Mini 1243: Magician Mafia (Game Over)

[Guy_Named_Riggs]

While he is getting annoying with the imitating, I don't believe its because he's scum. He strikes me as just an annoying townie.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Vote Count 1.11

ace5993 (L-3) - Vi, sottyrulez, 4nxi3ty, Guy_Named_Riggs
sottyrulez (L-3) - Crab Canon, ace5993, Fishythefish, Shift
4nxi3ty (L-5) - saulres, Junpei
Guy_Named_Riggs (L-6) - springlullaby
Junpei (L-6) - Amrun
Shift (L-6) - Locke Lamora

Not Voting (0)

Deadline: Friday September 30 @ 1:00 PM Eastern
Countdown: (expired on 2011-09-30 13:00:00)

[saulres]

He strikes me as just an annoying townie.

Confirm vote: 4nxi3ty

I highly suggest everyone else

policy lynch

him until he stops posting like that.

Unless Vi converted him?

I chose my words carefully

[sottyrulez]

sotty, that's exactly what she (one of your heads) said. It's completely irrelevant whether or not it was in response to Fishy. I'm glad to see that you've resorted to making general "this wagon is terrible" statements while simultaneously backing up on your earlier defenses though.

You clearly either can't see what I explained, or you're deliberately refusing to. Guess which one I think is more likely?

[Fishythefish]

I don't understand why Fishy is making the argument between ourselves and Crab to be almost strictly Scum v Town. Post 292 seems to be him talking about the argument in his own words (I obviously disagree) but I don't really see how us being WRONG to Fishy makes us auto scum.

It's like he breaks the fight down and votes us for being wrong, but I still don't get why that makes us scum. See logical players will do that and logical scum players can take anything and make it scummy and I kinda feel like that's what he doing here. I think I need more explaination on why the actions we did are scummy OUTSIDE being wrong. Cause like, townies can be wrong too. Townies are more likely to be wrong right?

For the why you are scum bit see the last section on you in 292. You've argued this

dirtily

. You've accused CC of lots of bad buzzwords, without any serious attempt to back most of them up, and you haven't commented on important things brought up by CC in response. I think it's totally obvious that CC isn't executing a squirming, twisting, semantics using, strawmanning Fox News blitz. And I don't think, even through the distorting lens of being the other side of the argument, that you can really believe that. In fact, in the rest of this post, you seem to say you've been out-argued:

We still think Crab is scum. But we know when we're beat. The VP head of Crab cannon is freaking EXCELLENT when he is scum, at taking an argument, twisting it on it's head and making it a personal battle. This is what has happened in this game and it is also what happened in Pie E7 mark II. That will provide meta for three players in this game cause Vi is also in there. But it starts from post six where we start to pressure VP right away and if you read though you'll see how quick things get messy.

I'm not interested in playing that all over again. The game got bogged down and everyone got all shitty and crabby (har har) but yes. We made an internal choice to deflate the fight between us and Crab to stop the stupid mass posting, and to let the game breathe. I wanted to see what other people would do when the stage wasn't hogged up by us and Crab. I also wanted to see if maybe I was wrong and that I read Crab wrong, so I wanted to see what he would do when we weren't in his face. The answer is not a lot really. So yes, he is still a scum read. But no he isn't our only scum read.

~Sotty.

You saying you know that you're beat here doesn't square with what I see in the thread. If CC is all that you say he is, you should want and be able to demonstrate some or all of it to the town. You really haven't made any serious attempt to do that for a long time. Your manner of withdrawing from the argument - unjustified name-calling for a while, and then just stopping responding meaningfully - is bad.

I need to read and think some more before I give more reads - haven't got a full picture of all of the game yet. Quite busy this weekend, so expect that on Sunday.

[Junpei]

Sotty whatever happened to
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 1#p3448111

BWing is not scummy?

[sottyrulez]

This is getting so stupid. If you guys are content to spin everything we say into something that's scummy, let us know now so we can just drop any attempt to continue wasting time with a defense and just skip to the claim.

[sottyrulez]

I don't understand why Fishy is making the argument between ourselves and Crab to be almost strictly Scum v Town. Post 292 seems to be him talking about the argument in his own words (I obviously disagree) but I don't really see how us being WRONG to Fishy makes us auto scum.

It's like he breaks the fight down and votes us for being wrong, but I still don't get why that makes us scum. See logical players will do that and logical scum players can take anything and make it scummy and I kinda feel like that's what he doing here. I think I need more explaination on why the actions we did are scummy OUTSIDE being wrong. Cause like, townies can be wrong too. Townies are more likely to be wrong right?

For the why you are scum bit see the last section on you in 292. You've argued this

dirtily

. You've accused CC of lots of bad buzzwords, without any serious attempt to back most of them up, and you haven't commented on important things brought up by CC in response. I think it's totally obvious that CC isn't executing a squirming, twisting, semantics using, strawmanning Fox News blitz. And I don't think, even through the distorting lens of being the other side of the argument, that you can really believe that. In fact, in the rest of this post, you seem to say you've been out-argued:

Let's say for the sake of argument that we have been outargued. Is it then your position that scum is completely unable to outargue town in any situation? Because this is the argument you seem to be making here.

We still think Crab is scum. But we know when we're beat. The VP head of Crab cannon is freaking EXCELLENT when he is scum, at taking an argument, twisting it on it's head and making it a personal battle. This is what has happened in this game and it is also what happened in Pie E7 mark II. That will provide meta for three players in this game cause Vi is also in there. But it starts from post six where we start to pressure VP right away and if you read though you'll see how quick things get messy.

I'm not interested in playing that all over again. The game got bogged down and everyone got all shitty and crabby (har har) but yes. We made an internal choice to deflate the fight between us and Crab to stop the stupid mass posting, and to let the game breathe. I wanted to see what other people would do when the stage wasn't hogged up by us and Crab. I also wanted to see if maybe I was wrong and that I read Crab wrong, so I wanted to see what he would do when we weren't in his face. The answer is not a lot really. So yes, he is still a scum read. But no he isn't our only scum read.

~Sotty.

You saying you know that you're beat here doesn't square with what I see in the thread. If CC is all that you say he is, you should want and be able to demonstrate some or all of it to the town. You really haven't made any serious attempt to do that for a long time. Your manner of withdrawing from the argument - unjustified name-calling for a while, and then just stopping responding meaningfully - is bad.

We definitely

want

to demonstrate how he's scum. Claiming we

should be able to demonstrate

it is a burden of proof fallacy, and believe me, I've played in plenty of games where I've locked into scum and no one's bothered to listen or care while the game just endlessly stalls and it's clearly not possible to get the lynch I want. What exactly do you want us to do? Continue making the same arguments ad nauseaum? Start making up points? I guess I don't really understand what you expect here.

I need to read and think some more before I give more reads - haven't got a full picture of all of the game yet. Quite busy this weekend, so expect that on Sunday.

Is Crab Canon vs Sottyrulez really the only thing you've bothered to put much effort into?

[sottyrulez]

You saying you know that you're beat here doesn't square with what I see in the thread. If CC is all that you say he is, you should want and be able to demonstrate some or all of it to the town. You really haven't made any serious attempt to do that for a long time. Your manner of withdrawing from the argument -

unjustified name-calling for a while,

and then just stopping responding meaningfully - is bad.

I need to read and think some more before I give more reads - haven't got a full picture of all of the game yet. Quite busy this weekend, so expect that on Sunday.

Just noticed this. Examples of the unjustified name calling please.

[Amrun]

If sotty and crab both turn up town (as I think they are), I think focusing on the apparent 1 v 1 is a scum point for fishy. Scum loooooove false 1 v 1.

[Locke Lamora]

Right, read through the game, here are my main thoughts so far:

I don't agree with sottyrulez's complaints about CC's 63. I think VP's response is genuine, particularly given his stated thought process on Vi's restriction. I don't see why it would be more likely for scum to shut down the questioning than let it continue. Their assertion that he is 'twisting and squirming' is the scummiest part of the attack, given that CC's responses are far more consistent with their original position than that implies. That said, their obstinacy about continuing their CC case is giving me a slight town feel. It's apparent that they're getting nothing but heat for their case, so their refusal to back down from the suspicion doesn't seem like the logical scum play.

Amrun 187 gives me a strong town vibe. There's some very pro-town reasoning concerning CC's attitude towards Vi and why it's likely to be town.

saulres 192 features a little too much hedging of bets for my liking. It essentially leaves options open to attack in any convenient direction, contingent on flips. Trying to work out Vi's fakir comment reads like a deliberate waste of time. I'm not sure what to make of the rolefishing; he seems keen to make a big deal out of the fact that he thinks he's worked Vi's role out. Despite a reasonably high amount of posts, there's also very little scumhunting I can see; the fact that his vote is currently on a suggested policy lynch speaks volumes.

4nxi3ty is all over the place to me. Every now and then he seems to ask a decent game-relevant question, but he then follows it up with a string of irrelevancies. This is beginning to look like preventing people from getting reads on him than anything else.

Riggs' Ace vote is about as backwards as votes get, and he's done very little scumhunting other than this deeply flawed line of suspicion in Sottyrulez's direction. As far as I can tell, the only point in his favour seems to be that he's too clueless to be scum.

Ace gives up his Junpei suspicion very easily and a lot of 249 reads as disingenuous to me. The majority of his section on CC is aimed at tossing suspicion CC's way, then he states a neutral read. He seems to treat the players with no content completely differently: for instance, he slams springlullaby for lacking content and says next to nothing about me, which makes me think that these opinions are entirely fabricated.

Need to ISO some people, hopefully will get to that tomorrow.

[saulres]

the fact that his vote is currently on a suggested policy lynch speaks volumes

You understand it was there before that suggestion, right?

As to the rest, I'm just trying to be honest about my unavailability and letting people know that I will not at all be available at end of day. Since I like having input I'd rather be around at end of day and indicating my willingness to help end day a couple of days early so my vote is as well-placed as it can be. Right now it looks like it could move to end the day early if I put in on sotty or ace, and I think sotty's flip would reveal a ton more than ace, so I was tempted to move it, but the way bandwagons move around here so much I'd rather not move it off my top suspect just yet. There's still a few more real days until I have to be gone.

[Vi]

If sotty and crab both turn up town (as I think they are)

*nods head somewhat slowly*

[Shift]

Nothing worth commenting on/lack of motivation except to say Locke's last post is decent but seems to be following popular opinion.

[Fishythefish]

@sotty:
No, of course it's not my position that town can't be outargued by scum. And of course if that happens, sometimes there's no point pursuing the matter. But this really doesn't look like that. You've refused to engage CC, and you've not bothered to back up your accusations - like the following:
160: semantics, strawmanning points, softly suspecting us
168: being "twisty"
172: strawman
174: actually, I'm not sure what
198: twisting and squirming
222: in response to CC asking what he'd twisted: "everything".
These are what I mean by "unjustified name calling". Now, I suppose this would be nearly ok if it was well explained in previous posts, or if it was self-evident. But that's not the case for these accusations. If you were town who thought CC was scum, I'd expect you to justify these accusations - because it would better explain why you think CC is scum. Backing off slowly shouting "stop twisting my words" is a strategy for getting out of the argument, and maybe making CC look like scum who's twisting your words. I don't think your arguments were anywhere near exhausted if you believe what you say you believe, and that's why I find it scummy that you stopped the argument.

When I reread, some things jump out at me, and some need much more effort to make sense of. You vs. CC jumped out at me, and nothing else did. Looking at the other wagons in the game, none of them looked nearly as good as a vote for you.

[sottyrulez]

You realize nothing you posted there is unjustified name calling right?

[4nxi3ty]

If sotty and crab both turn up town (as I think they are)

*nods head somewhat slowly*

*shows amrun two cards*
*places one face up *
*places other face down*
*draws rainbow on the first*

*looks at saulres*
*looks inquisitively at boss*

[saulres]

*looks back at 4nxi3ty with a completely blank look as if to say "I have no idea at all what you're talking about or who the boss is but I think you having a boss means it's more likely that you're a goon and your boss is a scum leader*

It's the best I can do with whatever 4nxi3ty posted. I hate how I don't understand what people are saying in this game.

[Junpei]

*looks back at 4nxi3ty with a completely blank look as if to say "I have no idea at all what you're talking about or who the boss is but I think you having a boss means it's more likely that you're a goon and your boss is a scum leader*

It's the best I can do with whatever 4nxi3ty posted. I hate how I don't understand what people are saying in this game.

Yeah same here, I think that a side quest needs to be made to make Vi's post more easy to read, and 4nxi3ty posting like that makes no sense overall, but I do have one idea of what is going on, and if I'm right then Vi would know about it. It isn't alignment revealing to my knowledge though if it is what I think it is. It's also a possibility that 4nxi3ty is faking this, in which case it was cleverly timed right after my case on him.

If people have a strong idea of what 4nxi3ty or Vi are saying then please quote it and decipher it, we can't get bogged down in deciphering it, but someone posting a likely translation can't hurt.

[saulres]

Vi's generally not a problem, if something's not clear and she's asked about she usually explains it.

It's in particular 4nxi3ty's lack of follow-up and explanation that's anti-town to me. It's like using a secret code and anyone who wants to do that is not, imo, helping town at all.

Plus there's all the confusion I get trying to understand "he" "she" "this" etc. when it's not clear to someone other than possibly the poster who they mean. As I've frutilessly pointed out before.

[Crab Canon]

VP is in the process of moving and I am a little behind on this game due to a VERY busy week. I am going to read up today and get my thoughts up.

[Junpei]

Sotty, no unjustified namecalling? Did you read this part of his post?

These are what I mean by "unjustified name calling". Now, I suppose this would be nearly ok if it was well explained in previous posts, or if it was self-evident. But that's not the case for these accusations. If you were town who thought CC was scum, I'd expect you to justify these accusations - because it would better explain why you think CC is scum. Backing off slowly shouting "stop twisting my words" is a strategy for getting out of the argument, and maybe making CC look like scum who's twisting your words. I don't think your arguments were anywhere near exhausted if you believe what you say you believe, and that's why I find it scummy that you stopped the argument..

It is obvious that what Fish is saying is that you aren't explaining your accusations in a satisfactory way. Are you refuting that

"

We liked Anxiety for reasons stated about Shift and for his vote on CC. We believe CC is overstating the OMG MOD KILL danger Vi was in. I don't know how much clearer we can be there and yet still Crab wants to get all twisty with it.

"

Isn't enough to tell us just what it is about Crab's response that is so twisty and presumably scummy? Or how any of this traits apply to Crab as you say?

"

Crab's response is pretty underwhelming (semantics, strawmanning points, softly suspecting us) Happy with the vote.

"

Or what this picture even means in Post 174? Seriously, I put it in a tab and it is small. What about this twisting and squirming which I certainly don't see?

"

Regradless, VP's twisting and squirming thought his pressure has been pretty bad. I don't think he has reacted well to our vote at all. What do you think?

"

To which of course you elaborated with everything?

This is what you refuted with "You realize nothing you posted there is unjustified name calling right?". That isn't a good response.

[Junpei]

While he is getting annoying with the imitating, I don't believe its because he's scum. He strikes me as just an annoying townie.

Sorry for double post, but what about 4nxi3ty's (I'm assuming you're talking about him) play makes you think he is just an annoying townie?

[saulres]

One more point about 4nxi3ty that I finally remembered, then when I get back on later I'll read the intervening posts.

You're

*Shouts*

doing

*says the magic words : lamp is buried:*

it

*says a tenative 'aloha' to leaky scarecrow, crowd control, fire-fuel ace, and shifty lurk*

wrong.

[Amrun]

V/LA until Monday night