Open 326: Pick Your Poison (Ende des Speils!)

[Auckmid]

Time for me to do the big read through. I have much more time on my hands then before, so I'm going to try and post every day

[mothrax]

@saulres other than one game that I just now posted in (stating that i was at work btw) where have I been active on site (while this game was open)

P.s. At work, will have content coming in either late tonight or early in the morning, depending on how much work wipes me out.

[saulres]

My bad, mea cupla. I saw the posts on Sep 02 and didn't realize we were so far into September already.

[lane0168]

A. holy fuck. B. I'm sorry.

alright, did a lot of thinking today, not even reading the thread, only what i could refresh on my phone, which brought up a lot of thoughts. just thinking about things that i remember. here is my list i came up with

first @saulres, what you thought was lurking wasnt. does that negate what you found? cause really that was just the reason for you to investigate. not really what you found in mothrax's iso

town
saulres- top town read. asks pertinent questions. he is fairly new to the game and scum would be more careful than to ask if something is scummy.
Hoppster- a lot of the same things as with saulres. Only with a couple things missing. One of which I got in trouble for talking about.
amrun- wish she was scum, but i see a lot of similarities in her play and mine. she wouldnt see the glowball wagon. good call. and although she switched her votes a few times, she never let go of thinking that i am scum, still hasnt i dont think. i cant let go of maruchan. i dont see any wishy washy play in her. i can see town in her
thunder- would not let go of the tunnel vision on glowball. didnt matter what you said, glowball was scum. the enormous frustration with how ridiculous glowball was doing. no way would scum be that atimant? damn forgot the word. and no way in hell could scum fake it. that was genuine frustration
neutral-
aukmid- very few posts, seems to be trying when he does post I suppose. Wish to see more
robothor- well? Seems to be town at heart, but the whole hydra thing freaks me out. All the “we'll discuss it” and “we both think” definitely puts off an aire of... how do you say, comfort maybe? It seems to be very towny when you have two people conversing about who they think is scum, but I think this could be easily faked. Still I see no scumminess or suspicion, just cautiousness.
Scum
maruchan-
to add to my list, i'm diggin this nice buddying to one of the people who are most suspicious of him.

Saulres, this is why you don't make scum-team predictions.

JUS SAYIN!

Also don't ever forget the favorite tool of scum, WIFOM. If any doc claims today with a save, I highly doubt they are being legit. More likely scum claiming to save, so as to A: Make town think they have a doc when they don't, B: Out the real doc, C: Clear one of their own.

Supreme overlord-
Now this post really, Really, REALLY bugged me, and is actually the post that powered my thought process most of the day

Well, I don't really know if I have a question for you, but I'm curious as to why you're voting Mr. Trow. If you suspect Lane, vote for Lane. It'll take six votes to vote him out, there's no real chance of anything happening while you're away, unless you're going to be away for quite some time. To me, this looks like suspicious behaviour. I have a townish read on you, so this action startles me quite.

My reason for voting Trow is twofold. Firstly, I'm using this vote as a message of sorts to MrTrow; I'm not necessarily expecting more activity from him, but it's letting him know that we haven't forgotton him and he needs to contribute ASAP. Secondly, it's somewhat of a marker to myself; I've found myself forgetting Trow was in the game (not a good sign), so when I read back over my posts later I can be reminded. How effective this will be we have yet to see, but since I'm not keen on voting lane until I get a chance to do a proper case (which may well change my opinion of him), it's a reasonable thing to do IMO.

I think we have better options to pursue rather than wasting a vote and a voice like that.

Since I've not had as much time to post yesterday, today and likely tomorrow, my voice and vote aren't going to be much present anyway, so I think it's worthwhile to use what time I do have to donate to the game in making a smaller statement on Trow.

In ALLLL of my scum-games, I have never considered making a No Kill, or any kill, for 'teehee Wine-in-front-of-me' (loldatrhymes), and I don't believe my team-mates have contemplated such things either.

I'd think the cons to no-killing outweigh the pros for scum, and while (since they know the setup), fake-claiming a doc save is less of a risk than usual, I'm pretty much working on the assumption that there was no scum kill because a member of the town stopped one. Scum tying themselves together with a doc claim and a fake-save is dangerous if we start to suspect either one.

Your mothrax case isn't terrible, but I'm just not entirely assured of the scumminess of it. Be assured, though, that I'll be keeping it in mind as I make my case on lane and decide who to vote.

(here are my thoughts of the day)

if you havent noticed yet, I have trow and mothrax left. In this post of supreme overlords, with trow, he has his vote on him, but says, meh well its not that important I wont be here so i'm just gonna put this on trow, to make it seem like he already has some pressure. Hopefully other people wont put more pressure on my scum buddy, and at the same time, I can look townie. Really this is no pressure. And even so, it does look townie that he is trying to get trow to play. Its a little wishy washy. He puts pressure on trow but not really, since he's only waiting for his case on me.

Then he says something about mothrax at the end. He's wishy washy again. Kind of making it seem like he'll look into mothrax, but really, we all know he's not going to look into mothrax. Even if they arent partners, there is no assertiveness. He is wishy washy.

I wouldnt be surprised if moth and/or trow is surpreme overlords partner.

Saulres' recent postings only make me think its more than likely mothrax.

Considering in 1 of trows posts (and there are only 3) he slightly attacks maru, and votes for the mothrax spot due to inactivity, I find it highly against my reads that it would be trow. So trow moves into the neutral spot.

Scum reads
maruchan
supreme overlord
mothrax

Now as far as the options that happened last night, everyone is saying that a no kill is out of the question. Well, there would not have to be any claim by the scum. All they would have to do was no kill, and wifom, as maruchan has suggested, and if there is a roleblocker and doc, one has confirmed scum, one has confirmed town (if they both think they prevented a kill) scum doesnt have to claim anything. I have to assume all three are evident. Right now we have a roleblocker who thinks they have confirmed scum, cop who's return is unknown, and a doc who thinks they have a confirmed town. The one that scares me the most is the roleblocker who thinks they have confirmed scum. Cause if they get some pressure, and they come out with it. What do we do? When they say, hey i'm the roleblocker, I blocked Blah when there was no kill. Oh ok so then we lynch Blah. So then when Blah turns out town because of the no kill, then we lynch the roleblocker because we thought they were a liar. This is just bad bad bad. Think about it, the no kill IS a completely viable plan.

Honestly, I dont know what happened. I dont think we need to worry about it right now because we need to focus on the scum hunting. If we think about that too much there is just too many scenarios and we will just get completely distracted.

[lane0168]

[

Undeiniable truths.

Glowball flip gives more information than a mothrax flip
My change of heart comes after I came out of the shit storm more scummy to her

My truths

Her information is worth more than her weak scum hunting
If she flips scum I like maruchan even more because I feel her case on me was to create discredit to me because I won't get off the maru vote. I'm not sure she will, but her information is still worth more than her play. I guess if she flips scum it could just make me look scummier for what people called my denfense and now my bussing. I trust this won't be the case.

Call it omgus if you wish glow. I don't have correct symbols on my vote but unvote vote glowball

lane, in this post, did you think glowball was town or scum?

glowball was town in all my posts. i was trying to see the possibility of the glowball scum flip and what it would mean to me. i guess its called being a sheep, because with so many people convinced of glowball, i was forcing myself to try and see it, against my better judgement. i feel you might need more elaboration. or have more questions.

the change of heart i spoke of was the willingness to vote for glowball. i exclaimed earlier than this post that i would not participate in a glowball mislynch. i wish i would have stuck to that, but after our spat, i guess i decided that her information was worth more.

[lane0168]

EBWOP: not everyone is saying a no kill is out of the question. sorry i was in the zone and not really paying attention. everybody was a gross exageration. i was trying to get a point across that it is a possibility.

[Supreme Overlord]

OK guys, lane case (AKA 'I'm Adament'); tl;dr in a following post:

VOTE: MARUCHAN

Doesn't like it if people dont participate in RVS, and doesn't like it when people do participate, or start, RQS. Whether or not someone wants to spew questions, the conversation will start eventually. Probably in the wrong direction.

First post, the one where she voted for Maruchan and left it there for the majority of Day 1. I never liked the 'probably in the wrong direction' idea; not terribly strong, but I felt like lane was trying to insinuate that his way was the (only) right way.

In #31, the knit hat post (and I'm not sure if someone's made this connection before); lane furthers the movement of conversation into the wrong direction by asking a random question. An odd idea since he was clearly aware that relevent conversation was important. (I'm aware lane later defended this by saying it was still RV/QS; however I do think it's strange how these first two posts seem a little contradictory in terms of early game-plan.)

hey mr maruchan. yeah you. id like a little more effort for trying to stay alive

as town

. i'd really like it if you werent basically accepting a

mislynch

. you almost seem, i dont know what you seem, but i'd like it if you put it a little more effort towards staying alive,

if you are town

. thank you and come again. thank you for letting us know what you'll do at L-2 and L-1 though. at least we can know what to expect.

if you are town

. stop accepting being

mislynched

please

This one here's a little weird; there's a lot of emphasis on Maruchan being town, which is odd, since lane's voting him. Lane, care to explain what your thoughts behind this post were?

Can we get to the point now? Cause its a little distracting from scumhunting imo.

I'm town. Now start talking about those two words. Decide if you believe me. And later in the game come back to it for more relevant information.

I think that saying 'I'm town' has just about 0 meaning. In fact, with so little information thus far, it's tricky to say if this is actually any better than what else we're talking about. Looks to me like your trying to say 'hey, look at me, I'm helping out', when really it's not adding much either.

Pretty much sums up what I thought of this post.

i will vote if there is a better case [referring to saulres]

I find this comment interesting, since lane

didn't

change his vote for a long time. I suppose that means he thought his case on Maruchan was superior to all others, but I just couldn't see it.

i had a power roll read on saulres.

This was just bad. Regardless of whether you're picking up PR-tells as town or scum, there's no pro-town reason to out them. Lane, why did you have a PR-read, and why did you change your mind?

personally if i was glowball i would stop responding to thunder

This is not a pro-town sentiment. (Not that I think it would have affected glowball's behaviour); however encouraging other players to ignore posts directed at them is not good advice. Lane, what were you hoping to achieve here?

Lane spent a lot of time defending glowball, which I can't decide whether is scummy or not. glowball flipped town, of course, but there were obviously solid reasons to vote her that were never defended; on the whole I'm thinking scum-lane tried to 'defend' a town player who was obviously not defending herself, hoping to get town 'I told you so' points after the mislynch.
Another scenario occurs to me; it's good for scum-lane to keep a distracting town-glowball around for as long as possible, in order to draw attention away and perhaps get a mislynch later in the game. (Kinda backfired, if that's the case...)

Basically maruchan posts are not good posts. There really isnt much content to his walls. And that whole confirming hoppster as town ploy or whatever basically sealed the deal for me voting for maruchan. I feel like I had more while the game was going on, but cant remember what there was.

huh, that doesnt look like much lol, but its doin it for me

Lane's conclusion to his 'case' on Maruchan. Not a strong case at all, in my opinion, and certainly not worthy of a vote kept for 23 pages. I agree that Maruchan's early game was shady, and his lurking was silly, but apart from that I thought his play had been fine, while there were duelling wagons on NS and glowball that lane could have considered.

[in response to Maruchan's case on saulres] fluff. searching. stretching. die maruchan

Wrong, and without any explanation as to why lane thinks so. It's lane trying to get Maruchan lynched, but without any strong reasoning; just hoping others will jump on board.

Basically id rather mislynch moth than glow. I want no part in to glow wagon today. If she is scum, it should come out later at which point I would be willing to reread that shit storm back there. As far as moth v no lynch, deginately would hammer before a no lynch. One thing to think about, due to lack of activity, the moth flip probably won't give a lot of information whereas a glow flip could be quite enlightening.

Can you explain your thinking behind this post, and why you ultimately changed your mind?

As far as moth vs glowball. i didnt want to be a part of a glowball mislynch.

idk why i'm so against that, i just am.

however, after the last little spat with glowball, the human nature in me started to look at her with a different light. I think i wasnt quite understanding what the big fight was back there, because when i said it was about the saulres case and town reads, amrun said it really wasnt about that. i may have thought that about it, and therefore was failing to understand what i was reading.

The bolded screams of not having proper justification for his words, an just going along hoping it'll be followed and won't be questioned.

glowball town. shocking.

Are you happy that you made the right decision, according to you're cost-benefit analysis?

i will not be going against how i feel anymore. i tried that. and we mis lynched.

So you won't listen to reason if you 'feel' it's wrong? Mislynching isn't all that bad; it's a necessary part of the game, and we came out of it pretty well.

[thunderwielder]

Sweet, in the past little bit while I was reading over things, Lane and Supreme both posted really big cases. It is, however, too late for me to read them. I'll get right on that as soon as possible.

What I was reading over, and what I was going to point out briefly, is that IF the scum were planning on No Killing puposefully, then I hardly see Maruchan/Lane as scum--because why would they have brought forward the option of their plan? BUT if there was a real roleblock/real protect, then this is the way to go about pretending that it isn't worth paying attention to. We have to consider that as well. I find it interesting too that two people that most people are considering scum (or scummy) are the only ones who seem to think that the No Kill has a good possibility of being planned.
In my opinion, that's just a silly thing for scum to do Night 1.
And frankly, I agree, it's time to stop talking about the Night Kill and

MOVE ON to ACTUAL SCUMHUNTING.

So Auckmind, and Mothrax, I WOULD REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY like to hear your thoughts on things. I need to wait a bit to formulate my opinion and gather some more information. Maruchan, I'd also like to hear your case on your main suspect right now (if you've already made it, apologies, and maybe you could link it for me).
RoboThor, I'd really appreciate your input as well. I would have thought hydras would post more often than not--but I understand you not wanting to contradict each other. But Robo, if Thor's really busy, maybe you could just give your thoughts, and then he could post his as well--then we'd have two views? Just a thought.

Let's keep the game moving, guys. I would post a shit storm of suspicions right now, but I have a feeling that a bunch of people jumped on to my suspicions last time, and perhaps some hid behind my suspicions, without feeling the need to post their own. Now this could be town sheeping or scum sheeping, but either way, I don't want that to happen again. I have some notes and some ideas, but I'd really like everyone to post a case on their top suspect, or if you're confused about who your top suspect is--then maybe ask them some questions.
Activity is a way that scum can hide and let the conversation fizzle out--I learned that in my last game. So we need to be pro-active.

@Everyone who voted for Glowball

---could you bring up a bullet point list of why you voted for her (if you haven't already explained already)? Was there one piece of original evidence that you found which cemented in your mind that Glowball was the right lynch yesterday? If you guys want mine... well, I've been pretty vocal about my reasons (and I can't even look at her posts in retrospect without asking "WHY!?" and throwing my head back in desperation and anguish--I still can't believe it. But, Alas, moving on).

[Supreme Overlord]

tl;dr (but please do read the whole thing):
lane chose his vote very early and stuck to it while (IMO) his case was weak and there were better ones going ahead; a general refusal to take other points of view into account.
lane defended glowball to either a) get townie points when she was mislynched or b) keep a distracting glowball around until late-game when she could be mislynched for a scum read.
Making comments without substantial backup in the hopes that they'll be believed and not questioned.

UNVOTE: MrTrow
VOTE: lane

if you havent noticed yet, I have trow and mothrax left. In this post of supreme overlords, with trow, he has his vote on him, but says, meh well its not that important I wont be here so i'm just gonna put this on trow, to make it seem like he already has some pressure. Hopefully other people wont put more pressure on my scum buddy, and at the same time, I can look townie. Really this is no pressure. And even so,

it does look townie that he is trying to get trow to play

. Its a little wishy washy. He puts pressure on trow but not really, since he's only waiting for his case on me.

So you don't buy that, later in the game, I'll be able to read back through my ISO and remember to pay attention to Trow? Do you think that my general appearence has become more townie since I 'tried to get Trow to play'? I suppose it can be taken as wishy-washy, but it's not like I haven't made my thoughts clear about who I was suspicious of; it's not really pressure on Trow at all, just a reminder we know he's there. By the way, does anything in this paragraph make sense if either Trow or I are town?

Then he says something about mothrax at the end. He's wishy washy again. Kind of making it seem like he'll look into mothrax, but really, we all know he's not going to look into mothrax.

This isn't 'something about mothrax'; it's a response to Hoppster in the context of a conversation we were already having about his mothrax

case

. We 'all know' I'm not going to look into mothrax (specifically) because I'd already said I'd be making a case on you today, and I've already said I'm willing to give mothrax a chance to do something useful today.


By the way, on the setup and no-killing; according to the wiki there have been three Pick Your Poison games played; all of which were Doc-RB. There was only one Scum QT available, but it looks like no scum team considered a no kill. I think that the most likely case is Doc-Rb, and with those two roles floating around scum probably want to get every kill they can. (Sorry thunder, but I typed this before you posted.)

I won't bother explaining again why I thought glowball was the right lynch; if you

really

need to know, ask me and I'll tell you.

[lane0168]

OK guys, lane case (AKA 'I'm Adament'); tl;dr in a following post:

VOTE: MARUCHAN

Doesn't like it if people dont participate in RVS, and doesn't like it when people do participate, or start, RQS. Whether or not someone wants to spew questions, the conversation will start eventually. Probably in the wrong direction.

First post, the one where she voted for Maruchan and left it there for the majority of Day 1. I never liked the 'probably in the wrong direction' idea; not terribly strong, but I felt like lane was trying to insinuate that his way was the (only) right way.

probably in the wrong direction. meaning i imagine that the first person to get some blame probably isnt even scum, in this case it was saulres i believe. i also dont believe he is scum. so yes, to me, and if saulres is town, it was in the wrong direction.

In #31, the knit hat post (and I'm not sure if someone's made this connection before); lane furthers the movement of conversation into the wrong direction by asking a random question. An odd idea since he was clearly aware that relevent conversation was important. (I'm aware lane later defended this by saying it was still RV/QS; however I do think it's strange how these first two posts seem a little contradictory in terms of early game-plan.)

they are contradictory if you misunderstand what i meant by the wrong direction. i didnt mean off topic.

hey mr maruchan. yeah you. id like a little more effort for trying to stay alive

as town

. i'd really like it if you werent basically accepting a

mislynch

. you almost seem, i dont know what you seem, but i'd like it if you put it a little more effort towards staying alive,

if you are town

. thank you and come again. thank you for letting us know what you'll do at L-2 and L-1 though. at least we can know what to expect.

if you are town

. stop accepting being

mislynched

please

This one here's a little weird; there's a lot of emphasis on Maruchan being town, which is odd, since lane's voting him. Lane, care to explain what your thoughts behind this post were?

that emphasis was not only yours, but mine as well. the emphasis of not really acting like town, even though he's supposed to be. all my towns and mislynch's were just not bolded, as they were in your quote. but i'm glad you picked up on the emphasis i was trying to convey. Can you tell me the scumminess? are you confused about who i think is scum because i was hypothetically calling them town?

Can we get to the point now? Cause its a little distracting from scumhunting imo.

I'm town. Now start talking about those two words. Decide if you believe me. And later in the game come back to it for more relevant information.

I think that saying 'I'm town' has just about 0 meaning. In fact, with so little information thus far, it's tricky to say if this is actually any better than what else we're talking about. Looks to me like your trying to say 'hey, look at me, I'm helping out', when really it's not adding much either.

Pretty much sums up what I thought of this post.

i will vote if there is a better case [referring to saulres]

I find this comment interesting, since lane

didn't

change his vote for a long time. I suppose that means he thought his case on Maruchan was superior to all others, but I just couldn't see it.

I don't see where voting for a case that you think is superior to others is scummy. Isn't that what you're supposed to do? vote for who you think is the scummiest? can you tell me what the scummy part is in this?

personally if i was glowball i would stop responding to thunder

This is not a pro-town sentiment. (Not that I think it would have affected glowball's behaviour); however encouraging other players to ignore posts directed at them is not good advice. Lane, what were you hoping to achieve here?

this was absolutely pro town. i feel like i said many times that we need to move on from the glowball thing. i didnt see her as being scum now did i? i thought the entire conversation was ridiculous and distracting. i didnt think it could lead to anything good but a mislynch and scum coasting to a lynch. if glowball WOULD HAVE STOPPED, maybe we could have gotten other conversation going, had some new suspects, and possibly avoided a mislynch.

Lane spent a lot of time defending glowball, which I can't decide whether is scummy or not. glowball flipped town, of course, but there were obviously solid reasons to vote her that were never defended; on the whole I'm thinking scum-lane tried to 'defend' a town player who was obviously not defending herself, hoping to get town 'I told you so' points after the mislynch.
Another scenario occurs to me; it's good for scum-lane to keep a distracting town-glowball around for as long as possible, in order to draw attention away and perhaps get a mislynch later in the game. (Kinda backfired, if that's the case...)

holy fucking frustration. can you iso me and tell me how many times i said it wasnt a defense. my biggest defense was i didnt see her as being scum. what i was ACTUALLY SAYING IN MY POSTS, was that i could see where people were coming from, but i didnt see it and that the point has been made, but it was time for us to move on. NOT A GLOWBALL DEFENSE. listen, (point taken, move on) does not equal (glowball defense)

Basically maruchan posts are not good posts. There really isnt much content to his walls. And that whole confirming hoppster as town ploy or whatever basically sealed the deal for me voting for maruchan. I feel like I had more while the game was going on, but cant remember what there was.

huh, that doesnt look like much lol, but its doin it for me

Lane's conclusion to his 'case' on Maruchan. Not a strong case at all, in my opinion, and certainly not worthy of a vote kept for 23 pages. I agree that Maruchan's early game was shady, and his lurking was silly, but apart from that I thought his play had been fine, while there were duelling wagons on NS and glowball that lane could have considered.

one question, is my case on maruchan stronger than the case on glowball? obviously the case on glowball was interpretation. needless to say, it was wrongly interpreted. isn't that what mine is? glowball is confirmed town. i'd say my case on maru is better than that one.

[in response to Maruchan's case on saulres] fluff. searching. stretching. die maruchan

Wrong, and without any explanation as to why lane thinks so. It's lane trying to get Maruchan lynched, but without any strong reasoning; just hoping others will jump on board.

Basically id rather mislynch moth than glow. I want no part in to glow wagon today. If she is scum, it should come out later at which point I would be willing to reread that shit storm back there. As far as moth v no lynch, deginately would hammer before a no lynch. One thing to think about, due to lack of activity, the moth flip probably won't give a lot of information whereas a glow flip could be quite enlightening.

Can you explain your thinking behind this post, and why you ultimately changed your mind?

explain my thinking behind this post? that entire post is my thoughts being typed out. read it. and why i ultimately changed my mind is clearly expressed at the end of day 1. good questions, forgot to read my entire iso though.

As far as moth vs glowball. i didnt want to be a part of a glowball mislynch.

idk why i'm so against that, i just am.

however, after the last little spat with glowball, the human nature in me started to look at her with a different light. I think i wasnt quite understanding what the big fight was back there, because when i said it was about the saulres case and town reads, amrun said it really wasnt about that. i may have thought that about it, and therefore was failing to understand what i was reading.

The bolded screams of not having proper justification for his words, an just going along hoping it'll be followed and won't be questioned.

as in, i dont have proof as to why i think glowball is town, but the case against her, i am against. so yes, it was screaming of not having proper justification. thats what the idk part was about.

glowball town. shocking.

Are you happy that you made the right decision, according to you're cost-benefit analysis?

i will not be going against how i feel anymore. i tried that. and we mis lynched.

So you won't listen to reason if you 'feel' it's wrong? Mislynching isn't all that bad; it's a necessary part of the game, and we came out of it pretty well.

no ultimately i am not happy. if mothrax ends up being town, i think it will have been the right choice at the time. but at this point i am displeased with the outcome. if i "feel" it is wrong, it is because i am interpreting things differently than others. the way i was not seeing the glowball lynch. i will listen to reasons. are you saying not believing that glowball was town was going against reason? and that i was wrong in doing so? mislynching isn't all that bad, especially for scum eh?

[saulres]

Had time to read but not think, need to go to sleep. But there's one outstanding question for me so I want to answer it.

first @saulres, what you thought was lurking wasnt. does that negate what you found? cause really that was just the reason for you to investigate. not really what you found in mothrax's iso

It doesn't negate what I found, which I detailed in 649. It was the impetus for my doing that research today when I had time to ISO one person. So it negates the reason I ISOed, but not the results of the ISO.

[lane0168]

tl;dr (but please do read the whole thing):
lane chose his vote very early and stuck to it while (IMO) his case was weak and there were better ones going ahead; a general refusal to take other points of view into account.
lane defended glowball to either a) get townie points when she was mislynched or b) keep a distracting glowball around until late-game when she could be mislynched for a scum read.
Making comments without substantial backup in the hopes that they'll be believed and not questioned.

no it doesnt, cause its not in that sense. if you need to call it a defense, then you forgot the actual reason i defended glowball. which is that she WASNT EVEN SCUM!!! AND I DIDNT THINK THAT SHE WAS SCUM!! does any of this make sense if i am town?

lol. b) which part of me calling her distracting, and trying to move on, makes me want to keep her around for distraction. by your own reason, i should never have said anything, because scum lane would have absolutely LOVED what was going on with glowball. you think i'm going to try to deter the distraction whatsoever? seriously, if glowball would have made it through that, she could have made it through anything.

if you havent noticed yet, I have trow and mothrax left. In this post of supreme overlords, with trow, he has his vote on him, but says, meh well its not that important I wont be here so i'm just gonna put this on trow, to make it seem like he already has some pressure. Hopefully other people wont put more pressure on my scum buddy, and at the same time, I can look townie. Really this is no pressure. And even so,

it does look townie that he is trying to get trow to play

. Its a little wishy washy. He puts pressure on trow but not really, since he's only waiting for his case on me.

So you don't buy that, later in the game, I'll be able to read back through my ISO and remember to pay attention to Trow? Do you think that my general appearence has become more townie since I 'tried to get Trow to play'? I suppose it can be taken as wishy-washy, but it's not like I haven't made my thoughts clear about who I was suspicious of; it's not really pressure on Trow at all, just a reminder we know he's there. By the way, does anything in this paragraph make sense if either Trow or I are town?

why would it need to make sense if you were town? it was in the sense that you are scum. wasnt meant to make sense if you were town. as far as you being scum, then yes it makes sense if trow is town. especially the part about you voting him.

Then he says something about mothrax at the end. He's wishy washy again. Kind of making it seem like he'll look into mothrax, but really, we all know he's not going to look into mothrax.

This isn't 'something about mothrax'; it's a response to Hoppster in the context of a conversation we were already having about his mothrax

case

. We 'all know' I'm not going to look into mothrax (specifically) because I'd already said I'd be making a case on you today, and I've already said I'm willing to give mothrax a chance to do something useful today..

Be assured, though, that I'll be keeping it in mind as I make my case on lane and decide who to vote.

did i misread this as you'd be keeping it in mind as you make your case on me and decide who to vote? as in looking into it? cause whatever you meant, i wasn't very assured. this was talking about the case on mothrax by the way. you obviously didnt keep it in mind when you were deciding who to vote. which is exactly what i said. why would you? you alread know his alignment. and mine. what exactly were you keeping in mind? and did you keep it in mind?

[lane0168]

Had time to read but not think, need to go to sleep. But there's one outstanding question for me so I want to answer it.

first @saulres, what you thought was lurking wasnt. does that negate what you found? cause really that was just the reason for you to investigate. not really what you found in mothrax's iso

It doesn't negate what I found, which I detailed in 649. It was the impetus for my doing that research today when I had time to ISO one person. So it negates the reason I ISOed, but not the results of the ISO.

alright, i assumed as much, but wanted to clarify.

[Supreme Overlord]

probably in the wrong direction. meaning i imagine that the first person to get some blame probably isnt even scum, in this case it was saulres i believe. i also dont believe he is scum. so yes, to me, and if saulres is town, it was in the wrong direction.

OK, I misunderstood what you meant by 'wrong direction'. Considering chances are that the first person to be accused will indeed be town, why did you bother bringing it up in the first place (as in, what would you do in the early game to

not

go in the wrong direction)?

that emphasis was not only yours, but mine as well. the emphasis of not really acting like town, even though he's supposed to be. all my towns and mislynch's were just not bolded, as they were in your quote. but i'm glad you picked up on the emphasis i was trying to convey. Can you tell me the scumminess? are you confused about who i think is scum because i was hypothetically calling them town?

Is your implication here that, since he's not preserving himself, he's scum? Or is it that you were hoping that if Maruchan was town, he'd start caring about surviving, and if we was scum, he'd just give up and die?

I don't see where voting for a case that you think is superior to others is scummy. Isn't that what you're supposed to do? vote for who you think is the scummiest? can you tell me what the scummy part is in this?

I suppose what I think is scummy about this is that

I

didn't think your case was worth continuing to vote for (in light of the other cases), so the fact that you continued anyway leads me to believe you have an ulterior motive in lynching Maruchan. You took a long time to make that case, and then when you did there wasn't much to it, and little of it was recent. This point isn't really designed to convince other people on it's own; more they need to check your case, then decide whether they think it was strong enough.

this was absolutely pro town. i feel like i said many times that we need to move on from the glowball thing.

i didnt see her as being scum now did i?

i thought the entire conversation was ridiculous and distracting. i didnt think it could lead to anything good but a mislynch and scum coasting to a lynch. if glowball WOULD HAVE STOPPED, maybe we could have gotten other conversation going, had some new suspects, and possibly avoided a mislynch.

I see the bolded as a 'I defended town, therefore I'm town'; townies only know this in hindsight, whereas you seemed very certain. I suppose whether telling glowball to stop is a pro-town move is a matter of opinion, but I think that encouraging a player (who was

alread

refusing to give information to the town) to cease interactions with another player, is not good for the information flow within the town.

can you iso me and tell me how many times i said it wasnt a defense. my biggest defense was i didnt see her as being scum. what i was ACTUALLY SAYING IN MY POSTS, was that i could see where people were coming from, but i didnt see it and that the point has been made, but it was time for us to move on. NOT A GLOWBALL DEFENSE. listen, (point taken, move on) does not equal (glowball defense)

Yes,

you

said it wasn't a defence. Since you were actively trying to discourage another player's lynch (particularly since they weren't defending themselves), sorry, but I see it as defensive, and I'm not inclined to believe you just because you said so.
If a point has been made, we shouldn't just 'move on'; otherwise why bother making a good point in the first place. An indefensible point should be followed up with trying to get as many people to be convinced by that point as possible.

one question, is my case on maruchan stronger than the case on glowball? obviously the case on glowball was interpretation. needless to say, it was wrongly interpreted. isn't that what mine is? glowball is confirmed town. i'd say my case on maru is better than that one.

Benefit of hindsight; you (as town) could

not

have

known

glowball was town.. Subjectively, yesterday, I think the uncountered case on glowball was far superior to the case based on Maruchan's early play and some intentional lurking. (Objectively, the glowball case was stronger because it achieved a lynch.)

explain my thinking behind this post? that entire post is my thoughts being typed out. read it. and why i ultimately changed my mind is clearly expressed at the end of day 1. good questions, forgot to read my entire iso though.

There was no indication between that post and the post where you (tried) to vote glowball that you were going to change your mind. Can you tell us which posts/what time convinced you that you needed to switch your vote?

as in, i dont have proof as to why i think glowball is town, but the case against her, i am against. so yes, it was screaming of not having proper justification. thats what the idk part was about.

I hope you can understand why this doesn't reassure me of your townieness.


I just want to go back to this:

Well when I wanna vote maruchan, a cost benefit analysis gives my vote to glowball. More information. The hard part is interpretting it.

Have you been able to interpret any more than 'glowball was town, therefore lane, who thought glowball was town, must be town'?

if i "feel" it is wrong, it is because i am interpreting things differently than others. the way i was not seeing the glowball lynch. i will listen to reasons.

are you saying not believing that glowball was town was going against reason?

and that i was wrong in doing so?

You may interpret things differently, but remember that it's your job to persuade us to see your interpretation (if you think it's correct). @Bolded: I thought it was quite reasonable to not believe glowball was town. I can't really fathom why some people thought her actions could indicate pro-town alignment, though.

mislynching isn't all that bad, especially for scum eh?

The main problem behind mislynching is that we lose two townies (lynch + kill); since there was no kill, we've largely mitigated that problem. Glowball was either going to be mislynched or become a nuisance in endgame (as being killed by scum was unlikely), so a mislynch of her without a scum kill really isn't a bad thing. As circumstances are now, we've only had one kill, (almost) completely town-driven; not exactly ideal for scum. While it would be nice to lynch scum every day, the reality is it's not going to happen, so it's not worth getting worked up over a mislynch.

no it doesnt, cause its not in that sense. if you need to call it a defense, then you forgot the actual reason i defended glowball. which is that she WASNT EVEN SCUM!!! AND I DIDNT THINK THAT SHE WAS SCUM!! does any of this make sense if i am town?

No, not really, because a town-lane didn't know glowball was town.

By the way, a) and b) aren't exclusive; you can say whatever you like about moving on, but that doesn't mean it was going to happen. Could be empty words from a scum, who can now (after a mislynch) do what you're doing: 'I knew she was town!'.

why would it need to make sense if you were town? it was in the sense that you are scum. wasnt meant to make sense if you were town.

As long as you're not starting from the assumption that I'm scum, then going on to 'prove' that I'm scum from there.

did i misread this as you'd be keeping it in mind as you make your case on me and decide who to vote? as in looking into it? cause whatever you meant, i wasn't very assured. this was talking about the case on mothrax by the way. you obviously didnt keep it in mind when you were deciding who to vote. which is exactly what i said. why would you? you alread know his alignment. and mine. what exactly were you keeping in mind? and did you keep it in mind?

I meant I'd make a case on you, then decide whether it was strong enough to justify a vote on you, or otherwise (probably) vote for mothrax. Going through your ISO, I'm plenty convinced that you're worthy of voting; since I didn't mention mothrax in comparison to the case, the tacit implication is that any reason for voting mothrax is overshadowed by the reasons for voting you.

[lane0168]

Well, I'm done with walls. I've said my. Bit as far as call and response goes. Ill just say I never saidim town because glowball was town. I'm telling you why I didn't vote for her because you are questioning it. Its not a response to "why are you town?" Its a response to "you defended town, you're scummy".

Why do you not hear me when I speak? Can you just listen carefully. I understood the case againts glowball. How could you not in 5 pages. Enough was put out for many people to vote. I was sick of talking about it and wanted to move on. I didn't want to PARTICIPATE in the glowball lynch, but I never tried to convince people that they were wrong. I am being accused for defending glowball, and not defending her enough at the same time?

I guess I'm misunderstanding then. Did you or did you not come up with something for mothrax. Did you do anything as far as keeping him in mind?

[lane0168]

You said the one kill was almost completely scum driven. Do you have any suggestions as to who wasn't town that was helping drive the wagon?

[Xalxe]

Votecount 2.2: The "It's Too Early to Write Flavor; Remind Me Tomorrow" Votecount

Maruchan (2): saulres, lane0168

mothrax (1): Hoppster
lane0168 (1): Supreme Overlord

Not Voting (7)

: Amrun, Auckmid, MrTrow, Maruchan, mothrax, RoboThor, thunderwielder

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline

: September 13th, 7 am EST ((expired on 2011-09-17 07:00:00))

MrTrow is V/LA until Friday.

[thunderwielder]

@Lane, what are the conclusions you've now drawn from the Glowball lynch? As you said mislynching her would at least give some more information (I'm paraphrasing, correct me if I'm misinterpreting).

[lane0168]

@thunder, no that was as good a paraphrase I've seen all game here. Exactly what I meant lol. And I've been concerned with trying to get my list out since that's been on the table for awhile. Also I'm not sure how much help I can be. I know there are much better people than I that can find stuff. When I get the chance ill need to basically re read that whole conversation with you and her, focusing on the people chiming in. I think there are at least two if not three scum on the wagon. Ill try my best to come up with the details.

Did you find any information? I mean you don't have to tell me if you don't want me to say "oh yeah that's what I thought" like with the glowball thing. I just know I'm not that awesome at catching things so when I do it seems blatant

[MrTrow]

Sorry it took so long for me to respond:
(got some work to do, i i want to be welcomed next time like i was here)

1) Amrun
- usefull content, decent(or better) hunting,
- calls out both the lack of any pro-town input (usually there) as well as the 'normal personality' on glowball(contributes to both sides of discussion(looks like no hidden agenda))
: Town

2) Auckmid
- didn`t find much relevant: other than placing the vote based purely on the information the flip would provide (the vote was a prob-last post before a v/la till deadline = good, but washes off all responsibility for the actual flip)
: null-scum

5) lane0168 *
- confident in own reads (way more than when we were buddies, some checkup on this is currently on my todo list)
- #342 'scum would have cracked by now'
: null-town

6) Maruchan
- lurking to see who points it out - bs (especially while in another game with the one that caught you, even if he replaced in later)
- loves yet prevents RQS as discussion starter based on a joke, which lasted from p2 to p8 (on page 4 it was clear, this wasn`t going to get resolved any time soon)
- wifom-lover (at least as scum) who uses 'doc' as base for setup-discussions -> knows the setup?
- few weak 'trying to look town' points (#101 calling thunder town based on the weakest part of his #89, hey i`m also a clumsy-town @#526 )
: Scum
- last line of #634: were you afraid of a total moron(yeah right, it requires more intelligence to write the unvote post than to realise this is a bad idea) going for a no-lynch or glowball`s somewhat clumsy buddy(which would be a second scum identified for the price of a no-lynch)?

7) Hoppster, rep. NihilisticNinja
- pursueing details, not afraid to pick sides
: leaning town

8) mothrax, rep. Nobody Special
- put more effort in meta-ing replacement than in combined information of any kind over both slot-owners combined (#485: busy researching NS-town-games, #499 not fully caught up yet)
: scum

9) RoboThor (Robocopter87/Thor665), rep. petroleumjelly
- very little to comment on, what there is, is ok(or better)
- mainly what i see is: the spontanious reaction of a 2-headed creature and the tone of the bearded man.
: null(+)

10) saulres
- somewhat of a slow starter, but a decent player, nothing questionable found yet.
null-town

11) Supreme Overlord
- uhm, no deadline is closer (#429) and unofficial votecount (#462): 2 accounts of making sure an accidental no-lynch didn`t happen
- informing about me getting replaced (+ pressure-vote in case of a no (detecting there was not pressure behind this vote, requires me to read the game=goal)): wanting more (fresh) opinions in the game is a town-tell in my book
- lane case is bad though (especially the remark on #550)
: leaning town

12) thunderwielder:
- playing a good towngame
- his prod on me 3 days till deadline with no (reasonable) chance to get me lynched: even stronger version of the 'fresh opinion-request'
: town

VOTE: MaruChan

[thunderwielder]

@Lane, yeah, I'm in the same boat. I definitely think it's provided a bit of information, but I need to do a re-read before I confirm anything. I definitely think that good results will be had in seeing how everyone jumped on Glowball, or didn't and why they didn't.

[Amrun]

VOTE: lane

Not entirely caught up after v/la, but I've skimmed. I like MrTrow's catchup post. Lane still scum. Maruchan still not scum.

[lane0168]

Lol its hopeless

[Amrun]

Try again.

[saulres]

???

I like MrTrow's catchup post. <snip> Maruchan still not scum.

6) Maruchan
<snip>
: Scum
<snip>
VOTE: MaruChan

I can't reconcile your statement with the post you reference.

Also: Happy Birthday Hoppster!