camn's temperamental - Mini 1232 - GAME OVER

[Haylen]

I'll be back in roughly 8 hours.

[Fishythefish]

Huzzah!

[PeregrineV]

Status reports:
Johhog- Currently on assignment

Parama- I think I found your answer.

...a most-likely-useless role than can be proven to be a real ability but does nothing to impact alignment.

In addition, you have followed up with my secondary mission of "If you think BBMolla is scum, who are his partners?" with

if BB flips scum (which he will) then one of Johhog/Chair is scum.

Please carry on, but note my comment regarding BBMolla in the post following this one.

Haylen- Currently AWOL, and being investigated by Joint Chief Camn.

BBMolla- Attention is on you, but you have 2 votes, the same number as two other players. Stop the defense and start scumhunting.

Chair- It does appear you are working on your mission. I did not see anything regarding Lurconis.

kanyeknowsbest- Sathoris is insubordinate (

probably his parents were hippies

), but is this new army we gotta be more tolerant of that (

). I do like his potential, so don't find myself wanting him to hang today. Maybe just put him in the stockade for a day or two.

RedPanda- Now, I can not see a worse violation of direct orders than your latest report. Is there a reason for that?

Fishy- Outstanding work! I may put you in for a promotion if you keep this up (and keep your boots polished).

Zang- Your non-vote has me head-scratching still, but at least your not REMF and are putting something out there. Carry on.

Lurconis- I see you are in the spirit of things, but personally feel the tree your barking up may be the wrong one. However, carry on.

Twisted- Currently on assignment.

Sathoris- Sass is generally frowned upon, but due to new rules regarding the physical abuse of soldiers, we will put it towards "diversity". Since you are not currently voting, please provide reports on two players of your choice.

[Johhog]

Johhog

1.I don't much like his vote on BB. He says that BB voting me and then unvoting me is scummy, but I don't really see why he thinks that.

2. He doesn't explain why he doesn't buy BB's explanation (ie. vote on me not that serious, unvoted because my wagon was near a lynch).

3. I dislike his play after BB's claim. He moves on to Zang, saying that even if BB is scum he will be forced to help us. But doesn't bother responding to any of the arguments on either side of that issue, except to say that "Sath is coming out more town than kanye in their discussion".

4. Which is unexplained, and rather convenient as Sath is the person he agrees with. I don't see anything he's said since BB's claim which explains why he thinks BB is town.

5. And I don't think "scum would have to help us" is a plausible reason to want BB alive.

1. Because his subsequent vote is a random vote. He had a serious vote which he replaced with a random one.

2. Because his explanation is terribad. "Not that serious". Fair, but it was at least a bit serious, and he did de facto replace it with an entirely random vote. Also, your wagon was near lynch? Since when? I don't think anyone was ready to lynch you at that point.

3. What arguments? And do you really not believe that BB will help us if he's scum? Also, do you have any problem with me moving on to Zang?

4. Of course it's unexplained, what did you expect? One can not use anything else than gut in that situation.

5. Your problem, not mine.

[PeregrineV]

BBMolla Role- While I do not think that his role in and of itself is useful, I can see it as part of a 2-part system, like a sniper team. The sniper and the spotter work to accomplish the mission. While his name cop abilities appear to be useless, I would like to think that if we combine it with further information that it may provide us clues.
For example, he name cops "Peacenik", and someone else has information that "Peacenik" is an enemy saboteur. This is a mechanic that would benefit town, but require us to work as a team. So, before a BBMolla lynch, I want to know if he is a weapon, or the equivalent of latrine duty.

RedPanda- Your explanation seems to be (if I am reading correctly) that you
1. Suspected BBMolla and Fishy as enemy partners.
2. Agreed with Fishy so he wouldn't think you were on to him.
3. Voted BBMolla to "go along" with Fishy
4. Think that he is now voting you for voting BBMolla

Is this correct? Your last post was less clear than I would have liked.

[Fishythefish]

Johhog

1. I don't much like his vote on BB. He says that BB voting me and then unvoting me is scummy, but I don't really see why he thinks that.

2. He doesn't explain why he doesn't buy BB's explanation (ie. vote on me not that serious, unvoted because my wagon was near a lynch).

3. I dislike his play after BB's claim. He moves on to Zang, saying that even if BB is scum he will be forced to help us. But doesn't bother responding to any of the arguments on either side of that issue, except to say that "Sath is coming out more town than kanye in their discussion".

4. Which is unexplained, and rather convenient as Sath is the person he agrees with. I don't see anything he's said since BB's claim which explains why he thinks BB is town.

5. And I don't think "scum would have to help us" is a plausible reason to want BB alive.

1. Because his subsequent vote is a random vote. He had a serious vote which he replaced with a random one.

2. Because his explanation is terribad. "Not that serious". Fair, but it was at least a bit serious, and he did de facto replace it with an entirely random vote. Also, your wagon was near lynch? Since when? I don't think anyone was ready to lynch you at that point.

3. What arguments? And do you really not believe that BB will help us if he's scum? Also, do you have any problem with me moving on to Zang?

4. Of course it's unexplained, what did you expect? One can not use anything else than gut in that situation.

5. Your problem, not mine.

1-2. From BB's posts, he is clearly saying he voted me with a slight suspicion, and unvoted because the wagon was at L-2 and he didn't suspect me enough to justify wanting me dead then. Near a lynch, at least in terms of numbers. What's wrong with that explanation?
3. By arguments, I mean all the discussion of
a) whether BB's claim makes him more likely town
b) if not, whether it's worth leaving him alive anyway.
If BB is scum, he'll tell us a rolename, sure. But the odds of that actually helping catch scum are very, very slim. And no, moving on to Zang was only important in that you moved off BB.
4. I would expect you to say why you agreed with whoever you agree with. Saying "the guy who believes what I believe is looking townier" is a rather underhand way of supporting your statements.
5. So explain to me why you think that if BB is scum he's going to make a decent protown impact on the game. What will we know tomorrow that we wouldn't know if we lynched him today, other than some random person's rolename?

[Lurconis]

@Panda if you thought fishy and bbmolla were scum why would you ever need to go along with fishy to pursue bbmolla. If you thought he was scum shouldn't you of been voting him for that reason.

I don't see scum leting their partner sit at l-1 and then debating that people should hammer them as it was for the good of the town.

Fishy said he was in favor of the BB Molla lynch because even if it could give us some info he didn't feel we should vote someone less scummy if bb was the strongest scum read. He seems consistent in what he has been posting.

Panda you try to make it sound like as soon as you revoted BB fishy did what he was planning on doing and shifted the focus to you, but in reality he continued to argue for the bb case. Do you think this was on purpose?

For now

unvote

VOTE: RedPanda

non related @Fishy or really @anyone earlier Fishy said "TL;DR" just wondering what that means

[camn]

too long; didnt read.

Parama

- 1

( BBmolla )

BBmolla

- 2

( Parama RedPanda )

Chair

- 2

( Haylen PeregrineV )

RedPanda

- 2

( fishythefish Lurconis )

Zang

- 2

( twistedspoon Johhog )

Lurconis

- 1

( Chair )

Sathoris

- 1

( kanyeknowsbest )

NOT VOTING:

( Zang Sathoris )

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is WED, SEPTEMBER 14th, 9am MY TIME.. . Or whenever I get around to it.

[kanyeknowsbest]

too long; didnt read.

Same.

[RedPanda]

@fishy and lurconis

My priority is still lynching the people who are scum. The reason i withheld information was to make sure that i had enough proof on both of them. fishy starting the wagon on BB did make me consider the possibility of him being town but i did not want to take a chance. and at this point i couldnt still tell everybody that fishy and BB might be working together because fishy started the wagon on BB.

ALso

Fishy wrote -This is one scummy Panda. Jumps on a large wagon with the incredibly vague statement that BB is scum cracking under pressure. He gives some insight into why here:

In post 119, RedPanda wrote:Just cause you unvoted to prevent a ML doesnt mean your not scum. it could be that you targeted your scumbuddy at the start to make it look like you guys arent buddies and then unvoted when you thought he might be in danger. also when the votes started coming to you, you use a bet on paramas mother's life which i think is really scummy. what did you expect him to reply? hes obviously not going to bet on it. And my Really Broad statement was to be applied to what i quoted. its a pity why you cant understand why that statement seems that way.


So the first two sentences are a misunderstanding of someone else's point against BB. The way Panda mangles it, he winds up saying that unvoting me isn't townish because it might have been a bus originally. Which... is true, I suppose. But it doesn't remotely say why unvoting me is scummy. And the actual point Parama had made was that unvoting me was scummy because BB got cold feet about a mislynch. This incompetent parroting is mega scummy. Then he says that betting Parama's mother is really scummy - but why? It's clear that BB means "are you very sure I'm scum?". And why's that a scummy question? Panda doesn't share that with us. It's just the kind of thing I can see wagonning scum pick on - it feels somehow like it's an unfair and scummy question for BB to ask, but when you think about it it actually isn't.

After BB's claim, he unvotes because BB is confirmable, and says that BB and I were his top suspects. He then agrees with me that actually it makes no sense to unvote someone because their role is confirmable. And backtracks massively, saying:

In post 178, RedPanda wrote:actually fishy the only reason i thought you were scum was cause of BB's interactions with you from the start. its more of a gut feeling that one of you are scum. i was actually more inclined to BB as scum and you as town. and you do provide valid points against BB, my inexperience didnt let me think about that.


This seems to say that he had a feeling that one of BB and I was scum. And that's it's BB. Which is pretty much in direct conflict with his previous post. Reads like, seeing my explanation, he realises that he's safe on the BB wagon, and drops his suspicion on me as unnecessary. He's also now twice explained his vote on BB by saying he voted to pressure him - and still not adequately explained his actual vote.

Panda looks to me like a shameless bandwagonner. It doesn't feel like he cares much about whether BB is scum. Scummy.

Fishy Your whole reason for voting me was Because you think im a bandwagoner and ive proved that im not and youve actually quoted exactly the texts where i call you scum twice.

@Voting For BB to go along with fishy - BB is my number one scum suspect.
@perengrinev - i am trying to out scum. im sure that fishy and BB are scumbuddied. would you want me to just ignore them?

[Chair]

I believe the claim too. BBmolla is still my favorite lynch. In fact, I will not be changing my vote for the rest of the day. What does his claim have to do with his alignment at all?

Frankly, at first, I didn't consider the possibility of a scum name cop, and right now, on rereading, I don't really see bb as scum in general.

But what can he do for town? I have a decent idea of what the flavor entails and I'd think that flavor names aren't going to be indicative of alignment in this game. Which also means scum have no reason to fakeclaim.

A few things.
First of all, if you're town, you have no reason to assume that all flavor names are not indicative of alignment. Who knows? The scum's names could be indicative of scum. Second of all, just because scum have no reason to fakeclaim, doesn't mean that they necessarily won't.

Either way: dismissing the idea of a flavor cop having no utility for town is... a bit strange when the town doesn't know what the scums' flavor names are. I understand that you're tunneling him, but still. Lurconis touched on that.

That's not doublethink.

And I'm not saying it is; I'm saying that doublethink was the word or concept that BB was looking for to express his thoughts on whatever it was.

I'll finish reading everything tomorrow, i really need to get a decent amount of sleep tonight.

Parama: would you say that you, as town, often wind up tunneling this early? And when I say tunneling, I don't mean having a strong scumread, I mean the extent of tunneling that you're doing with BB right now.

Still waiting on this answer.

-implosion

[RedPanda]

EBWOP im sure that fishy and BB are scumbuddies*
As for the interactions which caught my eye between fishy and BB. i would suggest that you read this believing both of them are scum even if you still are not convinced.

Post 39 - Vote made by BB on fishy out of random .
Post 53 - BB's unvote on fishy - nobody in their right mind would lynch some1 that early. if somebody did it they would feel the wrath of others. i got suspicious of BB now.
Post 59 - Pressure on fishy during RVS - lol?
Post 85 - Fishy lets every1 know that BB CLEARLY thought he was scum.
Post 87 - Fishy continues with driving a wedge between him and BB.
Post 88 89 91 by zang and sathoris. i really want both you guys to post because i think both of you are town and fishy must be stopped.
Post 97 didnt catch anything there but i still feel the connection
Post 111 still driving a wedge. Cmon he even says stop painting me as scum and if u think im scum vote me. i think fishy might be his scum buddy here.
Post 120 Im Believing my convictions even more.
Post 128 Is it just me or are there just too many fishy and BB references?
Post 136 BB is increasingly becoming scum in everyone's eyes and fishy's still against him. can you blame him?
Post 148 they do talk to each other a lot.
Post 156 Sathoris didnt answer your question, how come you didnt press it any further?

im sorry im late for college, il be back in a while to continue.

[Fishythefish]

Fishy Your whole reason for voting me was Because you think im a bandwagoner and ive proved that im not and youve actually quoted exactly the texts where i call you scum twice.

QFT. Your play makes a lot more sense through the lens of tunnelling on me and BB as a scumpair. Your explanation of why you held back on calling me scum makes me more comfortable... though why did you say

the only reason i made the post about you no longer seeming scum to me

was just to make sure i dont get nked in case i was wrong

(i believed you might be town at that point but i didnt want to take a chance).

I still don't see how the nk is involved.

So yeah, you're probtown - I don't see tunnelling on a scumpair as a likely scum move.

To address some of your actual points (ignoring some of the ones that are purely BB):

85/87: here I'm saying that BB's vote had some seriousness in it. Which... it did.
97 (though by BB): if you say "I didn't catch anything there but I still feel a connection", you should start strongly considering the possibility that you are looking far too hard for connections that don't exist. That sentence shows you are exhibiting a particularly extreme form of tunnelling.
What do you mean by "driving a wedge"? I don't see what you're getting at beyond "calling each other scum a bit".
120: I bring up a new point against BB. Sure, if you have an arbitrary BB-fishy assumption you can say that is distancing. But why on earth do you think it is?
128: what do you mean by there being "too many BB and fishy references", and why does it make us scum together? It may be relevant that at this point in the game, all the action had involved at least one and sometimes both of us.
136: er... so what you're saying here is that people are finding BB scummy. And that I was finding BB scummy. And so... what? Again, if you have already decided that BB and I are scum together, you can say whatever you like - hanging back from his wagon would make me look bad, say. But without that decision, all you have is me agreeing with the BB wagon. That's all.
148: yes, we do. I'm an active player, BB was someone I suspected and wanted answers from. So we exchanged a lot of posts. And?
156: I forgot about it.

So. To summarise, when I suspect BB it's distancing. When I vote BB, it's bussing. When I unvote BB, it's to save his skin. When BB votes me, it's bussing. When I comment on anything BB has said, or vice versa, it's because we're scum together.

Sure, if we were scum together all that would be true - but none of it is the only explanation, and you really haven't explained why you think it likely. Once you decided we were scum together, you saw connections everywhere - because it's clear your thought process went:
- Fishy (or BB) has made a post about BB (or Fishy).
- Now, we already know they're scum together. Why did Fishy make that post?
- Oh yeah, for reason X.
- Fishy made that post for reason X! They really

must

be scum together.
Go back over your points, and try hard to think "if I didn't already think that BB and Fishy are scum together, would this make me think they are?". Because if the answer to that is "no", it's not evidence that we are scum together.

Anyway,
UNVOTE:
because Panda's response to my case is stunningly good, at least in convincing me he's town.

[Lurconis]

@panda on phone niw but, will reread posts you mention when I get home

[RedPanda]

im back.

what made me really suspicious about your interactions with BB where that they seemed too forced to me - this is a gut read, i cannot show it to people.
i understand what your saying about me seeing connections everywhere when i decided you were scum together. ive only played mafia in real life and we had no added mechanics, these things are new to me so when you explained the fact that BB's roleclaim did not prove his alignment , i did think that there was a chance that i might have jumped to conclusions because i saw you both as scum from the start. but your unvote on sorgster to vote for me just felt too planned for me. i admit my not going all out on my scum reads might seem like scum to people - but i find thats the best way to find scum.

At this point im not going to change my vote on sorgster. now that you think im town are you gonna change your vote back to sorgster?
if not who else ?
and one more thing ive wanted to ask you - when you suspected bb why didnt you vote for him to add pressure on him? your vote on bb was in post 206 , you said that the vote on bb was because you think it could be a scum role but why vote for him now when you hadnt voted for him earlier? did your convictions about him grow stronger. if so why? and why did you unvote him? you explained that it was cause all the people you felt were scum voted for him. is there any other reason why hes no longer scummy to you?

[Twistedspoon]

RL is crazy and terrible right now

I'll try and get a catchup done for some point but right now I have harder things pressing down on me

[Sathoris]

Unfortunately same here. My employer decided to surpise me with a last minute conference so I'm rushing to prepare and will be V/LA this weekend.

[Fishythefish]

sorgster = BB?

I'm not going to be voting BB unless things happen - after my reread I'm not at all sure he's scum, and changing my mind about you doesn't change that all that much. Chair and Johhog are my top candidates.

On when I voted BB - for a while I thought Lurconis was scummier. When that changed, BB was at L-2. I wasn't ready for a claim or a lynch until I'd heard more from BB, so I didn't put him at L-1. I then asked him to claim at L-1, and from there I voted him as soon as I realised his wagon was small enough that I wasn't risking a quicklynch. This took a little while, probably because I'm lazy and the mod didn't post a votecount for a while.

My unvote is explained in my reread post - I found a lot of the points on him really weak, in a way I hadn't noticed first time round. Add that to all my scum suspects voting for him, and he looks a bit better.

VOTE: Chair

I don't like the way they aren't posting reads, I don't like their response to BB's claim, and I really don't like the way they have said very little about BB - in a game based around BB. All looks like scum trying to avoid attention.

[RedPanda]

yea sorgster = bb. sorry about that . hes from another game.

[Johhog]

I did post reads once though, didn't I?

Also, for some reason I don't really feel involved in the game yet. Let's hope it will change. :/

[Fishythefish]

Sorry - the "they" in my last paragraph refers only to chair. I can't make up my mind whether a hydra is single or plural.

[Lurconis]

Still wondering what did tl;dr mean

[Fishythefish]

Someone answered. Anyway, it's short for "Too Long; Didn't Read". You say it when you do a summary of a post for people too lazy to read the whole thing.

[camn]

yawn.

Parama

- 1

( BBmolla )

BBmolla

- 2

( Parama RedPanda )

Chair

- 3

( Haylen PeregrineV fishythefish )

RedPanda

- 1

( Lurconis )

Zang

- 2

( twistedspoon Johhog )

Lurconis

- 1

( Chair )

Sathoris

- 1

( kanyeknowsbest )

NOT VOTING:

( Zang Sathoris )

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is WED, SEPTEMBER 14th, 9am MY TIME.. . Or whenever I get around to it.

[PeregrineV]

I'll be back in roughly 8 hours.

...........