The StarCraft II thread

[Knight of Cydonia]

6 POOL.
You make 6 pools, right?

RIGHT?

A friend of mine got SC2 a couple of weeks ago and asked to play his first game against me. He said he'd googled some "famous really strong plays".
He made 6 pools "because I thought that way you could get units quicker?"

[AGar]

Trololol kill your own units to use me is best.

[TheButtonmen]

Every time I saw an irradiated ultralisk attacking bio I'm amused.

Also I just found Saviour vs Bisu 2007 MSL finals commentated by Day9 and Tyler, never seen english version of it before and I was a big Savior fan back in the day. So I'm going on a BW kick tonight and being all old school watching it while I work.

[AGar]

Pm me those links son.

[TheButtonmen]

Them giving a brief overview during pre-game ceremony.
Game 1
Game 2
Game 3

Come have a revolution explained to you by two players with a deep understanding of the game.

[AGar]

Huzzah thanks buttons.

[TheButtonmen]

Thank TL.

[Otolia]

Thank TL.

That's what I wanted to say. It's a featured news in TL.

Otherwise Terran OP -> I hope zergs get a T2 siege unit (lurker) and a anti-caster with something like energy leech in HotS

[TheButtonmen]

I can sum up how useless lukers would be in ZvT with one simple image.


125 HP.
20 Dmg.
6 Range.

Marauders would utterly shred lurkers.

[Otolia]

If you don't mind trading your scan for lurkers, I'll plant one in your mineral line every game. I don't think it will be the lurker or a siege unit though, another caster is more likely.

[JDodge]

If you don't mind trading your scan for lurkers, I'll plant one in your mineral line every game. I don't think it will be the lurker or a siege unit though, another caster is more likely.

infestors aren't enough of a swiss army knife right now that they need another caster?

[AGar]

The only way I'll accept Lurkers being brought back is if I can use the HP Lurkers trick again.

[TheButtonmen]

If you don't mind trading your scan for lurkers, I'll plant one in your mineral line every game. I don't think it will be the lurker or a siege unit though, another caster is more likely.

Lurkers are gas, scans are minerals and if you want to burn scans you show them some bane bombs and force them to scan their way to you. Lurkers couldn't hold up pushs anymore as Marauders can just overrun them instantly.

[pickemgenius]

if you guys need a wtfomgwehave5minstofindareplacement dude and have nobody else around yell at me. otherwise glglgl ^_^

[Kinetic]

Both Zerg and Protoss are underdeveloped. Terran is pretty ok, although I'm sure there are some things that could be added, for the most part the Terran tech tree is pretty solid. For Terran there just needs to be adjustments in damage/health/etc, but they don't need any more units unless some are taken out. I could see the reaper, hellion, raven, and banshee removed for new units.

Protoss is a little better off, but I really think Zerg is underdeveloped right now and could use some love.

Zerg need something in tier 2 that isn't horrible and Ultras need to be fixed somehow. Muta are too situational, Infesters are good, but unless you're Destiny they're best as support, Corrupters are horrible even as anti-air and are just an extra cost for Broodlords, and hydras suck off creep, and on creep they're decent.

Zerg early game seems "ok" right now, and I use quotations on that because it isn't bad. It could be a little more rounded out, maybe another unit that comes out of the spawning pool or roach warren (or perhaps combine the roach warren and baneling nest so both are produced from the same building, that would be interesting). Actually, that is my first change, combine the baneling nest and roach warren into one building. Lets call it Arachnid Pod or something. Make it the same cost as the Warren (150/0), and make it have a 20 second upgrade for 50/50 that allows zerglings to morph into banelings. Also, I might be willing to entertain Queens becoming massive units.

Tier 2 for Zerg is just horrid, as I said before. What do Protoss have for Tier 2? Immortals, Obs, Warp Prisms, Phoenix, Void Rays. Terran? Hellions, Siege Tanks, Ghosts, and Terran 2.5 is just as strong with Valks, Ravens, Banshees, Medivacs and Thors. What does Zerg have? Hydras, Infesters, Mutas and Corrupters. Bleh bleh bleh.

First, zerg needs some kind of siege unit of any kind in tier 2. Lurkers don't really fit, nor Brood Lords. I'd almost be willing to drop Ultras into Zerg Tier 2 right now because I think it would raddically change the meta game and I think they'd be useful here. Actually, I like that, Ultras to Tier 2. That would solve a lot of the Zerg issues in Tier 2. Yes, this would be a strong change of the meta, and ultras might need to be toned down a bit (perhaps make their frenzied ability a trainable ability, and maybe make them have a damage upgrade like chit plating and lower their base damage to compensate) but I'm looking more at units and the feel of the race and less at numbers right now.

Next, Zerg Tier 3, which consists pretty much of Broodlords now that Ultras have been dropped down to Tier 2. I think we need a new caster unit. Either something like the SC1 Queen or the SC1 Defiler. I'm sure there are MANY zergs that would love to see the SC1 Defiler in SC2. Maybe add Lurkers to tier 3, but I'm unsure they fit.

For Protoss, a lot of toss issues revolve around the incredibly strong gateway units. This is what makes PvP so weird and hard to balance. I loved Day 9's comment during MLG: "In PvP the best strategy used to be 4gate, but then blizzard nerfed the 4gate timing, making to take longer, so now the best strategy in PvP is a slightly slower 4gate." And that really is the truth of the matter. When I play PvP, either I lose to a zealot rush (sometimes), or I crush them with 4 gate. If I 4 gate my win % is something like 80% against other Protoss. And gateways are strong into the end game with templar tech, or great fodder for robotics tech.

If anything, I really think Protoss needs to be completely revamped in HotS, but I doubt we'll see the overhaul from the top down that is needed. If Zerg needs more units, Protoss needs different mechanics.

First: Warping in is FUN AS HELL. But balancing it is fucking torture. The fact of the matter is that a pylon on the other side of the field makes it possible for a protoss to instantly reinforce, which no other race can do even half as good. And it is available so early that it makes early pushing much stronger.

Frankly, this needs to be reigned in a LOT. My solution is something like: units cannot be warped in that are not X units away from the Nexus until a Twilight Council is on the field. When a Twilight Council is on the field, then any pylon can be used. Or, better yet, only Warp Prisms can be used for long distance warp-ins, and only pylons within X of nexus can be used to warp in (something liberal so that you can warp in anywhere in your base, but not very far out of it).

For Protoss higher tiers, I think for right now it looks OK. I would be interested in a new higher tier alternative, either in the Twilight Council itself, or move the Warp Prism to the Stargate and drop something new in the Robotics, but I don't think it is too bad right now.

[xRECKONERx]

WTB Firebats

[TheButtonmen]

Zerg is honestly fine unit-wise if the proposed Ultralisk change goes through (70->55 second build time), Zerg T2 units are all amazing (other then corrupter but they are more T3 units as they are pretty useless until you have a Greater Spire as their whole purpose is to guard Broodlords)

but

they are all specialist units, you don't want to just mass up any of them and they all need to be used wisely or else they are terrible.*

Zerg T2 is all about defense, they are meant to give you map control by making your opponents scared to move out and to crush timing attacks, which is why there is no dedicated Zerg T2 siege unit as that wouldn't really fit the race design. For the offensive abilities Zerg gets Roach speed, Baneling speed and Overlord speed/drop at T2 which means Roachs and Banes can now be effective off of creep which allows you to be much more aggressively positioned around the map.

Zerg is all about positioning and implied threats, your method of aggression and map control isn't through power units it's that your opponent doesn't know where your army is so any time they try to move out they need to worry about mutas in their main, speedlings run bys, infestors spamming down a fungal or two and just backing away and so on. You use your map control to spread ovies, spread creep and control the watch towers and just expand / drone up while keeping your opponents contained (they are not contained in the sense that they have a tank line in front of their base, they are contained because you see everything outside of their base, your units are faster then theirs and they don't know where the bulk of your army is). The kind of changes you're proposing would be more geared to allowing zergs to go toe to toe with other races armies in stand up fights which would make Zerg incredibly OP and would require Zerg mobility to be nerfed a fair bit.

As for Toss the new change on the test realm where you can no longer warp units in on ramps fixes 90% of what's wrong with PvP, the last bit of silliness might be solved by the increase in blink research time.

Honestly the only change I really want to see on top of the changes on the PTR is reversing the cost change to Ghosts (From 150M/150G to 200M/100G) and making EMP only remove 75 shields/energy rather then 100 as Ghosts on mass are a touch too strong at the moment.

*Yes hydras are pretty awful outside of a certain niche but are so very very good at that niche, they absolutely murder protoss units as long as the toss has no ranged AoE (aka Collosus or Storms).

WTB Firebats

You really don't; hellions don't take up Barracks time, cost no gas, are more then twice as fast; can be built 2 at a time and have a better range.

[xRECKONERx]

You both are also assuming units in SC2 will have the same stats/cost as units in BW, which probably won't be the case.

[Kinetic]

Nah, I'm not assuming stats/cost at all. I'm looking at units and blatently saying that as it stands now if they kept the stats they might be imbalanced. I'm just saying that it needs some change.

[Ellibereth]

sc2bw is so balanced.

[TheButtonmen]

sc2bw is so balanced.

Clearly you weren't playing it back when seige tanks dealt 140 dmg.

[Kinetic]

sc2bw is so balanced.

Clearly you weren't playing it back when seige tanks dealt 140 dmg.

BEST. DAY9. DAILY. EVER.

[Ellibereth]

WHAT IS THIS LINKLINKLINK

[Ellibereth]

I just idra gg'ed a won game...wow.
NAPTIME

[AGar]

I just idra gg'ed a won game...wow.
NAPTIME

You are one step closer to being a professional.