camn's temperamental - Mini 1232 - GAME OVER

[Fishythefish]

@kanye: when you say you buy this claim, do you mean just the role or the townness as well? I think the role is likely, but a scum inventor is very possible.

[kanyeknowsbest]

i agree scum inventor is 100% possible, but i am feeling he is more likely to be town inventor at this point due to the way he pulled off his claim. ill reread when i get back and reevaluate it then.

[Twistedspoon]

why did you choose fishy to invent?

he was/is a top town read of mine

@spoon: problems in that claim analysis -

a) If you are (say) a Mafia Goon, it's not clear that claiming something confirmable and which doesn't get confirmed is a bad thing. Your claim

is

unprovable, and you

haven't

been lynched.
b) Bigger problems (for me) - you could be scum inventor who invents bad things. You even acknowledged the possibility that you invented bad things in you claim post - maybe as a preemptive defence for when I claimed that you'd invented me something bad. You could be a scum inventor who invents good things - particularly if you know the invention isn't that exciting, inventing a townie something good puts you in a very town-looking position at a time when you were vulnerable.

I don't see this claim as one that makes you obvtown at all.

if i invented bad things then i wouldn't have claimed

I acknowledged that i could invent bad things (although i highly doubt it) as it's still a possibility and i like to cover all possibilities. Like you say, a scum inventor was possible (even though I can say with 100% certainty that I am not a scum inventor)

[PeregrineV]

@Red- Do you disagree with Chair?

@Twisted- Verification of your role is dependent upon confirmation by the receiving party.

if i invented bad things then i wouldn't have claimed

I acknowledged that i could invent bad things (although i highly doubt it) as it's still a possibility and i like to cover all possibilities. Like you say, a scum inventor was possible (even though I can say with 100% certainty that I am not a scum inventor)

So, do you know or do you not know if you invent bad things? Your first sentence says you know you don't, but your second and previous says you don't know.
Which is it?

[Twistedspoon]

well I don't know if i invent good or bad things for sure, but I find it unlikely from my point of view as I am town aligned

I assumed by the word 'powers' in my role pm that my inventions are a good thing, but strictly speaking I do not know for sure

[Haylen]

Unvote

I can buy that for now.

[Lurconis]

@Twisted do you know of cases where a town inventor creates bad powers? If not why would you feel the need to protect yourself from that?

[camn]

use vla tag, son. I got 99 problems, keeping track of you aint 1.

Johhog

- 1

( fishythefish )

Haylen

- 1

( PeregrineV )

Lurconis

- 1

( Johhog )

twistedspoon

- 3

( Parama Chair Zang )

Parama

- 2

( twistedspoon RedPanda )

NOT VOTING:

( Lurconis kanyeknowsbest Haylen )

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Deadline is

THURS, SEPTEMBER 29th

, 8pm MY TIME.. . Or whenever I get around to it.

[Johhog]

How is Lurconis claim a "massive towntell"?

[RedPanda]

@per are you talking about chairs 496? if yes then i completely agree with what chair said but there are the votes people have to look into.
BB's lynch has to have some scumvotes on it and pushing for a twisted lynch in 2 days with lurconis willing to hammer also just proves that both votes on them have scumvotes on them. right now i believe the scum to be parama, lurconis and kanye.

[RedPanda]

How is Lurconis claim a "massive towntell"?

+1. exactly hows it a massive towntell?

[Twistedspoon]

@Twisted do you know of cases where a town inventor creates bad powers? If not why would you feel the need to protect yourself from that?

I've never played with an inventor before, so I'm considering all possibilities, even though I find it highly unlikely that a town inventor would create bad powers

[RedPanda]

Sath's death also makes spoon more likely scum, because Sath suspected spoon.

i completely disagree with this, doesnt it make it too obvious? please dont reply saying its WIFOM, please then use that logic for lurconis and paramas claim where it makes more sense.

i believe sathoris died because kanye and lurconis found him to be a threat. you can find all the evidence in your rereads.

[Fishythefish]

How is Lurconis claim a "massive towntell"?

Because scum don't like to claim unless they have to, particularly interesting claims like this one. Anyone who stands up for no reason and says "yeah, so I'm a watcher" is town.

@RP: In the current mafiascum meta, no kill is "too obvious". Nightkill analysis is extremely limited, so scum generally just shoot who they want dead. If you read Sath, his clear biggest suspect was spoon, with five other people a long way behind. I think spoon had easily the most motivation to kill him. Why do you think kanye and lurc found him a threat?

As for the claims of Para and Lurc,

could

be scum thinking "they'll never think scum would do this". But in my experience, that not something that actually happens, particularly from Lurc - you just don't get scum claiming a power role early in the game for no reason. From Para it's perhaps more likely - he strikes me as a ballsy player, and he got a mislynch out of it - but it still seems a massive risk for scum who wasn't at all under pressure.

[RedPanda]

because sathoris butted horns with both of them at the start. what about the votes ?
BBmolla - 7 ( Parama Johhog kanyeknowsbest Lurconis fishythefish Zang twistedspoon )
twistedspoon - 5 ( Parama kanyeknowsbest Lurconis Chair Haylen )

three people on both wagons. whats your explanation about the where the scum votes are?

[Fishythefish]

But you say it yourself - that was at the start. Not who sath currently suspected (kanye was in the town category in [url=http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p3427867]Sath's most recent reads). Why do you think the beginning of the game is more important than what Sath actually thought in determining the NK?

Why does it matter that there are three people on both wagons? Missing your point here. The scum votes could be... more or less anywhere. A likely pair is any with at most one of spoon's wagon, say. spoon/Johhog/anyone, for example, is a perfectly sensible scumteam. As is spoon/Zang/anyone, spoon/Peregrine/anyone, and many others.

[RedPanda]

i do believe the start of the games important, thats when scum scope out threats.

I dont buy the 2 cops with different names and same roles thing. correct me if im wrong isn't that why you lynched BB?
We all buy into the "oh parama cant be scum, because he made a move that scum would never do" but why cant he be scum? what if he played us?
And lurconis actually claimed to help out parama saying that he had the exact same role that sathoris did so there can be two cops. then he says this

I don't want to hammer before you even have a chance to defend so I will hold off until you can post again but that is where i am currently.

.

right now im confident of the parama lurconis scum team. kanye could be the third.

[RedPanda]

also sathoris reads about kanye and parama were the same as mine at that point. im willing to bet that sathoris would have done the same thing im doing once BB flipped town if he were alive.

[Fishythefish]

So... you think scum look at who suspects them at the start of the game, and decide on who the threats are, and ignore what those people actually think at the end of the day? Why on earth would they do that?

Yep, I was happy to lynch BB mostly because I thought 2 cops was unlikely. But I think Parama's move really

is

very unlikely as scum, particularly when he had no particular reason to do it - BB's role is massively unscary for scum, and nobody really thought Parama was scum.

I'd take your bet. Sath's suspect was spoon. There's no reason to think that he would have moved on after BB flipped town - he already thought BB was town. Your reasons that kanye and lurc would have feared Sath really are extremely weak.

[Lurconis]

@red panda Sathoris voiced suspicion of you in post 122 so according to your logic you are also a prime candidate to want him dead

[Fishythefish]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: twistedspoon

The more I read his changes of stance on cops, the less I like them. I don't believe that anyone goes from this:

@Twisted: And how would the last thing town would say differ?

Also, keep in mind, we're flavor cops which debateably has the usefulness of a VT.

still, 2 flavour cops should not exist. One would counterclaim the other and cause 2 myslynches for town. This should not happen

to this:

tricked into playing a psycology themed game....

anyways, I'll play 2 cops. I may have been convinced

and then back to this:

Twisted why are you voting me BTW? At the end of yesterday you said you could see two cops... yet now you're voting me so...

i thought i could but then the flip woke me up and i realised 2 cops was bizzare again

I'd join a chair wagon were one to emerge though, unless there is a particular reason why 'champion' is town-aligned

With the evidence for the last one being that

one of the cops flipped cop

.

But that's not all! Look at this:

i thought one of them was scum
I still do

I was happy with a BB lynch so why not hammer/lynch him so we have conf.scum parama tommrow if he does flip town?

This is a lie. When spoon voted BB, he thought 2 cops was possible. He also

wasn't

happy with a BB lynch; it was a "well at least it's better than me" vote:

well it looks either me or BB going down today (the deadline is very close and NL is bad) and I know I'm confirmed town so;

VOTE: BB

And if you look back over spoon's day 1, he mostly thought BB was town. He didn't like the case on him, and when Parama CC'd he thought BB was the more genuine of the two. When he was convinced there could be two cops, there is no way he can have been happy with BB's lynch as town.

His claim doesn't make him town. He could be
a) A scum inventor who invents bad things.
b) A scum inventor who wanted to look good (particularly after being a popular target yesterday).
c) A scum inventor who didn't even invent anything for me, just wanting to connect us.
d) Lying through his teeth.

Let's lynch him.

[Twistedspoon]

or town inventor. You missed that one...

[Twistedspoon]

If i wasn't an inventor (or did not target you) why would I think you could prove my claim

and if i did not invent god things (or think i did) same question

[Fishythefish]

Yep, you could of course be a town inventor. Your claim isn't why I think you're scum.

If you weren't an inventor or didn't target me you'd be WIFOMing by saying that you wouldn't claim something unconfirmable. Also, if you didn't target me you'd have the bonus that I look bad after you are lynched, and if you invented something for a partner they don't get implicated.

If you invented bad things you could still bank on a confirmable claim being better than none at all.

But if I had to bet, I'd say the most likely would be doing it for towncred.

[PeregrineV]

I am torn on twisted's loyalty. I am trying to put aside he is a foreign sheep, and I think I mostly do.

I want him around another night to see if he provides an invention (and by invention I am using the wiki definition) and to see if Fishy's appears (if it is a night action, will you be notified when night falls that you have it?).

On the other hand, the only two other inventor roles I've played with were scum. Granted, one was randomly assigned scum, but both were scum nonetheless (I played as scum in one, even).

Also weighing in this hand is the fact that in both cases the players were given a list of "inventions" that they had. Even if the actual assignment was random, the player knew what they had access to at the beginning and after each night. The wiki definition even says the player gets a list, so that's more weight on this hand.

All taken, I'm inclining towards scum inventor or liar. But, in case I'm over-applying the law of similar roles, what does everyone think?

On the "changed mind" thing I'm null, because I've changed my mind before, so I don't see that as a scum tell.

So, if we want to wait until (game) tomorrow to see if anything happens, I'm good with that.

Until then,

Unvote.
Vote:Twisted

Unvote: Twisted
FoS: Twisted

<--this is intent to vote, but I don't want him at L-1 yet