Mini 1246 - Bizarro Mafia: ...Mate! Who won?

[ace5993]

I suggest we keep an unofficial vote count of "day votes", which helps in several ways. Voting blind isn't the best idea.

Vote: mozamis

[ace5993]

Unofficial "Vote" Count

Darox

(1) - Pads

mozami

(1) - ace5993

ace5993

(1) - mozami

VisceraEyes

(1) - Whiskers

---------------------------

ps I spent a lot of my last game arguing how about gut is more important than logic in mafia but I got lynched so I'll skip that argument this time.
But yeah I like to go on instinct -in a game where you it's very difficult to accuratley assess the validity of any statement, logic is severely limited.

...So what about my play gives you a bad feeling. I have a bad feeling you're implying gut reads to mean "X is scum but I can't say why".

mozami - Asking how we are going to find scum (#11), early OMGUS vote, early (bad) self-defense, I believe this requires a wagon.

[ace5993]

I feel we've already proven how dumb RQS is since absolutely no discussion has been generated from it so far. Everyone should really start "pretend voting" or this game is going to become messy. Junpei - What is a negative of creating vote counts in this game?

I still think everyone should be voting mozami right now. Also InternetStranger's #27 is bad fencesitting - reluctance to vote his scumbuddy perhaps?

[ace5993]

lets just kill mozamis? RANDOM KILLING is FUN

Hardly random.

I think Junpei is a little butthurt that in the one chance RQS had to completely overpower RVS it completely failed. Also Darox is correct, they are absolutely useless questions not intended to spur conversation in any way (nor is there evidence of the questions helping Junpei in any way).

VisceraEyes - No, I do not support a lynch on anyone right now, but yes, I do believe mozamis is scum and deserves a wagon on him.

[ace5993]

Unofficial "Vote" Count

Darox

(1) - Pads

mozami

(1) - Darox

ace5993

(1) - mozami

VisceraEyes

(1) - Whiskers

Otolia

(1) - VisceraEyes

InternetStranger

(1) - ace5993

Now that the scum kill has happened there really should be no excuse not to let everyone know who you're voting for.

Mozamis' recent posts have been looking up so I'm going to shift my attention to InternetStranger. Of his three posts the first was explaining mechanics, the second was waffling on mozamis (the first person with a case on them), and the third was saying mozamis was scum for just a terrible reason. I feel pretty confident in

Unvote, Vote: InternetStranger

. Keep in mind that we have a mere 72 hours to decide on a tonight's lynch, everyone really needs to stop with the ridiculous garbage now (looking at you hiplop).

[ace5993]

@hiplop - Firstly lolmeta, and secondly

you're

the one being pretentious by expecting us to listen to you when you're posting garbage.

I prefer to keep the votes undeclared, at least day 1. Youre going to get more information from possible scum voting blocks from the reveal tomorrow than these big public executions. Scum know this. Scum are TERRIFIED of this. If scum dont know how townies are going to vote, who would they vote for? Do they jump in two together on someone? Do they spread the votes out? So much information is going to be present tomorrow, but its all going down the toilet if we let the scum manipulate our votes during the day.

This is not differences in gameplay opinions, this is just outright scum. You're basically saying we shouldn't post reads D1 to try to scare scum into not knowing who to vote for? What InternetStranger is suggesting is an EXCELLENT way for any scum to blend in:

1. They don't have to defend themselves because no one's attacking them
2. They can get away with doing absolutely nothing D1 (arguably the most important day in the game)
3. Wagon relationship analysis ("scum voting blocks"), isn't even usable until we get a scum flip, and even so tone and timing of the votes is more important than the votes themselves
4. Far higher chance of a mislynch because scum aren't forced into wagoning one of their own
5. Far higher chance of lynching a PR because they have no chance to claim

And for what? Some

literally

useless VCA.

I will be voting InternetStranger tonight and I suggest you all do the same.

[ace5993]

@Junpei - If you say so, just keep in mind that:

1. We have a 100% chance of a mislynch tonight.
2. There's really no pressure for scum to "fit in" with their vote at all.
3. We're going to be back at square one tomorrow.

And yes when I say "reads" in the other post I do know he said individual votes, however if random individual reads don't form into some type of collaborative effort by town to catch scum they mean nothing. Basically right now see how most people are posting useless crap? It's because they can. InternetStranger even waffled on his reads in that post, first it was "Oh yeah the people who are doing something are probably scum trying to be town leader", and the people who weren't doing anything are "probably scum because they're useless". In any event there's been NO RESPONSE TO IT FROM ANYONE. Oh and for the record I do not currently believe there are any "scum white knights", I'm guessing EVERY SINGLE SCUM is one of the ones not doing anything right now. Why? Because they can, and because InternetStranger is preaching it.

Ace calling VCA useless makes me laugh by the way.

This

is actually an interesting misrep because if you look at what I actually posted "point number 3", I mentioned that "tone and timing of the votes is more important than the votes themselves". So now, I did not say VCA is useless, I said that InternetStranger's "strategy" makes it useless.

idk if you know what pretentious means after that post.

Pretentious - Attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed

It's true that it usually refers to someone attempting to rise above their peers but it can also refer to anyone trying to rise above the skill level they possess, regardless of whether they're trying to place above others or to fit in. You've made it very clear that you think everyone should follow you for no reason so I don't think the disclaimer in the second half of the sentence is even necessary. There are very few people capable of playing the way you are effectively and you are

not

one of them. I've played with you before and you were decent in that game so it's extremely disappointing to come in here and see you randomly flailing around like a headless chicken. Get your feet back down onto the ground, start explaining your reads with actual reasons (just saying "meta" by itself is not a reason, nor does it imply that you've done any scumhunting, nor is it grounds for a lynch by itself), and quit messing around.

[ace5993]

@Darox - No.

Darox that is so wrong you should feel bad. You really should feel bad.

Ace, you said specifically "the literally useless VCA." first I want to know, are you denying that?

No I am not denying it, I believe the vote count analysis proposed by InternetStranger (and championed by Darox/Otolia) is literally useless. Otolia's original suggestion just seemed like a poor philosophy however this new thing is highly dangerous and should be killed with fire. I mean look at it, Darox has just actually used it as an excuse to DO NOTHING THIS ENTIRE DAY. Surely you cannot think that's pro-town?

[ace5993]

Ace, here are my issues with what you've said.

1) There is not a 100% chance of a mislynch, there is simply a chance.

True, however one that is much smaller than usual. Scum are far less likely to vote their buddies when there's no pressure to do so.

2) There is lots of pressure for scum to fit in, because if they don't they will be exposed. Forces scumhunting and reads and such as well as relational analysis.

*Looks around*

I believe we've done less scumhunting here than in an average game of the same length, and some people have done none. Relational analysis is really not useful the way we're playing this game because scum don't have to put a hierarchy into their reads. If you're posting three reads it's easy as hell to slip a scumbuddy in there and make it look natural. It's a lot more awkward to have to decide whether or not to push a lynch on said scumbuddy, or how much emphasis they want to put on their read. Without this, there really isn't any (or at least much less of a) discernable relationship between two players, because neither player has to make a decision about how to handle that relationship in thread. Relational analysis is pretty much WIFOM when there's no flip here. By the way InternetStranger DID NOT promote giving reads:

A vote count and the subsequent kill is going to give us a shit ton more information than some far reaching bullshit reads are every going to give.

3) The statement we're going back to square one is err because the premises are err.

False.

4) You said me saying that you called the VCA useless was a blatant misrep, but have just turned on that and flatly contradicted yourself.

You said I called VCA useless. I did not do this, I said that this particular method will yield useless VCA. HUGE difference.

5) Darox is just being... for lack of a better word, foolish, and his post is independent of the "don't proclaim votes" idea. It is not the same or even similar.

A vote count and the subsequent kill is going to give us a shit ton more information than some far reaching bullshit reads are every going to give.

A kill and lynch without meaningful content from anybody would have been a fucking gold mine for analysis.

They're exactly the same thing.

[ace5993]

Ace, you have NO IDEA regarding as to what im suggesting. Whats the easiest way for scum to skate by the first few days? To go along with whomever is calling for a lynch the loudest. (ie: See Mozamis above).

Except oh wait, you just pointed it out so he didn't skate by. On the other hand if it had never happened there would have done nothing to analyze at all. HMMMM...

Think about this Ace, if there is no vote promotion, who are the scum going to vote for? Will they throw a single vote on a quiet buddy thinking that there wouldnt be a big mass to lynch them? Or would they gang up on a lynch target? Would they spread their votes out. The information we can get is phenomenal! But youre promoting a follow the leader approach where whoever is the loudest wins. What information does that get us? You think you have the balls to lynch a White Knight? If Junpei or Pads mislynch some poor fool, whats your case on proving that they are scum? Hey, it wasnt their fault that people secretly voted for who they thought was scum, right? So the scum get to hide in the wagon all day. Then what happens.

OK here's the options you listed:

1. Scum may bus one of their buddies that they don't think will be lynched
2. Scum may form a voting wagon
3. Scum may spread their votes out

THIS DOESN'T HELP US CATCH SCUM! There's no way to tell which of these scum are going to do. Your analysis boils down to:

1. Scum may do anything

Relational analysis is nice, but we need a way to catch one scum first. If you do not have a scum read, there is no relational analysis. I'm curious to know

how

you got your current scum reads. Was it from people posting their opinions about others in the thread? Yet VCA will tell us more than any bullshit reads huh?

Also noting that you're placing complete blame of any mislynch onto only the people starting the wagon. Trying to find an easy way to get rid of the threats to you?

By doing it this way at first, we get to see what the scum are thinking. I was hoping to keep my ideas quieter than this so that I could trap a scum during the votes, but now that you are doing what Darox says and spooking the scum, I have to WIFOM the fuck out of it now.

Spooking the scum? Yes I'm spooking them, because now they have to do something. Also you should confirm/deny that your proposition is exactly the same as Darox's because I believe Junpei is misunderstanding you.

At this point, I know for SURE who im voting for, but im not going to tell you or anyone else. I want to see where peoples suspicions lie. If I see a three man lynch on a notorious player who took a lot of heat today, its a good place to look for scum. If I see someone voting for a quiet lurker? Good place to check for scum. A lurker suddenly voting someone that appears REALLY random? Thats almost guaranteed scum.

I thought everyone was supposed to be quiet lurkers today? Isn't that what you attempted to be? No one would have taken a lot of heat if people weren't "wagoning" on them. All your ideas stem from discussion in the thread that YOU ATTEMPTED NOT TO BE A PART OF.

Do you still think that im trying to put down a smokescreen for the scum Ace? Im actively setting up a trap for the scum. Blind vote count analysis plus daytime discussions will ferret out the scum faster than any other method in this setup. Other than screaming and flailing about, what are you suggesting? Whats your plan, Ace?

I must admit you have set a cunning plan. Your plan seemingly lifts you and the other lurkers above the pool of suspicion because doing nothing is OK. However you can only have scum reads on people who are doing something. I mean think about it, you expected today to pass without you doing ANYTHING, you have explicitly stated that. If you expected everyone else to do nothing today as well, how did you expect to find scum? Your proposition is nothing more than a way for scum to skate by through the entire game.

[ace5993]

Yeah VE's little defense right there is definitely not giving me any town vibes. I'm also glad to see that Darox rescinded on his promise of being absolutely useless today. I might switch my vote to VE if there's enough support for it except OH WAIT WE CAN'T ALIGN OUR VOTES UNTIL AFTER IT'S TOO LATE... Never mind, guess I'm staying on IS.

P-EDIT: What Junpei said also.

[ace5993]

Considering the open BW on IS is basically you.. you can change your vote to anyone and they're the largest BW. So you can go ahead and switch to VE.

Well it looks like mozami is also on the wagon and TehBrawlGuy would be a fool to go for Darox over IS when there's an established wagon on IS so... no. I'm going to sleep so I guess this is also my last post of Day 1:

I strongly suggest a ton of people vote InternetStranger (or really any wagon you guys can come up in the next few hours) so scum can't influence the kill. TAKE THE POWER BACK!

Lol yeah but seriously vote IS.

[ace5993]

There are no votes during the day.

I'd like you to post a comprehensive VCA right now please, and also

before

anyone else posts one. If everyone else could refrain from doing this before Darox posts again it would be much appreciated.

@Wasabi - No, both to voting for Whiskers and the idea. I was under the impression that this was a completely open setup.

[ace5993]

Vote: Darox

.

Complete reads coming soon.

[ace5993]

Actually I have time right now:

TehBrawlGuy and mozamis both read heavily town for simply being on the IS wagon. I do not think scum would have gone for an IS vote knowing full well that there was a definite possibility he would be lynched, especially in a game where a 3-man wagon got the lynch.

Additionally mozamis is confirmed town because with IS looking like he'd have a couple votes on him there's NO WAY IS would throw his vote towards a bus.

Pads - INCONSISTENCY. Only posts on mozamis were saying "not sure one way or another" followed by "I'm giving mozamis a pass today for posting content". His suspects were ThirdKoopa and Darox. Huh? Rather he votes with IS-scum (as a possible IS counterwagon attempt?). Heavily leaning scum.

Darox - Refusal to analyze the vote count, which was supposed to be his main source of scumhunting, is just fucking terrible. He's still refusing to basically do anything at all. This is not VI play, it looks WAY more like calculated scum play. Heavily leaning scum.

Wasabi - Confirmed town, his comment today doesn't make sense from a scum standpoint.

Otolia - Probably town. Don't like his gameplay views but he posted alright content and the vote on wasabi makes sense.

hiplop - Scummy - relying solely on "META" arguments and really not doing a damn thing yesterday. Not as scummy as Pads or Darox but still leaning scum.

Junpei - Good content and I can definitely sympathize with the vote on hiplop. Town.

VisceraEyes - Meh, generally reads as town. I didn't really like his defense when Darox attacked him but his playstyle tends toward extreme overreactions anyway so I'm willing to overlook that.

ThirdKoopa - No read.

Would lynch either Pads or Darox immediately if possible.

[ace5993]

Internet Stranger's Post 145 reads like a Wiki page of ScumTells. We got blanket rejections, fearmongering, chainsaw defenses of the lurkers, ad hominems, and appeals to emotion. Where do I start? Nowhere, excpet to say that a vote on him is starting to look like something great.

Wait WHAT THE FUCK? This was the last thing Pads posted with any vote or read on someone.

Unvote, VOTE: PADS

Everything else can wait, this is the lynch for today.

[ace5993]

Mozamis' iso was awful and I don't regret my choice at the time.

Specific posts that were awful please.

Actually meh, I don't think there's anything you could say that could possibly convince me of your towniness. I guess you could try convincing other people though.

Indeed, I did. What can I say? The behavioral analysis on InternetStranger showed scum, the content analysis on InternetStranger showed scum. But, I just didn't like the wagon. Entirely too many people were ready to lynch him too easily. Looked like scum piling on a mislynch.

Except your post where you said "a vote on IS is starting to look like a great thing" happened

after

all the people currently on the IS wagon were set on their vote. I have no doubt that you didn't vote IS because he had too many votes on him though.

[ace5993]

Junpei I don't see anything scummy about TehBrawlGuy's post. Are you trying to say that TehBrawlGuy and Pads did exactly the same thing? Because they really didn't at all.

Also your second quote is a blatant misrep, he was

saying

(past tense) that he had been leaning Darox as best scum read. Not necessarily that Darox was his best scum read right then. Also this is from the same post:

Darox/IS (since I'm not going to announce my vote) > VE IMO

What do you think of Pads Junpei?

[ace5993]

Otolia, if I could I'd vig you for that post. Even though I think you're town >_>

I'd like to hear some justification for Darox being town from anyone who thinks that. Are these the same people who thinks that it's a tragedy IS was lynched?

[ace5993]

Pads/hiplop scumteam. Thoughts?

and the fact that [Pad's vote] is with Internet Stranger, a confirmed mafia

This is the "less reasonable" quote from Junpei.

Rather he votes with IS-scum (as a possible IS counterwagon attempt?).

While this is part of my reasonable attack.

I know there has to be that one guy on your wagon who's case isn't as solid, but I'm surprised you picked Junpei. I probably would have gone for TehBrawlGuy myself.

[ace5993]

Oh wait, TehBrawlGuy is actually on your side. No wonder I didn't remember his case on you to be very appealing >_>

Anyway, the fact that

you

weren't aware of this suggests that you didn't actually re-read. Which further suggests that you half-heartedly picked a name based on vague memories at best.

@hiplop - As long as you're voting Pads today that's fine. It's more likely Pads/Darox anyway.

[ace5993]

Welp.

Vote: Darox

.

[ace5993]

The reasons for why we should have done that is to give the scum the opportunity to out themselves through a voting bloc.

lmao.

Is there enough support on Darox to not do an in-depth analysis of what little content he has? I've posted quite a few general comments and also I'm lazy.

[ace5993]

Pads you are on the Darox wagon which I started. Your case stems directly from mine. Are you going to continue being on the good wagon or switch your vote?

[ace5993]

Your case stems directly from mine.

Does it now? I realize I'm one of the few people in the game not parroting you, so you might be confused, but I've come up with my own points against him, most recently the Otolia kill and the soft defense of InternetStranger on Day 1.

Oh I'm well aware you came up with your own points on him, I just recall that I saw your original vote on Darox and thinking "yep, there's my main case on the person that isn't you in so many words".

By the way exactly who is parroting me. mozamis and VisceraEyes perhaps? Is there anyone else?

"...at which point me and posse will lynch you.", is that how that sentence ends? Sadly, I'm already a dead man walking so you don't have anything to threaten me with.

I'm not trying to threaten you, I'm trying to present to you the possibility that people aren't following me just because of "insert X reason here", they're following me because they see the logic and reason in my cases and are evaluating everything I say on a case by case basis, as I would hope most people do under all circumstances.

I mean look, replace "leader" with "White Knight" and you're saying exactly the same thing IS did. It's a pro-scum argument. If no one else is trying to form wagons then no other wagons will be formed. It's not a matter of me "leading the town" with my army of 3 on the IS lynch, it's a matter of me trying to make sure that the lynch is primarily decided by everyone in the game as a whole, and not primarily by scum, as it would if there were many little wagons. If you want to call me a leader in this sense then yes, I am leading the town, but not to lynches, simply away from IS's philosophy.

Now admittedly I do find something like VE's #225 scummy - I'm always cautious of people sheeping others for no good reason, however the scrutiny should lie on the person doing the sheeping, and not the person they are sheeping. What I

don't

appreciate in your argument is that you're trying to make it seem like people should place less importance on my reasoning simply because others are agreeing with me. This I find an invalid argument, and something I will argue against whether I think you are scum or town.

One question - Is your main issue my actions, or the actions of the people who are allegedly "following me"?

[ace5993]

hiplop did you really vote for the un-cc'd doctor? Really?

mozamis is town.

TehBrawlGuy was pushing Darox even during the period where Pads hadn't claimed, he's town.

Pads is town.

Junpei went from concerns about Darox D1 to somehow concluding that Darox is "likely town" in 238 (which also didn't have an explanation behind it), no other read posted after - this is definitely a potential bus. Junpei needs to justify his vote.

Wasabi is town.

hiplop... really? On the one hand, wtf, but on the other hand I don't see a scum motivation behind it. Needs to explain his vote before further analysis.

VisceraEyes - No rationale for his vote in thread (in fact quite the opposite), plus he was going to vote for Darox in thread last I checked... Possible OMGUS for my #290?

I'm unsure between Junpei and VisceraEyes as my pick for the last scum right now, I'll wait for them to justify their respective votes before looking in more detail.

[ace5993]

Not impressed with Junpei OR VisceraEyes' response, will look into everything with more detail over the weekend. Sorry for lack of content, busy etc.

[ace5993]

I actually agree that Junpei is the best lynch for today.

Vocally agreed with IS's gameplay strategy all of D1, then kept quite about the issue D2.

#124 - Darox has little content and is scummy.
#144 - Defending Darox (odd, because all the posts around it were condemning him).
#171 - Darox is no longer scummy, instead he's "foolish".
#205 - Looks like Darox is scummy again.
#238 - Darox is likely town

Busses Darox (who was obviously the lynch) for town-cred.

Also note that Junpei called out TBG (allegedly bussing someone who wasn't his strongest read) for doing exactly the same thing.

Vote: Junpei

[ace5993]

Junpei:

TehBrawlGuy

Junpei voted

IS

Darox, and the bold shows that he didn't really feel that he was mafia after all. The underlined shows that he is making up some excuse for this that is in no way valid.

Lets see..

113 says Darox and Whiskers top his scum list.

"Otolia, Ace, TehBrawlGuy, Junpei, VisceraEyes, and

Mozamis

all get a pass from me today." Taken from 134. Already stated my other problems previously with this post.

196 and Internet Stranger is a good lynch now for having a post full of just about every wiki scum tell apparently.

Now he wants to policy lynch Darox who is likely town.

I really find his mozami vote out of place, and the fact that it is with Internet Stranger, a confirmed mafia... wow, you're right, something is wrong here, could scum have slipped up this bad? Pads may have signed his coffin with that vote.

I voted for Darox because I didn't find him very town, and there were no other good options. He was the clear lynch, so I piled my vote on to make sure it went through.

Why would I bus Darox in this situation? I don't know why I would when I could justify my vote elsewhere.

Also noted that this bombastic smear campaign you've started on me again is almost identical in tone to when you were feverishly defending InternetStranger. Do you actually have a case on me? Or is it just that I'm voting you and previously got your two scum buddies lynched?

[ace5993]

124 - yes he had little content then, and was scummy for that same reason, as were you. It was early and that was a slightly scummy read.

OK

144 - LOL no. Unlike some people (scum), I don't push on everything that is in my best interests. If I see something that is wrong, even if it implicates someone whom I think is scum, I will question. You see Ace, it is what we call scum hunting. It is also called not being 100% sure that Darox is scum. If I let everything pass that was against a scummy read then there'd be a lot more scum wins.

Alright, so you don't deny that you were defending Darox, just that you don't consider it odd.

171 - I never said he wasn't scummy, I said that your summation was wrong. I agreed with the idea, and you are saying that he was abusing it to not be active or post content, which I disagreed with, for reasons that conversation portrays. Another misrep.

Defending Darox against yet another case because you felt the case was wrong, oh but he's still scummy.

205 - He never wasn't scummy, and I didn't simply say "he is scummy", I stated reasons and facts to support my claim.

Your case (shielding himself behind something to be able to play terribly), is remarkably similar to what you defended him against in 171.

238 - I meant likely town in the context that Pads was scum throwing a policy lynch at Darox. Scum don't policy lynch scum pals, Ace. But.. as you perhaps have shown in this game... they bus their whole team.

Oh so he was then town because someone you thought was scum was attacking him. BUT, that only applies to Pads? Doesn't seem to stop you from thinking that I "double bussed"

Town; consider for a moment that Ace double bussed. Look at the playerlist and tell me if there is anyone left after Pads and I are gone (Pads is now gone) that pose any threat to Ace. I'm serious, he is about to usurp the town by getting rid of the last vocal player.

Fear-mongering. Did you really just call yourself the only vocal player left in the game? So I'm scummy for wanting to lynch a vocal player, but you're not scummy even though you want to lynch me (a vocal player)? The fuck is this? Also note that there's no case on me at all, it's just that "if ace is scum, he might win"

Unjustified fear-mongering.

#328 - Yes, the strategy was obviously a scum-front. I correctly called that both IS and Darox were hiding behind it. I have no idea why Whiskers died, I didn't see any "stron scumhunting" trend in his early play. There's something interesting here though - why did scum think Otolia was a PR? I certainly didn't see any tells in his play. Perhaps you had an in to what scum were thinking at that point? By the way, it's cute how much you overrate yourself, if I

was

scum wanting to take out the person I thought was the best remaining player it wouldn't be you.

So right now we have:

My case on you - Waffling (or defending when you still thought he was scum?), on Darox, last expressed read was a town read, followed by a vote, sudden completely unjustified OMGUS attack on me that is literally only there because I'm pushing a case on you, this reads like panicked last scum about to lose

Your case on me - I might be scum, and scum have been NK'ing the better players/PRs in the game



Also note that Junpei has completely backed off of whatever other reads he has (thought there was a scumread on hiplop), to push a lynch on me just because I'm pushing a lynch on him. I mean come on.

[ace5993]

When you do please include a clear and concise case on me so I can actually defend myself, how does that sound?

[ace5993]

First point (other than "ok") which you bring up is a horrid skew of the facts. Defending someone is the act of protecting them from harm with the intent to do simply that, protect them. What I was doing was not in that intent, rather to point out a bad post someone else made with the intent of finding scum. You interpreted my post the way you wanted to to paint me as scum, but what I did is far from defending Darox.

Second point is the same thing. You took the two instances of me scumhunting in regards to something that was posted that implicated Darox and are bloating it to try to push a lynch on me. Unfortunately for you, I won't sit down and get mislynched, and you won't win this game. As this conversation goes on, I get more and more sure that you are scum, as you are pushing such distorted ideas onto the gamestate, abusing your previous action of lead to do so.

If you really consider either of your defenses of Darox to constitute scumhunting I am worried about what statements of yours wouldn't constitute scumhunting in your mind.

PlayerX: This is why Darox is scum
Junpei: Oh no that's not valid

That's scumhunting, but not defending? Yeah, OK.

Third point is that I was preaching an argument that I discredited earlier which is completely untrue. The only thing in 171 pertaining to Darox is a sentence about how you misrepped his statement on how we should claim votes or not.

Explain what "Darox was just being foolish" meant? You went from "Darox is just being foolish", to "Darox is pretending to be a VI". I see this as a contradiction.

Fourth point is highly erroneous as well. I thought that player X was scum, and given their actions, by relation tells, I could not possibly see Darox as scum. This is very different than what I am now saying. Now I am saying that, given that players Y and Z are scum, by relational tells, I see you as scum along with your current actions.

Uh-huh.

You may call it fear-mongering, but what it really is is me stating your real plan. Yes I am definitely the largest obstacle in your path and I have no problem saying it. I do believe that I have been the player most on your back Ace this game. Even suspecting a connection between you and Darox a while ago. But alas, Tracker must die, and you didn't view me as a Tracker-prospect so you couldn't kill me.

If you were scum, who is the biggest obstacle in the road for you?

The summation of my case on you is so awful that I hope that no one reads it, I'm not going to restate my position, read this post and others. My hiplop scumread was based off of his erratic play. To be honest, I haven't been too sure of myself ever since IS flipped scum. I couldn't understand it, and then Darox flipped scum, and I was confused once again why scum would act like that. But this... this fits the puzzle so well, I would be oh so surprised if there is a better fit than this.

Absolute bullshit. You are first making the assumption that I'm scum and then seeing if it's possible. That's not how it works. There's an outside chance of anyone being scum. TehBrawlGuy I would consider a stronger player than you in this game so far.

pedit: My case revolves around the fact that you being scum fits perfectly. It solves the case. I do not have damning evidence, what I have is circumstantial, but luckily this is not the US courts, and we can convict on it. You have nothing better, actually what you have is arguably worse. I bet when hiplop called me scum your mouth watered. I'll ISO you later to see if I can find obvious bus hints, but given day talk, I don't know what I could find.

It's not even circumstantial evidence Junpei, it's bullshit. What you're doing IS LITERALLY FEAR-MONGERING. "It would be bad if ace is scum". That's the extent of your argument. THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE ARGUING. Hell, having Wasabi as scum fits the fucking puzzle perfectly and solves the case. You are spouting nonsense.

As I've said, this screams of panicked scum about to lose.

Fixed tags.

[ace5993]

I've said all I have to say. Your argument is crap, hopefully most people see it that way as well, but if not and if I get lynched today you'll just get lynched tomorrow. We win either way

[ace5993]

Junpei I'd also like to note that you had no problem with my case on you until I started pushing for your lynch. The case didn't change and you gave a bad defense in #298. I stated that your response was bad, still had no problem with me at #314. In #315 I restate the same case in more depth and

announce that you're my lynch target

and BAM, ace has to die. You never had a problem with the case, only that you're going to be lynched.

[ace5993]

Yeah sorry, I've been completely bogged down recently but my workload vanished so I'll be back to posting now:

I still don't think TehBrawlGuy or mozamis are scum, or at least they're not the best people to look at today.

Between VisceraEyes and hiplop - let's look at the choice there was between me and Junpei yesterday. Town would be trying to scumhunt to figure out who was the best lynch between us. Scum wouldn't care who was lynched.

VisceraEyes had a clear opinion and a good reasoning process (360, 365, 374) which his vote supports.

hiplop switched his vote back and forth ALL DAY yesterday; this is scum not caring about who gets lynched between two townies. AND, he attempted to line up both of our lynches, knowing full well that we were both town. Add this to his constant reiteration of "I AM TOWN" all game and I'm pretty sure we're looking at our last scum:

Vote: hiplop

[ace5993]

I'm a little bit surprised as well, but I'm guessing I've been left alive because scum (hiplop) was planning to put the lynch on me today.

[ace5993]

Anyway, what Ace said. I'm not terribly motivated right now, considering I think Hiplop's our last scum. Expect re-read if I'm in MYLO.

+1

[ace5993]

Re-reading...

[ace5993]

Posting because I was prodded, would like to withhold my opinion on Ace V. VE until post kill.

Why not mention mozamis?

[ace5993]

OK so I find TehBrawlGuy pretty much town. I asked him that last question because I had a slight suspicion that he was avoiding mentioning mozamis because no one else had mentioned him, and why would scum want to push for a lynch that was unpopular at the time? Looked a little like he was waiting to see who town found scummiest and then he would cast his vote there. His answer is direct and clear though, I don't think fence-sitting scum would answer like that. Nothing else that he has done has been scummy at all imo.

mozamis - Sheeped me D1 and D2, before declaring that he would not sheep me anymore after I led the lynch on a townie. After that he... basically continued to sheep me? His play is scummy, however, I just don't understand his vote on IS as coming from a townie. This is the first time I'm even considering that either mozamis or TBG could have bussed IS so that should tell you something about how much of a towntell I think this is.

VisceraEyes - I've had trouble reading him all game and still am having a bit of trouble to be honest. His play today strikes me as solidly pro-town but I can't say the same about anything before today.

Gut tells me it's mozamis, brain tells me it has to be VisceraEyes. Right now I'm going to say that I think my brain is overthinking the potential for scum to have sheeped me D1 on IS because that is literally the only thing that gives mozamis any town-cred in my eyes.

Vote: mozamis

In my opinion we need to generate as much discussion as possible before time is up imo because this is the first read I haven't been totally confident about (although maybe that's a good thing considering my recent track record ).

[ace5993]

No VE, I am not scum >_>

I'm pretty convinced that it's mozamis now, why? Look at the post right before TBG died. It was VE asking TBG a question. Would scum really ask someone a question and then immediately kill them? Probably not.

I also agree with VE that it's a little weird mozamis switched his vote to me as soon as he saw no-one else was going to vote VE.

[ace5993]

why so much activity from you earlier in the game ace, and so little Today? ps I genuinely did think you were town earlier, so massive props to your Double Bus strategy. But you have been far to cautious on the final day, trying to let me and Visc slug it out, and then plump your vote on the scummier looking one. Close but no cigar

Definitely not cautious at all, I went from a slight read on you to a pretty confident one. It's based mainly on POE because I'm convinced VE is town but still. I also like how YOU are the one today who has flip-flopped between me and VE depending on what the popular opinion was at the time and have only now become talkative right when it looks like you might be lynched.

[ace5993]

InternetStranger's first quote is weak as hell, I believe his "vote" on mozamis was mild bussing (remember, he was just agreeing with me at the beginning) that escalated when people called him out on it. Darox never acted on his suspicions on mozamis so that could easily be distancing. Saying my posting has decreased over the course of the game is a bad argument, everyone's posting has decreased. Admittedly I have not been the most active today but I've still stated all my thoughts.

I'll repeat once again: mozamis has bussed me the ENTIRE GAME until my vote landed on him, after which he becomes super-active in trying to deter suspicion on him. Why weren't you this helpful the rest of the game mozamis?

[ace5993]

*sheeped

[ace5993]

The fact that I am still here in LYLo is one major strike against you of course, as I've been your biggest supporter all game.

Right, I kept you alive just so I could turn on you at LyLo? That doesn't make too much sense

[ace5993]

no, you kept me alive becuase I've supported you all game and you hoped I'd be dumb enough to back you in LYLO.

Back me in voting you?

[ace5993]

how much time we got left? Or have people made up their mind? Have you read my ISO Visc or Ace? Have you EVER seen anyone play scum like that?
Props to ace i guess.

Timeline of events:

mozamis sheeps me.
A mozamis lynch begins looking like a possibility.
mozamis starts playing "properly", and conveniently with a healthy dose of fence-sitting. With a lack of a strong townie opinion to latch on to first he voted TehBrawlGuy, when that went nowhere he switched to VisceraEyes, and when he saw I wasn't going to join him on that wagon he switched to me.

This is pretty textbook scum play, sheeping followed by extreme difficulty in forming an opinion/rapid wagon-hopping when you can't sheep. The only thing that threw me off was that you were on the IS wagon, but maybe scum thought it was far more certain that IS was going to be lynched (and thus a safer place to cast a bus vote) than I did. Once you get past that fact - based on your play today in comparison to the rest of the game... it just doesn't all add up.

[ace5993]

Ace if it's so 'textbook', why has it taken until now for you to say something to moz about it? If his play is so 'elementary', why wasn't he immediately your third target? I'm only basing my suspicion of mozamis on your play because honestly, I haven't seen any extraordinarily scummy play from mozamis this game aside from his sheeping. Am I just a fool?

A large part of his scumminess is from today - it's not purely the fact that he was sheeping that's scummy, it's what he did after he finished sheeping. Town can sheep too but they usually play in the same style if they stop sheeping. There's been such a radical change in mozamis' play that it's ridiculous. This tells me that he was only sheeping to avoid being in the spotlight. Plus his vote-hopping today tells me that he's trying to find the lynch that everyone will like. He's been on everyone's wagons today, which is again different from how set he's been on his "reads" throughout the rest of the game.

[ace5993]

Wow, I really felt like that could have gone either way for, like, the entire game >_> We got lucky as hell with the Otolia early kill and the IS lynch turned out to be a good thing eventually I suppose, although I didn't actually plan it to go down that way. We won in equal parts due to good play, outing PRs early, and luck imo.

I actually thought we were 100% going to lose after IS got lynched, but somehow it gained me enough town-cred for me to take down Junpei D3 (who I was pretty sure was the only one seeing through what happened at that point) and after that I began to think the odds had changed.

More strategy notes/real thoughts as scum incoming...

[ace5993]

So I suppose I'm too lazy to write about my notes unless someone specifically wants them. But as to this:

But

why

did we kill Whiskers Day 1?

And we need to send you our action in the first 48 or risk getting skipped, right?

I thought this was a PR slip.

[ace5993]

Haha nice one.