Newbie 1151 ÔÇô Game Over

[Isa]

2. "Gut" in quotation marks. At the time Xeras asked her question to Racerman, Racerman had made ONE (1) post, and Xeras found it oh-so-scummy...apparently RVS votes for the first one to post is scummy in his book? I find that to be more "gut" than anything else.

So, you know... Just like every other vote early on?

Sure, but do YOU find Racerman's first post suspicious at all, because I don't, and Xeras somehow did.

I am not afraid to sheep a case I find good.

Your found Krazy's "gut" read on Stels a good case?

You know, because he was basing his suspicion on ONE (1) post that he found oh-so-scummy...

Um... Yeah...

Yes. Also, By the time I posted, the amount of posts Stels had made had already doubled. Woop!

but even then I /did/ state opinions on why Stels was scum that I hadn't seen written earlier.

No you didn't. Maybe late in D2, when you were saying that Stels is scum with Xeras, but nowhere before then.

Oh yes I did. Check the end of #112. From there on though I sheeped (shept?) a lot though, that is correct.

I think it should be blatantly obvious that when we're in LyLo, a single vote can spell disaster should it be town-on-town.

Do you actually think it's town-on-town?

Well obviously no, but the voter is town and wrong, disaster strikes. Unneeded risk.

Also, me putting down who I believe to be the second scummiest in the scum category is now scummy?

Yes, because you said that you didn't actually think Stels was scum but you put Stels in your scum category purely because you felt you needed to put two people there.

Still, if you really felt Stels was the scummiest player in the game next to Xeras, then why is there so little on why in your ISO?

Eh, I can understand why you're picking at it, but I really don't consider it a scumtell of any sort. Also, because of me mainly suspecting Xeras (hence having my vote on him) but also the sheeping. I thought we went through this?

quickhammering like that is incredibly scummy AND anti-town

... Only if said player flips town. Or do you think it would have been scummy and anti-town if he had quick-hammered scum?

If my top scumread quickhammers one of my earlier townreads and who had only recently started to drift towards being null, I am going to assume that it was not a scumlynch ahead of us. If you read the twilight posts, nobody believed that Lord would flip scum. Also, look at Newbie 1144, where I was a VT and we had two quickhammers like this one. I raged just as hard.

I wasn't mad at the fact that it was specifically Lord who was hammered, I was mad at the fact that we had a quickhammer on one of my townreads (admittedly he had become more null towards the end of the day), and it was cast by my top scumread.

Oh, I understand that the hammer was done by your top scum read but that doesn't explain the fake-looking rage when you shouldn't have known that Lord was going to flip town. At the end of D1 you were flip-flopping on your read on Lord, and then when Xeras hammers, you all-of-a-sudden became sure that Xeras quick-hammered town.

I think the above answers this.

why is this something you're holding against me and not Krazy?

Because you were berating Krazy for changing his mind during twilight (hint: that's not actually scummy) and you completely dropped it D2 for some reason.

Too busy tunneling on Xeras. Krazy became a townread for me during day 2 and I wanted to push the Xeras wagon instead of splitting my attention onto what I believed was a townie.

8. If there's one thing I'm scared of and hate, it's quickhammers. Especially in LyLo. I encourage you to unvote quickly (same goes for Krazy still).

Tell me what you think of Krazy's vote on Stels and Stels FoS on Krazy?

Don't give me spiels about quickhammering. I want to know what you think of it.

I am much more wary of Krazy (and you) due to his vote, and it has made me doubt my read on Krazy. In my mind, one of them is scum, LEANING Stels right now (again, I'm much more doubtful of Krazy now) - probably along with you due to the lack of quicklynch on me. The FoS doesn't bother me in the slightest - Stels has had Krazy as his top scumread since day 2, so I am not surprised.

[zMuffinMan]

@Isa,

It's not about what I personally find suspicious. If everyone found the same things suspicious, there'd be no arguments in this game...

My issue with your reaction to the hammer is that you were 100% convinced that Lord was town as soon as Xeras hammered. Even if you truly believed Xeras was scum, it make no sense for you to immediately rule out the possbility of bussing, or the possibility that... Oh, I dunno, you're wrong. It looked like an over-exaggerated reaction to a lynch you knew was going to flip town.

[Stels]

As an IC, I don't think he would endanger town with such an early vote in LyLo, so I think that would make it plausible and undeniably true that Krazy is in fact scum. The other suspect is still out there somewhere, but my read stands unfaltering.
Treat that as WIFOM, and I know it is WIFOM, but I'm betting my money on this.

[Krazy]

As an IC, I don't think he would endanger town with such an early vote in LyLo, so I think that would make it plausible and undeniably true that Krazy is in fact scum. The other suspect is still out there somewhere, but my read stands unfaltering.
Treat that as WIFOM, and I know it is WIFOM, but I'm betting my money on this.

There's nothing dangerous about a vote on scum.

"An IC wouldn't do this, so he must be scum!" mwf I made this exact same argument as scum in a newbie game not one game ago. Absolutely every argument you make is almost word for word an argument I have made as scum and I have yet to see a reason pretty much anything you have said would come from town. That is literally the scummiest attack there is. The entire game you have refused to make any sort of coherent, reasonable case on me, instead downplaying my case on you as "gut" while sandbagging on why I suddenly become your top suspect (spoiler: it's OMGUS but you want to deny that too), until you finally are trying to come up with reasons that I MUST be scum, without thinking of the scum motivation behind I would do it.

Would I do this as dedicated town? Yes. Because I've been paying attention to this game and I know you're scum. Could I be wrong? Yes, but as a one of three living townsided players, it is extremely important that we lynch the right person today.

Would I do this as scum? Nope. If there was a town PR that cleared you, I'd be dead after a vote like that.

[Krazy]

Muffin I've been trying to not interfere with your duel with Isa here, because it's very informative, but it would be pretty baws if at some point you indicated a bit more clearly what you think of Stels. Thanx.

[zMuffinMan]

To be honest, I was waiting to see how Isa handled this Krazy vs Stels situation.

I think it's Isa and one of you/Stels. I think Stels is more likely for reasons I've already listed.

[Krazy]

What are your thoughts on Ranmaru then?

[zMuffinMan]

Town who's not posting enough.

What are your thoughts on him?

[Isa]

Epsilon is distancing me and possibly going for the town points later.

So Xeras/Epsilon are on the same level here for me.

Guys are you sure we can't lynch this slot today?

Also, this should probably be explained by Stels...at the moment I believe the scum pair is Stels/zMuffinMan.

[zMuffinMan]

No.

[Isa]

Yes.

[zMuffinMan]

No.

[Uite]

Ranmaru

has been prodded.

[Ranmaru]

Trying to guess what the scum teams and D1, especially 10 pages into the day is definitely not a good and definitely not the time to talk about it.

Anyone reading this post should from Stels should ask themselves:

-When according to Stels would be the right time to try to guess what the scum teams are? I have myself focused on pairs in the past, and have been told that during D1, that it wouldn't really hold much water before having enough info. In Crazy's case, I was pairing him up with Vordark. IF Crazy would have been lynched, he'd flip town and Vordark would most likely be cleared, if Vordark got lynched, Crazy would be condemned. This is not a scumtell, because this is Stels scumhunting in his own way, and I don't see how you think it is a scum tell and I would think you'd know better, Krazy.

-How is discouraging players from speculating on the scum team pro-town? That is, why, as town, would Stels, assert this? Possibly to stop scum from getting falsely cleared or town falsely condemned upon one's flip. It is a null tell.

-Can you think of a reason that, as scum, Stels would assert this? Yes, as scum, he could do that to create wifom. Now, who did he ask to stop speculating about?

If your reads change constantly, then what's the purpose of discussing these scum teams if one or the other or both people that you believe to be scum are constantly switching?

-

Everyone,

does this question strike you as a post from someone who is scum-hunting?I don't think this shows if he is scum hunting or not. I am interested in why he believes you are scum.

Are you saying you didn't badhammer/scumhammer, Xeras?

Are you saying that there is way to be neither a badhammer, nor a scumhammer in a mislynch?

IIRC or something along those lines, no one asked to hammer Lord yet, therefore you are at fault here.

What if I was at L-1 D1 in this game and claimed cop. With all of my posts that I may have posted and in the same manner as I am posting now, would you still keep your vote on me?

-Stels blames Xeras for the hammer as a scummy move, yet simultaneously argues that even if a player claimed a PR they would be hammered anyway. Why would a town-sided player argue both of these points in the same post?

I don't see the scum motivation within that. Rather, I don't see any other context in this post, so I don't see what you are saying. Are you saying he contradicted himself?

[Ranmaru]

Sorry guys, I have been a little busy. Posting more in a bit.

[Ranmaru]

Actually, I'd also like to hear why Isa is so against Krazy's vote on Stels and Ranmaru's thoughts on Isa/Stels.

Town read on Isa. I felt his entrance post into the game was the strongest, and he addressed many things which he had questioned. I think you say something about him sheeping Krazy, but I find that as a null tell since I have seen players sheep IC's usually. I will never support a lynch on him.

Null Town on Stels. This is because I feel Krazy's push on Stels is fake, and I still don't understand why Isa also suspects Stels. Null town because I haven't seen him post much, and I KNOW he can do stuff from playing with him in skype.

--

Scum read on Krazy. I feel he hasn't really cared about his suspects legitimately. He has done well as an IC, but hasn't really been looking for scum. His push on Stels was just him trying to push an inactive slot, because he couldn't push most of the people that were active. He attacked him for attacking Lord for giving points to Krazy for not RVS'ing me, which was totally wrong, yet he never considered that. Notice how Stels posts a rebuttal to Krazy in #361, yet he hasn't even responded to it. I also didn't see much interest in waiting for me to post during D2, and he just hammered without considering that I may have been busy and couldn't get to the thread yet. He goes "Oh well Ran didn't reply to me, what a shame" and hammers when he still have plenty of time to wait.

Slight scum read on you. Your slot hasn't really done much earlier, and going off of POE.

I'm going to

FoS: Krazy

again, because it will soon become a vote after everyone talks and we decide on a lynch. I am confident in my Krazy Read, and once he flips scum, we'll lynch you.

[Stels]

Epsilon is distancing me and possibly going for the town points later.

So Xeras/Epsilon are on the same level here for me.

Guys are you sure we can't lynch this slot today?

Also, this should probably be explained by Stels...at the moment I believe the scum pair is Stels/zMuffinMan.

As in, staying away from me, meaning he has no opinion of me or that of a silly VI town. If I flip then he would gain town points since I would flip town. Then again, I forgot that it's LyLo and even if I flip, it won't matter then. If he flips scum, then I will be viewed as scum the next day for my remark I guess. WIFOM, hence I left it out there as food for thought, yet it was part of my suspicion against him and how he acted towards me. I don't know what I was thinking there, but I definitely forgot it was LyLo.

Sorry, I'm usually active during LyLo, but I don't feel this in the current game(s) I'm playing...
I'm really not trying this game, and that is my downfall =/

@Ranmaru: Refer to epic picture.

[Krazy]

Null Town on Stels. This is because I feel Krazy's push on Stels is fake,

and I still don't understand why Isa also suspects Stels.

Null town because I haven't seen him post much, and I KNOW he can do stuff from playing with him in skype.

This is the second time you have asserted Stels as town as a result of MY posts. Ranmaru, I cannot stress this enough: you need to judge Stels' posts this game on their own merits. Ignore your past-game meta, and read the posts this game. You are constantly saying I haven't cared about my suspects, but you seem to be just ignoring slots and over-focusing on the case of other players on a slot as a basis for a read. What is going on?

[quote="In post 390
Scum read on Krazy. I feel he hasn't really cared about his suspects legitimately. He has done well as an IC, but hasn't really been looking for scum.

His push on Stels was just him trying to push an inactive slot, because he couldn't push most of the people that were active. He attacked him for attacking Lord for giving points to Krazy for not RVS'ing me, which was totally wrong, yet he never considered that. Notice how Stels posts a rebuttal to Krazy in #361, yet he hasn't even responded to it. I also didn't see much interest in waiting for me to post during D2, and he just hammered without considering that I may have been busy and couldn't get to the thread yet. He goes "Oh well Ran didn't reply to me, what a shame" and hammers when he still have plenty of time to wait.

[/quote]

You've said this before and it still just doesn't. make. sense. What the hell do you mean I had to "push an inactive slot, because he couldn't push most of the people that were active"? I don't understand this criticism at all. Furthermore, this is still denigrating my suspicions of Stels to a "push"--my first vote on Stels on Day 1 might have been a push, but my read of Stels has strengthened over the game. How was Stels attacking Lord for giving points to me "totally wrong" and how have I not considered it? Lord flipped town; if anything, you are not considering the fact that Stels really was misreading (intentionally or not) Lord's post there as scum-based rather than town-based.

As for me not waiting for you to post before hammering, what exactly were you going to say that I needed to wait for? You can complain about me not waiting all you want, but the game was seriously dragging, we were pretty much just waiting for you, and you even said you were going to post and then didn't. I did give you a chance, and still you did not post. That there was more time on the clock doesn't mean that you weren't wasting our time, and people were becoming bored waiting.

[Krazy]

I never OMGUS.
I just firmly believe that you're scum and nothing will change that.
I never said that. The fact that you came up with a half-assed reason to vote me and keep to it, rather than exploring your "other" unknowns just shows you how much of a hypocrite you are right now.
Downplaying = defense? You really love to use that word and not know what it means, do you?
Also, I am pretty firm on my read on you as far as I can tell, so no need to reaffirm there.
Bandwagoned onto Lord? Really? As far as I can tell, I was the second vote on that so called 'wagon' and it took 5 to lynch. If anyone, it was you who wagoned onto Lord when it was blatantly obvious that Lord was town at that point.
Maintaining face isn't a top priority, but because of your actions, I criticized you and gave you advice on what you should have done. Instead of using half-assed reasons and PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH, you should have just stayed quiet like the good little scum-IC that you are.
V/LA obviously doesn't apply to that does it? I wasn't a part of the majority of the game, how do you expect me to respond to events that lead up to the lynch of Lord? He already flipped, ok. Oh big deal I spent 25% of my post talking to dead Lord. OH NO. WHAT A DISASTER AMIRITE? I have found my one and 100% confirmed for me scum suspect and that's you. I kept to you, what more do you want? The fact that your posts and case on me is hinging on staples that can't even uphold the case together is just ridiculous.
Oh, so you don't want to know the reason why I was absent from this game? OK, I will note that next time.

This is the rebuttal you're saying needed a response, Ranmaru? The whole thing boils down to "No I didn't!"

Stels has never, at least to my satisfaction, explained why my suspicion of him is not incorrect instead of scummy. All he has suggested is that I was "pushing an easy slot", but this makes no sense. A quiet slot is never an "easy" push since you have to wait so long for people to respond and there's so much less to work with, and in any case at some point Stels never really explicated how I was scummy for suspecting him, he simply decided I was scum and started listing me as his top suspect. This is pretty clearly OMGUS: Stels suspects me because, and only because, of my case on him.

After that Stels misrepresents my views of him in regard to others saying I should have explored "other unknowns." This is a scum statement, for two reasons. First of all, I have never listed Stels as an unknown; Stels has been my top scumpick since day 1. There is nothing unknown about that. Second of all, even saying I should have "explored other unknowns" is basically saying "you should have focused on town vs town" which is what unknowns often are. It's just a slimy, scummy statement. But I'm sure you'll just let it slide, Ranmaru, as apparently you're more interested in me responding to Stels' "defense" that thinking critically about why Stels is saying what he's saying.

Stels continues to maintain that I should have "saved face" and pushed on other players. This still makes no sense. At all. And this stance can pretty much only come from a scum player.

His QQing about V/LA I'm not going to bother responding to.

[Krazy]

I have myself focused on pairs in the past, and have been told that during D1, that it wouldn't really hold much water before having enough info. In Crazy's case, I was pairing him up with Vordark. IF Crazy would have been lynched, he'd flip town and Vordark would most likely be cleared, if Vordark got lynched, Crazy would be condemned. This is not a scumtell, because this is Stels scumhunting in his own way, and I don't see how you think it is a scum tell and I would think you'd know better, Krazy.

Okay, Ranmaru, you need to step back and realize the difference in the two different phenomenon you're talking about.

-You were told not to speculate on scumteams when, according to the account you list here, you were creating day one chainsaws. Day 1 chainsaws is not a good idea, I agree on this.

-On the other hand, what you were doing--speculating on possible scum teams, was coming from the right place. It suggested you were town.

-Conversely, Stels is basically discouraging people from ever discussing scumteams. There was no chainsaw present in my case. I was asking whether two people were likely to be scum together. This does not mean they could not be scum with other people. Speculating on scum teams is not the same thing as creating early chain saws. And you cannot, and should not, see the two behaviors as coming from the same player types.

-Furthermore, Stels was combining this refusal to speculate on scumteams with a "your suspicions of players must always come with a vote." Town players want to openly discuss their possible suspicions of many players. Scum players want town players to always indicate all of their thoughts with a vote, since this way they can retain their sense of the game and adjust their play accordingly.

The two phenomenon are completely different. Your day one chainsaws were a problematic tactic, but they were coming from the wrong place. Stels' day one behavior is anti-town and coming from scum. You need to be able to distinguish between the two.

Possibly to stop scum from getting falsely cleared or town falsely condemned upon one's flip. It is a null tell.

Again, there is no "falsely cleared or condemned" -- speculating on scum teams means that, if one player flips scum, that another player will be more suspicious. It does not "clear" one player or "condemn" them--this is something chainsaws do, which is just not the same thing.

I don't think this shows if he is scum hunting or not. I am interested in why he believes you are scum.

He was accusing me of having an opinion change too much. Scum will often want to pin you down to one vote because they want to quietly control the pace of the game so they know who will be mislynched and when to bus if they need to. Town change their mind based on new information. This is most definitely a scumtell that suggests Stels at no point this game was actually scumhunting.

Seriously, Ranmaru, step back, stop identifying with Stels, and think about what Stels has done this game and why Stels has done it.

[Krazy]

As in, staying away from me, meaning he has no opinion of me or that of a silly VI town. If I flip then he would gain town points since I would flip town. Then again, I forgot that it's LyLo and even if I flip, it won't matter then. If he flips scum, then I will be viewed as scum the next day for my remark I guess. WIFOM, hence I left it out there as food for thought, yet it was part of my suspicion against him and how he acted towards me. I don't know what I was thinking there, but I definitely forgot it was LyLo.

Sorry, I'm usually active during LyLo, but I don't feel this in the current game(s) I'm playing...
I'm really not trying this game, and that is my downfall =/

Q) How does Epsilon get "town points" if you flip town for saying you're likely scum?
A) He doesn't. This answer from Stels makes no sense.

Q) How does Stels forget it is lylo?
A) He doesn't, he is lying scum.

[zMuffinMan]

I think you say something about him sheeping Krazy, but I find that as a null tell since I have seen players sheep IC's usually. I will never support a lynch on him.

No, that wasn't the point.

He attacked someone for making a judgment based on "1 (ONE) POST" and then went on to sheep Krazy who attacked Stels based on a single post... ... ...

Do you not see the cognitive dissonance here?

[Krazy]

No, that wasn't the point.

He attacked someone for making a judgment based on "1 (ONE) POST" and then went on to sheep Krazy who attacked Stels based on a single post... ... ...

Do you not see the cognitive dissonance here?

Muffin, not to step in, but there is a substantive difference in the two points. Critiquing a player for attacking a player over the equivalent of an RVS non-point vote is not the same as entering at mid-game on day 1 and claiming to have a case supporting the leading wagon which they then get on. The situations were different, the content of the posts were different, and the motivations revealed were not the same.

[zMuffinMan]

You seem to be missing the point. I'm calling Isa's initial read on Stels bullshit, because it was based on something Isa criticised Xeras for doing as scummy.

[Krazy]

I'm not missing the point at all. You're saying that, based on Isa on Xeras on Racerman, that when Isa was on Krazy on Stels, that Isa should have been skeptical of my case. But you're ignoring both the contextual difference (RVS vs midgame), and the substantive difference (Xeras on Racerman was totally random because Racerman had only made an RVS vote, which almost exclusively had no substance behind it VS my case on Stels, which despite being based on "one post" the one post that Stels made was a case on Lord that was a combination of sheep and scum reasoning, and was decidedly not random.)

Isa's only mistake there was not recognizing that Xeras on Racerman was random, not scummy, but honestly it's really hard to tell random nonsense from scum actions some times. However, since both the context and substance of the cases that Isa was responding to was different, there's no reason to say that my case on Stels was sufficiently similar enough to Xeras's case on Racerman that her read of Stels therefore was bullshit.

The only question now is why Isa hasn't voted Stels and seems to have skepticism at my vote on him, which isn't a bad question, but does not make Isa scum or scummy.