TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win

[ThAdmiral]

/confirm

[ThAdmiral]

vote: andrew

is

always

scum in the games I'm (and always wins...). Must kill with fire now!

[ThAdmiral]

1. I have never, ever, ever seen a townie label their vote as being in RVS. Have you ever done this before? Have you even seen other townies do this before?

What? Yes, of course.

I never said "fullclaim now". I said: "if you're really going to pursue this speedlynch idea over his unfortunate comment regarding the mass nameclaim, at least give him the opportunity to full claim".

Well actually you said: "I don't think his request warrants a speedlynch, though (I don't know whether people are serious about it or it is just part of the jokevote stage),

but a pressure for him to fullclaim seems good

" which is a poor choice of words. If you really did mean what you say above you should have said something like: "but a pressure for him to fullclaim would be better".

It's ok though, I believe that it was an honest mistake. You sound genuine, and I don't think you are scum.

[ThAdmiral]

OverSoul, you obviously believe the vig claim. Tonight, I'm going to shoot you, protect Pinky and the Brain, and investigate TheAdmiral, do you believe that too?

I do. Sounds reasonable enough...

[ThAdmiral]

Sorry Nero but your /confirm - JUMP ON WAGGON doesn't sit well.

I actually liked it. He didn't cop out and random vote, he actually voted someone for with reasonable cause.
Bandwaggoning isn't always a bad thing anyway.

Crap, alt slipped.

This is totally unrelated to the game so I’m segregating it at the top –

Are you really telling me you have been here 1.5 months and felt the need to already have an Alt?]

I don't see what this has to do with anything.

I'm liking killerjester. Post 161 seems genuine.

Vifam post 163 is terrible. Essentially: "ok I admit I'm scummy, but these guys are MORE scummy aren't they? (pls don't lynch me)"

vote: vifam

He's never played on this site before. Incidentally, the 'Newbie elevator' basically describes a significant proportion of day one mislynches on this site, so it's something to be aware of. If a newbie does something scummy early, then starts flipping his shit, raising the temperature is only going to cause him to flip his shit more.

I'm sure this happens, but more often than not someone (like yourself), will point out this fact before a newbie ends up getting lynched - and then they DON'T get lynched. We have a pretty reasonable player base here IMO and we generally don't just jump on the first thing that comes along blindly and ride it all the way to the end. I think one of the main strengths of mafiascum is how often a playing group will question their own actions.

Vifam is dodgy is all hell in my book, but I'm waiting on her mounting even a vague defense before I drop a vote on her. Jily.. I honestly don't know. My gut says confused town, but my head says suspicious. My main thought is Vifam though..

...this is where you vote for vifam.
When you are thinking ^ that ^ you vote for the person in question.

Also, ThAdmiral:

1. I have never, ever, ever seen a townie label their vote as being in RVS. Have you ever done this before? Have you even seen other townies do this before?

What? Yes, of course.

I would like links to this as well, if you wouldnt mind.

I

know

I've seen it. I'm not sure where. Can you just assume I'm not lying.

[ThAdmiral]

3 - How common are mafia busdrivers here? Zelink said he'd vig Zinger, should we be worried that a mafia busdriver redirects the kill into someone else? I'm still confused as to whether Zelink made a joke when he claimed vig or not and his "sarcasm" was only present when he replied to Oversoul's weird post (Oversoul asked the claimed vig to protect someone - I think it was simply a poor phrasing and he actually asked the doc to protect the vig - or the person the vig promised to kill). Also, if the vig claim is serious, Zelink, would you also name claim so we test the theory on the randomness of roles (a theory you mentioned yourself in #122)?

Busdriver is a very rare role. I've only seen it in one game and that was specifically a busdriver game. Furthermore all the busdrivers were town (iirc). So I have never seen a mafia busdriver and I wouldn't expect to for exactly the reason you talk about i.e. that it could prove exceptionally powerful for the scum if a vig claims.

6 - Are vezok and Andew common targets of RVS wagons? Why?

Vezok is. Rvs wagons and the aforementioned policy lynch wagons. I have never seen vezok

actually

get policy lynched, but from what pappum stated earlier he apparently has been.
Andrew used to be but I don't think so much any more.

[ThAdmiral]

You guys...I am sooo sorry, but I really need to start cutting the crap out of my life

Mafiascum is crap?!

Admiral, I have voted for Vifam. I wanted to give her time to mount a more substantial and logical defense, but enough time has passed that it's even more suspicious.

Yeah, but there is no harm in saying you are suspicious of someone -> voting them -> and then if they mount a good defense unvoting them. That's how the system works.
You have a vote, it's an indication of who you are suspicious of at any given time, you may as well use it. I am of the philosophy that you should ALWAYS have your vote on

someone

.

[ThAdmiral]

...and so we wait to hear from vifam...

[ThAdmiral]

@ killerjester: from your language it seems like you think there is no chance that vifam is scum. Is this correct?

[ThAdmiral]

@ easjo: I don't find vote-jumping to be a scumtell especially if the reasons are genuine. In any case if you are town you shouldn't be worried about coming off wishy-washy unless you don't believe your own reads. It is ideal if everyone is always voting as in this situation scum are less able to fly under the radar as they constantly need to take a stand. Also more votes equals more information which is always good. And one should always, ALWAYS, be voting someone at the end of the day.

[ThAdmiral]

@ killerjester: from your language it seems like you think there is no chance that vifam is scum. Is this correct?

No, sorry if it came off that way. I was actually quite conflicted about Vifam's alignment back around my #177 post. It was enough uncertainty, in my opinion, to withdraw my vote.

Ok, thanks for clearing that up.

We cannot bandwagon more than one target at a time. That's simply not how the game works.

I disagree. In fact I believe competing wagons is the ideal situation for town. Admittedly this normally happens towards the end of a day and not so much at the start.

@ chkballin: good case on dx. He's definitely shot up my scum reads list after that.
I don't really see the 3isFrench one though. By the same token why would scum lie if they could reasonably get away with "oops, my bad"?

@ leonshade: can I haz links to some of your other games pls?

Am I the only one that read easjo's #269 and saw "I am scum" repeated about 50 times?

Pretty sure it doesn't say that, bro.
Also getting pretty defensive about silverbullets comments, aren't we?

It begs the question though: why are you not voting easjo?

Well said.

[ThAdmiral]

unvote

vote: davidxanatos

more later.

[ThAdmiral]

@leonshade: can I haz links to some of your other games pls?

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=14413
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=14959

The first one is my very first game from a year ago, the second one is a game I had to replace out of early on. Other than those two, I don't have normal completed games to link to. I do have a few finished marathon games, which I will link to if requested.

Thanks, will check them out. Obviously since it is only two games and you replaced out in one it is not a whole lot to go off, but it might help.

L-2 is not L-1, but that's nitpicking I guess.

In fact I would argue you shouldn't claim until -1 AND someone has expressed willingness to hammer.

But scum claim PRs just as often as town, if not more, right? Does it really mean anything?

Tracker is very hard to fake. He could be a scum tracker, but he would still be providing town with tracking information.
Right now he's got the benefit of the doubt though.

another vifam vote probably from his other head, but it shows that he is BWing for the sake of sticking with the crowd. This was right after the next wave of vifam votes. It also shows that the two heads aren't sharing their reads and scumtells, possibly because they don't need to scumhunt because they are in fact scum.

I like this angle.

Meransiel's lurking is null, it doesn't play towards town or scum's win-con (objectively speaking). It's anti-town, it's not 'scummy'.

Bingo.
That being said...

@ meransiel: when did decide not to participate day 1? Were you lynched a few times? If so the answer isn't to abstain, it's to get better at surviving. What you're doing is the cheap, easy, cowardly way out. You're basically throwing the towel in and saying: "I'm not good enough, so I'm not going to even bother".

[ThAdmiral]

@ volkan: I know you've addressed this before in another game but how does your number system deal with lurkers? They wouldn't get points as they aren't saying anything.

[ThAdmiral]

Oh yeah also ThAdmiral, just to respond to that one bit in your post, waiting for L-1 would have been dangerous. I knew that I was tracker and that there is no way this BW was going tot turn around just because I replaced in. People were going v/la and it was very close to a lynch.

I generally give replacements who are being heavily bandwagoned a bit of leeway. I'm not sure about everyone else though.

@Junpei, it's Day 1. Gimme a break. I see nothing that isn't just people jumping to conclusions or circumstantial.

Day 1 cases are almost always a flop. All that really matters is that we keep people talking so there is something to look back at during the following days.

I used to be like you and think day 1 was basically useless. I know think it is the most important day in a mafia game (apart from lylo).

Zlinger what you're doing is 100% anti-town. We are wasting energy/posts on you and that is bad. I won't take role-excuses for an answer as it seems like a really cheap way to get out of jail free. Could someone please confirm that there is a likely mechanic that implies that what Zlinger is doing is smart? If there is then Zlinger is an idiot or mafia for softclaiming it. If not than Zlinger is mafia or we have an unlikely scenario.

This.
And to answer your question: no, there is no role that would require him to be

somewhat

suspected. Him softclaiming is him being an idiot, and that applies if he's town or scum.

@ mod: can we get meransiel replaced for not playing to their win condition?

Zinger townslipped. He's town.

I think I see what you are talking about, but I don't necessarily agree. I don't think the mod confirmed one way or the other.

[ThAdmiral]

@ vezok: yeah zinger too.

[ThAdmiral]

@Vezok and ThAdmiral, rather presumptuous of both of you to think you know what my win condition is.

Not participating in the game goes against any win condition.
Unless not-participating is your win condition... But it's not.

[ThAdmiral]

You could replace Pine if you wanted. Or Glowball. Or 4 other people. But nooo, I'm easy meat.

They haven't said they are not participating on purpose.

[ThAdmiral]

I really doubt a mafia would make himself public enemy number 1 they way Meransiel seems to be. Honestly, if he says he'll become active Day 2; let's just take his word for now and actually contribute on scumhunting. We're just helping mafia by harassing someone over such a small deal.

It's not like we can't pester meransiel while also scumhunting. It's called multitasking.

(by the way if you hadn't noticed the pestering is working!)

@ davidxanatos: your response is adequate to bump you off the top of my scumlist

unvote

vote: junpei

3) Yes, it's a wifom tactic. Rather smart as it keeps possible SKs off of you and the town off of you. This creates a case where you are immune to night and day kills and no one gets suspicious. Also note how he doesn't specify a time when he'll win. He says that he could win soon or it could take a longer time, he even offers the possibility that he'll live to LYLO. Does that not seem odd to you?

Bullshit. Do you actually believe this?
No scum is going to claim that - there is 0% chance he is going to survive until lylo.

Please stop being stupid, third party CAN be useful to us even if he IS lying and has a killing role... I HIGHLY doubt the game would end if he does fulfill his wincon so again... stop being stupid and move on to the bigger problem which is PINE... who has a glorious total of 2 posts in this game yet CONTINUES to post in others.

Really?
PINE!! GET IN HARR!!!!

I do not like the way that Junpei has been pushing the zinger wagon. Someone claiming that they are not town is obviously going to get people's attention, and I feel like zinger would be an easy lynch for scum. I especially dont like the way Junpei has claimed that Zinger "doesnt deserve to win". This has no rational reasoning behind it, and is more of an AtE than a decent argument why Zinger should be lynched.

This.

that's not neutral, that's bad for everyone.. :/

Wait, yes? That

would

make it neutral as it's the same for everyone!

[ThAdmiral]

vezokpiraka: Meransiel's play annoys me, it's logically perpendicular to what we consider normal play. It irks me so much, and I know I'm the only one.

I'll assume you mean "

not

the only one", but look at meran now: he's contributing! Our pestering worked and now I'm more or less cool with him.

[ThAdmiral]

Just verifying, the tracker claim means nothing to you, Thad?

What's your read on izak, btw?

Not nothing, but not everything either. His is by far the scummiest slot.

I'll have to check on izak. Why him specifically?

Admiral > Personally, I consider neutral as meaning "not a threat to any party".. a party hostile to all groups is simply an enemy to all.

I'll just add this to the list of things we disagree on then...

Large wall catch-up incoming – if you want to bitch about it tough luck. Reading isn’t hard.

Hard, no. Annoying, yes.

[ThAdmiral]

I have not really liked silverdrummer's defense of himself in his back-and-forth with MoI, but this next sentence really pushed me over the edge to a scumread on him:

3. You are either an arrogant idiot or you know exactly why he requested replacement which you wouldn't know unless you have inside knowledge.

Everyone please note this as evidence of bussing or cheating or more than likely arrogance

That is a huuuuuge stretch, and accusing MoI of cheating is quite a nasty thing to do without any sort of evidence. I thought the replace out was suspect as well. He claimed he was going to post later and then left the game without any kind of acknowledgement of this in the game thread. And I dont like silverdrummer's hardcore tunnelling on Pine either, it looks like bussing to me (though by himself Pine doesnt look scummy to me, just a serious lurker).

I thought the same thing.

I hope that this site will eventually show him the ropes to being a competitive mafia player.

You only learn by making mistakes pal.

I use these forums to do all the stupid things I would never consider doing on the other forums where I play mafia so that I can see first hand why doing that is a bad idea without screwing with my rep on the site that I take the game seriously.

Also, something about the format or layout of these boards makes it so that I can't look at it for an extended period of time without feeling dizzy, so I couldn't really play seriously here if I wanted to. All I can ever do is skim reads.

I had planned a response where I was going to be all like: "don't take it personally, learn from your mistakes, move on, etc." but after this I give up. You're just an asshole.

unvote

vote: junpei

And the tracker claim?

What of it? It's not some magical anti-lynch shield.

@ zellink: I am struggling to keep up as it is. I will look at izak hopefully tomorrow.

Zinger is at -2 for everyone's information

[ThAdmiral]

I wonder if every other player that mentioned the town slip also had this in mind.

On my phone so just a short response but yes that is what I had in mind. I didn't think it was conclusive because the mid didn't specify whether this game had daytalking allowed or not.

Also @ zinger: I apologize about being rude before. I posted in anger which I don't normally do.

Given that you say you are town now can you please full claim your role?

[ThAdmiral]

@ zinger: thank you for confirming your claim. Can you give the flavor? I know you gave flavor before but that involved the whole theiving thing - is that there in your role?

Also re: mafiascum: it can get heated here, but I think that is a natural consequence of the fact that this game is based around people arguing with each other. This game has been particularly bad, probably the worst I have seen in my fairly long history here. It is extremely unfortunate that you will derive your impression of mafiascum as a whole from it.
As far as the people here go while there are some who can be arrogant and have quick tempers I believe that for the most part the people here are the most gracious, knowledgable and interesting players of mafia of all the boards I have played on, and furthermore are the most thoughtful and serious about mafia the game itself.

[ThAdmiral]

I didn't mean to rant for so long, on my phone no less, but whatevs.

In other news I will be v/la from tomorrow night for a few days up to the snow. Hopefully there'll be wifi but I'll just have my phone so it will be hard to read large sections of the game and I won't be able to respond at length.

[ThAdmiral]

Had a look at izak. He hasn't really contributed much but he has said who he thinks are scum and who he thinks are town a few times. He seems ok so far.

@ everyone voting zinger: Do you people really believe he is scum? If not you are going for a

cop-out, sub-optimal lynch

.


Admittedly my vote on junpei is arguably sub-optimal as well.

unvote

Just checked out pine. He has posted 41 times in other games since his last post in this game.

41 times.

vote: pine

My other current top suspects are marco (slight scum-tell from 223 in which he gets cold feet due to the sudden speed of the vifam wagon, but doesn't unvote), and silverdrummer (mainly for his arguments against MoI), but they aren't very strong reads.

[ThAdmiral]

@ zinger: full claim with flavor pls?

[ThAdmiral]

@ everyone voting zinger: Do you people really believe he is scum? If not you are going for a

cop-out, sub-optimal lynch

.

Nice way to twist everything to make it seem like Zinger is a bad lynch and that those voting him are going for a 'cop out'. I stand by this lynch as I do think he is either scum or third party, this is not a cop-out and this is not a sub-optimal lynch. He has fullclaimed and I am still ready to lynch him.

Also we can stop talking about game setup theory as we aren't going to outguess the mod this early on.

I said those who are voting him even if they don't believe he is scum.
If you believe he is scum you have a right to stand by your vote, but I also think you are wrong.

I'm not going to unvote Zinger yet because as a player, he's openly lied to town, and in doing so, assuming he is telling the truth (which I still have doubts on)has revealed a Town power role with little to no reason.

So the best solution you can come up with as punishment for early revealing a Town Powerrole (if he is Town) is to lynch that player?

That’s scumtastic reasoning David.

Good pickup from MoI. That is hilariously bad from david. Back up my scumlist you go!

@Thad Pine's slot is getting replaced. So why are you voting it?

Didn't see that...

unvote

I think it's too early to determine his partners if he has any, I really can't tell you that, I need to analyze the situation more and it isn't something I can do before Zinger dies d1.

This. I don't like this post, it smells funny.

I know. He's claimed tracker and all, but he's really scummy right?

Zinger, don't think too hard about it. You know how hard it is to fake a tracker registry for two nights or more?

Mafia-tracker is a rare but possible role.

Tossing up between silver and davidX. Will vote for whoever has more votes but am probably leaning towards david at this stage.

vote: davidX

@ mod: votecount pls!

[ThAdmiral]

I'm going to have so much to catch up on when I come back...

I'm liking the move away from zinger and towards david/silver. Keep it up guys!

[ThAdmiral]

I'm back.

Junpei > Came into the game at a disadvantage, has since contributed massively to the Town efforts, claimed Tracker.. I'd put money on him being Town frankly. Eloquent and intelligent, which aids massively when he's explaining his thoughts. Also entertaining.

Jesus! Junpei fanboy much?

ThAdmiral > Reading mostly Town, but in honesty don't like the way he picked up MoI's misquoted post and ran with it without bothering to check it in the slightest.. waiting on him to respond though, so not wanting to jump to conclusions.

To be honest I have been doing a lot of skimming in this game, simply because often that's the only way I can keep up!
Can you point me back to where this alleged misquote happened and I'll have a look at it.

I just realised I have town reads on everyone >= 29 posts at this point. I have some town reads among the players with less than 29, but everyone over 29 is a town read. Either I'm reading this game wrong or scum is lurking.

Woohoo! In the town zone!

Who's hopster? I like his post though (964).

I prefer izak, but he's V/LA, and eh.

Worst. Vote. Ever.

Seriously, voting someone for being V/LA? What the fuck.

No, he's saying he would vote him but he's not going to bother since he's v/la.

Edit: been addressed.

@Junpei, I have noticed you have a tendency to over simplify and exaggerate people's posts to make them look bad. Scum points.

Yes.

Marco has requested replacement. easjo682 failed to pick up prod and will be replaced, I am also looking a replacement for Crappy. So yea, 3 replacements needed.

I will be talking to back up mods and Setup reviewers on how to handle this situation.

Call in favors and/or just pm friendly people.

6) Zinger2099 - started posting without contributing, switched to claiming 3rd-party JK and then town JK (I took his doc claim as a joke). Really scummy to me, but I'm weary of other people exaggerating his scuminess (Junpei/Meran), which leads me to consider the possibility that it was, after all, just a poor gambit (and that the people who exaggerated deserve a deeper look).

I'm pretty sure meran has been arguing against a zinger lynch.

David XANATOS: I really don't see the fight with him; he seriously is trying to be scumhunting well; and to me it seems like scums on his wagon

If so who?


To be continued...

[ThAdmiral]

Allow me to cut in on the DavidX attack...

Apologies, Vezok. Not Vifam, got them mixed up there. Regardless, one of the posts you linked was a direct response to Killerjester asking why I wasn't on an RVS wagon after being "specifically invited".

I find it rather ironic actually that you claim it's bad that I changed my RVS vote, and yet at the same time, make it out as though my declining to move my RVS vote onto a stronger RVS wagon is somehow scummy too.

Should we think that you declining an offer to get on to a stronger RVS wagon is a town tell? Is that what you wanted us to think when you declined the stronger rvs wagon?

In addition, how exactly can you "scumhunt" in RVS? The very definition of RVS is poking people to see the responses.. as you've seen with my exchanges RE: MoI, when I get personally involved in something, I tend to focus on it rather heavily.. therefore, my sitting back and observing is my way of trying to catch things that I would otherwise miss.

I don't get it. Can you not post and observe at the same time.
You say yourself the point of rvs is to poke people to see their responses. Don't you think you should have been part of that?

The way you phrase it is as though I'm hopping from an RVS vote onto a wagon for no reason, frankly I read that as trying to imply I'm sheeping, when little could be further from the truth.

I think you're reading things that he isn't saying.

Are you trying to imply that simply hopping onto an RVS wagon is "scumhunting"? That's not scumhunting, that's sheeping. Blatant sheeping at that. You appear to essentially be saying that it's better to follow the pack without reason than observe the field.

No. He's totally not saying that.

Firstly, it's only paranoia if they're not actually after you, and the extent of tunneling shown by you rather proves that you are. Secondly, short, snapping responses don't help Town. It engenders feelings of hostility and doesn't allow any insight into the reasons behind something. Thirdly, over-defensive? I'm responding to points as they're raised. If I reiterate points, it's because someone's asking something I've answered already, and I could either link them to the post, which I believe they'd ignore anyway, or I can spell it out for them. Which would you prefer, number-soup or a few extra lines to read?

I believe when he says "paranoia" here he is referring to the fact you seem very concerned how you're response is going to be viewed by chkballing and others. This is more likely to be behavior from a scum pov.

[ThAdmiral]

General readthrough cont'd...

Junpei: Definite town, hes being going after everyone in a pro-town manner, and continues to reek of towni-...ness. Would be genuinely shocked if he flipped scum

When you say "going after everyone" do you mean "just zinger"? If so: correct.

Something is up with VEZOK, too. Not quite sure what it is, though. Could be a VI, could be scum. Anyone have any prior knowledge of him? not looking for a meta-case or anything; just wondering if he always seems this ...off

Vezok has a very idiosyncratic posting style in that he ALWAYS looks scummy.
Very hard, but not impossible, to read.

@EVERYONE, WHAT IS YOUR THOUGHTS ON LEONSHADE?

Not 100% sure. He's not in my townreads, nor is he up amongst my top scum suspects.

[ThAdmiral]

In post #803, he references my post #742 in isolation, completely ignoring #744, in which I apologise and explain I hit "Submit" instead of "preview", and continue my answer.

Very, very selective quoting on his part. He then tried to link it to a post on a completely different subject, saying it didn't answer the question.

Of course it didn't answer the damn question, it wasn't ADDRESSING that question.

You said misquote initially. You correct it here by saying "selective quoting" but I just want to reiterate he did not misquote you. They were your words.

I think the issue here is that while you do go on to elaborate in 744 about why you were choosing not to unvote zinger, the sentence in 742 is scummy in isolation, and would be scummy even if it was part of the same post.
Basically my take on it is this: you are saying that you think he is scum because he seems to be lying a lot, however even if he is town he deserves to be lynch for revealing a town powerole. I don't think that last caveat would be required if you truly believed in your stance on scum-zinger, and furthermore it smacks of scum trying to enhance their case on someone unnecessarily; since they know they are wrong about the subject being scum they are worried that they have to make their case look better than it perhaps needs to look.

[ThAdmiral]

OMG sooooo much cross-posting!

Firstly, no, it's a null tell. There was no reason for me to get on it, so I didn't get on it. I didn't feel it would be more valuable than poking around in general, so I didn't move.

I don't see why you needed to mention the fact that you didn't get on the stronger rvs wagon then. It seemed like you were trying to get town points for it or something.

Secondly, as it says in the very part you quoted, when I get involved in something, I tend to get blinkered. I don't like that, so I take a step back initially to see if I catch anything to home in on.

Fair enough. I think you could probably try and address that rather than just accepting it, but whatevs.

Thirdly, then what exactly is he implying? The phrase "hopping onto another RVS vote" implies hopping onto a wagon, which is quite obviously not the case.

I don't think the wagon is part of it. He is talking about how you rvs voted twice, about which he stated in 283: "Never in my days have I seen an RVS vote hop onto ANOTHER RVS vote. Something just doesn't feel right with me here. I don't see any town motivation for it". I understand what he means, sort of. It is like you were trying to be too jovial/devil-may-care about your rvs votes.

Fourthly, then tell me, why repeatedly draw attention to the fact I refused to join the Verok wagon? I've explained my stance on it numerous times, yet it's repeatedly drawn as some apparent sign of "scumminess".

tbh I'm not sure about that one. I'll have to check it myself.

edit: I don't see him going on about you refusing to join the vezok wagon. As far as I can tell in his iso he hardly mentions vezok apart from asking you about your current thoughts on vezok and making some comments about you justifying your vote on vezok.

Can you point out where you think he is drawing attention to the fact that you refused to join the vezok wagon?

And lastly, if you mean me actively avoiding simply telling them to fuck off, that's my attempt to actually address questions and concerns. Unless you're trying to say that clarifying stances and thoughts is a scumtell or something? <sarcasm>And here I thought that sharing information and opinions was something that we need to do as Town.. I now see that everyone has the assignment list except me, and can therefore simply read off who's scum..</sarcasm>

Ok you're doing something here which you have done a lot and that is take what people have said, reinterpret it, and then answer the reinterpretation.
I am

not

saying that clarifying stances and thoughts is a scumtell. I

am

saying that you seem paranoid when you say stuff like this:

If I'd simply said "I've answered this", I rather suspect you'd have used that as an excuse to claim I'm "lurking Scum" or similar.

Which clearly seems like you are worried about chkballin is going to say about you, and that you plan your responses so as to receive the least negative response. Which strikes me as something scum is more likely to be concerned about.

ThAd, did you look at Junpei's list of reads? o_0

It's not only Zinger.

Have you had a look at his posts?

It's only Zinger.

And how exactly am I a "fanboy" for noting the fact that he's able to express his thoughts well? That was a copy-paste from the notes I write up on everybody. *shrug*

That's just me having a dig, don't worry yourself too much about it!

As I've also stated, I don't believe he /is/ town PR. I fully believe that he is either hostile third party or Scum. The last comment was, as I recall, a response to the people saying "but what if he is town?"

I subscribe largely to the idea of "Lynch all liars". It creates an unneeded level of complexity for Town, and only bites us in the ass on later days if we have to choose between a liar we previously chose to believe, and those who've not shown any reasons for being suspected.

Ok, that makes more sense now.
As far as LaL goes I don't like to think of anything as black and white. Obviously if someone has lied about a night result and they get caught out they should be lynched, but people

do

gambit and if there is enough circumstancial evidence to suggest someone is town (and I believe that is the case here) such a simplistic rule such as LaL should not be applied.

[ThAdmiral]

4) thAdmiral at the start of your post you mentioned "cross-posting" which implies contradictory lines of thought and posting, presumably by David X, however you have shown no clear evidence of that in your post. Sure there may be some scummy things you pointed out, but none that were cross-posting. Can you explain why you mixed that up?

Negative. Cross-posting is where someone posts something but the other person has posted as well so they then have to respond to that, and then when they have responded to that the other person has responded to the thing they posted previously etc. It tends to get a little messy!


I'm still inclined to think david is more likely scum than silver, but the silver wagon is a LOT more viable. Competing wagons ftw.

unvote

vote: silver

(don't take this to mean I've forgotten about you david...)

[ThAdmiral]

@ mod: can you list the people who aren't voting as well.

People who aren't voting need to vote.

People who are voting someone with only a couple of votes need to start thinking about taking sides: zinger or silver.

[ThAdmiral]

@ silver: the day has gone on long enough and I think it's time we reach some consensus. I think competing wagons are optimal for town. I think people not involved in a wagon that has a chance of going to lynch at this point are wasting their vote, or potentially flying under the radar purposefully.

[ThAdmiral]

For an example of the latter see andrew. In fact his entire play today has largely been flying under the radar.

[ThAdmiral]

Which clearly seems like you are worried about chkballin is going to say about you, and that you plan your responses so as to receive the least negative response. Which strikes me as something scum is more likely to be concerned about.

I don't agree with this at all. I don't see how DX reiterating to avoid a particular line of attack is scummy. If you're defending yourself already, it's simply pro-"your survival" to make sure you present your defence in a way that isn't going to antagonise people further.

It isn't the reiteration. It is him saying that he assumed he would get attacked if he didn't reiterate.

Could everyone please tell me in what order they rank the following possibilities:

1) Zinger is town
2) Zinger is scum
3) Zinger is actually third party?

1-3-2

People who are voting someone with only a couple of votes need to start thinking about taking sides: zinger or silver.

Nah, I'm quite happy not voting for a townie.

Excuse me while I prod dodge until izak is back so people don't feel guilty about voting him or whatever.

Why, in your opinion, is silver a townie?

Also I won't ask you to rehash your entire argument about izak, but what is your number 1 point against him?
(btw I'm not asking to shoot it down, I'm genuinely interested)

Reading the above, it occurred to me, with the deadline not being until 12 August, what is the "need" for the lower wagons to dissipate?

the day has gone on long enough and I think it's time we reach some consensus. I think competing wagons are optimal for town. I think people not involved in a wagon that has a chance of going to lynch at this point are wasting their vote, or potentially flying under the radar purposefully.

[ThAdmiral]

Why, in your opinion, is silver scum?

- was very wishy-washy regarding vifam. Uses phrases like "odd" and "I don't know what to think". Also the heads don't seem to agree about vifam

- voted marco for posting walls/because he seemed scared (what does that even mean?) as far as I can tell. Also uses more wishy-washy phrases about marco such as "Marco's 223 confuses me a bit"

- accusing moi of cheating during their argument

- I tend to think his attack on pine is scummy rather than a sign that he is town. I mean he's attacking a person who isn't here and doesn't look to be coming back. Could there be a softer target?

I don't agree with this at all. I don't see how DX reiterating

to avoid a particular line of attack is scummy.

If you're defending yourself already, it's simply pro-"your survival" to make sure you present your defence in a way that isn't going to antagonise people further.

It isn't the reiteration. It is him saying that he assumed he would get attacked if he didn't reiterate.

Yes? As I said, I don't see how him reiterating "to avoid a particular line of attack" is scummy. It's good tactical play.

I'm not saying it isn't, but I am saying it is something scum would be more likely to be concerned with.

the day has gone on long enough and I think it's time we reach some consensus. I think competing wagons are optimal for town. I think people not involved in a wagon that has a chance of going to lynch at this point are wasting their vote, or potentially flying under the radar purposefully.

Ah, sorry.

Purely theory argument, but I don't agree with this sort of thinking. (creates a contrived scenario...etc.)\

Fair enough.

[ThAdmiral]

Also to add to the silver case:

I don't have the same problem as others about his list (I believe others thought it weird that he had a list of suspects, but then voted someone not on that list, but that seems more like a miscommunication), but I do have a different problem with it:
other than his first two suspects marco and pine, who are suspects essentially because they haven't posted much and also haven't been replaced (somewhat ironically he holds very strongly to the viewpoint that if someone

is

replaced it's a null-tell, so logically if pine and marco had just flaked a bit harder they would be fine!), he has:
magna: who attacked him
meransiel: who attacked him
nero cain: who attacked him

...and goomba: because ?
As far as I can tell he mentions goomba a grand total of once and I can't fathom what he is talking about:

the goomba's 323 sounds like "hey scum can claim prs.. let's get this wagon back up and running for some "unforseen motivation"".

[ThAdmiral]

Yes? As I said, I don't see how him reiterating "to avoid a particular line of attack" is scummy. It's good tactical play.

I'm not saying it isn't, but I am saying it is something scum would be more likely to be concerned with.

I don't accept that.

EVERY player, town or scum, puts some thought into crafting their posts so that they aren't received poorly or miconstrued. Scum, arguably, have more individual incentive to want to avoid being attacked (this is something I am skeptical of), but I don't think you have any basis for assuming that that translates into a statistically significant likelihood of it being scum.

The only difference between this and any other case is that DX admitted that was what he was doing.

Agree to disagree. I think it does translate into a small increased in likelihood of it being scum.

[ThAdmiral]

Pre-emptive defenses in arguments and debate especially show an understand of the content and that he's aware of what is going on. I have used premptive defenses all the time as town, it is just something I will do if I see something obvious that the opponent is going to say. It is only natural to set-up the other person debating with you in a position where it is least likely that he will win, I call it smart play, you call it scummy.

Maybe I am wrong and it is just a playstyle thing. But I know whenever I am scum I am more conscious about appearing town and avoiding attacks, and am more paranoid about how I'm perceived.

[ThAdmiral]

As for the difference in opinions of the head, why do you think this is scummy rather than a case of heads not co-operating. It seems like they're having issues with being a hydra. Unless you think that in itself is scummy (and I'd like to know why if you do), I don't see how you can use this as a reason for suspecting silver. :/

It adds to the general air of wishy-washiness but is admittedly probably due to the issues they are having as a hydra. No I don't think that in and of itself is scummy.

- accusing moi of cheating during their argument

Just verifying, this is something you think is scummy? Or more likely to come from scum than town?

Yes. I think it is an attempt to nullify/undermine the argument without actually addressing the argument.

Could there be a softer target?

Well, Zinger for one. DavidX seems to be a fairly soft target as well.

That's actually a good point. The zinger bit at least. I'm not as sold on david being a soft target as he's generally been able to defend himself quite well.

@Thad,

Also the composition of silver's scum list is something I don't see coming from scum, unless they're really, really, really ambitious scum.

What makes you say that about the composition? Is it that it is so ridiculously bad it couldn't possibly be scum?

What do you think of this from silver:

1. I'd rather me than zinger

To be honest I don't know.
It actually seems genuine. I mean it

could

be a gambit, but it doesn't feel like one.

I shall ponder this and come back to it on the morrow...

[ThAdmiral]

I've had a think about it...

The "lynch me instead of david" might be a slight town-tell for silver but I think it is outweighed by all the other scummy behavior. I am entirely

not

convinced by his "town is sucking" rant. In any case I think the last couple of pages REALLY proves we need a lynch to get things moving. I mean 20 posts about prod rules interpretations. Seriously? Before that an entire discussion about appropriate deadline lengths?!?

[ThAdmiral]

Well I certainly won't be hammering you. But that's because I'm already voting you.

[ThAdmiral]

@ Junpei: I was wrong about you. You're town, aren't you.
I still think you're wrong about zinger, but I think you're town.

@ ThAd:

Who's scummier, Silver or David?

David.

@ rainbow: take your blinkers off. You are failing/refusing to take in to account any circumstantial evidence regarding Zinger, also you are failing/refusing to look at the situation without bias.

A) You say that when someone claims 3rd party they should be lynched, and you have no reason to believe Zinger was gambiting, BUT his play in previous games has proven his willingness to take what seem like stupid risks

B) You say there is no reason for him to claim 3rd party as town, BUT what reason does he have to claim 3rd party if he is indeed 3rd party or scum?

Rodion - Just scummy all the way through.
Meransiel - I hate this no posting garbage and I think you softclaimed scum
Leonshade - Early exchanges seemed forced and possible distancing
Junpei - Vifam was scummy and replaced out under pressure. Junpei claimed Tracker and then started burying the argument under walls of text like a cat trying to hide the evidence in the litter box.

This is a ridiculously terrible list.
Firstly rodion is obvtown. Meran and Junpei are also very-likely-town.
Secondly what is "scummy" and where did meransiel allegedly "softclaimed scum"?

[ThAdmiral]

Secondly what is "scummy" and where did meransiel allegedly "softclaimed scum"?

You're not really asking me what "scummy" is, are you?

Yes I am. I'm asking what you think "scummy" means in relation to those players.

I didn't make cases on my suspicions because at some point we have to end this very long day. But I had to get them out there now in case I don't get another chance. If I'm still here tomorrow, I'll make my cases then.

Cop.
Out.

I already answered the second part.

I saw. Cross-posts...

[ThAdmiral]

I will assume you mean blinders not blinkers unless this is some new talent I have yet to discover, being multi-talented as I am, it easily could be however.

Blinkers and blinders are the same thing depending where you come from.

Part of saying that all third party claims should be lynched is that it stops ponies from eventually faking third party roles because they think it's clever or something along those lines. If you are claiming he is one of those ponies that need to constantly be given a pass because of his inability to do anything correctly, thats not going to fly either. I would be willing to lynch ponies like that regardless of alignment every time if it eventually teaches them to not be complete Derpy Ponies, or he leaves the site like he appears to be threatening for and I hope he does. If you want to call it a policy lynch, I would be fine with such as it is to a certain extent. His continued play of showing no intention to help later is enough to cement it as the correct move, especially when its up against silver. Maybe if it was Zinger vs Peregrine I would be willing to let this slide, but here no chance.

This entire paragraph = "it doesn't even matter if he's town, I'd still lynch him". Fair enough, you can choose to be like that but I choose to believe that is

sub-optimal play

. And I am judging you based on that.

First if he was third party and his original claim was right, it actually WAS the correct move for him to claim like he did as there was a win option for him that would remove him from the game. The thing though is we get to where we are now, where everypony just decides to give him a pass because no scum would make this move. It is a gambit but are you honestly saying you have never seen scum claim third party to try and escape a lynch? It happens, about at the same rate town thinks its a cute gambit to try and then gets torched for. These types of claims are WIFOM since its the quote unquote incorrect move to make for any alignment.

I honestly can say I have never seen it (or if I have I can't remember it). Why, if he was scum, would he not have just said "town jk" instead of "3rd party jk". There is literally no reason that I can see. If a scum claims 3rd party they have ensured there is 0% chance for them to survive throughout the game. Him actually being 3rd party is just as unlikely as that claim was mooted when it was pointed out it was unfairly difficult for him to reach his alleged win condition.
It is actually not

necessarily

the incorrect move to make for town, however. In this case if he had survived the lynch (possible but unlikely) mafia would not have wasted a kill on him, knowing that we would eventually lynch the claimed 3rd party. It was still

stupid

, don't get me wrong, but it has the best (only) motive of any alignment.

[ThAdmiral]

Andrew speaks english >.> he's from down under iirc.

He only knows 2 languages: english and BAD english. He's much more fluent in the second one.

On a serious note though Andrew has sailed through this day providing nothing and has so far escaped any serious attention. This should be remedied...

vote: andrew

[ThAdmiral]

Well I don't see any reason to pick up where I left off yesterday. I still think andrew deserves more attention.

vote: andrew

[ThAdmiral]

@ peregrine: I don't think junpei's choice was that bad, and the reasoning he gave seems reasonable to me. I don't see why you think it's suspicious.
If vezok claims he's lying that's something else.

Edit: which he didn't.

That being said:
@ junpei: your 1481 is terribad. You voice support for the second lead lynch from yesterday, who is therefore logically the likely lynch leader today, and then you say you aren't going to vote and that you are going to explore other options... but then you don't explore other options. You mention Andrew and Zellink, say that "have done some suspicious things", but don't mention what these things are.

10/10 A+ lynch, would do it again in a second.

Stubbornness ftw!!!
I personally think the lynch was closer to a 2 or 3/10. This is probably because I prefer my lynches to catch scum.

That being said... I like your case on peregrine. He has seemed to be throwing a lot of mud around, but not taking any stances or doing any proper scumhunting.

Okay, I am most suspicious of Rodion after reviewing this game.

On my site we never let people live after altering claims especially after altering claims when you claimed not to be town. So we'd never have let Zinger live yesterday.

He just seemed to be earning silly brownie points by acting townie and starting suspicions for day 2 without any active attempts to derail the zinger wagon or explain why he wasn't content to see it hammered.

I don't see that as a townie attitude, I feel certain he's scum.

Vote: Rodion

He wasn't the only person saying they didn't like the zinger wagon. Why single out rodion?

WHY WOULD YOU TRACK VEZOK?

But I don't understand why you tracked me?

Are you trolling? I remember him answering this question on the last page.

admiral, you should know better than to call me sailing under the boat. thats a bad case and it is tunneling.

silver classicly saying 'im just continuely with my day 1 scum reads' (Same as admiral there)

Is it a bad case because it is wrong? Am I really tunnelling? I spent most of yesterday attacking people that

weren't

you if I recall correctly. (and I do)

Also what are you trying to imply in your second line? The nk didn't really do anything to change my reads, should it have?

What are your reads now? Are they completely different?

[ThAdmiral]

There's a heap of stuff I want to reply to but I'm v busy right now. I'll be able to post tomorrow.

[ThAdmiral]

Ok FINALLY some time to post.

A couple of people asked me why I thought Rodion was town. I first started thinking it in post 109. He claimed that he was a mislynch and that he was town. This is, of course, not proof - but it is the sort of thing that smacks of a newish player not knowing what else to say. I'm generally pretty good at picking when people are being genuine like this, and I think I'm right about this.
In 404 he gave a helpful list of other games he had been in/was in unprompted. This sort of open giving of information seems like behavior coming from someone who believes he has nothing to hide.

I've pretty much had him as a town read ever since. I think there were a few other things he has said that has reaffirmed my opinion of him but I can't remember them. If I looked I could probably find them, but only if you guys aren't satisfied with the above for some reason and want to pester me.

@Thad & Jun-
Even the target is confused as to why he was chosen, which shows why their is general confusion.

...

The target being confused means nothing,

What he said.

It's too bad a Junpei lynch is off the table, because oh man this deflection post is golden.

But he wasn't deflecting away from himself. Does that still make it scummy?

Post 1580 is the first thing I've liked from banshee.

@everyone you know how you demanded junpei's track. and he said vezok. what if vezok said he did go somewhere. who would you believe.

Lots of what andrew has posted is bad, and most of it has been addressed, but I just wanted to bring special attention to this horrible line. Look at it.

LOOK AT IT!!!

I'm slightly confused as to why scum would WANT to neighbor MoI. That's why I'm steering clear of andrew for now.

This is literally the only thing that is making me question andrew being scum.
But it is making me question it, so it bears mentioning.

i clearly stated that i asked jason this question: can scum neighbouriser( ie the other) recruit their own scum buddies.
the answer was yes.

This is patently ridiculous. Why would scum recruit another scum? They are already in a "neighborhood" with them.

ALIGNMENTS ARE RANDOMIZED YOU FUCKS. That means that there can damn well be two Town Neighborizers. Hell, there could be two mafia neighborizers.

ALIGNMENTS, not ROLES.

Edit: it's been mentioned. Eh, one more can't hurt.

Am i the only one who thinks MoI is more likely scum than andrew?

Probably.

Rainbow is obv town. Maybe more to me than anyone else.

Ok, why?

why is chk's scumminess being overlooked?

If you're going to say something like this you may as well elaborate as to why you think he's scummy. So can you?

I do know how much you enjoy playing this little game where you get someone (in this case me) to ask you these sort of inane questions.

No listing of "not voting"?

@ mod: seconded

**THE FOLLOWING NEEDS TO BE ANSWERED**

firstly, banshee what do you mean 'this'

It was a hyperlink to the post that caused me to vote for you. I thought that was evident.

What is the value of the "integrity" of the discussion between unconfirmed neighbours, in your view? Also, in your opinion what is the benefit of daytalk between unconfirmed individuals?

[ThAdmiral]

It's too bad a Junpei lynch is off the table, because oh man this deflection post is golden.

But he wasn't deflecting away from himself. Does that still make it scummy?

but he's deflecting from a wagon on a slot that HE finds scummy. That what makes it bad.

Well firstly that wouldn't make any more sense as scum than it would as town.
Secondly imo he was just pointing out an oversight. I don't think there were any duplicitous motives.


wow, I just looked at oversoul's posting history. He has posted...

238 times

...since he last posted here. That is absolutely astronomical.

(thanks to rainbow for bringing that to my attention)

[ThAdmiral]

He doesn't know what EST, PL, or ISO stands for. Unfamiliarty with MS terminology (or in the case of EST... human terminology?)

He knows what "VI" stands for well enough to use it in a sentence towards me casually and naturally. I don't think he be so unfamiliar with it as he be representing.

He's buying himself credit by not being familiar with the site. Newbie = nonthreatening = harmless = easy to read = town.

This is such bullshit. Do you actually believe this?

Posts like this be incredible wastes of the town's time that provide lots of words without lots of information...

I happen to think his reads on magna and pappams were fine. And what's wrong with asking people who haven't posted much to talk more so he can get a better read on them?

He tried so very non-hard to defend Zinger for the town cred, sure to remind people that it of course was mathematically possible that Zinger could be town despite claiming to be non-town, and that we cannot ever be sure for man is not wise in the mysteries of the universe badda badda.

You say defending zinger for town-cred, I say he was

actually right

about zinger. Zinger did indeed gambit (poorly) as town. Somehow you believe this makes rodion more likely scum. wtf?

[ThAdmiral]

I had no opinion of Pine because, well, there really was nothing to work with at all. Silver's case on Pine and his relentless pushing of a policy lynch without ever giving his reasons (being useless is not a reason, or we'd never be done policy lynching imo) are actually part of the reason I think Silver is likely scum. But I was most suspicious of Rodion all day yesterday and stated my case (which is very similar to Castle Bravo's) in depth at that time. ThAdmiral was insistent that Rodion was town, insistent enough to shake my town read on ThAd at one point and lead me to question ThAd about it. I don't think I got an answer and I STILL don't think Rodion is town.

A couple of people asked me why I thought Rodion was town. I first started thinking it in post 109. He claimed that he was a mislynch and that he was town. This is, of course, not proof - but it is the sort of thing that smacks of a newish player not knowing what else to say. I'm generally pretty good at picking when people are being genuine like this, and I think I'm right about this.
In 404 he gave a helpful list of other games he had been in/was in unprompted. This sort of open giving of information seems like behavior coming from someone who believes he has nothing to hide.

I've pretty much had him as a town read ever since. I think there were a few other things he has said that has reaffirmed my opinion of him but I can't remember them. If I looked I could probably find them, but only if you guys aren't satisfied with the above for some reason and want to pester me.

^^
There's your answer. I also find it odd that me saying I had a town-read on someone would make you suspicious of me. Why did it "shake (your) town read" on me?

[ThAdmiral]

1) Stop acting like you're so much more intelligent and aware than us and that you would have been able to provide concrete posts that had shown Zinger was town.

2) You replaced in AFTER zinger flipped, that's why it's obvious to you.

To be fair to banshee you've completely misread what he wrote.

@thadmiral and the other guy (forgot name)
i already stated before that i saw someone say

if vezok said he went somewhere

junpei hangs.\

But he didn't, so...

\situation:
X is scum. he has to invite someone. he invites his scum bro and so
later on, it looks like X isnt the person who moi says 'is trying to
not get hit on two fronts, qt play and thread play'.

...what? Can you explain this again because I literally don't know what you are going on about here.

whats wrong with recruiting some people that i think may be scum??? lol

What do you hope to gain by recruiting a scum-read in to your neighborhood.

Also:

**THE FOLLOWING NEEDS TO BE ANSWERED**

firstly, banshee what do you mean 'this'

It was a hyperlink to the post that caused me to vote for you. I thought that was evident.

What is the value of the "integrity" of the discussion between unconfirmed neighbours, in your view? Also, in your opinion what is the benefit of daytalk between unconfirmed individuals?

[ThAdmiral]

For a while there it seemed the more you spoke the less I understood, but I

think

I've got a handle on this. I would still like some clarification though. I'll put all my questions in yes/no format so there is less room for ambiguity. I'll also number the questions so that you can just reply in the format:

1. yes
2. no
etc.

someone said the following: junpei hangs if vezok counters
before vezok said anything. therefore i asked the question after (i will try to find that person)

1. So was the initial question only directed at that one person?
2. And were you asking to determine who they would be more likely to trust if vezok counterclaimed?
3. And why they would be more likely to trust that person?

my second point is that moi said the following: scum neighbourizer has to balance because they get owned on two fronts: the qt and the thread.
now, if someone is a scum neighbour, wouldnt the logical thing to do is to
A) get a scum partner
B) get some town later on

I believe what you are referring to is what MoI posted in 1590:

Scum on the other hand would have to balance the danger of bringing a Town player into the QT and risk getting fingered for play on two fronts (Thread and QT)

4. Is this correct?
5. Do you believe this now?
Because after MoI initially posted this you said, in 1618,

directly referring to that quote

:

no they dont... how so.

6. So have you gone back on your initial opinion of what MoI said?
7. Furthermore do you believe MoI is scum, because you say it would be likely for the other neighbourizer (who you think is scum) to recruit scum first?

to see what he says, i can determine the other guys alignment from junpei(As im not THAT sure)

8. Just to confirm are you responding to:

What do you hope to gain by recruiting a scum-read in to your neighborhood.

9. When you say "the other guy" do you mean the other neighbourizer? (If "no" please elaborate here on who "the other guy" is)
10. Do you believe "the other guy" is scum with junpei?

integrity= 2 can keep a secret. 3 cant
the arrangement was that if A dies then B is scum
if B dies A is scum
if moi dies A and B reveal each other
i thought if i recruited a scum then he can exploit this

10. Is the secret that you are a neighbourizer?
11. Do you want scum to exploit this?
Because it seems weird that you would recruit someone who you have a scum-read if that was the case. Once again please elaborate here if you feel it is necessary.

[ThAdmiral]

comments on thadmiral: you know how you voted me because of being under the boat on day 1?
then you know how you voted me first thing on day 2 again?
am i still under the boat? and is your vote still on me?(cant remember)

You aren't "under the boat" (?), but you have been very curt and ambiguous with your answers, which indicates you could have something to hide. The preceeding post is the first that I have been able to more or less completely understand you. And that was like drawing blood from a stone.
So no, you aren't under the boat...

But I still think you are scum, so the vote stays.

Also you still haven't responded to:

**THE FOLLOWING NEEDS TO BE ANSWERED**

firstly, banshee what do you mean 'this'

It was a hyperlink to the post that caused me to vote for you. I thought that was evident.

What is the value of the "integrity" of the discussion between unconfirmed neighbours, in your view? Also, in your opinion what is the benefit of daytalk between unconfirmed individuals?

some of your questions are suspicious.

Cool. Which ones? Why?

I've got some questions, but I'm busy right now, will ask later.

[ThAdmiral]

@ andrew:

1. Why did you recruit someone you had a scumread on, even one not set in stone, if you wanted to keep the integrity of the neighborhood?
You say you were worried, night 1 for example, that the person you recruited might have been scum, and that they could have exploited the knowledge of you and moi as neighbors and that is why you considered not recruiting. Therefore why wouldn't you want to recruit someone you were almost certain was town?

2. When did you start considering MoI as potential scum?

3. Why did you recruit MoI in the first place? (apologies if you've already answered that)

[ThAdmiral]

You're trying way to hard castle bravo.

[ThAdmiral]

i dont understand banshees first part.
the second part: the benefit is that they can talk? ask each other questions
etc. about scumhunting, theres no point having a secret scum read in
the Qt, much rather have it out in the open.

This makes it sound like you don't think there's much point to having a neighborhood at all, since things are better out in the open. Is that true?

@thadmiral, your first question is suspicious.
it was a trap question. you know fully well that usually i would just say yes or no
notice how i rarely answered yes or no in my answers? yea.

What? My first question was "1. So was the initial question only directed at that one person?" and it was for clarification.
And you said: "some of your questions are suspicious".

Question

s

. Plural. So once again: which questions are suspicious, and why? Otherwise I'm going to have to assume you are backed in to a corner and are trying to bullshit your way out.

@rodion the qt integrety thingee was so newcomers dont mouth off. (i said that?)
i wanted to catch scum instead of having a town read that may or may not be town. so screw intergrety afterall

So wait, are you now saying you don't care about the integrity of your neighborhood?

2) i think after day 2 when he started doing the things he said made me look like scum. and after he called me scum

Put yourself in his shoes. Do you honestly think he's been behaving unreasonably/scummily? Would you believe there were two town neighborizers? You even admitted yourself that you felt that MoI believed you were the less town (post 1578), so obviously you have some insight to what he might have been thinking.

[ThAdmiral]

To everyone on the Andrew wagon: Do you think silver is more than mildly scummy?

He's actually dropped quite a bit down my scumlist. I'd probably still lynch him over izak if it came to those two though.

[ThAdmiral]

@ThAdmiral but you would still lynch me as a second choice? What have I actually done wrong? I know I've not been most useful but I don't see anything of mine as especially scummy, so please enlighten me.

I think the point you're missing is that you would be second choice out of you and silver. You're somewhere on my scumlist but not particularly high.

Whinging about not having done anything wrong does not endear you to me, however, since you really haven't done anything much right OR wrong.

[ThAdmiral]

Cool, thanks for the update!

Will he be replying to the unanswered questions for you...?

[ThAdmiral]

It would be much fairer to label me "unpredictable" than "always this scummy and useless".

If you want to cement your unpredictable reputation, give us some reads on who you think the scum are and why. I will almost guarantee no one expects that at this point.

Witty!

[ThAdmiral]

I don't think anything more needs to be said, and I HIGHLY doubt andrew will ever come back and try to defend himself, as surely he must know the game is well and truly up. Please someone hammer away.

[ThAdmiral]

@ drshotty: please full claim now. Its the only way you're going to give yourself a chance to live through today.

re castlebravo/greyice: not worth the risk if he's a bomb, as he'd kill chkballin or moi who I strongly believe are town.

[ThAdmiral]

Ooh, good pickup rainbowdash.

[ThAdmiral]

vote: oversoul

[ThAdmiral]

Oversoul needs to full claim.

Shotty needs to full claim.

We need to get to the bottom of this.

[ThAdmiral]

I still can't believe that Oversoul-town switches watch and track but ALSO chooses to hold onto BP.

This. Oversoul basically just scumclaimed.

Also MILLER? I have never seen a miller + other role ever, and really fail to see any justification for it.

To be fair that is pretty common nowadays. Miller/pr is the new miller.

[ThAdmiral]

So many people to lynch, so little time. We have pretty much the next three days lined up depending on whether we actually have a vig or not.

[ThAdmiral]

Lining up lynches is scummy... Like really scummy man. Each flip will effect the reads of people. :/

Unless they're all scum...

And of course you would say that as you're one of the one's lined up.

@ junpei: don't feed the troll.

[ThAdmiral]

vote: castle bravo

@ mod: votecount pls?

[ThAdmiral]

Questions to

everyone

:

1 - Do you believe Shotty's claim?
2 - Do you think Castle Bravo should already have been lynched by now and the derailing of his wagon that just took place is negative?

A simple yes or no will suffice, but feel free to elaborate if you want to. Please answer both questions;

1 - no
2 - probably best to wait for the track result, but other than that it is just delaying the inevitable

[ThAdmiral]

ThAd > Do you disbelieve it in it's entirety, or do you think he may have one of the four but is gambitting with the "SuperJack" claim. (I have no idea what to call that, it's sure as hell not inventor.. and SuperJack is the term that springs to mind for something like that..)

Let me put it this way: I think he is scum.

[ThAdmiral]

Mera - I don't think he's scum
CB - I'm currently voting him...
Izak - null read

[ThAdmiral]

I'll reserve judgement until shotty fullclaums properly, along with peregrine fullclaiming.

[ThAdmiral]

I dont there can be a cult. There better not be a cult.

Vote: castle bravo

Should have been lynched yesterday.

[ThAdmiral]

A couple of bad lynches from town, but excellent kills from the scum. Completely destroyed the neighbourhood we had set up which looked like it was just about set to really push town in the right direction.

Also greyice and fourseen...

Mafia vig is a weird role. Perhaps a little op?

@ shotty: your play was unnecessary. You probably would have won a day earlier if you hadn't done it. In a tighter game you probably would have cost scum the victory with that.

@ andrew: beat me as scum again...fuck.

[ThAdmiral]

I'm sad to remove this from my bookmarks.

Thanks to everyone for a great game.

This is true. Was really fun.

I forgot to say: thanks for modding Jason!

btw if no one else objects I'll put up the neighborhood qt thread.

[ThAdmiral]

edit: oh wait, it's already up. Never mind!