New York 138: OxyMoron Mafia :: Game Over!

[David Xanatos]

I doubt there's an odd-night Vig, and Cops rarely flake. In my experience, the most common flake is a Vanilla or either faction. Followed by Doc.

Even-Night could be as simple as not wanting to have a random shot fired N1, when the chances of hitting Town are highest.

[Oversoul]

David, stop trying to out guess the mod and make broad assumptions. Leaving Lewarcher at this moment in the game is the best mce for town. I don't want to lynch another town PR like yesterday. Lewarcher alive gives WIFOM to the mafia. If we lynch him, I am surely going to die tonight.

Otolia is actually scummy especially with his fail hammer and his horrible play today. If Lew isn't dead tomorrow, and I am we can safely assume that he is more likely mafia.

I shouldn't have even made the claim. >_> I have such bad foresight.

[David Xanatos]

There's likely a Doc or JK around. Pray for Doc, so you can investigate again. Regardless, this is a normal, more than one false positive would come under some inspection from the review group I feel. Yes, it's outguessing, but this isn't a bastard-mod or a Theme, so by looking at the Normal guidelines you can draw some semi-reasonable conclusions.

[fatlikepig]

I had no idea that it's non-standard to not get a claim on D2. I don't have that much (well, any at all really) experience with large setups, so you'll have to pardon the newbie mistake.

I have a feeling that I'm not going to get anywhere with this scumslip business. I'm now having to argue from the point of "Well, if that was actually what I had meant to say, then I would thought x", which I'm not really able to do, since I get confused trying to make up some perspective I have to look from.

Do what you will with it, keep in mind that I maintain that it was a simple mistake in wording.

[ObliviousDruidMuncher]

@Oversoul: The next replacement will be for Lewarcher, seeing as how he/she has been absent since the beginning of the game. However, I can't FIND another replacement. I've posted on two other websites and several times in the Replacement Thread, but no luck. Does anyone know of anybody that can replace in?

[Ironhead]

Unless you're talking about scum getting overexcited and just dropping it into their post by accident, which just seems silly.

I don't think this is silly at all. I think this is how most scumslips occur.

What David Xanatos identified as a scumslip didn't stand out to me on first reading, and I probably wouldn't have thought twice. But your reaction is as scummy as anything else so far:

I have a feeling that I'm not going to get anywhere with this scumslip business. I'm now having to argue from the point of "Well, if that was actually what I had meant to say, then I would thought x", which I'm not really able to do, since I get confused trying to make up some perspective I have to look from.

Do what you will with it, keep in mind that I maintain that it was a simple mistake in wording.

This is worse! I expect a townie to defend himself, especially if he legitimately believes that the case on him is weak. Your "no contest" plea looks like you're waiting for the whole thing to blow over and everyone to forget.

Coincidentally, you also meet my criteria for having NOT VOTED lewarcher when it mattered. You also hopped on Otolia's bandwagon after bvoigt and I ginned it up. You, sir, are scum.

lewarcher, Otolia, fatlikepig -- there are multiple scum in this group.

David, stop trying to out guess the mod and make broad assumptions. Leaving Lewarcher at this moment in the game is the best mce for town. I don't want to lynch another town PR like yesterday. Lewarcher alive gives WIFOM to the mafia. If we lynch him, I am surely going to die tonight.

Otolia is actually scummy especially with his fail hammer and his horrible play today. If Lew isn't dead tomorrow, and I am we can safely assume that he is more likely mafia.

I shouldn't have even made the claim. >_> I have such bad foresight.

[Ironhead]

EBWOP: Meant to comment on Oversoul's post as well.

The gist of my comment was that I thought lewarcher was the better lynch today, to confirm Oversoul as town and support the fatlikepig-scum case.

[fatlikepig]

This is worse! I expect a townie to defend himself, especially if he legitimately believes that the case on him is weak. Your "no contest" plea looks like you're waiting for the whole thing to blow over and everyone to forget.

How on earth do you expect me to defend myself when the case being leveled against me is "Hey, you said x when you really wanted to say y, but just for the sake of things, can you just pretend you wanted to say x instead?"? I'd defend myself if I know that something I said could be taken as a scumslip, but there's no scumslip to defend.

Coincidentally, you also meet my criteria for having NOT VOTED lewarcher when it mattered. You also hopped on Otolia's bandwagon after bvoigt and I ginned it up. You, sir, are scum.

You know, hopped on it and also added to it (or at least attempted to add to it) by questioning Otolia on stuff that hadn't been brought up.

So did redFF, by the way. Are you going to ask him about it too?

How does lynching lewarcher strengthen your case on me?

[Ironhead]

This is worse! I expect a townie to defend himself, especially if he legitimately believes that the case on him is weak. Your "no contest" plea looks like you're waiting for the whole thing to blow over and everyone to forget.

How on earth do you expect me to defend myself when the case being leveled against me is "Hey, you said x when you really wanted to say y, but just for the sake of things, can you just pretend you wanted to say x instead?"? I'd defend myself if I know that something I said could be taken as a scumslip, but there's no scumslip to defend.

But that is not the case against you! No one is saying "can you just pretend you wanted to say x instead?" By claiming that this is the case against you, you are strawmanning.

Scum.

You know, hopped on it and also added to it (or at least attempted to add to it) by questioning Otolia on stuff that hadn't been brought up.

So did redFF, by the way. Are you going to ask him about it too?

How does lynching lewarcher strengthen your case on me?

Scum, scum, and more scum. I'm not prosecuting redFF because he didn't dissemble under pressure of a suggested scumslip. If lewarcher flips scum, that would support the case I built in #1236 and #1238. This supports your scumminess.

[fatlikepig]

But that is not the case against you! No one is saying "can you just pretend you wanted to say x instead?" By claiming that this is the case against you, you are strawmanning.

So what, pray tell, is the case on me?

[Otolia]

David, stop trying to out guess the mod and make broad assumptions. Leaving Lewarcher at this moment in the game is the best mce for town. I don't want to lynch another town PR like yesterday. Lewarcher alive gives WIFOM to the mafia. If we lynch him, I am surely going to die tonight.

Otolia is actually scummy especially with his fail hammer and his horrible play today. If Lew isn't dead tomorrow, and I am we can safely assume that he is more likely mafia.

I shouldn't have even made the claim. >_> I have such bad foresight.

I didn't failhammer, I made the wisest decision yesterday, and it has absolutely nothing to do with alignment. Maybe you will understand that one day. Now you vote me because I was the only one with balls on this game. You promised something and I said I wanted to know what it was, I never asked for your role which you foolishly felt like claiming. If you are willing to see that as scummy that's your call. You softclaimed like a newbie and then say I play horribly ... That's quite the hypocrisy !

Let me remind you, that cop don't normally have guns (because they have no kill possibilities) and that if you spotted someone with a gun, it's either a SK, a Vig or a scum. The probability of another Vig is low except a Day-Vig with limited shot (it's a big game), a SK is probable because it's a big game and there is a gunsmith and in all likelyhood, Lewarcher is scum.
VOTE: Lewarcher

[Xeras]

Heh. I got prodded.

Anyway, I guess I will

Vote: Lewarcher

Though, also keep in mind, the so called gunsmith may be bussing his inactive partner for towncred.

[David Xanatos]

Cops and Role-Cops have guns. The chance of a Cop and a Gunsmith though is rather small in my opinion..

[David Xanatos]

Also, SKs don't flag to Gunsmiths. That's the point of the Gunsmith, doesn't flag on the SK, and in my experience, usually DOES flag on a Godfather.

[redFF]

i
don't
want
to
lynch
another
blue
wait
for
night
2

[Ironhead]

But that is not the case against you! No one is saying "can you just pretend you wanted to say x instead?" By claiming that this is the case against you, you are strawmanning.

So what, pray tell, is the case on me?

In #1240, you accidentally mentioned the possibility of

outing

a PR (instead of

lynching

a PR). A minor slip perhaps, and one that few players would have seen anyway. But David Xanatos -- who deserves much town-cred for this catch, if you do flip scum -- questioned you on it. Your reaction to his line of questioning was to panic and dissemble, under very little pressure from him:

Just FTR, I realise that outing and lynching are different terms. It was an easy mistake for me to make, considering I was thinking about Oversoul outing himself, the fact that another PR may have been outed, etc.

...

I get the fact that scum want to out PRs, but I don't see how that applies in that case, even if we are to take it as being what I meant to say. Unless you're talking about scum getting overexcited and just dropping it into their post by accident, which just seems silly.

Your first response is to suggest it was an "easy mistake" (presumably you meant to imply that it was an easy mistake for townies to make as well) and then you dismiss it with an Appeal to Ridicule ("...just seems silly."). Appeal to Ridicule is an Appeal to Emotion. AtE is a scumtell.

I have a feeling that I'm not going to get anywhere with this scumslip business. I'm now having to argue from the point of "Well, if that was actually what I had meant to say, then I would thought x", which I'm not really able to do, since I get confused trying to make up some perspective I have to look from.

Do what you will with it, keep in mind that I maintain that it was a simple mistake in wording.

More AtE. Preemptive surrender looks scummy -- a townie would keep fighting the accusation, using logic to rebut the case (because, if you were a townie, the logic would exist as you would know that you aren't scum; scum, on the other hand, cannot rely on logic because the accusation is true).

Also, I didn't catch this on my first read:

"...I get confused trying to make up some perspective I have to look from."

Come again? Which role has to make up a perspective to look from? This seems like a much more damning scum-slip (as scum have to make up the perspective of a townie during the day).

This is worse! I expect a townie to defend himself, especially if he legitimately believes that the case on him is weak. Your "no contest" plea looks like you're waiting for the whole thing to blow over and everyone to forget.

How on earth do you expect me to defend myself when the case being leveled against me is "Hey, you said x when you really wanted to say y, but just for the sake of things, can you just pretend you wanted to say x instead?"? I'd defend myself if I know that something I said could be taken as a scumslip, but there's no scumslip to defend.

I've already noted the strawman. Scum-tell.

Coincidentally, you also meet my criteria for having NOT VOTED lewarcher when it mattered. You also hopped on Otolia's bandwagon after bvoigt and I ginned it up. You, sir, are scum.

You know, hopped on it and also added to it (or at least attempted to add to it) by questioning Otolia on stuff that hadn't been brought up.

So did redFF, by the way. Are you going to ask him about it too?

How does lynching lewarcher strengthen your case on me?

Deflection. Trying to get us to chase redFF instead of him.

And that's just the case built on your scum-slip. There's also the problem of your voting behavior -- redFF and I unwittingly created an alternate bandwagon to the lewarcher wagon, and you hopped on it before Oversoul claimed gunsmith. If lewarcher flips scum, it appears you wanted to derail his wagon so you could lynch Otolia instead.

And even after Oversoul claimed, you still espouse the idea of voting someone else:

The Gunsmith isn't a guilty though. Lew could be scum, but he could also be cop/vig/another gunsmith/some other PR with a gun, and given that he hasn't posted, there's no way to tell either way. Considering we've already lynched Johhog, I'm quite wary of lynching another important PR today. Though I can see that the lynching to confirm Oversoul / possibly hit scum could be good for us.

Oversoul shows a little prevarication in #1227, and you egg him on. So who's it going to be: lewarcher or Otolia? At this point, I'm pretty confident that one of these two is scum; if lewarcher is scum, then you are his partner. If Otolia is scum, you get zero town-cred for hopping on his bandwagon unless lewarcher flips town. And it's possible (even if the odds are unlikely) that both lewarcher and Otolia are scum; in which case you are still scum.

[projectmatt]

So, Lewaracher is today's lynch. I have a few questions for Oversoul though.

@Oversoul:

Why did you choose to investigate Lewaracher over any of the active players? Now, let's assume that Lewac was simply non-existent. Who, of all of these users would you investigate next?

[Hoppster]

i
don't
want
to
lynch
another
blue
wait
for
night
2

???

V/LA until Friday

[Oversoul]

To be totally honest, I kind of cheated with the Lew investigation. I saw him post something in one of the discussion forums about how he dislikes being mafia because of the work involved and he switched out immediately of this game so I thought I would take a chance at it.

I am probably going to investigate either Empking or DavidX tonight.

[David Xanatos]

Investigate me please. I'd rather like to be confirmed.

[fatlikepig]

Hey Oversoul, you should investigate me. I'd like to prove Ironhead wrong, y'know?

So, Ironhead, I'd like you to keep in mind that I've been MAINTAINING THAT I SIMPLY USED THE WRONG WORD FROM THE GET-GO. I haven't been able to defend myself because I have nothing to defend myself /with/ - I made a mistake with my word usage because I had other things going on in my head, that's it. I'd love to be able to tell you why that's not a scumslip, but really all it boils down to is "I didn't mean to say that." Which is not much to work with.

and then you dismiss it with an Appeal to Ridicule ("...just seems silly."). Appeal to Ridicule is an Appeal to Emotion. AtE is a scumtell.

You're correct in saying that I meant that it was a mistake that townies could make (and then go on to explain why I happened to make that very mistake). I didn't mean to dismiss /that/, I meant to question the idea that scum would accidentally slip just because they get a hard-on from having the choice of 2 PRs to kill at night. I suppose that's why legit scumslips (

N.B. Legit

) rarely happen, because quite frankly, I find that kind of odd.

More AtE. Preemptive surrender looks scummy -- a townie would keep fighting the accusation, using logic to rebut the case (because, if you were a townie, the logic would exist as you would know that you aren't scum; scum, on the other hand, cannot rely on logic because the accusation is true).

I've already explained why I can't defend myself with any more than "that's not what I meant to say". What more do you want from me?

Also, I didn't catch this on my first read: "...I get confused trying to make up some perspective I have to look from." Come again? Which role has to make up a perspective to look from? This seems like a much more damning scum-slip (as scum have to make up the perspective of a townie during the day).

I felt like I was being asked to defend myself from the perspective of, "Well, if you had meant to say x, then why is it still not a scumslip?".

Deflection. Trying to get us to chase redFF instead of him.

No, I feel that's a genuine inconsistency. redFF was suspicious to a lot of people yesterday, he did the same thing as me, and yet you simply ignored it.

And that's just the case built on your scum-slip. There's also the problem of your voting behavior -- redFF and I unwittingly created an alternate bandwagon to the lewarcher wagon, and you hopped on it before Oversoul claimed gunsmith. If lewarcher flips scum, it appears you wanted to derail his wagon so you could lynch Otolia instead.

You know, when I joined the BW before redFF, mmkay

So, for the final time

HOPPING ON A BANDWAGON THAT HAS REASONING BEHIND IT IS A REASONABLE THING TO DO AS TOWN

AVOIDING A BANDWAGON THAT HAD NOTHING BEHIND IT IS A REASONABLE THING TO DO AS TOWN

WAITING UNTIL OVERSOUL GAVE HIS EVIDENCE BEFORE SWITCHING YOUR VOTE OVER IS A REASONABLE THING TO DO

EXCCCCUUUUUSE ME IF I WANT TO VOTE FOR PEOPLE I FIND SCUMMY

Oversoul shows a little prevarication in #1227, and you egg him on.

Well, I'm sorry if I also happen to be worried about lynching another PR today.

[projectmatt]

Alright, David and Oversoul are town. I don't think Oversoul is bussing, and if David didn't towntell before he towntold now. redFF is very easily a scum, so is Ironhead or Secret Project. We'll see.

[ObliviousDruidMuncher]

hiplop replaces lewarcher82.

[ObliviousDruidMuncher]

Day 2 Vote Totals

I

f there is a mistake, point it out.

Last post seen:

projectmatt

, page 51.

[8]hiplop:

Empking, Foolish Fool, Hoppster, Ironhead, fatlikepig, David Xanatos, Otolia, Xeras [L-2]

[3]Otolia:

bvoigt, Oversoul, redFF [L-7]

[1]Ironhead:

redFF [L-9]

[1]evilpacman18:

mastin2 [L-9]

Prods:

mastin2
Foolish Fool

Great job on the activity lately, guys! I'm impressed.

People who still need to be replaced:
Lady Lambadelta
Lord Chronos

With 18 alive, it takes 10 to lynch. The deadline for Night 1 is September 14th, 2011 at 11:59 ET.

[Empking]

Hip:
1. Sorry
2. Claim as soon as you read this. We don't want it to stall again.