Mini 1243: Magician Mafia (Game Over)

[saulres]

Boy this game has a lot of different bandwagons. Here I just finished my analysis of the sotty vs. cc debate, coming up with sotty being scummier than cc, only to find that now the leading bandwagon is on ace. Time to read again.

Welcome, fishy, fishy, fishy, ooh!

[Amrun]

Instead, you could just read and find who YOU think is scum and vote for that person.

[saulres]

I already did that. Doesn't mean I shouldn't look for more scum. There's not just one.

[Junpei]

I already did that. Doesn't mean I shouldn't look for more scum. There's not just one.

You only have 1 scum read?

[Crab Canon]

Boy this game has a lot of different bandwagons. Here I just finished my analysis of the sotty vs. cc debate, coming up with sotty being scummier than cc, only to find that now the leading bandwagon is on ace. Time to read again.

Welcome, fishy, fishy, fishy, ooh!

You can still vote Sottyrulez. It's a very viable and excellent bandwagon to join.

[saulres]

Oh no, I have more. But I can only place one vote at a time.

Whenever a large bandwagon forms, though, I like to look at it to see who it's against, who's on it, why they're on it, and what I can tell from it. And if I find someone scummier than my current vote I may change it. Also if I see we're nearing deadline I may switch to a less-scummier read to avoid a no lynch.

Pedit: LOL @CC

[Crab Canon]

I'm serious

[sottyrulez]

Yeah okay I read Junpei's case on Anxiety and I still don't get it. Think he is town.

Amrun what do you think about him? And Vi, if you could act out something that I might get to show us your Anxiety read that would be awesome.

~Sotty

[Junpei]

Yeah okay I read Junpei's case on Anxiety and I still don't get it.

Can you state specifically where you are having troubles seeing my points? Saying "I don't get it" is pretty noncommittal and vague.

Actually no, I'd like 4nxi3ty to address my case, it'll help determine his alignment that way.

[Shift]

Busy right now, will post tomorrow.

[Guy_Named_Riggs]

Riggs, let me get this straight... You think the scumteam is ace, crab canon, and sottyrulez?

Ace, so you're saying you think the pro town thing to do is to say "this wagon is bad" with zero reasoning whatsoever?

Not Crabcannon.
I explained earlier that he was put into my post because I got confused writing my post. I tend to use the quick reply feature a lot and saw Crab's name in the post above, lost concentration, and inserted Crab into the post. I don't know who the third scum is but yes, ace and sotty.

[Vi]

And Vi, if you could act out something that I might get to show us your Anxiety read that would be awesome.

*makes fist*
*points thumb sideways*
*points thumb upward a bit*

[ace5993]

Ace is claiming we stole Vi's opinions, made them our own and expanded on them. This is blatantly not true, you just have to look at the reasons behind each of our votes for you for example. Here's a hint, they aren't even close to the same. Vi voted you for your weak wagon hop, something we didn't even mention. Ace is trying to link us to Vi in a negative way by suggesting we're sheeping without original thought of our own. I would also like to point out we were suspious of ace well before Vi's vote on him, but that messes up his point of us being the so called black sheep. So yeah.

That's... not why Vi voted me. Anyway, it's somewhat preposterous to claim you have "original thoughts" for jumping onto my wagon, the post where you were suspicious of me before the wagon was an incredibly weak "feels forced, going through the motions" classic scum argument. You just needed another scum pick so it wouldn't look like you were just jumping on the largest wagon. Hey wait a second... turns back a page... oh yeah, right after Vi expressed suspicion of me. And right after you posted that you agreed with Vi's content. Hmm...

You voted me because... Vi just voted me. With no other explanation. Seriously, look at your post.

It's almost like he wants to scare us into not following Vi in the future if the situation would arise. I wonder why, I mean he seems to agree Vi is town and if he truly finds bandwagoning scummy, us continuing to do it would look bad wouldn't it? And scum following town like a little lost puppy dog means that the hyposcum vote is still being influenced by the hypotown. In all, it makes me think he is seeing a potential town voting block and is looking to dirty it as soon as possible disregarding the facts of how it actually played out. Instead, he strips the actions down to be as minimal as possible (votes) and accuses us of locking onto Vi while providing no or "silly" content along the way without actually quoting it and proving his point (because he can't).

Just because I believe Vi is town DOES NOT mean I agree with his reads, nor do I think it's protown to wagon a player just because you think they're town. This is not a voting block at all, it's pretty fucking obvious sheeping. If you wanted me to quote the silly content you've posted, pretty much anything from your second post on fits the description. Would you like to start from the beginning? I'll break my no defending other players rule for a second to illustrate your scumminess. This is your very first point on CrabCanon:

Post 63 is a massive red flag for us. What makes them certain that Vi's not faking the post restriction? Reaction here reeks of inside knowledge. (Also I personally disliked the way they seemed to attempt to shut down this line of discussion by lumping it into an accusation that attempting to communicate with Vi is trying to modkill Vi.)

Why would you expect scum to have information on post restrictions if Vi (apparently the only one with a post restriction), is allegedly a town read? Bonus: Buzz words thrown in to make the case side better - inside information.

Trying to "stop communications with Vi" - what the fuck? This accusation is a BLATANT misrep of what CrabCanon said:

How about we all stop asking Vi

about her post restriction

in an effort to get her modkilled? It's pretty obvious what her restriction is, and there is nothing she can do about it. If you can't figure it out on your own, then that's your problem.

He

wasn't

trying to stop people from asking questions to Vi, only irrelevant and stupid questions ABOUT THE POST RESTRICTION. If anything it encourages communication by ending a page of pointless "discussion".

Virtually EVERY SINGLE POINT (and there aren't as many as sotty would make you think with the number of posts) is this bad.

Now I do

not

necessarily think bandwagoning is scummy in every instance. I believe bandwagoning, while also making irrelevant arguments/arguments based upon lies, misrepresentations, and generally completely invalid reasoning to push your wagon is VERY scummy.

[saulres]

Can someone explain the wagon on Ace for me?

Near as I can tell, it's there because Ace defended CC. Vi voted for him and then sotty and 4nxi3ty sheeped. Riggs joined it because -- well, because sotty's on it and Ace thinks sotty is scum and bussing Ace.

Do I have that right? Because I don't see what the big deal is. Is there something I'm missing?

[Locke Lamora]

Hi guys, sorry for my lack of activity. I have the day off tomorrow so I will be doing all catching up then.

[Vi]

Can someone explain the wagon on Ace for me?

Near as I can tell, it's there because Ace defended CC. Vi voted for him and then sotty and 4nxi3ty sheeped. Riggs joined it because -- well, because sotty's on it and Ace thinks sotty is scum and bussing Ace.

Do I have that right? Because I don't see what the big deal is. Is there something I'm missing?

*nods*
*opens mouth*

...

*slumps a little*
*closes mouth*

*returns to stage with Junpei doll*
*begins punching Junpei doll*
*drops Junpei doll suddenly*

*palms magic bullet*
*places magic bullet into magic gun*
*shoots self*

*goes offstage*
*returns onstage dressed as fakir*

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Vote Count 1.10

ace5993 (L-3) - Vi, sottyrulez, 4nxi3ty, Guy_Named_Riggs
Junpei (L-5) - Fishythefish, Amrun
4nxi3ty (L-5) - saulres, Junpei
sottyrulez (L-5) - Crab Canon, ace5993
Guy_Named_Riggs (L-5) - springlullaby, Shift
Shift (L-6) - Locke Lamora

Not Voting (0)

Deadline: Friday September 30 @ 1:00 PM Eastern
Countdown: (expired on 2011-09-30 13:00:00)

[Fishythefish]

Vi is awesome at her restriction. I applaud her.

sotty vs. CC is an epic win for CC

CC 63: don't modkill bait Vi. Doesn't seem unreasonable.

It all kicks off in sotty 139: has issues with CC 63. First one is that CC seems to know Vi isn't faking it – but that seems a natural assumption. Second is that CC is shutting down discussion. More true, but rather massively overstated – sotty changes “stop discussing Vi's PR, she might get modkilled” to “stop talking to Vi”. Also notes that CC is non-committal on Shift, calls this an associative tell. Very meh - why can't it just be CC not having a strong opinion?

CC 140: he claims to know who Vi is, which seems a pretty killer argument against “how did you know she wasn't faking the PR”. Points out the overstatement.

Sotty 147: in response to CC pointing out the overstatement in 139, says

It's funny, I knew your response was going to be something along those lines.

I think your statement can be interpreted to have that effect.

At the very least, you were attempting to cut off a line of discussion.

(About Vi's post restriction.)

Seems to me that the italicised is false, and the bolded is true. Lumping them together doesn't justify the former – it's clear that CC was not trying to shut down all discussion with Vi.

CC 155: saying the above.

Sotty 160: accuses CC of semantics, strawmanning and softy suspecting. Not seeing this. It seems to me that Sotty has changed on 63 from “stop talknig to Vi” to “stop discussing Vi's PR” - but he hasn't acknowledged that the original 139 was way off.

It all rather degenerates after that. Sotty resorts to generic statements like:

. Regradless, VP's twisting and squirming thought his pressure has been pretty bad. I don't think he has reacted well to our vote at all. What do you think?

My overall impression is that CC has argued this logically, and well. He hasn't gone overboard in attack against sotty, and kept it specific – mostly he's been refuting Sotty's weak points against him. Sotty is the opposite – resorting to lots of rather non-specific accusation of “semantics”, “strawmanning”, “twisting”, “squirming”, and being like “Fox News”. He's refused to engage on key points – notably he hasn't ever withdrawn the bizarre accusation that CC 63 tries to shut down

all

discussion with Vi, hasn't commented on how CC knowing who Vi is affects his point that CC probably has inside information, and hasn't bothered to explain how CC is arguing unfairly – which he manifestly is not.

Sotty moving off CC also feels off. If he believes half of what he says, there's no way Sotty can want ace lynched more than he wants CC lynched. He also generally seems to try to shut down the discussion with CC.

I expected to find this argument really unilluminating. But I don't see how Sotty and Zach can read CC's side and come to the conclusions they do. I thoroughly recommend a double iso of them, and a:

UNVOTE: VOTE: sottyrulez

Other things

@Anxiety: in sotty/CC, where do you think CC tried to twists sotty's words? You say that CC argued with sotty over his words, not his points – which points of sotty's did CC ignore? Also, what do you think of Junpei's case on you?
@Vi: your reason for voting CC is pretty reasonable – I also dislike CC's 86. Your CC-ace link is also pretty strong, at least for an associative tell with no flips. I don't really get how this translates into an ace vote rather than a CC vote.
@G_N_R: why do you think ace is scum?

[saulres]

If I understand you correctly, oh silent one, you're saying that Ace is being voted for because he was heavily attacking Junpei, then with no warning whatsoever dropped the case, incriminated himself by supporting CC and voting sottyrulez, and then -- returned as a Muslim?

Okay, I can't make sense of that last part. But if I've correctly interpreted the rest, then the only thing in addition to my 288 is that he dropped his case on Junpei. Possibly based on:

I see nothing by Junpei that makes me want to change wagons.

Do I have it straight now?

pedit: I only skimmed the fish's post but I find it fascinating how much it parallels the research I did. Will look at it in more detail later.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

springlullaby has been prodded.

[sottyrulez]

Sotty moving off CC also feels off. If he believes half of what he says, there's no way Sotty can want ace lynched more than he wants CC lynched. He also generally seems to try to shut down the discussion with CC.

Yes, Crab Canon can be the only person we think is scum, and we can't shift our efforts towards someone else who we also happen to think is scum who has more momentum bandwagon wise. (And is also going to disturbing levels of effort to defend said Crab.)

[Amrun]

Fishy, do you think CC is scum or town?

[sottyrulez]

And in response to Ace since I can't be bothered to make a wall of my own to respond to him, in response to the claim that our suspicions of him formed out of thin air following Vi's vote, I will point you to Iso 2, which while briefly elaborating on suspicion of you, was the result of a pretty good amount of discussion between myself and Sotty about why we thought you were scum.

Just because reasoning was not attached to said vote doesn't mean it's not there.

[4nxi3ty]

i didn't want to go through the whole case so i just picked the points i felt were most important at this juncture.

CC's vote:

...votes don't have to be used for pressure.

for instance seeing aces response to my revote.

when i originaly placed my vote on CC i thought the crab was null and was trying to gauge ace. afterwards sottyrulez brought up some valid points

i stated my reasons for voting CC and if you disagree with sotty's points that's okay for now.

blatant misrep:

do you agree with junpei, that not answering questions=scum?

or maybe ignoring some questions to avoid circular arguements is better?

this post was mostly directed at CC to figure out the responses that were going on at the time. it was not my intention to misreprensent you though i do see how it can come off that way.

*shakes pant leg*
*collects firework that falls out of pant leg*
*aims rocket between Crab Canon and sottyrulez*
*lights rocket*
*runs in other direction*

*waits for smoke to clear*
*

confirms vote on ace5993

*

good aim

unvote,vote: ace

.

i'll let you decide if there was a good reason to stop the 1v1 between sottyrulez and crab canon. Also i had already recieved a reaction post from ace.

[Fishythefish]

Yes, Crab Canon can be the only person we think is scum, and we can't shift our efforts towards someone else who we also happen to think is scum who has more momentum bandwagon wise. (And is also going to disturbing levels of effort to defend said Crab.)

You were the second vote on ace. Hardly a momentous bandwagon. And since then, you've been totally ignoring CC, except this gem:

what do you feel I'm twisting then exactly?

Everything?

Care to share your thoughts on Ace's play thus far?

This really doesn't read like the play of someone who is convinced CC is scum and is trying to demonstrate that to the town.

Fishy, do you think CC is scum or town?

Well, if sotty is scum he is probtown because of their fight. If not, I'd still guess town but with much less confidence. His side of the argument was exactly how I would expect town to do it, but nothing there would be that hard for scum to fake. I disliked his post 86 on Junpei's start to the game (the reason Vi voted him) - I felt he expected too much of a RQS and was going after someone for lack of content rather early - but nothing else in his play makes me thinks he's scum.