes in. BB and Quoaroth must believe that I am town. I've picked glow because I think she is town too, but I no one can be sure. Therefore, on the off chance she is the scum doc, there must be a chance that her vig will be targetted and therefore she will not take the chance of protecting anyone else. It is crucial that neither of the vigs speculate or state who they might be targeting, and it is crucial that both vigs agree to follow this to the letter. I know this sounds crazy... targeting your fellow vig. But it the one way to ensure that if the scum doc is trying to be clever, that they are caught in the process. This will be the smartest way to find the scum doc. If glowball is the scum doc, she will have no choice but to protect her vig or take the chance that vig #2 decides to target him. If she is the scum doc, and she does take the chance of protecting one of the goons, and vig #2 decides to target vig #1, then we will will lose a vig, but we will have caught the scum that is going to be hardest to catch. Good trade, imo. Vigs have to be prepared to kill each other to find the scum doc. If glow is a goon, then scum won't target her vig, because they will out her as scum by doing so.
  
  
• As scum have no choice but to kill one of the docs protecting the vigs, and it will mean that either myself or glowball will die tonight. They cannot kill anyone else without revealing themselves.
  
  
• When day 2 starts there will have been one of these possible outcomes:
  
  1) Scum have killed either whispersilk or glow and both of the vigs targets survived. Both vig targets survived.
  2) Scum have killed either whispersilk or glow and one of the vigs has killed either a town doc or a goon. The other vigs target survived.
  3) Scum have killed either whispersilk or glow and both of the vigs has killed either a town doc or a goon.
  4) Scum have killed either whispersilk or glow and one of the vigs has killed the other vig. The dead vigs target was killed or survived.
  
  
  If result #1:
  
  
  The docs that were protecting the two vig targets are now confirmed docs and will each protect a vig on night 2. Either myself or glow (depending on who was night killed), will be thrown into the doc pool. The doc pool remains the same as night 1 with that exception. Night 2 proceeds as night 1 with the vig picking targets from their respective pool, but now ALSO with the added choice of targeting each other.
  
  Yes, the vigs must randomly choose to target either someone from the doc pool (with the same vig#1 choosing from docs #1-4 etc, or they can choose to target the other vig. This will ensure that if the scum doc ends up protecting the vig, that they actually do what they are told. If a vig targets the other vig, and they die, then the doc is the scum doc 100% guaranteed.
  
  It is vital that the vigs not be scared about targeting each other because it is crucial that those confirmed docs are tested randomly.
  
  
  If result #2:
  
  
  The doc that protected the vig target that survived becomes confirmed doc and replaces the dead doc from vig watch. The doc that was supposed to be protecting the player that the other vig killed becomes confirmed scum and is lynched that day. He will likely be a goon.
  
  Night 2 proceeds as night 1 with the vig picking targets from their respective pool, but now ALSO with the added choice of targeting each other.
  
  
  If result #3:
  
  
  This would be the perfect result. Both docs that were supposed to be protecting the dead vig targets now become confirmed scum. Scum #1 is lynched that day, and scum #2 is targeted by BOTH vigs that night. Vigs are protected by their confirmed docs. All other docs protect each other on the train as normal. Plan then goes as follows: Day 3 - Vigs decide who to lynch and the rest sheep them without question. Either this results in a town death, or the scum doc is found and it's game over. If town is lynched on day 3, then night 4 proceeds with vigs still protected by confirmed docs, except now the doc train is broken and ALL DOCS protect both the vigs. This leaves the scum doc exposed, and the vigs just start picking off two docs at a time until they hit the scum doc. The possible targets need to include the two docs on vig protect duty.
  
  Should things go this way, the scum doc can kill another doc, but that's fine because it just makes endgame happen sooner. If the scum will be unable to kill the vig because they will be double protected at the very least. Night continue until either the scum doc is lynched during the day, or he is killed at night.
  
  Eventually this scenario will happen because as soon as both goons are found, then things proceeds immediately to this plan.
  
  
  If result #4:
  
  
  The doc that failed his vig protect duty is confirmed scum and is lynched the that day. The remaining vig is then protected by
  three
  docs on night 2 and he starts randomly targets someone from the remaining doc pool. The remaining doc pool protect each other. This continues until the 2nd scum is found, then the plan switches to all docs protecting the vig, and the vig taking them out one at a time, and lynching during the day.
  
  If the dead vig targeted someone and they died, then obv that docs protection is confirmed scum and is lynched.
  
  Basically, once both goons are found, the all docs protect the vigs, and the vigs starts picking them off one by one. The scum doc will be found by elimination or by good scum hunting during the day.
  
  Proposed:
  
  1) BBMolla protected by glowball
  2) Quoaroth protected by Whispersilk
  
  
  Doctors
  
  
  1)Izak - protected by Quilford
  2)PiggyGal - protected by Izak
  3)VitaminR - protected by PiggyGal
  4)Maruchan - protected by VitaminR
  
  5)Thomith - protected by Maruchan
  6)greyice - protected by Thomith
  7)Quilford - protected by greyice

Criticism, comments and suggestions welcome.

Again it is crucial that the vigs not be scared to target each other randomly.

Just everyone keep this in mind: if this plan is not followed, then night 1 could result in 3 town deaths and no scum found. Night 2 can result in the same, and it will be a scum win all round.

I don't believe that all three scum are suspected at the moment. I think most of the top suspects of the moment are just scummy looking town. We can't afford to start killing just anyone. It needs to be methodical, otherwise scum will get the upper hand.

In case anyone missed it, this is the plan I drew up which ensures we root out the scum with minimal town losses and ensuring the vigs remain alive for as long as possible.

If you could all read it and comment or ask anything, and state if you would be happy to go ahead with it.

I'm still working on an alternate plan just in case neil is not the SK.

[izakthegoomba]

@whisper yeah, Grey needs to die and I would totally sympathise with any vig shooting him, but does that not stop it being random?

[BBmolla]

I just realized part of my problem with the plan.

If the vig and mafia target same person it goes through regardless of being docced.

I think this is why I wanted vigs to target the same person. Just realized it.

[neil1113]

Both vigs target Grey. Make everyone happy. <3

[whispersilk]

Do you really think the mafia are going to try and guess who the two of you are targeting when the plan calls for you to be completely random, and they have a guaranteed kill in the two docs who are on vig duty?

I don't understand why would want both vigs to target the same person? What is that going to achieve?

[whispersilk]

@whisper yeah, Grey needs to die and I would totally sympathise with any vig shooting him, but does that not stop it being random?

I think he should be targeted either tonight, or tomorrow night, and it the vig doing it should be the one who is assigned that part of the doc pool, but that vig should not tell us which night he will do it.

[whispersilk]

Does everyone understand that the point of the plan is to find the goons not by killing them necessarily, but by confirming docs, and whoever is left is scum. Should they take the scum out it he process, then great. The end will come sooner, but it's not of huge importance if they miss the goons, because they can't hide past night 3.

[izakthegoomba]

So, just to clarify, the vigs don't have to use an RNG or anything, they just pick a target from their pool and let the WIFOM do it's work.

I can go for that.

[whispersilk]

Yes, they randomly pick two targets, and if those targets survive, the docs protecting them during the night are confirmed docs and leave the pool.

[whispersilk]

Reducing the pool by 1. Next day, scummiest doc in the pool is lynched, and night 2 pool is reduced to 5. If vigs don't hit scum for a second night, then two more docs are taken from the pool. Leaving 3. All the docs out of the pool then protect the vigs, and day 3 one of the remaining 3 docs in the pool is lynched. If that lynchee is town, then both remaining docs in the pool are confirmed scum. If they lynch a scum, the one remaining doc is scum, the other is town, and I guess the vigs can either kill both, or choose the scummiest and even then, if they pick wrong, the last scum can be lynched day 4. All that remains is for all the confirmed docs to remain protecting the vigs and not themselves, and the then the vigs start shooting, scummiest first. They will hit the scum doc.

[neil1113]

Reducing the pool by 1. Next day, scummiest doc in the pool is lynched, and night 2 pool is reduced to 5. If vigs don't hit scum for a second night, then two more docs are taken from the pool. Leaving 3. All the docs out of the pool then protect the vigs, and day 3 one of the remaining 3 docs in the pool is lynched. If that lynchee is town, then both remaining docs in the pool are confirmed scum. If they lynch a scum, the one remaining doc is scum, the other is town, and I guess the vigs can either kill both, or choose the scummiest and even then, if they pick wrong, the last scum can be lynched day 4. All that remains is for all the confirmed docs to remain protecting the vigs and not themselves, and the then the vigs start shooting, scummiest first. They will hit the scum doc.

I hate to reign on your parade, but what happens if Night 1, the Scum Doc decides to protect where their partner was forced to pretend to be a Doc, thus "proving" a Goon is a Doc?

[whispersilk]

Good point, but considering I am a doc, and I'm fairly sure that glowball is town, means the scum doc is somewhere in the pool.

The vigs must not target the scummiest people. They must target completely randomly. The scum doc would have to be very very very lucky to happen to choose to protect the right person on the right night for that to be a possibility.

This entire plan is all about the randomness, and the fact the scum do not know who is going to be targeted. That is why limiting the vig bait to two or three people is silly. Scum will take full advantage of it, and we will lose townies with all the mis-viggings.

[izakthegoomba]

I don't mean to be a pain in the arse, I really don't, but IS IT TRULY RANDOM, OR ISN'T IT?

[whispersilk]

What?