TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win

[Meransiel]

You did actually read my post and note that I was talking about Peregrine and not you, yeah?

From this, I'm getting the distinct impression that you are actually trying to make me look worse, instead of figuring out if I'm scum, and that you're not bothering to read my posts. I KNOW that was at Pere, but I am your second suspect, and I was calling you out for hypocrisy for giving a reason why he was scum, while at the same time not mentioning anything about how, by that same reason, I was less likely scum.

I don't regard OMGUS as a scumtell particularly but I'm surprised that you're engaging in it since I don't think it fits your general playstyle, at least in this game.

I'm not voting him BECAUSE he is voting me, I am voting him for the REASON why he is voting me. Stop defending the guy unless you have actual proof.

@Meransiel:

I didn't really understand what changed your mind so radically between (forgive the bad paraphrasing, this is just how I remember it): "I'm bored and screw you guys I don't want to wait for the VCA, let's lynch and I got the hammer" to "No, Silver is obvtown! We must stop!" I didn't see whatever it was you saw in his posts; to me it just looked like the typical WIFOM things scum throw out before death to me. Was it really just the threat to you?

I have already explained why twice, stop saying that I haven't. It's all about utilitarianism and foresight. A scum that can no longer save himself knows that everything he says will be taken as bullshit the following day. A townie knows that with him, the exact opposite will happen. So YES, by what I was doing, I was protecting myself. But I was also protecting silver, who to me looked like genuinely planning out the next day with knowledge of himself flipping town.

By the way, no lynch is a horrible idea. Neither me, nor David, nor Pere are going to die, so there's no gain from it.

[Meransiel]

Also, you didn't really answer about what you thought of Peregrine (or I missed it, which is possible). Can you answer that now please?

I'm null on Pere.

[Banshee]

You did actually read my post and note that I was talking about Peregrine and not you, yeah?

From this, I'm getting the distinct impression that you are actually trying to make me look worse, instead of figuring out if I'm scum, and that you're not bothering to read my posts. I KNOW that was at Pere, but I am your second suspect, and I was calling you out for hypocrisy for giving a reason why he was scum, while at the same time not mentioning anything about how, by that same reason, I was less likely scum.

The quote you pulled out had nothing to do with you. I had already indicated I didn't want to vote you and that I was afraid I was suffering from confirmation bias in your case, which I KNOW is a problem I have and that I'm trying to work on. What you're insisting I should have done is the equivalent of saying, "Peregrine promised us content and then it was like pulling teeth to get any out of him, but that's not true of YOU, Meransiel, or YOU, Izak, or YOU, David, or YOU, etc, etc..." If I didn't say it about you then it probably doesn't apply to you; you didn't promise content at all so far as I know. Not promising content and then not delivering it is a nulltell quite literally. It is the absence of a tell. It reflects neither poorly nor well on you.

Am I missing your point somehow? What is it you think I should have said about you in this regard?

I'm not voting him BECAUSE he is voting me, I am voting him for the REASON why he is voting me. Stop defending the guy unless you have actual proof.

Fair enough, but it didn't really look like that. I think David X is town, but it's just my opinion.

@Meransiel:

I didn't really understand what changed your mind so radically between (forgive the bad paraphrasing, this is just how I remember it): "I'm bored and screw you guys I don't want to wait for the VCA, let's lynch and I got the hammer" to "No, Silver is obvtown! We must stop!" I didn't see whatever it was you saw in his posts; to me it just looked like the typical WIFOM things scum throw out before death to me. Was it really just the threat to you?

I have already explained why twice,

stop saying that I haven't

. It's all about utilitarianism and foresight. A scum that can no longer save himself knows that everything he says will be taken as bullshit the following day. A townie knows that with him, the exact opposite will happen. So YES, by what I was doing, I was protecting myself. But I was also protecting silver, who to me looked like genuinely planning out the next day with knowledge of himself flipping town.

I said that I didn't understand you, not that you hadn't explained. I NEVER said that you had not explained. I wanted a more detailed explanation. I'd really appreciate it if you didn't misrepresent my statements in this manner if you are not scum, because I DON'T WANT TO MISLYNCH TODAY.

Are you aware that your playstyle has radically changed since Silver made that statement/threat? Like, 180 degrees of difference? For me, it's that change that has made me question my read of you as town, not your refusal to hammer, which I can somewhat understand.

By the way, no lynch is a horrible idea. Neither me, nor David, nor Pere are going to die, so there's no gain from it.

I will take your word for it. I don't see the point of no-lynches anyway because it just gives the scum a free kill imo but I know they're supposed to be necessary sometimes. I'm just not sure when those times are.

I STILL think Peregrine is more likely to be scum than you are. You have that day one town cred that I STILL think is valid and Peregrine doesn't have any of that. He had some good will over the promised VCA but the whole behaviour surrounding it and the constant delays has completely destroyed that for me.

[jasonT1981]

Day 9 vote count 1

DavidX 2 - Meransiel,Vezo
Meransiel 1 - DavidX
PeregrineV 1 - Izak

Not Voting

PeregrineV
Banshee
Nero Cain
TheJakalope

V/LA

No One

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

(expired on 2011-10-06 17:41:24)

till Day 9 Deadline

[Nero Cain]

I'm saying after the fantabulous Silver lynch were he was town, and now we have 8 left alive and an unknown number of mafia, that unsubtantiated cases that are quick and crappy are very much in the mafia's interest.

Silver

needed

to get lynched. He was far to scummy and would have only been a distraction.

Because I don't know yet. I would have said Mysterio, but I guess he was lurking scum, just lurking town.

I have to re-read and look back over things. Don't you do that when you get new information in a game?

Lurker lynching is

slightly

scummy. And I know this question was directed at Izak and not me but....I do HOWEVER I think every player should have a running tabulation of who's scummy and whose not. That way you won't have to run back each time theres a new kill and find a NEW suspect.

vote:Pere

A quick read of his ISO shows that after the Sotty lynch all he's done is stall and argue aginst lynches and NOT taken a single stance against anyone. This very much reeks of scum sitting back.

He's our lynch today.

[Meransiel]

The quote you pulled out had nothing to do with you. I had already indicated I didn't want to vote you and that I was afraid I was suffering from confirmation bias in your case, which I KNOW is a problem I have and that I'm trying to work on. What you're insisting I should have done is the equivalent of saying, "Peregrine promised us content and then it was like pulling teeth to get any out of him, but that's not true of YOU, Meransiel, or YOU, Izak, or YOU, David, or YOU, etc, etc..." If I didn't say it about you then it probably doesn't apply to you; you didn't promise content at all so far as I know. Not promising content and then not delivering it is a nulltell quite literally. It is the absence of a tell. It reflects neither poorly nor well on you.

Here you're making a specification that you didn't make in the first post (I was not comparing the providing of contect required from the two of us. If I didn't clarify that well enough, then I am sorry). Call it taking out of context, but I was pressing on the "Town should WANT to help town win". Because it fit with my decision to not hammer anymore. I am actually going to, after this game ends, go to Mafia Discussion and post a thread named "When Town should vote/hammer someone regardless of their reads on him", giving this game as an example.

Fair enough, but it didn't really look like that.

Can you please explain how so?

I think David X is town, but it's just my opinion.

I know you think that. But since my wincon is "lynch all scum" and not "allow people to have erroneous opinions out of politeness", it's up to me to convince you that he's scum. To start it off, why do you think he's town?

I wanted a more detailed explanation.

This is a vastly different approach compared to how you actually asked me.

Are you aware that your playstyle has radically changed since Silver made that statement/threat? Like, 180 degrees of difference?

Of course. I don't want to get lynched, so I can't stand back while you guys have a vague null-town read on me and do the job yourselves. Especially since there are no more PRs.

For me, it's that change that has made me question my read of you as town, not your refusal to hammer, which I can somewhat understand.

Memory slipping....I can't really say right now if this is a lie or not, but as I recount you called me scummy for not hammering before I started playing differently. I will check and get back to this in a couple minutes.

He had some good will over the promised VCA but the whole behaviour surrounding it and the constant delays has completely destroyed that for me.

Nothing there really makes me think that Pere's scum.

A quick read of his ISO shows that after the Sotty lynch all he's done is stall and argue aginst lynches and NOT taken a single stance against anyone. This very much reeks of scum sitting back.

He's our lynch today.

In contrast, Izak has taken only stances of people and done little else. You regarding that as much better?

[Meransiel]

@Mod:

My second quote should be Beck's, not mine. Some edit pls pls?

Mod: Beck? lol he isn't nor has he been in this game

[Meransiel]

Meh, I want Meransiel to explain why he backed off so hard from Silver. I don't want to vote him without better reasons than I see right now.

Ah, here it is, found it. Would appear somewhere in between sitting on the fence and actually showing suspicion. But most importantly, it is from BEFORE I changed my playstyle.

[Banshee]

Here you're making a specification that you didn't make in the first post (I was not comparing the providing of contect required from the two of us. If I didn't clarify that well enough, then I am sorry). Call it taking out of context, but I was pressing on the "Town should WANT to help town win". Because it fit with my decision to not hammer anymore. I am actually going to, after this game ends, go to Mafia Discussion and post a thread named "When Town should vote/hammer someone regardless of their reads on him", giving this game as an example.

Theoretical discussions aside, you still have not answered what I should have said about you in this case. I was not talking about you. Are you actually suggesting I should have stated that "Town should WANT to help town win, like MERANSIEL does?" RLY? SRSLY? I have no clue what you think I should have said here.

Can you please explain how so?

Because David threw a fit at you which I didn't agree with (ESPECIALLY since it was wrong and I was wrong too) and then you voted him right back. I don't think it's scummy, I just think it's weird given your previous play. If you had a reason other than not liking him accusing you, it wasn't evident to me and I didn't give a lot of credence to the "I don't like the WAY he accused me" because I've heard scum AND town say that before when OMGUSing and I'm sure everyone else has too.

But since my wincon is "lynch all scum" and not "allow people to have erroneous opinions out of politeness", it's up to me to convince you that he's scum. To start it off, why do you think he's town?

You know better than this. I can't prove a negative. You even say so yourself later on about Peregrine, that you don't think that makes him not town. You didn't give awesome evidence that he's town. In short, I don't think David has done anything scummy. He thinks you're scum, I didn't consider you very likely scum until you started misrepresenting me left and right in what looks like a panic.

This is a vastly different approach compared to how you actually asked me.

Meh, I want Meransiel to explain why he backed off so hard from Silver. I don't want to vote him without better reasons than I see right now.

Yes, I can see how you'd find that a horrible horrible accusation that you're scummy and terrible. Because I don't think that's a good enough reason to vote you. Because I wanted you to explain more rather than just sheeping a vote on you I wasn't really agreeing with. HOW is that vastly different?

Memory slipping....I can't really say right now if this is a lie or not, but as I recount you called me scummy for not hammering before I started playing differently. I will check and get back to this in a couple minutes.

One sentence posts with no justification and no intent to give any suddenly shifted to long multi-quote posts BEFORE I said I wanted you to explain. Before that? I was asking you directly and asking for more clarity and really not getting it. So you were wrong here. Just admit it, they can read it for themselves anyway.

And then mischaracterising the entire tone of the post you quoted...

Meh, I want Meransiel to explain why he backed off so hard from Silver. I don't want to vote him without better reasons than I see right now.

That's me saying I don't wanna vote you for not hammering Silver. You GET THAT, right? So how is it fence sitting and expressing suspicion all at once in a lovely scumtastic ball?

And hey, I'm Banshee. As Jason pointed out, Beck isn't even IN this game.

[Nero Cain]

A quick read of his ISO shows that after the Sotty lynch all he's done is stall and argue aginst lynches and NOT taken a single stance against anyone. This very much reeks of scum sitting back.

He's our lynch today.

In contrast, Izak has taken only stances of people and done little else. You regarding that as much better?

Yes. TownIzak taking a stance and scumhunting looks 100x better thn scumPere stalling and NOT scumhunting.

[PeregrineV]

A quick read of his ISO shows that after the Sotty lynch all he's done is stall and argue aginst lynches and NOT taken a single stance against anyone. This very much reeks of scum sitting back.

He's our lynch today.

In contrast, Izak has taken only stances of people and done little else. You regarding that as much better?

Yes. TownIzak taking a stance and scumhunting looks 100x better thn scumPere stalling and NOT scumhunting.

Show me where Izak is scumhunting. Show me his posts where your name can't be substituted for mine.

With 2-3 scum left (27 players, 6 scum is not high), one or two misvotes and it's over. So, if you are town, you will understand my reluctance to vote.

Will read and respond in details to other stuff later.

[Meransiel]

Theoretical discussions aside, you still have not answered what I should have said about you in this case. I was not talking about you. Are you actually suggesting I should have stated that "Town should WANT to help town win, like MERANSIEL does?" RLY? SRSLY? I have no clue what you think I should have said here.

It's not logically wrong, what you said. I was pointing it out as scummy. In that perspective, it's not that you should've said something else. Much like I should have hammered despite my read, you'd have been better off not saying anything.

Can you please explain how so?

Because David threw a fit at you which I didn't agree with (ESPECIALLY since it was wrong and I was wrong too) and then you voted him right back. I don't think it's scummy, I just think it's weird given your previous play. If you had a reason other than not liking him accusing you, it wasn't evident to me and I didn't give a lot of credence to the "I don't like the WAY he accused me" because I've heard scum AND town say that before when OMGUSing and I'm sure everyone else has too.

Ok, reasonable enough. You still think that?

But since my wincon is "lynch all scum" and not "allow people to have erroneous opinions out of politeness", it's up to me to convince you that he's scum. To start it off, why do you think he's town?

You know better than this. I can't prove a negative. You even say so yourself later on about Peregrine, that you don't think that makes him not town. You didn't give awesome evidence that he's town. In short, I don't think David has done anything scummy. He thinks you're scum, I didn't consider you very likely scum until you started misrepresenting me left and right in what looks like a panic.

This is an outrageous downplay of your read on David. You don't think he's "not scummy", you outright state that he's town. Take a look at your own ISO if you're confused about this. Also, I didn't give awesome evidence that pere is scum because I'm null on him.

This is a vastly different approach compared to how you actually asked me.

Meh, I want Meransiel to explain why he backed off so hard from Silver. I don't want to vote him without better reasons than I see right now.

Yes, I can see how you'd find that a horrible horrible accusation that you're scummy and terrible. Because I don't think that's a good enough reason to vote you. Because I wanted you to explain more rather than just sheeping a vote on you I wasn't really agreeing with. HOW is that vastly different?

Nope, "I want player x to explain why y" and "I want player x to explain in more detail why y" are vastly different. The first implies that player x is making unfounded accusations, therefore blame is thrown on him, whereas the second implies that the questioner does not follow player x' line of thought, which means nobody is to blame.

That's me saying I don't wanna vote you for not hammering Silver. You GET THAT, right? So how is it fence sitting and expressing suspicion all at once in a lovely scumtastic ball?

Wait, so saying that whether you will vote or not vote someone depends on how he responds to a question, then not liking the answer, then STILL not voting said person is NOT fencesitting? Either I've been living under a rock, or you're just the kind of person who never admits being wrong. Cause screaming "misrepresentation! mischaracterisation! panic!" is much, MUCH easier.

It hurts me that you are obvtown, really. I mean, the only reason why I don't simply give up and let you lynch me just to see how wrong and convoluted you've been after the flip is that there must be SOMEONE there opposing a pere lynch.

And hey, I'm Banshee. As Jason pointed out, Beck isn't even IN this game.

Obvious typo is obvious and not relevant to the discussion.

[Meransiel]

A quick read of his ISO shows that after the Sotty lynch all he's done is stall and argue aginst lynches and NOT taken a single stance against anyone. This very much reeks of scum sitting back.

He's our lynch today.

In contrast, Izak has taken only stances of people and done little else. You regarding that as much better?

Yes. TownIzak taking a stance and scumhunting looks 100x better thn scumPere stalling and NOT scumhunting.

I can hardly see Izak as actually, properly scumhunting.

[Banshee]

I don't think not hammering was scummy. I stand by that.

You're right that I can't justify my town reads on Izak or David as anything but gut, but I do feel like they see things the same way I do and that probably does make me think they're town.

Wait, so saying that whether you will vote or not vote someone depends on how he responds to a question, then not liking the answer, then STILL not voting said person is NOT fencesitting? Either I've been living under a rock, or you're just the kind of person who never admits being wrong. Cause screaming "misrepresentation! mischaracterisation! panic!" is much, MUCH easier.

You are misrepresenting me even in this very quote, and I'm about to show you exactly how. And yeah, I already admitted to confirmation bias, but I think you've completely misunderstood (deliberately or otherwise) what I said in the quote you keep throwing up like it proves something. Oh, and can you please point me to where I said that my vote depended on your answer to that question?

I do not understand how you can really misunderstand my intent in that quote so completely, but for clarification, here is what I was thinking at the time (as best that I can recall).

Meh, I want Meransiel to explain why he backed off so hard from Silver.

I don't like this whole thing blowing up because I think both David and Meransiel are town and if they blow up at each other then we'll never figure this out. So Meransiel needs to explain this better so we don't have a stupid town-town argument.

I don't want to vote him without better reasons than I see right now.

If this Silver no-hammer thing is all you have then that isn't good enough. I still think he's town. I want to talk about Peregrine because I think HE is scum. And I think he's probably laughing at us right now.

So you have a huge issue with me saying that, which is how I think ANY REASONABLE person would have interpreted it? (If I'm wrong, I want to hear about it, so opinions are welcome.)

[izakthegoomba]

Meran, Pere... Just because I don't make massive posts about why people are scum and barrage them with questions every five minutes, it doesn't mean I'm not participating. On multiple occasions I've been quite vocal about who is scum, I've made my reads clear, and I've participated in discussion whenever I have something worth saying. I know I'm far from perfect, but I really don't know what you think I've done wrong.

[PeregrineV]

Because we've had two Vengefuls, and Silver's record for martyrdom would make me think twice about bomb possibilities. Also, at this late stage, fears of Silver being taken seriously could factor into it.

So you're thinking Meran is thinking a third vengeful and backed off? And what "record for martyrdom"? Silver has only died once this game, and none before now.
Why would we not take Silver seriously? He sounded sincere enough, and we have time.

And according to scum votes, Andrew voted Silver 36% of the time, Shotty voted Silver 24% of the time, and Oversoul voted Silver 41% of the time. He was either THE top vote of scum, or they weren't voting.

[David Xanatos]

Silver has meta for pulling the martyr card, and he did it on D1 too. That plays well for a Vengeful.

And believe me, when Fourseen went into a nosedive, for a time I was entertaining the notion of another vengeful.

[PeregrineV]

I was sure Silver was scum based on the things around Shotty and his overall play, so I'm sort of stuck right now.

From the opposite perspective, here are the things I think I know:

• Izak is town. I'm almost sure of this.
  Vezok is town based on his post right after Magna got killed. I don't think that was deliberate.
  David seems really town to me too.

That's four town (including me) that I am not voting for today and that I am sure aren't scum. I think there is probably a cult-flavoured vig on the scum side, though. That would come up non-goon and would explain the extra kills. I don't understand why we haven't seen any lately though.

My main suspicions are between Peregrine as this vig (Shotty trying to be clever?) and Meransiel because I am afraid I'm suffering from confirmation bias because I was so sure Meransiel wasn't scum based on behaviour at the start of the game. More or less null reads on Nero Cain and TheJakalope, though I agreed with Nero's logic a lot around the Silver issue which makes him seem townier to me.

Meh, I want Meransiel to explain why he backed off so hard from Silver. I don't want to vote him without better reasons than I see right now.

Peregrine is my top suspicion. I haven't liked the minimal posting style, the delays on promised material and the general attitude. Town should WANT to help town win, not act like they're doing us a big favour by offering content. I don't really know how to do a VCA or I'd do one for myself.

Actually, that just pinpointed what was bothering me. Peregrine isn't doing a VCA for himself to try to figure things out, he's doing one as a big favour for us. Why? I would be doing it for myself and THEN sharing it with others to try to figure things out; Peregrine is acting as if he's not even interested in figuring them out for himself, but only in helping us. That's plain weird to me.

I'm not voting him right now, but that's where my vote would land if I were going to vote right now.

One post is used to build a case, not determine alignment.

Also, the vote count analysis is for me. But, since I hope other town members can use it, I posted it. It is in Excel, but if they doesn't work I'll post the data in PDF.

The point is that it is for me, and I mentioned it so we wouldn't be so quick to lynch. I find that scum gets jittery near the endgame and likes to keep the fast day1 pace of lynch and go. This of course leads to their win. Town wants to slow it down and talk.

[Banshee]

The point is that it is for me, and I mentioned it so we wouldn't be so quick to lynch. I find that scum gets jittery near the endgame and likes to keep the fast day1 pace of lynch and go. This of course leads to their win. Town wants to slow it down and talk.

The last line appeals to me. I'd love to slow it down and talk, hence my lack of vote during this day. My problem with YOU and with several other people is that you want to slow it down, but you DON'T want to talk. You want others to talk while you lurk and don't post and take a few days off to think things over and make a VCA that no one else can understand and that you now say is just for your own use so it doesn't matter if we don't understand it.

That's not town wanting to slow it down and talk. That's [undefined] wanting to slow it down and lurk.

I see a pretty big difference.

[Banshee]

and speaking of which,

@MOD:

Can you please prod TheJakalope?

[izakthegoomba]

I've got no problem with taking our time if we're putting the time to good use. The problem comes when people (read: you) want to drag Days out with no reason.

[PeregrineV]

I don't really know how to do a VCA or I'd do one for myself.

It's not hard, but is also not a science.

It's about looking at behavior patterns, and is only one tool to be combined with all others.

For example, until yesterday, there were 46 vote counts throughout the game.

Player	Votes on Silver	Percent of votes
10) Nero Cain	27	59%
26) Oversoul	13	41%
16) andrew94	10	36%
1) Meransiel	14	30%
12) drmyshottyizsik	9	24%
8) Banshee	5	11%
19) TheJakalope	5	11%
17) izakthegoomba	3	7%
2) vezokpiraka	3	7%
11) David Xanatos	0	0%
4) PeregrineV	0	0%

So, based on just one aspect, the heavy amounts of scum spending a lot of time voting Silver, I could conclude Nero and Meran were most likely scum, since that's where a lot of their votes are also.
However, since I haven't looked at the dead town percentage who voted Silver, it's not a true statement. But, I would look and compare, and take it into account with other game play and behavior.

A simple version would be to look at the day1 vote count that lynched Zinger:

Day 1 Vote count 17

Zinger

14 - Vezo,

Mysterio, Junpei, Hipaddict

, Izak,

Pappum,, KillerJester,

DavidX,

Vollkan,Rainbow,Cherve,Pinky

, Banshee,

Shotty

. (Lynch)

Silver

6 -

Oversoul

, Nero, Mera ,

Zinger

,

CHKBallin

,

Andrew

Hipaddict

1 -

PeregrineV

Izak 1 -

ZeL1nk

,

Andrew

1 -

THAdmiral

Nero 1 -

Silver

Pappums

1 -

MOI

Not Voting: 2 -

Pine, Rodion

.

Looking at it, you have to ask yourself, was Shotty the only scum who wanted to lynch Zinger? Or were there more than on his lynch?
Is it reasonable to assume that two scum were voting Silver, but is there more?

You would use this to determine who to look for, and their actual voting posts, and everything else.

[PeregrineV]

@Peregrine:

Did you ever complete the VCA? Do you feel you learned anything useful from it, if so?

Completed data collection, but still doing the analyze part. One aspect is knowing what to look for. Since I don't know, I'm guessing three scum remaining.

But, it helps if others are able to use the data, and that's the reason I posted it.

[TheJakalope]

I'm here. Just not sure what to think of everything. I was pretty confident Peregrine was scum but this day has made me not so sure. VCA's bug me.. Ugh.

[PeregrineV]

Stopped at 3197- I have to go now. Will pick it up later.