In post 196, Pads wrote:Internet Stranger's Post 145 reads like a Wiki page of ScumTells. We got blanket rejections, fearmongering, chainsaw defenses of the lurkers, ad hominems, and appeals to emotion. Where do I start? Nowhere, excpet to say that a vote on him is starting to look like something great.
Wait WHAT THE FUCK? This was the last thing Pads posted with any vote or read on someone.
Unvote, VOTE: PADS
Everything else can wait, this is the lynch for today.
So it's day. Is anyone clear as to the QT mechanic? Because if scum could communicate during the voting phase, it's not unreasonable to assume that they could have coordinated their votes...and Pads was voting with IS in spite of giving him a scum read...ON the mozamis wagon that IS pushes all day. This is after commenting on everyone in the game BUT mozamis.
That's the most important thing on the page. Let's see what happens afterwards.
Darox wrote:
Lol Burden of Proficiency.
I honestly never figured out on Day 1 out what caused him to say this (it just seemed kinda random), but it was in response to Otolia's suspicion of InternetStranger.
Otolia wrote:
Internet Stranger has mentionned mozamis twice for 'trying too hard' which is far-fetched. He is supposed to know better.
Darox is mocking Otolia's reasoning. Without saying InternetStranger's name, he's defending him by attacking his attacker. Textbook chainsawing.
Speaking of attacking the attacker...
Hiplop wrote:
ACE is scum, btw
Hiplop wrote:
ACE is scum, and its pretty obvious too. His posts are actually complete fluff and/or repeated knowledge.
While Ace's case at the time of his vote was perhaps not the most thorough in the history of mafia, it's no worse than anything Hiplop himself has generated. Let's also not forget that Hiplop followed suit in suspecting mozamis after InternetStranger, who himself was following Ace's early suspicions.
"Zomg Pads, but you voted for Mozamis"
Indeed, I did. What can I say? The behavioral analysis on InternetStranger showed scum, the content analysis on InternetStranger showed scum. But, I just didn't like the wagon. Entirely too many people were ready to lynch him too easily. Looked like scum piling on a mislynch.
Mozamis' iso was awful and I don't regret my choice at the time. That said, at this point, regardless of past content, he's almost certainly town, and Ace gets plenty of town points as well. TehBrawlGuy less so, as he came in at about the right time for a bussing scumbuddy.
Am I going to take heat today for my choice? Don't I know it. However, I have hope that cooler minds prevail. If you really think InternetStranger used his last four or five posts to loudly discredit his scumbuddy (seriously read Post 210 and tell me you think he's talking to his scum buddy) and if you think I would allow myself to be seen holding hands with my scumbuddy who stood a very high chance of being lynched, then, yeah, vote me up.
Either way, I hope we all take away from this that definitively announcing your intentions and following through with them is the right way for the town to play.
Speaking of not being seen holding hands with their scumbuddy, Darox sure made an effort to not contribute towards a lynch. Couldn't vote Ace, or look bad when his scumbuddy got lynched. Couldn't vote Mozamis, or look bad hand holding. Didn't want to help his scumbuddy get lynched, so he voted for... basically no one.
Ace wrote:I'd like you (Darox) to post a comprehensive VCA right now please, and also before anyone else posts one. If everyone else could refrain from doing this before Darox posts again it would be much appreciated.
I'd like to hear his VCA, too, but we both know it's not happening. With one scum down, we have a little breathing room, and can spend some time on a policy lynch, especially one that has a healthy chance of finding scum. Darox and Hiplop both fit this bill.
In post 226, Pads wrote:Mozamis' iso was awful and I don't regret my choice at the time.
Specific posts that were awful please.
Actually meh, I don't think there's anything you could say that could possibly convince me of your towniness. I guess you could try convincing other people though.
Pads wrote:Indeed, I did. What can I say? The behavioral analysis on InternetStranger showed scum, the content analysis on InternetStranger showed scum. But, I just didn't like the wagon. Entirely too many people were ready to lynch him too easily. Looked like scum piling on a mislynch.
Except your post where you said "a vote on IS is starting to look like a great thing" happened
after
all the people currently on the IS wagon were set on their vote. I have no doubt that you didn't vote IS because he had too many votes on him though.
In post 227, Darox wrote:I am in three games with IS.
Everything he got attacked for was playstyle rather than alignment.
Cry me a river.
His normal playstyle is to fearmonger anyone trying to lead? I doubt that.
I'm going to side with Pads here. I actually had a feeling we would ML yesterday. It just seemed far too convenient that ISMaf would slip that hard, and also that he'd get pushed so much by what was essentially everyone save Hiplop/Darox. (this is part of the reason why I still don't trust Ace 100%) Bottom line is that you simply can't not support a lynch on that, though, or else you devolve into wine.
@Pads: It's relevant. If you can show how he was scummy before IS's flip, it gives a reason for you to have not been on IS wagon. My unwillingness to vote you is based on faith that you can do that. If you can't, I very well might vote you today.
I don't have anything to put here because my normal signature is images. Weeeeee.
@MOD: Will we be seeing just the final vote tally, or will we have access to the PM'd vote history, including unvotes?
Only the final vote count. I can explain why at the end of the game.
I still think there's something going on here, though I could be completely off track about it...
In post 219, ace5993 wrote:@Wasabi - No, both to voting for Whiskers and the idea. I was under the impression that this was a completely open setup.
Thanks for that, Ace. So, I checked the OP from Jedo, and Rule F1 indicates that the scum are able to communicate privately from the beginning of night until the resolution of their kill, so they're not able to coordinate from the time we enter the 48 hours of wrap-up time after the kill until the thread re-opens, as I read it.
I also looked at the wiki definition of an Open Setup:
An Open Setup is one wherein the exact role distribution in the game is known.
This is true for our game. But I also checked the entry for Coney Island:
In contrast to Mini Normal games, Mini Themes are allowed to have more complex game mechanics or a themed setup.
I don't want to take us down the rabbit hole of my personal wild theory when we've got so much other good intel to be working with, but I'll ask that we keep one eye on what exactly the mechanics of this game are - it may prove important. I, for one, will be much more cautious about PMing my vote until I'm feeling very good about being right.
actually had a feeling we would ML yesterday. It just seemed far too convenient that ISMaf would slip that hard, and also that he'd get pushed so much by what was essentially everyone save Hiplop/Darox.
(this is part of the reason why I still don't trust Ace 100%) Bottom line is that
you simply can't not support a lynch on that, though, or else you devolve into wine.
TehBrawlGuy voted IS, and the bold shows that he didn't really feel that he was mafia after all. The underlined shows that he is making up some excuse for this that is in no way valid.
The melody of logic always plays the notes of truth.
In post 176, Junpei wrote:TehBrawlGuy, you're saying that your only scum read is a 'leaning' on Darox?
No. I was saying I was leaning Darox for best scum read. I didn't list anything more, because I didn't feel like posting anything more, thanks to how tired I got.
My other main Scum read would be IS
Oh look, his strongest scum read was Darox.
The melody of logic always plays the notes of truth.
Junpei I don't see anything scummy about TehBrawlGuy's post. Are you trying to say that TehBrawlGuy and Pads did exactly the same thing? Because they really didn't at all.
Also your second quote is a blatant misrep, he was
saying
(past tense) that he had been leaning Darox as best scum read. Not necessarily that Darox was his best scum read right then. Also this is from the same post:
TehBrawlGuy wrote:Darox/IS (since I'm not going to announce my vote) > VE IMO
In post 230, TehBrawlGuy wrote:I'm going to side with Pads here. I actually had a feeling we would ML yesterday. It just seemed far too convenient that ISMaf would slip that hard, and also that he'd get pushed so much by what was essentially everyone save Hiplop/Darox. (this is part of the reason why I still don't trust Ace 100%) Bottom line is that you simply can't not support a lynch on that, though, or else you devolve into wine.
That's the thing, IS didn't slip in any definition of the word. He made valid cases which though certainly scum motived were pro-town. Sometimes it happens that you are lynched D1 as scum though you didn't do anything dangerous. Playing too town oriented is sometimes detrimental when you are scum. But that's off-topic.
Darox is disguised as the funny/elusive guy of the town. I dislike that because it's much more difficult to get a read on that. Getting rid of him early may be beneficial in the long run.
Concerning the Night lynch, I'd say it is a town favored mechanics. It allows us to lynch even when not every townie agree on something. However it's a double-edged sword since it can fires back when the scum votes for 2 people. IS may have been visionary on the perfect tactics for town. If everyone is vocal and un-ambiguous about their vote, it makes easy for the scum decide which wagon is better. Now it's also difficult because townies have to keep a guideline in order not to look scummy and draw too much attention.
Important !
I propose that we could pre-night state 2 persons we want to vote for. During the Night, we have to vote for one of those or vote No Lynch. That way scum gets way less room to maneuver and it corners liar and similar behavior. What do you say about that ?
Well I don't see how you could say that Ace when we are talking about, quite literally, 18 posts difference. Also "my OTHER MAIN scum read" implies that Darox is still a main scum read, why not vote him instead?
I'll look at pads now.
pedit: Otolia, that is just going to create a situation where there are 2 main BWs and scum get to choose which is better, which is the issue you attempted to address.
The melody of logic always plays the notes of truth.
"Otolia, Ace, TehBrawlGuy, Junpei, VisceraEyes, and
Mozamis
all get a pass from me today." Taken from 134. Already stated my other problems previously with this post.
196 and Internet Stranger is a good lynch now for having a post full of just about every wiki scum tell apparently.
Now he wants to policy lynch Darox who is likely town.
I really find his mozami vote out of place, and the fact that it is with Internet Stranger, a confirmed mafia... wow, you're right, something is wrong here, could scum have slipped up this bad? Pads may have signed his coffin with that vote.
The melody of logic always plays the notes of truth.
In post 196, Pads wrote:Internet Stranger's Post 145 reads like a Wiki page of ScumTells. We got blanket rejections, fearmongering, chainsaw defenses of the lurkers, ad hominems, and appeals to emotion. Where do I start? Nowhere, excpet to say that a vote on him is starting to look like something great.
Wait WHAT THE FUCK? This was the last thing Pads posted with any vote or read on someone.
Unvote, VOTE: PADS
Everything else can wait, this is the lynch for today.
Sorry to be Caotain Obvious again, but are you saying he's scum because he said IS was scum without actually voting for IS?
If so, I probably agree.
You've reached that age, Listy. 24, 25...Your muscles give up, they wave a little white flag of surrender and without any warning at all, you're suddenly a fat bastard...
arguing ad nauseum with IS yet voted WITH IS ultimately after finally conceding that he'd be a good lynch. While it's hard to believe that scum would be so obvious, it's too possible given the strange mechanics in play to just brush aside.
actually had a feeling we would ML yesterday. It just seemed far too convenient that ISMaf would slip that hard, and also that he'd get pushed so much by what was essentially everyone save Hiplop/Darox.
(this is part of the reason why I still don't trust Ace 100%) Bottom line is that
you simply can't not support a lynch on that, though, or else you devolve into wine.
TehBrawlGuy voted IS, and the bold shows that he didn't really feel that he was mafia after all. The underlined shows that he is making up some excuse for this that is in no way valid.
I felt he was possible maf, but yes, I had a bad gut feeling that it was just too easy for someone to seem that scummy on D1 and actually be Scum. You and I both know when D1 lynches are largely unopposed, it's a terrible omen for the flip. I got that same vibe from ISLynch.
As for the underlined, I'm simply saying I stuck with IS vote because logic > gut. What was I gonna do, go "Hey guys, IS looks far too scummy to be scum, we should daroxwagon"? No, because that would be a /desk play. I was and am not going to let the scummiest player by logic get a pass because the particulars of his lynch raise my hairs.
In post 176, Junpei wrote:TehBrawlGuy, you're saying that your only scum read is a 'leaning' on Darox?
No. I was saying I was leaning Darox for best scum read. I didn't list anything more, because I didn't feel like posting anything more, thanks to how tired I got.
My other main Scum read would be IS
Oh look, his strongest scum read was Darox.
Note how I'm using past tense in that post. He
was
my best Scum read as of my #175, but as of my #193, that changed. Would you rather I stay ambiguous about my vote, or would you rather I broadcast
Hey, I'm voting IS!
to Scum? I don't think the VCA we have would've been as useful had I done the latter.
In post 237, Junpei wrote:Well I don't see how you could say that Ace when we are talking about, quite literally, 18 posts difference. Also "my OTHER MAIN scum read" implies that Darox is still a main scum read, why not vote him instead?
I'll look at pads now.
pedit: Otolia, that is just going to create a situation where there are 2 main BWs and scum get to choose which is better, which is the issue you attempted to address.
...maybe because I found IS more suspicious? I even addressed one of his posts in my #175 and said I didn't like it, it's not as if I did some crazy about-face on him. Also, look at the part where I say I'm not addressing anything more due to being tired.
As far as the 18 post gap, note how in my #193 I quote a post IS made within those 18 as what's really giving me the scumread.
I don't have anything to put here because my normal signature is images. Weeeeee.
Otolia, if I could I'd vig you for that post. Even though I think you're town >_>
I'd like to hear some justification for Darox being town from anyone who thinks that. Are these the same people who thinks that it's a tragedy IS was lynched?
Death comes to us all, sometimes when we don't expect it. Ironically, this guy never saw it coming. Otolia was in the business of investigation, following people, and tracking movements; but he never could track down who was behind the murders. Sadly, he left none of his notes behind, and there are none qualified to take his place. As people mourned at his funeral, the mafia silently rejoiced.
P.S. The results of the votes was obvious, but much less useful thanks to all the mud stirred up.
Implicates Pads for helping push a counter wagon and everyone piling onto the IS wagon for free bussing.
Kinda surprised there was no other overlap between all the other votes.
For the record, I believe this to be a waste of the town's time and a distraction from what we need to be concentrating on today. But since two people asked, here it is.
Spoiler: Mozamis Case
Mozamis wrote:
I know this does not count, or even mean anything, but it's bizzarre so that's ok
VOTE OTOLIA
RVS is mostly fluff. I understand that. But this statement makes a noticeable effort to display itself as fluff. "No scum here, no need to think about this too hard!"
mozamis wrote:
so i guess scum will be trying to figure out who the dic or tracker is. was there another power role?
Suggesting a strategy for the scum? Wondering aloud what other power roles the town might have? What possible purpose does this statement serve coming from a townie?
Mozamis wrote:
pretty sure the next day all votes that we have sent are made public by the mod.
Nothing off-putting about this quote, but I want to show what's happening at the game at this moment. This is the game's 35th post, not counting the three from the mod at the start and this is Mozami's 12th post. He's literally generated 1/3rd of the game's posts at this point, and not said anything about anything, except for power role speculation and game setup. While I agree this is not necessarily a scum tell, it IS certainly a bit curious (why does he want to be so visible if he has nothing to add?), especially considering that his next post is:
Mozamis wrote:
"Not sure I like the idea of just sitting around wating for the scum kill."
Then why is he doing just that?
Mozamis wrote:
Not sure I like the idea of just sitting around wating for the scum kill. Isn't that a bit like voting for a No LYnch in a normal game?
We have a chance (a small one, like in a norma day one game) of lynching scum before their kill.
Haaaaang on. Whilst typing this, realised we can't lynch scum until after they make akill anyway.
Sorry.
But lets not put too much hope in our PR's -we have only a doc and a tracker after all.
It's post 102 in the game here, and he has no comments about anything other than setup and town power roles, while at the same time discouraging sitting around and doing nothing. He continues this trend until Post 140 where he agrees with the idea of policy lynching. It's his 24th post and it's his first opinion about something other than setup.
In Post 179 he agrees with Ace's case on Internet Stranger. He also brings up sheeping. I want to point out that while sheeping is certainly a way for scum to pile onto a mislynch, I consider it more of a null tell than anything else. I find that towns often suffer from a bad case of "Too many chiefs, not enough braves" (or, "Too many white knights, not enough soldiers", if you prefer) and I find "I agree with this case" to be a perfectly reasonable statement from a townie.
However
, this is the
179th post
in the game,
Mozamis' 27th post
, and his
fourth
vote, and only his
first
opinion on a player's content. How can anyone possibly not find that scummy?
There is easily enough justification here for a Day 1 vote and I do not regret my vote on Mozamis.
Ace wrote:
Only posts on mozamis were saying "not sure one way or another" followed by "I'm giving mozamis a pass today for posting content". His suspects were ThirdKoopa and Darox. Huh?
I'll concede the mistake from a strategy standpoint. I started this game championing keeping our thought processes open, and I should have stayed with it. I knew, by the time of Post 196 that I was almost certainly going to stay away from IS' wagon.
"But, Pads, in that post you said:"
Pads wrote:
Internet Stranger's Post 145 reads like a Wiki page of ScumTells. We got blanket rejections, fearmongering, chainsaw defenses of the lurkers, ad hominems, and appeals to emotion. Where do I start? Nowhere, excpet to say that a vote on him is starting to look like something great.
Though, I never actually call him scum, nor do I express an interest in voting him.
"WTF Pads, yes you do."
No, I don't. However, I am misleading about it. But that's the point, I'm trying to mislead. I think that scum are ramping up on a mislynch at this point. I know I'm a townie, and I know my appearance of support will encourage them to jump on and we can pick 'em apart the next day.
"Pads, you're making this all up after the fact."
That's what you have to decide. But, there's one last thing to tell you. Certainly we can agree that the last sentence is a little awkwardly phrased. "A vote on him is starting to look like something great?" Who the hell talks like that? It's because the unwritten end of that sentence, which I intended to finish first thing Day 2 after townInternetStranger's mislynch, was "...a great place to find scum!" Ah, it's funny how things tend to turn out.
"Pads, I don't believe you."
Imagine my shock. But, I think the town is reasonable in wanting to know my thought process, so there it is. Again, I concede the mistake of trying to be tricksy, and I don't dare to dream that I'm going to make it to Night 3. However, for as long as I'm here, the town will know my thoughts and intetions going forward.
Oh, and as far as the 'giving Mozamis a pass today' thing: upon seeing new information, I changed my mind. If you want to try to sell that as a scum tell, good luck.
Junpei wrote:
I really find his mozami vote out of place,
Perfectly reasonable.
Junpei wrote:
and the fact that it is with Internet Stranger, a confirmed mafia
Less reasonable. InternetStranger expressed several targets he 'found scummy' and a townie would have no idea which one he would vote for.
A scum buddy, on the other hand, would know exactly how he was voting.
A townie could have been reasonably swayed by InternetStranger's case against Mozamis.
A scum buddy would have seen that InternetStranger's lynch and subesequent scumflip was highly likely and would have certainly been feeling like he (Internet Stranger) was toxic. Imagine the moderately plausible scenario in which Ace, Junpei, TehBrawlGuy, Mozamis, and myself are all town (or the other four of them, if you think I'm scum), and you, the reader, (or me) are InternetStranger's scumbuddy. It must have felt like the world was coming down on him. Wouldn't you have stayed the hell away from him?
"But, Pads, knowing all of that his scum buddies could still vote with their buddy InternetStranger and just say 'InternetStranger's scumbuddy would never vote with him' the next day, thus hiding in the WIFOM!"
Except that given the option of hiding in the WIFOM, who would choose being seen hand holding over the strictly superior bussing of a doomed buddy?
*crickets*
There is no way a scumbuddy voted with InternetStranger. Not for a mislynch, and not even for WIFOM.
Similarly, InternetStranger is clearly not talking to or about his scumbuddy in his last post, unless you've put your WIFOM glasses on.
VisceraEyes wrote:
Pads should probably take a break from fake-scumhunting to defend himself.
Take out the word 'fake' from this sentence, and, at this point, this is the polar opposite of what I should do. The town has a legitimate suspicion of me for my late day choice and they're right to add pressure. But, I've already explained my thought process at the time. I didn't like the speed of the wagon and I stayed away. If that's not good enough for folks, there's not much I can do about it, because that's all there is.
On the other hand, what I
can
do is continue to play to my win condition, which involves finding scum. My words, at least to a point, were valid yesterday. Today, they are not, which I understand. The moment I die, they become valid again, so you can bet the bank I'm going to keep putting out my opinions and observations. To butcher a phrase, 'I got 99 problems, but a lynch ain't one.'
That said, I think I've wall-o-text'ed enough for the moment (and even if I haven't, three and a half hours of typing is quite enough, thank you). I'll finish up the other half of this post tomorrow night, which of course will be said scumhunting. Including a few more responses and my thoughts on each of the people piling on my wagon.
Also, a brief thought: I haven't looked too deeply in Otolia's death, but I think it makes Darox look better, actually. Should my wagon fall through, Darox is quite likely the next on the chopping block. Killing one of townDarox's attackers is a great way to frame him and set up such a mislynch. ScumDarox, on the other hand, would more likely kill one of my attackers to make me look worse.
