Mini 1219 - Bedtime Stories Mafia - Game Over!

[Banshee]

I've read this game (though only once) and I agree with this lynch, so I'm fine with ending the day and posting my thoughts in a more comprehensive form when morning comes.

[Banshee]

No, I'm going in a different direction altogether, if that wasn't the hammer. I've had more time to read and think and I'm pretty confident in this vote.

UNVOTE: VOTE: VoidedMafia

[Banshee]

@EvilBullet: What do you think of VoidedMafia and Neruz? I'm not looking for a past read of yours, I'm asking about your viewpoint right now. Also, can you give your thoughts on Rainbowdash and hiphop?

@Thomith: Your latest post makes it seem as if we must choose between Rainbowdash and EvilBullet as definitely one scum one town. Do you feel that if EB is town RBD must be scum? If EB is scum, RBD is near confirmed town? Can you explain what you think in that regard?

@Beck: RBD is making an assessment based on her own views on balance and what she thinks will be in the game. She's not exactly counterclaiming EB. Do you think that merits a policy lynching, or do you have other reasons to believe RBD is scum independent of this semicounterclaim?

[Banshee]

Yes, and I STILL don't find him the most scummy. Isn't that interesting?

If EB is hammered and he cardflips town, where will your suspicions go then, Neruz? Do you think that's even possible? Are you arguing that it's a policy lynch, or are you certain that EB is scum?

[Banshee]

@Thomith: You're misrepresenting what I said. And, by the way, I don't have a town read on EB, he's a null-read at the moment. But if I DID have a town read on EB, I'd be doing exactly what you're trying to lynch him for. Then you'd have another lynch all lined up for tomorrow, something scum is very fond of doing.

Hammering a town-read is NOT always scummy. Just off the top of my head, I can think of two reasons I might do that myself. Misrepresenting what someone else is saying and framing it in the worst possible light, however, is. And that's what you just did, Thomith.

IGMEOY.

EBWOP: What do you mean,

town

"hammering" a town read is scummy? That's a pretty bad slip there.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Thomith

Explain.

[Banshee]

What i meant by it was i don't see why town would hammer a town read.

You can think of no reason why town would ever hammer a town read?

[Banshee]

EBWOP: town "hammering" a town read

I just want to remember this particular quote because I think it's another case of Thomith being a little too knowledgeable about someone's alignment. It will only matter if EB is really town, but I don't want to forget it in that case.

@Thomith: Why did you make the statement that I don't think it's scummy to hammer a town read when that's not what I said or indicated? Do you think that people are obligated to vote for the person they find most scummy at the given time?

[Banshee]

I misread what you said, i thought you said somewhere about you didn't find EB scummy for hammering town but on a reread you didn't say that.

Could you point me to the post or quote the part that you misread, please? That's a pretty big misunderstanding and I want to be clear on where it originated.

@Neruz: Dramatic much?

[Banshee]

Again, Thomith, this is not something that I have said. Can you please refrain from reframing my arguments and statements? I have not said if EB flips town you are confirmed scum. I am not clear on why it's important to you to misrepresent me in this way.

I will say that generally town does not misrepresent others in this fashion repeatedly. Would you agree with that statement?

[Banshee]

My current problem is this.

We have two power roles claimed. One was run up to lynch, one is on deck for tomorrow. I don't agree to this and I won't support it, at least not at this time. EvilBullet is claiming even night jailkeeper. That means his claim can't be tested tonight at all. Rainbowdash semicounterclaimed, and now says that it's based on balance issues and not believing two things would be in the game at the same time.

Because of the size of the game, even-night roles don't exactly make sense. That said, I've seen stranger things. But in order to vote for Rainbowdash tomorrow or insist on a claim, you have to believe:

• 1. That EB is town and RBD is scum (duh, of course)
  2. That RBD is the sort of scum who is willing to trade one for one with a relatively useless powerrole for town (even-night jailkeeper isn't the most useful thing, everyone will admit)

The first might be possible. The second? I don't think so. I think Rainbow is a pretty canny player and I think she would never agree to such a one-for-one trade.

That said, I don't know if EB is town or scum. I have enough doubt that I'm not going to jump on that wagon. I suspect that one of our two claimed power-roles will be nightkilled tonight, and then we can lynch the other if that seems warranted (which it may) but I don't want to do the scum's job for them.

I still got my eye on you, Thomith, so don't relax.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: VoidedMafia

[Banshee]

Why don't even night roles make sense?

The number of players and hence the number of likely nights available for those actions, mainly. If you had an odd-night role, you would have a better chance of getting to use the power at all, but even that is iffy. It's just not that usual because of the math.

Say you start with 13 players:

• 13 players
  -1 lynched
  -1 nightkilled
  11 players
  -1 lynched
  -1 nightkilled
  1 use of power
  9 players
  -1 lynched
  -1 nightkilled
  7 players
  (at this point, most games are close to over, but we continue...)
  -1 lynched
  -1 nightkilled
  5 players
  -1 lynched
  -1 nightkilled
  3 uses of power best case scenario

It's just very limiting and usually would be expressed as an "X-shot" rather than an "even-night" to allow for it to actually be used more than once. Thus, I can see why someone would doubt this claim.

However, I don't want to second-guess the mod, but I don't want to lynch EB today either.

@Thomith: Can you rephrase that? I've no idea what you're trying to say, sorry.

[Banshee]

No, I see what you mean.

There is no point in them killing EB tonight if he is not scum unless they believe he will not be lynched tomorrow. There is a point to them killing RBD if she is town as long as she remains unclaimed, however, because she may be an investigative role that could cause them serious harm.

Essentially:

• If both EB and RBD are town and RBD does not claim:
  Mafia may kill unclaimed RBD and push a lynch of EB tomorrow.
  Mafia may kill EB and push a lynch of RBD tomorrow, risking her giving an investigation on someone in the town.
  
  If both EB and RBD are town and RBD does claim:
  If RBD is a dangerous role they may elect to kill her over EB and push his lynch tomorrow.
  If EB is more dangerous to them than RBD they may kill him and then push a lynch on her tomorrow.
  
  If EB is scum and RBD is town and does not claim:
  RBD is gone, sorry. No help on that, scum really has to get rid of her. She could be a cop for all they know.
  
  If EB is scum and RBD is town and claims:
  If RBD is not perceived as a threat she may be left alive for WIFOM.
  
  If RBD is scum and EB is town (I already explained why I don't think that is possible, actually -- they're trading one for one)
  
  If both are scum... um, we lynch them if they don't die? I don't think scum can leave these power roles alive, especially not knowing RBD's role. So I don't want her claiming today.

My take on things.

[Banshee]

@Thomith: I cannot speak for Weird but I did not consider that a typo. It may be a mistake, but it's a whole word, not a misspelling or a misuse of the word. It is the unconscious, unintentional tells that usually mean the most.

Why did you suggest attention be given to VoidedMafia and then not follow up with a vote or discussion about him at all?

[Banshee]

I don't like the way that not many people are thinking about voided now, i know other things have popped up but it sort of seems it has let voided slip under the radar a little imo.

Why are you currently contradicting yourself from just a little while ago?

[Banshee]

@Elli: Do you think that EvilBullet is likely scum? Who tops your scumlist currently?

[Banshee]

I was going to make a snarky comment to Elli but then I read him over in isolation and I mostly agree with his reads so I decided not to.

@Thomith: Then why bring it up?

• [sarcasm]
  "Oh, say, Town, let us not forget our previous suspicion of the most excellent VoidedMafia, whom I note Banshee has in fact voted TWICE now, but... oh, don't mind me. I don't want you ACTUALLY to pay attention to VoidedMafia. But if you read me in isolation later, then you'll surely notice that I brought up VoidedMafia, which will be MOST helpful in getting me off the hook at a later date when VM flips scum. Thank you and good day!"
  [/sarcasm]

Note that the above is not intended to be a direct or indirect representation of your play, Thomith. But it is a representation of how your recent play is making me FEEL.

[Banshee]

Evil Bullet, care to weigh in?

Your current actions are making me want to vote you really badly.

[Banshee]

@Evil Bullet: Yes, I meant the lurking. I hate it when I think people are trying to dodge my questions.

[Banshee]

As for the Elli-Llama discussion, though I wasn't invited to join it, I will say that I personally am an alt, a returning player who hasn't been here for about two years, and I can think of several roles that might cause me to counterclaim an even-night jailkeeper in a Mini Normal even without an extensive knowledge of the current site-wide meta. This does not confirm Rainbowdash as town. It does make me unwilling to press for a claim at this time.

[Banshee]

I would think the size of the game would make multi-scums (other than SK) unlikely. As for the other, what if it's an "even-night _________"? That was the first thing that came to mind when I read that.

[Banshee]

@VoidedMafia:

I had not asked you any questions yet. But now that you're here, I will.

Where would your heaviest suspicions fall if EB is lynched and flips town?
Do you think RBD should claim now? Do you think she should be lynched if she refuses to claim now?
What are your opinions of Ellibereth, Thomith, and Neruz? How about Beck?

That's all I have right now, I think.

[Banshee]

@Evil Bullet: You said you forgot who else I had asked about. Was that an untruthful statement?

I haven't ignored the fourth. They aren't here though, so I was content to wait until they showed up and posted something.

Since you bring it up, what ARE your thoughts on Hiphop?

[Banshee]

The regular way is that they are both town, but if Rainbowdash is an odd-night Jailkeeper, I will be really mad that she thought they couldn't both be in a game.

My first thought (I think I said this before) is that Rainbow is an even-night something and thinks there wouldn't be two even-night town things. Just my guess.

At this point, I am about to concede that I was wrong and RBD should go ahead and claim. If she's town, she might actually buy herself another day by claiming and avoid the nightkill, she will clear a lot of the confusion about EB that was created by her half-claim and we can actually make an informed decision about the situation.

It's still possible they're both town though. I am pretty sure based on the logic of the situation that RBD has to be town. (I can explain this again if anyone wants that.)

Ninja'd! Okay, before you go, Rainbowdash, do you have a percentage figure on how sure you are that EB is fake-claiming? Based on your own logic?

[Banshee]

@Rainbow: Okay, and sorry for double post to you, but since you're going to be away for a while I need a couple of other answers.

Why were you willing to argue for and support the lynch of EB previously but now are having second thoughts? What has changed between wanting to lynch him without question and now, question?

Do you think that you're a likely target for the nightkill? If EB is town, and if we do not lynch him today, he might be the target of the nightkill. Have you considered that when assessing the best ways to proceed from here?

[Banshee]

@implosion: Who is your strongest scum read? I am assuming it's still me. So, if you were to successfully lynch me and I flipped town, where would your suspicion land then? You've given two town reads and one scum read, do you have ANYTHING else to contribute?

What do you think is the scummiest thing I've done since replacing into the game? What was the scummiest thing deselby did?

[Banshee]

@Implosion: I was referring to your most recent post, not your overall ISO, when I said you had two town reads and one scum read. I still think it's strange that you have just one real suspicion and you don't show any interest in questioning me directly or trying to figure out connections between me and others in the town. Instead, I'm questioning you -- that seems sort of backwards to me.

I would be willing to lynch VoidedMafia, hiphop or Thomith. Of the three, Thomith gains us the least in information. Ironically, I think Neruz gains us most but I don't have a scum read on him at this time so I'm not supporting his lynch.

@Ellibereth: You said you would not be giving any reads until Rainbow claimed. Rainbow is not claiming. Are you going to give reads now, or is that moratorium still in effect?

[Banshee]

I said that. ^

Thomith can barely speak without spewing out three or four scumtells. He's had plenty of connections with plenty of people and as I read them they are all pretty much the same as mine, which have ranged from SRSLY? to WTF?

People who are TOO scummy don't give as much information because both town and scum will usually react in the same way to extremely obvious scumtells, overreactions and overdefensiveness. So it's less information for town because pretty much everyone will react the same way.

[Banshee]

Yes, I know. So that's twice you're wrong.

[Banshee]

@Implosion:
I think you're likely town. Your posts seem to demonstrate real scumhunting at first; however, I think you've come to a conclusion about what it means when someone votes to make it L-2 and then unvotes at L-1 that really isn't based on anything but sheer conjecture. I can't justify it either, since I've no idea why deselby would do that.

I also think at this point you have one scumread and you're going to fight to keep it since if it goes, you won't have any scumreads at all. So you're already suffering from confirmation bias and I doubt I could change your mind short of death. I suspect that explains why you didn't feel any need to question me about any of the things I did since replacing into the game that simply confirmed your scum read on me.

[Banshee]

@implosion:

What would it take, precisely, to move up from the -11 that you believe Deselby put the slot to?

I would argue that it really doesn't matter what I do, you're not going to change your mind. Therefore your opinion of me can't really have any bearing on my behaviour. I think if you were interested in verifying or testing your read you'd have asked me some questions, at least to try to figure out who my supposed scumbuddies would be.

Try to figure out some other scumreads, though. Tunneling on one player isn't helping anyone and will leave you stranded when I flip town. However, the way you're doing it it's not scummy; scum would have some back burner options too. It's just not smart.

@Rainbow: I'm already voting VoidedMafia.

[Banshee]

@Elli: I don't think so, but it was over two years ago so it's always possible.

[Banshee]

@Rainbowdash:

How has Beck's flip affected your opinion of EB's claim?

[Banshee]

There is one thing that seriously bothers me and I want to point it out right now.

Rainbowdash and Evil Bullet both claimed power roles. It seems pretty clear to me that Beck killed Sleuth and then was the target of the nightkill, but it doesn't really matter how that happened for purposes of this discussion:

Why are both Rainbowdash and Evil Bullet still alive?

Why would the scum shoot in the dark at Beck (or Sleuth) when there are TWO claimed power roles in town?

You can argue WIFOM all you want, but I'm going to say that there's at least one scum and perhaps two in that set of two. I can't believe no one else has noticed this and commented on it yet, I deliberately waited and even asked Rainbowdash about it in an effort to see who would notice and react, and no one really did.

VOTE: Rainbowdash

[Banshee]

@Thomith: I voted for Rainbowdash because she has not claimed her role. If I were scum, I would be MORE wary of her than of an even-night jailkeeper because she could be a vig (that Beck turned out to be) or any number of other things. Jailkeeper depends heavily on figuring out who the scum are or who the power roles are, and RBD's claim essentially short-circuits that for town.

If Evil Bullet is the jailkeeper, and Rainbowdash is scum, her claim is likely to get EB to use his power on her, thus controlling its use tonight and presenting WIFOM tomorrow. EB will rightly claim that he jailkept her, and RBD will proclaim that she is somehow semi-cleared by this.

If EB is scum and RBD is scum, then the same logic applies except no work is involved for either of them in that regard.

If RBD is town and EB is scum, then there was no reason to leave RBD alive last night. Scum would have to assume Rainbow's claim was correct, so they would have to kill her before she could use it, especially since she never said if it was investigative. So Rainbowdash remaining alive is less likely if she is town than EB remaining alive if he is town.

Since I presented it as equally possible in my first post, why did you react to my vote on Rainbowdash in that way, Thomith? Clearly I can only vote for one of them, right?

[Banshee]

So I think Neruz is town here
EB, Elli and Thomith are probably town, would not be shocked from a scum flips but I don't expect one.

Can you justify these reads, even briefly?

Why did Implosion go from being one of your top town reads and one of the only ponies you can trust to being probable scum? Which flip caused that radical change?

What is your view on Llamarble specifically? Why is he an unsuitable scumpartner for the two people you mentioned?

Why would you say that EB is probably town but change that to could easily be scum within the space of a few hours?

Most importantly, why didn't you comment on something that by your own admission you were shocked at? Why weren't YOU the one asking these questions and having these suspicions?

[Banshee]

How would massclaim benefit the town, in your view? Do you intend to fullclaim if a massclaim is approved?

[Banshee]

Also, I'm in a short list of four possible scum in which EB does not appear. I'm also the only possible partner for Llamarble according to your list. My support of the VoidedMafia wagon is treated as bussing for no good reason that I can see while other people are regarded as town for the same basic behaviour. Logically you OUGHT to be voting me, Rainbowdash, if you believe what you're saying, since I'm the ONLY person on your list who could be paired with all of the others on your list. I would be the logical choice. So why Implosion?

This makes me think that if Rainbowdash is scum, Llamarble is the other scum.

@EvilBullet: Thoughts on why scum shot in the unknown pool rather than take out either you or Rainbowdash?

[Banshee]

@Rainbowdash:

If EB is scum, then your plan cannot work. Your plan completely depends on EB being town, but you claim not to know if he's town or not. He could very easily be scum, according to you.

Which is it? Because you seem VERY confused today about everything. For someone who's had definite views all through the last very long day, suddenly you believe both that EB is town enough to confirm people and scum enough to be suspicious... Implosion was your right hand man all day yesterday but today he's the most likely scum. You pushed VoidedMafia's lynch rather halfheartedly yourself but you consider it bussing when others do it to pretty much the same degree.

I want some input from Hiphop and Neruz on this. They haven't posted today yet.

[Banshee]

Like I said though, all I need to do is get scum lynched today and we are going to start having cleared ponies through EB.

This is the plan to which I referred.
Not the massclaim plan, which I do not support.

This particular quoted comment is not made by someone who thinks EB is possibly scum.
Therefore you do not think EB is

possibly

scum.
Either you know he is, and you're scum with him, or you know he's town because you're scum, or you know he's town for some other reason.

You pushed a VM lynch, then left it in post #653. Finally coming back to it with a double vote gambit and then:

I need to decide a few things before hammering here. Vanilla was the only claim from him I would have believed at all given the cult talk, so much for baiting him into fakeclaiming doctor.

Ellibereth is still town, I feel selfless right now, not to mention lost. No clue why you ponies trust Beck as much as you do. Sleuth is town if one of VM and deselby are scum. EB is probably town at this point, actually moreso if VM is town for cool reasons. Implosion is lower on the list then before, but leans town. Thomith is still Pinkie Hooves.

Yeah.

I will let this go another day or so but intention to hammer declared. I ask no pony else to actually hammer because I still want to mull over bringing out my info and other secrets, although I doubt that I need to after that claim.

That seems pretty wishywashy to me. Llamarble actually even suggested wagoning EB during this period of time, too.

[Banshee]

Or by including "lynch scum today" means that anypony EB targets could not have submitted a NK, meaning that as town or scum he has to clear somepony every night.

Okay. As scum, EB could claim to target any one he chooses. Let's say he says he targets you and puts in a NK on me. You're cleared, except not really. You could be scum, or you could be town. If EB is scum NOTHING he says is guaranteed true. You're assuming his role is truthful even if his alignment is not known... what makes you believe that to be the case?

Anyway, I've laid out my case and I think it's a good one. I'm looking for someone NOT Rainbowdash to critique it and explain to me where my logic has failed or what I may have gotten wrong along the way.

[Banshee]

I do not support a massclaim.

I do not see a reason to give the scum more info than they already have.
Additionally, Rainbowdash doesn't seem sure of much except that she wants more information on town power roles.
This doesn't make me happy.

Before people start claiming (too late for Hiphop, I note) then I think we should at least see the level of support for this plan. I can see readily why Rainbowdash would support this, since if more power roles appeared at least it would make SOME sense as to why she and EB were left alive.

If both of them were town, there's nothing preventing scum from killing one and assuming that the other would be lynched in the morning. If one or more of them is scum, however, then leaving them both alive makes perfect sense in order to protect the scum hiding in the pool of two. If we out further power roles then they can continue justifying not killing one or both of them possibly for the entire duration of the game.

We should NOT be making the scum's job easier regardless of what Rainbowdash thinks about it.

[Banshee]

No. I don't agree and I won't participate. Lynch me if you want to over it. Just lynch Rainbowdash for it later. She and EB are the only ponies in town who benefit, and then only if they are scum.

Hiphop, if you don't support Rainbowdash claiming, why did you claim?

[Banshee]

You do understand that if Rainbowdash is scum or if EB is scum, you've just given them another target to hit that excuses why they are allowed to remain alive?

You get that, right? If EITHER of them is scum, now you're the next kill and they can say, oh, look, that's why we didn't get killed. You just gave additional cover to possible, even probable scum.

I don't see a good reason to do that. Can you explain why it's a good idea?

[Banshee]

All right. Who do you think are the scum, Hiphop?

Why do you think that the scum did not hit either claimed town power role and went directly for an unknown instead? Do you think that's optimal play? What are some reasons to hit an unknown town rather than a claimed power role?

[Banshee]

Ooooh, Llamarble, them's pretty tough words. Why aren't you voting me if you're so sure I'm scum?

Go ahead, I'd love to be confirmed and have people read over exactly what I said here. Do it!

Wouldn't it be scary if it got up to FIVE claimed roles and one turned out to be an odd-night investigator? Wooooo.... spooky!

[Banshee]

Yes, there are a number of reasons that I believe Rainbowdash is more likely to be scum than Evil Bullet. Hence, my vote on her.

No, I don't expect she is lynchable. I think the only reason they haven't started a serious wagon on me already is that they aren't sure exactly what I know and exactly how bad my cardflip will be if they lynch me. But being lynched is worth it if people start THINKING and stop letting Rainbowdash lead the town in circles.

[Banshee]

Opinions vary on how much Rainbowdash ever wanted VoidedMafia lynched, since she jumped off the first attempt pretty fast to start another wagon and Llamarble was eagerly trying to start an EB wagon even on the second attempt.

As for her theory about how EB will eventually clear everyone, that would make a lot more sense if he could actually clear people more than once every other night. Her plan won't work and she ought to know it, since she's using it as the basis for her great master plan. Mathematically he cannot clear people fast enough to keep up with the nightkills, let alone the potential mislynches. So this is a plan doomed to failure. Someone who was depending on it for victory would probably have looked at it more closely than Rainbow appears to have done.

[Banshee]

But no. So your entire arguement is that I led the town in circles that by after pushing hiphop a little I laid into my partner and pushed that until somepony fakehammered, and eventually brought it right back onto my parter instead of the claimed VT. Also that I apparently had daytalk and did absolutely nothing to VM of how to get out of me pushing him when it was obvious that I had some of the most sway out of anypony?

Stretch more. Paranoia less.

That certainly is not my entire argument. In fact, I think you are scum, that you made a couple of passes at VM and decided to buss him for additional town cred but were worried about looking too sure of yourself, that ultimately you did buss him and were looking for credit for it. I think you then left EB alive and went for Beck as one of the most outspoken townies because EB really wasn't a threat to you and while he was alive you had cover for why you remained alive after claiming a power role. I think you then argued we should all massclaim so that you'd have the same cover if you decided to kill off EB in case he decided to keep you safe (which of course, you don't want) and to out more power roles.

I think you've been remarkably changeable in your reads without a lot of explanations about why those reads changed dramatically and I think Implosion is perhaps the poster child for that sudden shift without an explanation. I think you're arguing for a plan where EB clears everyone without ever thinking about that plan and just how farfetched it would be in reality.

Oh, and I think Llamarble is your scumbuddy.

That's a lot more argument than YOU said.

[Banshee]

I'll vote my conscience, as should you. Thank you for the advice.

[Banshee]

My scumlist currently is:

Rainbowdash
Llamarble
Thomith
Neruz
Hiphop

I'm voting my top suspicion. I expect I will be all day.

No, I'm not sure Thomith is scum. I think he is scummy. I don't know if this is how he always plays or not, though.

[Banshee]

@Rainbow:

If EB is town, which is not certain but seems likely, and if you lynch scum today, which again is not certain and may be less likely given the level of interest people are showing in this game overall, then you still will not guarantee three forced scum lynches.

If your scenario plays out they will kill EB if he is town. Possibly not tonight, but sooner or later. In any case, that situation won't last through two confirms, much less three, unless you're arguing we'll lynch scum today and then dawdle around letting scum kill us until we're in LYLO. Is that your contention?

I'm still waiting for EB to explain how I am scum. Llamarble, you need to put up or shut up too. What's your case on me? That my slot was the go-to wagon when people were flying off the first VoidedMafia wagon? That I was the first one Rainbowdash led the town to in that situation?

I'm looking over Llamarble's contributions in ISO and in context, so I'll have something on that later today. I ought to look at WeirdVoigts too, I don't feel I have a clear read on that slot either.

[Banshee]

I AM HERE AND I AM TOWN.
READ COMING THIS EVENING.
TOTALLY-SKIMMED-SCUMREAD: VOIDEDMAFIA

Yeah, I'd have liked to hear a claim. Also actually catch up.
I read VM's ISO and it wasn't obv either way on first pass.
Some scummy stuff, but long in the way that scum often don't talk that much.
Ah Neruz is clearly scum. So there's that.

These two posts are about twenty-four hours apart. Which is it? Was VM obvious on first pass, or was he not?

Sure, maybe you are town then. Bullet's scum though. That hammer was atrocious. Bullet and Beck.
And scum says LOOK CLOSELY AT X WIFOMWIFOMWIFOM all the time anyway.

Yeah, he's pretty much confirmed scum right now.
Town just don't hammer townreads FOR NO GOOD REASON.

Oh I guess I did miscount.
Bleh.
I still have a long ways to go before any kind of read I'm confident in.
Except EB cause he claimed scum yaddiyaddi.

Where I'm at currently (and rather tentatively):
Town:
Meeeee

Townish:
Neruz
Thomith
Elli
RD

Scummy:
Beck
Voided
EB


WV could be scum. I'll get there.

What made EB town for you between yesterday and today?

Was it the fact he survived overnight despite his claim?
How did that work, exactly?

[Banshee]

dawdle around letting scum kill us until we're in LYLO. Is that your contention?

Where did you get that from?

Was it the fact he survived overnight despite his claim?

I am sure someone has pointed this out already but last night EB was not a threat to scum as he had no action to perform, why would scum kill someone who posed no threat to them?

In order to get three confirmed townies out of a town-EB investigative streak we have to wait through six nights. If that wouldn't put us at LYLO, we'd be pretty darn close. This supposes of course that EB is town, RBD is town, the scum don't kill EB during this supposed streak and we lynch scum today. A pretty unlikely line of suppositions.

EB would be a threat to scum tonight and it would be too late to kill him tonight. Therefore if they believed he would be a threat to them they would have had to kill him last night rather than wait until tonight when he could conceivably block the nightkill. This assumes that EB is town, of course.

I want an answer from you, Thomith, about whether you believe my logic in this post is sound or, if not, how it is incorrect.

[Banshee]

I'm assuming that... okay, for the sake of argument, Neruz, if you think I'm scum and you're a jailkeeper, and you jailkeep me, I can't kill you or anyone else, can I?

Kills are not resolved before roleblocks, are they?

[Banshee]

@Neruz: As scum, what is the advantage of passing up killing two town power roles in order to aim at an unidentified third in the town pool?

I can see three reasons personally, which I will relate:

1. The scum intended to push the lynch of one of the two power roles today and when that role flipped town to lynch the other by process of elimination. I'm the only one pushing either lynch and I'm not scum, and no one is jumping on that bandwagon with me, so that's not the reason behind it.

2. The WIFOM EB brought up that made Llamarble so certain he was scum yesterday and miraculously healed him to Not-scum today. They did it because they didn't regard either RBD or EB as a threat. This pretty much requires that they have a day role-cop on the scum side who investigated RBD and discovered she wasn't any threat at all. This one is mildly possible.

3. The scum believe RBD and EB are both so far off the track that it made more sense to go after Beck who was likely to nail one or more of them to the wall, something they couldn't risk after VM was lost.

There are the reasons against what I've argued. There may be others, but these are the main reasons against my points.

[Banshee]

Hmmm, I agree except that no one is pushing either lynch except me. Literally no one is pushing EB's lynch.

Doesn't that seem a little odd to you? Of course, now we've done the Schrodinger's cat thing and they won't, but it was odd that no scum jumped on my little bandwagon assuming your assessment is correct.

[Banshee]

And the first part of that question?

Was VoidedMafia obvious scum on a first read or was he not obvious scum on a first read?

[Banshee]

Yes, that would argue that even on a skim you thought VM was scum.
Your next comment was that he wasn't, within about a day of the first.

You do understand why that's troubling, right?

And hey, where's your case on me? Just calling me scum doesn't constitute a case, and you can't get out of it by saying maybe I'm just dumb when I ask you for justification. You said it, own it and make your case.

[Banshee]

I entered the game when it neared a lynch. I supported that lynch because I thought EB was lying and I thought his behaviour regarding the quickhammer was pretty strange. That lynch fell apart while I was reading over the game. During the course of that read, I thought VoidedMafia was scum. I voted for him and, since I'd just replaced into the game not long before, I didn't make a big case. But I did vote him for much of Day One, you're right, once I replaced in.

What do you think that means, exactly? That I voted for someone and supported their lynch without pushing it overtly? Is that a scumtell in your opinion if the lynchee flips scum?

[Banshee]

So it's a scumtell when you do this as well, correct?

[Banshee]

At this point the damage I was trying to prevent has already been done and the water has been muddied already. So I'll participate, meh. Weirdvoigts is up but I'll go next if people want to skip him for now since he hasn't weighed in yet.

[Banshee]

Vanilla Town.

Elli or Rainbow. Don't care which. Someone else can choose, I'm going to sleep

[Banshee]

As I said in a previous post, I think if Rainbowdash and EB are both town then there is likely to be a day rolecop on the Mafia side.

I did not claim a power role. I attempted to draw out the rolecop to waste his investigation on me. No idea if that was successful or not.

Llamarble's reaction was interesting, though. Immediate insistence on my death followed WITHIN THREE MINUTES with some friendly advice to me as a townie. And this is a direct and provable lie:

I for one advocated massclaim partially because of Banshee's odd-night-investigator softclaim.

Since he posted THIS before I made any comment about the scum being scared of an odd-night investigator.

WV can go next. Bansheescum, we're now up to 4 claimed roles, which is starting to feel like a lot.
That's why I want to just go ahead; I had EB as somewhat role-cleared but if he's actually role-obvscum I want to know.
Scum already know enough to direct their NKs etc.

Why lie about that, Llamarble? And what changes your mind about me as scum who must die and town who needs coaching in THREE MINUTES TIME?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Llamarble

Banshee also looks town for not having picked up on what Rainbow's role is (scum have more incentive to think about it, and would have figured it out by now).

To be fair here, I started playing again about a month ago after a two year hiatus and I have weird gaps in my site-meta knowledge. So that can't be considered a towntell for me because I probably wouldn't have remembered the role off the top of my head in the first place.

[Banshee]

@Neruz:
You have not claimed yet, have you?

[Banshee]

Bodyguard is a role that protects, Jailkeeper is a role that protects, two protecting roles in a mini game is a little abnormal.

But an Even night JK does make a little more sence with a odd night vig then a bg does, although a watcher makes more sence with a bg so that goes nowhere, i think there have been minis with 2 protection roles though, however i don't know how true that is.

The difference would be that the odd night vig is confirmed to be true. No other roles have been, but EB's claim makes far more sense in conjunction with Beck's. However, if the scum have a day rolecop and daytalk they could have potentially investigated Beck during Day One, framed a complementary claim and then pushed his lynch unsuccessfully and so shot him last night.

It's possible, but to me it seems pretty unlikely.

[Banshee]

I think it's better to thin the VT crowd personally. There are five powerroles (counting Implosion) and two of those are confirmed. The VT claims are Llamarble, Neruz, Thomith, Elli, WeirdVoigts and me. (Sleuth would have been one too.) We have one scum down.

Some of these powerroles are potentially confirmable (though I'm sort of distracted at the moment, I can try to work out how later on, or someone else can do it). My personal preference for a lynch would be Llamarble because I think he's scum. But if we can figure out a way to confirm or deny the three still living powerrole claims, we can afford to do a sacrifice lynch of a VT to try to keep the town powerroles intact.

I'll even volunteer if that turns out to be the way things need to go. I still would rather lynch Llamarble though.

Ninja'd. I don't think Neruz is scum. Not going along with that lynch.

[Banshee]

Vote WV

EB - I rethought some stuff, you are on implosion tonight with a town flip, along with me. With a scum flip go block some random VT.

How is this going to be helpful?

Who do you want hiphop to watch?

Do you have any opinion on the several misstatements I pointed out by Llamarble? What's the case against WeirdVoigts anyway?

@hiphop: What is your opinion of Llamarble?

@Llamarble: What is your opinion of hiphop?

Neither one of you has said much about the other, though you've spoken a couple of times in thread. I'm curious to know your reads on each other.

[Banshee]

Llamarble's reaction was interesting, though. Immediate insistence on my death followed WITHIN THREE MINUTES with some friendly advice to me as a townie. And this is a direct and provable lie:

I for one advocated massclaim partially because of Banshee's odd-night-investigator softclaim.

Since he posted THIS before I made any comment about the scum being scared of an odd-night investigator.

WV can go next. Bansheescum, we're now up to 4 claimed roles, which is starting to feel like a lot.
That's why I want to just go ahead; I had EB as somewhat role-cleared but if he's actually role-obvscum I want to know.
Scum already know enough to direct their NKs etc.

Why lie about that, Llamarble? And what changes your mind about me as scum who must die and town who needs coaching in THREE MINUTES TIME?

Why lie about what motivated you to advocate massclaim? What caused this confusion over your motivation?

[Banshee]

You're the one misremembering and misrepresenting the facts, and yet the one who points it out to you is stupid?

You realise that misrepresenting motives is one of the most reliable scumtells and is almost exclusively practiced by scum over town. Additionally, you were able to ascertain within THREE minutes that I wasn't one of the ones softclaiming and post your second post? That would make you an awfully fast reader, I think. Maybe a little TOO fast.

[Banshee]

@Evil Bullet:
I want an explanation of why you said you thought I was scum earlier and then never returned to explain that comment. You've been awfully silent lately.

@Llamarble:
There's a distinct difference between a mistake about the flow of the game and a mistake about one's own motivations, especially when the second kind serves to cast suspicion on someone else. I think you're a smart enough player to know the difference between the two.

[Banshee]

I supported massclaim because there were softclaims everywhere.
I forgot that yours was not one of the three before massclaim but rather came during it.
Unfortunately I think you're enough of a derp not to lynch you for pushing this BS.

You misrepresented your motivations. You can call it a mistake but you corrected it awfully quickly and well before you could have read the thread again to SEE your mistake, arguing that you knew it wasn't true as soon as you posted it. Otherwise you wouldn't have spun on a dime like that.

I think you're scum. I could be wrong, but I'm not dishonest about it and I'm not misrepresenting facts to try to put other people in a less favourable light. So I invite you to go ahead and lynch me if you think you can. Bring it on.

[Banshee]

Yeah but IC + three roles to guard them?

Scum have to be holding something really good to counter that. More likely EB is scum RBer/JK or hiphop is scum watcher.

Neruz I think is town because I have had that read just about the whole game.

I agree with everything here. Except I think hiphop is far more likely than EB. In order for me to believe that EB was scum fake-claiming, I would have to believe that scum had a day rolecop who targeted Beck and then provided EB with a fakeclaim to go along with that, or that EB is being honest about his claim but not his alignment and is a scum-aligned jailkeeper, which as implosion has noted has no real utility in the game for scum and would be a negative for them more likely than a positive. It would also leave scum relatively underpowered in my opinion.

I think I was wrong about Rainbowdash, because I had forgotten about the breadcrumbing of PGO, which I did pick up on at the time and then promptly tried to ignore. As scum, I probably wouldn't have taken the risk either. So I think my logic was off there.

Mathematically there nearly has to be scum in the claimed powerroles because otherwise town has more powerroles than vanilla townies. So the argument being made by some is not valid.

Five power roles for town claimed (two known)
Seven vanilla townies (one known)
One known scum

If there are two scum remaining and both are vanilla, that makes five power roles to five townies. That's pretty overpowered, especially for only three scum.

If there are three scum remaining (which would seem more likely if all powerroles are truthful) then if all were vanilla you would have five town power roles and four vanilla townies. I don't think this is likely, if it is even possible.

So one of the power roles is lying. My bet is on hiphop because that's a role that I feel would be pretty easy to fake for scum.

[Banshee]

The setup you mentioned is far less overpowered for town than the one we're presented with if all claimed powerroles are correct. Four one-shot roles and one tracker are far less powerful than even-night jailkeeper, odd-night vig, watcher, bodyguard and innocent child.

Scum only have daytalk so long as the encryptor is alive, at least in past games I have played. So they don't have daytalk now.

I don't get your point about how we should be scared of you if you're scum. You are advocating killing from the VT pool first, even more than anyone else since you're arguing that there are no scum in the PR pool. So you're saying that if you were scum with hiphop you'd be... doing exactly what you're doing now?

Point taken.

[Banshee]

Wow, I dislike your list. Ellibereth is one of your top three scum reads in that batch? REALLY?

I'm not voting Thomith because I am voting Llamarble. I am voting Llamarble and not Thomith because I find Llamarble significantly scummier than Thomith. I've been making a case on him for about half of this day. I should think that would be obvious at this point.

[Banshee]

@Llamarble:
Do you think I'm scum? If so, who do you think my likely scumpartner would be? Do you think I'm likely to be scum with Neruz?

As I've said before, you're welcome to try to lynch me. I think based on the previous wagon on Deselby and my own numerous interactions with various people it would gain a lot of good information for town, so please, go ahead and try. But I think you're just going to bark about this all day and not actually bite.

@hiphop:
I argued with Thomith quite a bit when I entered the game but my own brief meta read and my interactions with him make me believe this is just how he plays. I don't like it either, but I'm aware I have a tendency to mistake that kind of play for scum when in fact it's ... I don't want to say a playstyle, but a particular way of playing that I don't like.

How has Llamarble been helpful?

[Banshee]

Can you provide examples of that last assertion? Because I think that's BS I've yet to see a scum make that request without any pressure on them. I don't believe I even have a vote on me at this point, despite your empty and pointless threats.

[Banshee]

For the simple fact that he actually makes sense and I can follow along, compared to someone who has one word sentences. I find that generally people who try and succeed at leading the town, are most likely town, which is exactly what llama is doing at this point.

What game are you reading? Rainbow has been calling the tune for the entire time I've been playing. Llamarble has been ALL over the map on his reads including calling EB town two real-life days before he voted him for lynch. He's certainly not leading the town.

And finally, did you happen to read page 1-20? Also take into account that I have personally seen and played with Thomith when he was scum twice.

Yes, I've read the entire game. Have you played with Thomith as town? How does he differ?

[Banshee]

FOS: Ellibereth

for demonstrating far too much knowledge of my role.

Only a scum rolecop would know I'm actually a bean in a fez.

[Banshee]

@Thomith:

In seriousness, do you think Ellibereth is scum? Do you think I am? If no, why is it vital to know why he thinks I'm town?

Ellibereth's behaviour surrounding the actual lynch of VoidedMafia (not the fake run-up previously) after the lynch but before the threadlock is pretty good evidence that he's town. You should read that over, just those few pages around that time period.

[Banshee]

Neruz and Ellibereth r obvscum pair. Quiklynchplskthx.

[Banshee]

I doubt he will say "I told you so."

I do think it's odd Llamarble didn't know Thomith was at L-1 since Llamarble directly replied to a post in which Thomith said he was at L-1.

[Banshee]

Thomith, can you point to or provide a link to a finished game where you were town that you feel is representative of your normal town play?

[Banshee]

I almost want to say massclaim. We have one dead PR, one claimed and I already claimed non-VT.

I think this is the first suggestion of massclaim.

I don't see what's wrong with Llamarble's reasoning. Actually:

UNVOTE:

I'm STILL waiting for Evil Bullet to explain why he thought I was scum a few pages back.

[Banshee]

Currently Llamarble makes the most sense as scum. Too quick to go for that massclaim, which is why I can see him and Banshee as partners as well but their little tussle later on makes Banshee look towner.

I don't really understand your reasoning here. Why does Llamarble's willingness to go for a massclaim make him a likely scumpartner for me?

[Banshee]

Why would ANYONE want to fake the degree of townness Thomith has demonstrated in this game?

[Banshee]

As I see it we have probably two and possibly three scum left.

I'm making these assumptions that are NOT proven to be facts but appear most likely:

• 1. There is only one scum group.
  2. Beck shot Sleuth.
  3. There is at least one scum powerrole remaining.

We have four claimed town powerroles, one of which is confirmed:

• Implosion: Innocent child
  Rainbowdash: Bodyguard
  Evil Bullet: Even-Night Jailkeeper
  Hiphop: Watcher

We have six claimed Vanilla townies:

• Ellibereth
  Banshee
  Neruz
  Llamarble
  Thomith
  Weirdvoigts
  

We can be sure that Implosion is being truthful. That leaves three powerroles, all of which are protective. We also had an odd-night vig.

I do not believe Rainbowdash is scum. I could be wrong, but that just doesn't seem likely to me. So if scum is hiding in the powerroles, it's between Evil Bullet and Hiphop in my opinion. If Evil Bullet is scum, he is an even-night role and will be able to do something to someone tonight. I suspect if he is scum he's a scum roleblocker; scum jailkeeper doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

If Hiphop is a scum Watcher then there's a third scum power role. Encryptor and watcher isn't enough power to counter the town's level of power in my opinion. I don't see any way both of those could be town given the confirmed odd night vig and innocent child.

So, we can take a chance and lynch between Hiphop and Evil Bullet and have roughly a fifty-fifty chance (in my opinion) and much better info for tomorrow.

The other alternative is to lynch one of the claimed VTs, and it's likely that at least one scum and possibly two are there. I am going to leave myself in this analysis even though I know my alignment because it's not been confirmed to the rest of the town and it's harder to read if I don't include us all.

Ellibereth - I think Elli is town based on his reactions after VoidedMafia was lynched but before his cardflip. Elli kept pushing that VM was town even when it was too late; I don't think scum does that.

Banshee - I'm not objective on myself, so not making a case here.

Thomith - When people were discussing lynching WeirdVoigts instead of Thomith, smart scum would have shut up and let the attention die down. Llamarble argues that Thomith is smart enough to play horribly badly, to demonstrate numerous scumtells, and ... why would this be a good idea for scum OR town? On the other side, Thomith tried to reframe arguments from both Llamarble and me and to twist words in a way that seems outrageously scummy. Smart scum wouldn't do that, since it's one of the most obvious scummy things you can do. So no, Llamarble, you can't have it both ways; regardless of his alignment, Thomith has consistently been under suspicion and that's not a hallmark of clever scum.

Llamarble - I don't know. I was pretty sure he was scum earlier. Then he started arguing with me in a way I definitely associate with town. I dunno. I'm going to put this at null. I don't like the sudden recent backhanded suspicion at Rainbow given his past play; that, to me, is the scummiest thing he's done lately since the reasoning he gave was reasoning that should have existed throughout the game, not just suddenly when he decided to bring it up.

WeirdVoigts - I could vote WV; he seems to be pretty conciliatory, pretty much only responding when he's being pressured. THIS is how I would think smart scum would play.

Neruz - Some hypocrisy but I'm really going to say I think that the not knowing Beck was dead thing is pretty compelling evidence that he's town. Unfortunately the "I'm so stupid" thing he did after that made me think it was a gambit. "Notice, please, that I was too dumb to even know Beck was dead!" Trying too hard to ensure full cred for something I would have tried to pretend didn't happen. Meh, I don't like this.

For me, I could vote Evil Bullet or Hiphop (with preference to lynching EB who makes a lot of statements and rarely supports them, and who flies under the radar as much as possible without earning a prod). The recent "I'm not going to go along with anyone else's plan for my jailkeeping" seems to me to be a preemptive explanation for a town power role death tomorrow.

If we go the other way, I could vote Neruz or WeirdVoigts.

So, for now I'm going to:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Evil Bullet

But I'm willing to move that vote to Hiphop, WeirdVoigts or Neruz in order to come to a consensus.

[Banshee]

Rainbow - I need to not let this one coast because

the ponies are all very good at playing scum

. Also would explain the Beckkill well.

This bolded portion specifically is what I mean; you commented it once before on the same page. If this is meta knowledge for you in general, you should have been aware of it throughout the game yet during Day One there's no hint of this awareness and you basically follow Rainbow as does most everyone else.

When did you determine that the ponies are all very good at playing scum? Why didn't that occur to you previously?

[Banshee]

Okay. Did a quick reread; I'm acknowledging that I have read Llamarble's explanation and it has not made him towner to me but it has not made him scummier either.

However, I need to add that I am willing to vote Thomith as well. I'm less certain he's scum (but he very well could be -- there's no such thing as too scummy to be scum) but I think it would give a lot of information either way he flips.

[Banshee]

guys just lynch voided. Like really. I know I've got this one. Tomorrow we can bother with all the potential partners but like this is a free easy scum lynch being presented to us and nobody wants to join.

I mean just look at the deselby wagon for instance. Got to L-2 in like a couple hours. Thom lynch went up just as quickly. Hiphop lynch went up in votes real quick. We clearly have a scum team that's ready and willing to push for mislynches.

(which reminds me, I'll have to do my own VCA) and yet I've been pushing for Voided for a while now and there's not a single opportunistic vote on him. Can I get some Elements of Harmony back up please? Even trial members, I'll put in a good word for you up top if you want in, just get Voided lynched for me.

@EB: You posted this earlier in the game. Have your impressions of those wagons changed? Do you still feel they were mislynches as indicated in the bolded portion?

[Banshee]

Aren't scum wagons more likely to be harder to get the hammer on than town wagons?

It varies. What are you trying to figure out with this question?

[Banshee]

I am willing to lynch:

Evil Bullet
Hiphop
Neruz
WeirdVoigts
Thomith

(in rough order of preference)

[Banshee]

Well, unless there is a day role cop on the Mafia side who investigated Beck early on day one (which seems unlikely to me based on the general play -- I wouldn't have investigated him if I were scum) then I have to believe that Evil Bullet is being honest about the role (if not the alignment). We know there was an odd-night town role and without a rolecop Evil Bullet would have had no idea to claim even-night anything unless it were true. So scum or town, he's definitely an even-night something. You're right about the roleblocking/jailkeeping being pointless to the scum and I hadn't thought about that angle to it.

I suck at game balance but you obviously don't. So I'm going to sheep you on this because your opinion is a lot better than mine AND you're town.

UNVOTE:

My suspicion list stays the same but I'll drop Evil Bullet from it.

Willing to lynch:

• Hiphop
  Neruz
  WeirdVoigts
  Thomith

[Banshee]

@Rainbow:

Why would you not vote me? Also, would you be willing to vote hiphop?

Actually, I need to think about exactly what happens in each proposed scenario if any of the PRs (except Implosion obviously) is scum. I'm going to try to do that tonight, but I make no promises. It's possible that leaving hiphop alive forces the scum to no-kill or to kill less optimally.

It is possible (though not probable, I guess) that all scum are in the claimed VT pool too. In that case lynching any of the VTs is one in three, just as if one PR is scum then lynching there is one of three.

How would WV flipping town clear EB? Is it because of the fakehammer thing? Does the existence of the daytalk encryptor change that view any for you?

Meh, the odds are good for us regardless. I'm not sure why you're exempting me from the lynching party if you suspect me though.

[Banshee]

Pairing people with other people with no knowledge of either party as scum is really really pointless. It's about as relevant as pointing out that I'd be a pretty good scumteam with Implosion (look at all that distancing!) because it doesn't derive from any knowledge of alignments. The only points that matter are those derived from connections with VoidedMafia.

At this point we need a lynch. By my calculations, Thomith is currently at L-3. WeirdVoigts has two votes on him. I'm going to

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Thomith

and put Thomith at L-2. I think we should just agree to choose between these two and lynch one of them. Whichever one we choose will gain us enough information to proceed and we'll end this constant bickering and going around in circles (which I am just as guilty of, so I'm not pointing any fingers at anyone else). Lynching Thomith has the added bonus of avoiding WIFOM later on due to some very scummy aspects of what appears to be his normal playstyle.

[Banshee]

Have you read my recent posts?

[Banshee]

Not really, i stopped paying attention to you awhile back when i decided you were probably a VI.

So what led you to that conclusion? I note that your level of play hasn't justified a whole lot of confidence in your abilities either, as you've so dramatically pointed out.

If you held that opinion, why would you bother questioning me about something that, by your own admission, you're not even paying attention to? Why would it occur to you to do so?

And is anyone else going to answer Rainbow's questions or just ignore them as per usual?

[Banshee]

EBWOP:

Just a note to myself to remember this particular attempt by Neruz to defend Thomith via attacking someone for voting him and to reread the start of the game if Thomith flips scum.

[Banshee]

All right, let's dissect some of your past play, Neruz. You call someone scummy but you don't vote them during RVS. This has been discussed to death but it's worth noting that the person defending you at that point was Thomith. You're inextricably linked with him throughout the game through your own actions and his. I have this delightful post I'm working on that's just full of the linkages between the two of you.

People were starting to leave the Thomith wagon at this point for WeirdVoigts. You claim you're not paying any attention to me because you think I'm a VI. Fair enough, but then why suddenly start paying attention and complaining the second I put a vote on the person you WANT to be lynched?

What's the motivation there? You weren't reading my posts enough to know why I put my vote there, so why react at all? Your motivations don't make any sense if you're telling the truth, because either:

• You're reading my posts and thus should know why I changed my mind; or
  You're not reading my posts and shouldn't have noticed that I even voted for Thomith.
  

You perked up at the vote for Thomith and, instead of reacting positively to someone else voting for your favoured candidate, you reacted with hostility and demanded a reason why. I voted for Evil Bullet and I didn't hear a peep out of you; it's always Thomith that gets a response from you.

Namecall all you like. I'll put my contributions up against yours in this game ANY day. At least I don't pretend not to know who the nightkills are; if you ARE town and you really didn't know, that's even more pathetic.

[Banshee]

Yeah, like I've said all along, go ahead and lynch me if you think I'm scum. I'm happy to volunteer to be lynched, I think town can learn a lot from any wagon that forms on me, and I think they should look at you first when I flip town. But I want to make my big huge wall post before that happens (and before we lynch anyone) just so it's really clear the connections that exist between you, VoidedMafia and Thomith.

And yeah, if you call someone a VI you're deliberately provoking hostility. It's a personal attack and you haven't offered anything material to support it, but most people will resent it regardless of alignment. Your play has, frankly, SUCKED if you're not scum so you have no room to call anyone else names, but you've still done it all game long. You vaguely remember this and that, but you're not ACTUALLY READING THE GAME AT ALL. I don't like Thomith's playstyle, but at least he knew who the nightkills were.

Of course, I think you did too. No one gets the superior snotty attitude you have without being a better player than you're faking to be in this game.

[Banshee]

Ellibereth ASKED for them.
That's why people are giving them.
Or did you miss that post too?

Whose posts ARE you reading that don't mention Thomith by name?

[Banshee]

All this undesreved praise from Llama is making me feel warm and fuzzy.

It's only praise if you're scum. You realise that, yeah?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Neruz

[Banshee]

Is it the comment you object to, or the vote that you mind?

It's fine that you called me a VI; I'm in good company with half the rest of the town in this game, according to you. And then, I can just consider the source and the lame excuses you've made for your own derptastic play. My feelings aren't hurt.

If you're town, why are you flailing so desperately with just three votes on you? We were talking about Thomith's play changing under pressure, but it's NOTHING to what you're demonstrating right here.

[Banshee]

I don't agree with you, Llamarble. Neruz interacted with and about Voided a TON before the end of Day One. And he also knows what a chainsaw defense is, just to be clear on that in case he forgets later.

VOTE: Voidedmafia for trying to ruin everyone's fun.

Wow, i go to sleep and wake up to

this?

Not sure what he's referring to...

I went to sleep after Thomith and Voidedmafia had each overreacted to the other a bit and generally been either slightly scummy or mildly stupid. I come back to discover they set off a resonance cascade of ever escalating absurdity over the next three pages.
VOTE: Thomith for scummy reaction to early pressure.

FOS: Voidedmafia

for taking Thomith's overreaction and running with it like an opportunistic scum.

One of these two is probably scum, possibly both if one is third party. I can't see two townies having that interaction with each other.

You unvote void because you like him as a town read so you don't want your vote on him

I have no fucking clue where you got that from. I unvoted void because i felt like it and it was still RVS.

@Neruz - Explain how the exchange between Thomith and VM cannot come from town v town

I cannot, such absolutes do not exist in Mafia.

@Neruz - Explain how the exchange between Thomith and VM cannot come from town v town

I cannot, such absolutes do not exist in Mafia.

Fine. Explain why the exchange between Thomith and VM "probably" cannot come from town v town.

Being snide will get you nowhere.

Because i cannot imagine a town mindset that would result in an escalating shouting match to that degree. The kind of fear that leads one to attempt to back-justify like that does not come from town, in my experience.

p.1 - voided clearly missed where hip said Thom was always scum and thom replied back showing he hasn't always been scum, clearly it wasn't a claim and anyone who actually thinks it was isn't looking at the big picture, so that would be specifically voided and

neuru

.

What?!

Where the fuck did i say i thought Thomith was claiming scum.

My god, how do people who cannot read english manage to sign up for Mafia games on an english forum.

ok please don't insult my intelligence again, it's obvious you think he is scummy for what he was saying because of this

I'll be honest Thomith, you've scored a few scum points in that little alitercation.

VOTE: hiphop for having a name that is similar to hiplop.

sure you didn't SAY it, but you sort of IMPLIED it because you thought he was scummy.

I can readed da engrish gooder

Clearly not. Thomith scored scum points because he overreacted to Voidedmafia's pressure.

When you say someone has done something, do check to make sure they

actually did it.

Otherwise you just look like lying scum and any attempts to correct yourself just look like covering your ass.

EBWOP: And for those of you who are apparently incapable of understanding basic mafia concepts, Thomith scored a few scum points because he took Voided's joke about him 'claiming scum' seriously. Townies

typically

don't react defensively to jokes like that, it was a small thing and in RVS so i didn't see any reason to take it particulary seriously yet, townies are capable of being jumpy too and it wasn't like he'd overreacted crazily and turned the entire thing into a four page discussion.

Yet.

Wait.
Hang on.

Beck, if scum talking wasn't on your mind when you made the comment about Voided's response being coached, how exactly were you expecting Voided to get coaching on his responses?

who coached who in game?

It looked like rainbow spoke, and void listened and accepted her posts with no real feedback. Maybe coaching was the wrong phrase but void's responses just didn't feel natural to me.

Yeah, that's not coaching, that's sheeping. Coaching would be if rainbow told void what to do.

I don't care about scumvibes
well I do, that's natural, and it's nice that you quoted. Gut is just gut.
What I don't get is the 'Viey' part of things you brought up.
What's 'Viey' there. At all. And don't say stubborness.

Um, that would be the blind stubbornness? Voided gave reasoning for most of the things Beck brought up, Beck responded with what basically amounted to 'no ur wrong'. That's pretty standard VI territory there.

I do find it interesting how fast you chainsawed me though.

Oh, did i forget to answer that. Meh.

A chainsaw defence is when a mafia player attacks a non-mafia player who is attacking his scumbuddy.

Okay
Take away flips
Player A attacks Player B for his bad attack on Player C.
Then what.

I'd also you didn't anwser and just voted Voided.
Thomith isn't happening, he's bullet bait.

If C doesn't defend himself and lets A do all the work then that is a pretty strong scumtell for C.

I will vote voided if and only if we are in the last 24 hours and there are no other possible lynch candidates and not one moment sooner.

Why the hell has voided refused to claim when he was put at L-1? Suddenly i don't see a good reason to not lynch him right the hell now.

Here voided. Where are you, my itchy hammer finger is hanging here.

*Shrug* Doesn't matter to me. If ponies are a DV then they're probably town and there's no rush on that information, if ponies aren't a DV and were messing about or referring to her supposed voting bloc as i suspect then i honestly don't care.

VOTE: Voidedmafia

No clue if that's actually the hammer since Grey's votecount is pretty messed up. But i'm going to sleep now. Night.

No, I'm going in a different direction altogether, if that wasn't the hammer. I've had more time to read and think and I'm pretty confident in this vote.

UNVOTE: VOTE: VoidedMafia

Goddamnit Banshee,

EB has admitted to deliberately attempting to hammer a town read.

[Banshee]

@Thomith: Because he was doing a catch-up post and reading a great number of posts all at once in a row.

It is normal to have one read on someone and then change that read as they do more and more scummy things or even when they do something townie.

This is not a scumtell for EB. It is, if anything, a towntell because it shows that he didn't edit his thoughts as he recorded them and that he provided them unedited when he posted.

[Banshee]

@EVERYONE:

Neruz is currently at L-2 by my count. It is ESSENTIAL that the PRs coordinate how they're going to handle the night actions (I don't care how they do it, but they have to agree about it) before we hammer or we won't get anything close to enough information from the night.

Please don't hammer before this happens. And PRs, please do this ASAP just in case.

I realise this warning is probably not necessary, but I'm paranoid. Sorry!

[Banshee]

If anypony thinks I will ever protect anypony but implosion they need to think again.

I would say hiphop coinflips me and implosion while EB coinflips implosion and a VT to increase odds of busting hiphop, blocking kill and keeping me alive.

If we lynch scum

implosion

EB is on a VT though.

You meant to say this, yes?

[Banshee]

Just because I think it's funny, while we wait for the rest of the PRs to chime in. (Hey, I just reread the whole game so I feel entitled to some amusement.)

My god, how do people who cannot read english manage to sign up for Mafia games on an english forum.

EBWOP: And for those of you who are apparently incapable of understanding basic mafia concepts...

So, uh, good job stating the bleeding obvious there. My error for overestimating you.

Which is wrong, and i'm making sure you are aware of that because you are apparently intellectually challenged.

See, it's posts like these which is why i keep calling you an idiot. You clearly don't understand English at all despite your protests to the contrary... And if it wasn't for the fact that you have shown a distinct lack of comprehension when it comes to basic English, i'd think you were trying to create scumtells on me.

I have zero tolerance for idiocy.

Why am i getting these overwhelming scum feelings from reading Beck's posts? I can't find anything

especially

scummy there, only VIey, but i keep coming away with my gut screaming 'scuuuum, scuuuuuuuum'.

There is no irony anywhere in this situation. You sir, are a fucking crime to the english language and after answering your question i will no longer speak with you.

You're an idiot Llama.

You're bad at mafia in general.

I just facedesked so hard my forehead has a keyboard shaped indentation on it.

I will take those words and a steel cactus and i will ram them down your throat with the cactus, your very presence in this universe actively detracts from the intelligence and sanity of every sentient being, the mere concept of your existence causes measurable harm to the intellectual processing ability of the entire species and the very idea that someone like you might possibly exist in any of the uncountable multiverses that splay across the infinite sea of possibility renders this game nearly impossible for the town to win you boneheaded retard.To everyone else, good night.

You can't target yourself stupid.

Eh, i'll be honest, i wasn't really paying a whole lot of attention to the game.

Not really, i stopped paying attention to you awhile back when i decided you were probably a VI.

And just like that you're back on the VI wagon.

[Banshee]

Llamarble - I don't know. I was pretty sure he was scum earlier.

Then he started arguing with me in a way I definitely associate with town.

I dunno. I'm going to put this at null. I don't like the sudden recent backhanded suspicion at Rainbow given his past play; that, to me, is the scummiest thing he's done lately since the reasoning he gave was reasoning that should have existed throughout the game, not just suddenly when he decided to bring it up.

Could you please expand on this?

Sure, I think so. I can't really make a lengthy post right now because I'm writing to a deadline, so if you need more it will need to wait til tomorrow.

I was pretty aggressive in attacking Llamarble and I argued with him pretty harshly. In my experience, scum tend to back down and become more conciliatory when someone attacks them because they're concerned about how they look to others. Llamarble didn't do that. I started with thinking Llamarble was obvscum, OBVIOUSLY. His responses to me made me reconsider that. His responses didn't change even when I pressured him just about as hard as I'm capable of.

I can get the quotes and things tomorrow if you still need and want them. Let me know.

[Banshee]

EBWOP: Tomorrow real time. Not tomorrow as in the next game day.

[Banshee]

hmm, Banshee's trying too hard to be scum, assuming our scum are smart, which is probably a valid assumption given they managed to ident Beck as a PR worth shooting, they're probably trying to avoid my wagon. Implosion's vote looks pretty terrible, but even i have difficulty with the idea that scum would wilingly place the fourth vote on a wagon with the reasoning "lets see what happens".

You ARE aware Implosion is confirmed town? What is the point of this comment, in light of that fact?

I started this lynch, thank you very much. How did I "pick up on the easy lynch"? I built and pushed this wagon all by my lonesome. Check it out, I really did. So stop mischaracterising what happened; it's the same thing Thomith keeps doing and it's REALLY scummy.

[Banshee]

You've claimed vanilla townie. You are paying no attention at all to this game as has been evidenced over and over and over and over again.

Why, if you're so much better than the rest of us, are you playing so HORRIBLY scummy that you believe you've made it amazingly easy for ANYONE, including a VI, to make a convincing case on you?

How is that pro-town or useful in ANY WAY?

Yeah, at this point I am practically begging to be lynched because 1) it would get info for town and 2) I wouldn't have to play with lazy, do-nothing, read-nothing, know-nothing players like you, Neruz.

@Llamarble: I think it's interesting that WeirdVoigts didn't vote Neruz, since that would seem to be the logical move to get heat off himself and onto someone else. That said, I tend to agree with Rainbow that Neruz makes a lot of sense with a lot of ...er, people. Not least of which was VM.

[Banshee]

You seriously believed that in a Mini Normal you would have three cult leaders ... and you're accusing others of not understanding basic Mafia theory?

SRSLY?

REALLY?

Meh, you're right, though. I don't know why I'm bothering to care either. I doubt we're capable of agreeing on a lynch anytime this year anyway.

[Banshee]

@weirdvoigts:

Why did you not address the case made against Neruz at all and instead put up a countercase of your own without giving any indication you were aware of the Neruz case, which I believe was the main thing going on at the time you were reading over the game and posting?

This omission seems very odd to me. Was it deliberate?

[Banshee]

At this point I think the scumteam is hiphop + WV.
But basically right now pretty much

everybody is in agreement that hiphop is scum

.
If we're wrong, that assumption is going to seriously screw with our ability to read other players well.

So we may as well test it now.

If I were scum I'd NK VTs and let the town lynch a PR or two for me anyway

, so seeing a watcher-guilty isn't too likely anyway.

You realise that you're advocating the plan that by your own statement you think the scum would be counting on?

[Banshee]

@Neruz:

I thought about this at length and I'm confused about something.
You claim you only joined this game because you believed there would be three cult leaders and that GreyICE in fact assured you of that.

You claim that you no longer care anything about this game and that you're not paying attention because the mod lied to you and got you into the game under false pretences.

So why did you not replace out when you realised you'd been lied to? I don't think anyone would fault you for replacing out of a game that you were lured into under false pretences.

Additionally, if that is true why did you react so negatively and violently to a wagon forming on you? I would think you'd welcome being lynched if you were town, since you'd be out of this game that by your own admission you care nothing about and can't follow and want out of anyway. I know at this point I would be pleased at a wagon forming on me because at least it would be SOME sort of forward movement in this game.

Your actions don't make any sense if you are being truthful.
I don't think that you are.

[Banshee]

No i don't. I claim that i'm not 100% invested in the game and that i'm not paying complete and total attention to the game. In both cases it is not because of GreyICE being a sneaky snake, but because the pace of the game is unbearably slow.

So, once again you are completely and utterly wrong in every concievable way, i'm pretty sure you currently have a perfect record in that!

Well, let's look at this.

You don't know who the nightkills are. You don't know that Implosion is an innocent child and therefore town. You believe that there would be not just one, not just two, but THREE cult leaders in a MINI NORMAL and you then whine about having been lied to by a big meanie mod because you apparently are too dense to realise that this is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN ON MAFIASCUM...

You were wrong about VoidedMafia, you were wrong about Beck, not one of your reads has borne out in this entire game...

Yeah, maybe EB is right and you're just a VI. You've done nothing this game to deserve being treated as anything else.

[Banshee]

With the general activity level and degree of interest in this game, I don't really see a point to making a huge effort to make cases or whatever right now.

I'm just going to note that if WeirdVoigts or Neruz flips scum, it would probably be helpful to remember that when the wagon on Neruz was underway, WeirdVoigts didn't address or acknowledge that wagon at all but instead made a case on a different individual. This represented a significant change in WV's recent posting level and was odd in that generally people acknowledge leading wagons before beginning a counterwagon. In any case EB stopped Neruz's wagon cold so it doesn't end up mattering, but I hope someone would remember this if we get a flip on any of these people. It's a relatively good connection as scum connections go.

[Banshee]

...Banshee are reasonable and might decide to join in too.

I resent this disgusting implication. How dare you say I'm reasonable?

However, I also just want somebody to die.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: hiphop

[Banshee]

@Thomith:

What's your impression of hiphop? Do you think he's likely to flip scum or town?

[Banshee]

@Thomith:

If you believe that hiphop will flip town, then by definition you could not be scum with hiphop because hiphop would not be scum. Therefore the case would be pointless and moot and you shouldn't care about it anyway. If hiphop did flip scum, then your insistence on justification for Llamarble calling you a likely scumbuddy for hiphop looks like you're trying to defend against what you know to be hiphop's eventual flip.

[Banshee]

@Thomith:

Hiphop has already been lynched. The case on hiphop does not depend on a case on you. No one can be considered cleared by hiphop's flip regardless of which way that flip goes.

[Banshee]

By my personal reckoning the people currently voting hiphop are:

implosion, weirdvoigts, Llamarble, Banshee, Neruz and Rainbowdash.

Evil Bullet didn't want to vote until it was the hammer. But then he missed the hammer.

Corrections to my vote count welcome.

[Banshee]

Why do you care so much about hiphop getting lynched anyway? No matter which way he flips, you've made yourself look REALLY scummy here.

[Banshee]

I would prefer to lynch Thomith, but I readily admit I could be wrong about this.

My reasoning is this:

• Thomith definitely would have felt threatened by Llamarble during the last day.
  There are numerous NUMEROUS linkages between Thomith and both of the known scum.
  Thomith's behaviour about trying to save hiphop is not something I would expect smart scum EVER to do, which is why it seems fairly likely that Thomith-scum would do it.
  There's no such thing as too scummy for scum.
  Llamarble pushed hiphop's lynch when implosion was the only one voting him and most people were looking elsewhere, which is not something I expect scum to do.

I'm willing to vote for Llamarble just to cut through the WIFOM, but I do not want us to ignore Thomith until LYLO because I really think he's the last scum.

[Banshee]

I'm going to vote Llamarble in about ten minutes. By my count that puts Llamarble at L-1 so I don't want any "accidental" hammers before he can tell us who to lynch tomorrow in the event he flips town, please.

[Banshee]

As promised:

VOTE: Llamarble

Should be L-1.

I notice that Thomith hasn't posted in this day yet. Please remember this if he shows up just to hammer and Llama flips town.

[Banshee]

I was waiting for Llamarble to have a chance to point at his suspicions as he said he wanted to do. Instead he made a plea for his life.

In his place I would not be doing that. I would be pointing out who I think is scum. Town wins even if they die, so his weird "Let me have one more day" thing is not townie. Town welcomes the chance to die if it helps town win, imo anyway.

Rainbow is right. Go ahead and hammer, Thomith.

[Banshee]

UNVOTE:

Checking this WV thing for myself. BRB.

[Banshee]

bvoigt last posted Tuesday, September 13

wierdalexv last posted Tuesday, September 13

Llamarble is correct about weirdvoigts and September 9.

I'm not voting until I figure out what I think this means.

[Banshee]

Actually after some more thought, Llama

did

push the hiphop lynch pretty damn hard and also announced that he was going to push a WV lynch if hiphop flipped scum. I could absolutely see scum wanting to take Llama out of the picture because he was fairly instrumental in the hiphop lynch, i'd much rather lynch WV than Llama right now in light of the current situation.

I think this is where I am right now too. I don't trust my own scumdar (I sheeped Implosion yesterday because I am stuck on thinking Thomith is scum) but I really don't think Llamarble would have aggressively bussed his buddy yesterday when he didn't have to.

VOTE: weirdvoigts

Is it too soon to ask for a prod on WV?

[Banshee]

We all got a PM about the start of the game.

That would include WV.

If he's town, why isn't he here?

[Banshee]

RD is susceptible to AtE. (I bet it's cuz she's a she)

Obnoxious sexist commentary for the win.

I don't care if we lynch Llama first. If he flips town, though, I want WV next. If we still haven't hit scum, lynch me and then lynch Thomith. I want to point out there is NO WAY Elli is scum based on the little fit he had when VoidedMafia was already lynched about how we'd lynched town. In my experience, scum lie low during the aftermath of a scum lynch. I guess it's possible Neruz is scum. I'm meh about that, I doubt it with hiphop's flip.

And, for reference, Thomith tried to SAVE hiphop. He didn't post in the new day until I said something about his absence, and then he posted IMMEDIATELY. You can think that clears him all you want, but you're making a mistake when you think someone is too scummy to be scum.

I don't understand why all the handwringing and agonising over this, but fine. If there is only one scum left (which I'm assuming, so correct me if I'm wrong) then probably we're all going to suspect each other to some degree or another if we are town. Using that as a scumtell suddenly is sort of ridiculous; if I were scum, why would I be pushing Thomith? Why wouldn't I be going with the flow and lynching Llamarble happily with the rest of you, unless you're arguing that I'm scum with him? I don't think two remaining scum are very likely, personally.

My list from town to scum:

• implosion (obviously)
  Banshee (I know I'm town. Objectively, probably tied with Neruz in terms of town cred, I would guess)
  Elli - attention-getting actions surrounding VM lynch make no sense for scum
  Rainbow - town
  Evil Bullet - if Llama flips town I'll rethink this position, but still town
  Neruz - no reliable read
  Llamarble - Bussed hiphop pretty hard
  Weirdvoigts -Missing in Action
  Thomith -Don't let this guy get to LYLO please
  

I don't think I've left anyone out.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Llamarble

[Banshee]

I doubt it. I don't think that EB will move his vote, and WV certainly won't.

I think we're waiting for Elli to post.

[Banshee]

Oh, puhlease.

[Banshee]

I swear, if I die overnight and you guys don't lynch Thomith, I'm going to freaking haunt you.

I mean it.

[Banshee]

@Thomith:

@Llamarble:

[Banshee]

I swear, if I die overnight and you guys don't lynch Thomith, I'm going to freaking haunt you.

Woo way to give scum a reason to kill you.

PLEASE READ THIS.
THIS IS THE PERSON WHO JUST MINUTES BEFORE "ACCIDENTALLY" HAMMERED LLAMA.
WHY WOULD HE KNOW THERE WOULD BE A NIGHT?
WHY WOULD HE KNOW THAT I'M NOT SCUM?
WHY WOULD HE THINK IT WAS BAD I (A VT) GAVE THE SCUM A REASON TO NK ME RATHER THAN A POWER ROLE?

I swear, I would actually prefer to be lynched tomorrow regardless. I know Thomith won't have the guts to NK me since I threatened him so badly as seen above. If you guys are just going to let Thomith win this as scum, I'd just as soon not hang out for the grand finale.

[Banshee]

By which, I mean, yes, I would go with you on that, EB. Please, please lynch me tomorrow.

[Banshee]

Waiting on Ellibereth. I'm good with being jailkept (or whatever it's called) tonight. I can hammer if Elli doesn't do it when he shows up.

[Banshee]

@Thomith:
I do think you're scum. You're my number one suspect. However, I don't think anyone will listen to me about this (past experience indicates) and you're unlikely to be lynched at least until after I am, so I'm not arguing the point anymore.

As I see it, we'll lynch WV. If he's scum, awesome. If no, then EB JKs me tonight. If he ends up dead anyway, I'm cleared and we lynch you. If the scum no-kill, I'm sure EB will want to lynch me a la Llamarble, but scum lost a NK so that's cool too, I can go with that. Either way, you're not going to win if you're scum because I don't believe they'll let you live til LYLO. I think we're going to win, so yeah, I'm willing to vote for WV today because I could be wrong. I don't think so though.

Does that answer your question?

[Banshee]

Just out of curiosity, WV, what was your case on Llamarble before you popped in out of nowhere to try to hammer him? I surely don't recall seeing it. Can you link me to it?

Do you really think you have a right to this kind of dramatic overkill?

[Banshee]

If you're town, why do you care so much if you're lynched? That's a pretty good case right there. I get annoyed when people keep saying "Oh, Banshee is scum!" and then not voting me, because I feel like they're trying to stack mislynches. But no one is doing that to you, so why the rage right now?

If Thomith was such obvscum, why weren't you supporting MY case yesterday?

Why are you suddenly jumping on this case now in this particular self-serving way? Where were you yesterday?

Oh, that's right. You were coming in and trying to quickhammer without contributing word one of discussion or comment beforehand.

That's scummy enough to vote you ANY day.

STILL waiting for Elli.

[Banshee]

banshee that half answers my question, so do you think my play yesturday was scummy?

Yes. As was your play throughout the game.

[Banshee]

It is important to note and remember that you did in fact post a case on Llamarble in order to move your vote off hiphop and onto Llamarble when hiphop was in danger of being lynched. Timing IS important and since we now know the alignments of both of these individuals, it's interesting that you say this and move your vote safely off hiphop in the same post:

I know I said earlier not to use associative tells without a flip, but I strongly feel that hiphop is scum. But since that isn't happening, we might as well lynch his buddy. Several recent posts point to a Llama/hiphop team:

Maybe we should just lynch hiphop today...

I'm still not entirely made-up-mind between WV & Neruz, and would appreciate some more thoughts about which one will flip scum.

And this particular gem is very much applicable to your own play, WeirdVoigts, much more than Llamarble's.

He doesn't want to make it look like he's afraid to lynch hiphop, but he never follows through on #1674. He doesn't put out a feeler vote or ask anyone else if they'd support the wagon. Instead, he goes straight back to the VTs. Also, there is this, an EBWOP done two and a half hours after the first part. I feel like Llama is better than this, but it almost seems like his curiosity got the better of him:

Also why am I "the best partner for hiphop?"

You yourself said your suspicions of Llamarble were dependent on hiphop being scum, but then you move your vote off hiphop. You go straight to Llamarble, a VT. How is what you did different than what he did? And remember, Llamarble can't be lynched today, so if you found it horribly suspicious for him to do it, why wouldn't it be horribly suspicious when you do it too?

Is your VCA the only reason you're suspicious of Thomith suddenly? Is that suspicion tempered at all by the equally scummy picture it paints of your own play? Do you feel that it's only valid when it applies to him, but that it can be discounted in your case not only by you, but by the rest of the town?

That's two instances of hypocrisy. I find them a pretty big scumtell.

@MOD

Can we have a prod on Ellibereth, please? I hate to ask but we're waiting on his input.

[Banshee]

@Thomith:

Can you do an ISO on me? Basically about one third to one fourth of my posts by volume are devoted to my reactions to scummy things you have done.

I don't think I need to recap it all right now. Anyway, it would take up more than a page of the game to cut and paste all that.

Just ISO me. You'll see what I mean.

And threatening puppies with death doesn't make you look more town. Just to let ya know.

[Banshee]

Ok so you forgot about acting like i was scum and lying about the accidental hammer.
Ok banshee very towny.

Excuse me?

I have no clue what you're talking about here.

I have been pointing out scummy things you have done ALL GAME LONG. From buddying up to Neruz day one to your "accidental" hammer yesterday, I could go on and on. Oh, wait, I HAVE in all those posts you want me to summarise right now.

Do you REALLY want me to ISO you and point out every single scumtell you've dropped, including the misrepresentation of almost everyone who has ever expressed even the slightest suspicion of you?

REALLY?

Because that's not going to help you. The town is set on lynching WV and I'm not sure they're wrong, and we're all waiting for Ellibereth to come back, so I have some time. Is that what you're asking me to do?

[Banshee]

I do think you were lying about accidentally hammering yesterday. I haven't forgotten it. It isn't relevant to the situation right now. Many of us have the ability to retain a memory of something without constantly announcing it to others. It's awesome, really.

I don't really care if you think it's townie or not. If you think I'm scummy then LYNCH ME. I honestly don't care at this point, because as long as the town lynches scum at the end of the day, guess what, I win. Even if we don't hit scum today, EB will JK me and I'm either cleared or lynched tomorrow anyway, so my level of interest in your trauma is less than you might surmise.

What's your impression of WV? How many scum do you think are remaining anyway?

[Banshee]

@Thomith:

If you think WV is scum, why are you wasting time arguing about whether or not I think you're scum?

Look at it this way, logically.

If you are town, then someone else must be scum. EB is unlikely to be scum due to his role. Implosion is definitely not scum. TownThomith knows he is not scum. So therefore, the scum must be in WV, Elli, Banshee or Neruz.

Someone in that last four is likely to be lynched today. Right now it surely looks like it will be WV. If WV cardflips town, then you know that it's either Elli, me, or Neruz as scum. If EB dies tonight, then I'm cleared and you know it's Elli or Neruz. If EB survives the night we're lynching me and you'll know my alignment then. It still remains Elli or Neruz for endgame and it would depend on who the NK was as to whom would be in the line of fire.

Your vote is on WV, and you have shown no indication you want to lynch me today, so by ARGUING with me about it you're just wasting time and taking up space in the game. If WV isn't scum then I'm cleared or dead tomorrow, so this whole discussion is just useless noise where you're trying to LOOK like you're scumhunting but you're doing nothing useful at all. This makes it look like you're not town. It's a scumtell.

Do you understand me now?

[Banshee]

thing is i would prefer not to lynch you today as pretty much we get a confirmed alligment out of you tommurrow, unless you are a roleblocker, which is unlikely.

Soooo.... much.... fail....

Look, worry about tomorrow tomorrow. There's already a plan in place and I think we all support it. If we're lucky WV is scum and it won't even matter. We're waiting on Elli to post and then we'll know one way or the other I suspect.

If you want to question someone whose alignment won't be proven tomorrow, go for it. But stop asking pointless questions that achieve nothing for town just to look like you are scumhunting. It's a complete waste of time.

[Banshee]

But if we have a tommurrow and we don't get you "cleared" then we have evidence that you are not just a VT in the wrong side of a gambit.

Once again you have failed at logic.

If I were a scum roleblocker and I roleblocked EB, that's my action. I can't kill too and anyway EB is jailkeeping me. So therefore if I were roleblocker, I would be lynched tomorrow since it would be no kill and, wow, you caught scum. That's a win for town.

Since I am town, then if the scum choose to no-kill, well, then my death is a null since some townie would have died overnight so I'm good with being the lynch since it's no different than if I were the NK.

If EB or anyone else is killed then you know that I am town (since I'm guaranteed to survive til tomorrow anyway) and things can proceed from there. But there is literally NO POINT in discussing it now.

I recall you having this same discussion with Llamarble. It didn't make you look any better then than it's doing now.

[Banshee]

Everyone knows this. Did you read the rules linked to from the front page?

[Banshee]

Please read here and go down to the specific part that covers Roleblockers. It was relevant a couple of game days back when we were discussing who EB was going to protect/block. It's part of why I think he's actually the role he says he is and also pro-town.

[Banshee]

[Banshee]

@Ellibereth

Any issue with hammering (or someone else hammering) WeirdVoigts?

The plan is to lynch WV. If he flips scum, that should be game. If not, EB is going to JK me and either clear me or lynch me tomorrow if there's no NK. Then we see where we are after that.

Acceptable?

[Banshee]

Because EB suspects me most and thinks I'm most likely to be scum. He's wrong, but I lack the energy to care or argue. Anyway I'm hoping WV is the last scum anyway.

[Banshee]

Also in relation to killing and roleblocking, i'm not sure if GreyICE does it since it doesn't seem to be in his ruleset, but it's not uncommon for a mafia roleblocker (or other role with action) to be able to both submit a kill and action, but only if they are the last mafia standing.

It's in there (factional abilities and role abilities) and it's as you describe. But that doesn't matter if the roleblocker is himself being roleblocked, since his ruleset is specific about the effects of roleblocking on a factional kill.

[Banshee]

Why is Banshee the jailkeep target over otherpeople again?

Most likely to be scum that we wouldn't catch.

I actually understand and can empathise with this line of reasoning, so I'm fine with the plan as it stands.

[Banshee]

Still ready to hammer whenever. Are we still waiting on Elli?

[Banshee]

I'm okay with whoever wants to hammer now. My vote is just to go ahead. WV disappearing after I actually made my case on him makes me think he may well be scum anyway, so I don't see a point in delaying.

[Banshee]

Meh, I don't mind waiting I suppose. Just bored, sorry.

[Banshee]

You can hammer whenever you want, EB. As I said, I'm bored with waiting already.

[Banshee]

As I said, I'm fine with being lynched today. Just please, lynch Thomith tomorrow because if you let him win I'm going to be really mad.

[Banshee]

Okay. First up, Implosion is right. If Thomith is scum given 117, then the scum team deserve to win. I could put up an entire list of scummy things Thomith has done (and have) but I don't suppose I believe it. However, my primary reasoning for not thinking Thomith is scum now is the patience that the scum team is showing. Thomith's play has not been the kind of patient and thoughtful that would have no-killed on both jailkeeping nights. It takes a special kind of acting proficiency to be the patient, calculating no-kill mastermind AND the bumbling, too-scummy-to-be-scum character Thomith has been in this game. I'm going to recant and say I was probably wrong here.

My town list right now is this:

• Implosion - cleared
  EB - cleared because of balance issues
  Thomith - cleared because of the no-kill
  

Of course I know my own alignment so I'm on the cleared list for myself. But I absolutely SHOULD NOT BE for ANYONE else. I think you should lynch me anyway because the choice then would be between Elli and Neruz and i think you can kill them before they can kill you. Leaving me alive just results in WIFOM in end game (much like I'm experiencing with Thomith) and it's not going to help town.

Of course EB will be killed tonight assuming he's town; if not, then he's scum for sure. The scum can't afford the chance of being jailkept in end game, I think. Meh, there won't be any way to know before tomorrow anyway.

For ME, right now, the scum is between Ellibereth and Neruz. I made a case earlier on Neruz here and given the recent flips I was looking at it again. The problem is that Ellibereth has not posted enough to get any kind of read. I was pretty sure the fit she threw after VoidedMafia had been lynched but before he had flipped was a virtual guarantee she was town though. It didn't have the same fake feel as Neruz's "Why is Beck confirmed town?", which, to me, seems like a scum gambit. A pretty good one too, only spoiled by the later asking for credit.

I think you should lynch me, though. If I were in your place I would do it. I know I'm not scum but I also know leaving me alive right now leads to WIFOM in end game and that SUCKS. I have been horrid at scumhunting this game. I spotted VoidedMafia but that's it, I haven't been right once since, so you're not losing a great asset anyway.

Right now we have this:

• Implosion
  EB
  Thomith
  Neruz
  Ellibereth
  Banshee

If you lynch me then you have:

• Implosion
  EB
  Thomith
  Neruz
  Ellibereth

EB dies tonight (he has to, if they're smart and he's not scum)

Now you have:

• Implosion
  Thomith
  Neruz
  Ellibereth

You have to no lynch here. Implosion dies here, and... crap.

• Thomith (likely town)
  chooses between Neruz and Ellibereth.
  

Okay. I don't know how you avoid that last thing. By no-lynching today, maybe, but seems like a really bad idea to me.

I can't prove my alignment so I don't see how it's helpful for me to go to end game (and I certainly will if I'm not lynched today) and I surely don't see how you don't end up with Thomith making this choice. Sorry, I'll think about this more. But I don't have a good way to avoid that last scenario.

If I could lynch one person right now, it would be Neruz. I'm not sure I'm right though. I'll make a case on him if you want, Implosion. Sorry not to be more help.

[Banshee]

No lynch does not help us.

Right now we have this:

• Implosion
  EB
  Thomith
  Neruz
  Ellibereth
  Banshee
  

If we no-lynch, we have:

• Implosion
  EB
  Thomith
  Neruz
  Ellibereth
  Banshee

EB dies tonight (he has to, if they're smart)

Now you have:

• Implosion
  Thomith
  Neruz
  Ellibereth
  Banshee
  

We lynch Neruz here (or Elli, it comes out to the same):

Either town wins right here, or Implosion dies.

Thomith, me and Elli or Neruz. Same scenario as before, Thomith being the deciding factor.

If we no-lynch again, Implosion dies, and we have:

• Thomith
  Neruz
  Elli
  Banshee

Town lynches Neruz. Possible town win here. If Elli is scum, though...

• Thomith
  Elli kills Thomith or Banshee
  Banshee
  

Loss in Endgame

[Banshee]

If you're not going to lynch me, then we need to lynch Neruz.

If you do lynch me, you need to lynch Neruz tomorrow.

I'll go along with either.

[Banshee]

implosion is right, and Thomith is not likely to be scum.

I don't know what to think about Elli but I do know that that player has significantly reduced their contribution sitewide lately. I already told the towntell I thought Elli gave when VoidedMafia was already lynched.

For me, the scum is to be found in Neruz/Ellibereth with a preference for Neruz as being scum.

If EB is scum, then the game is badly imbalanced. Town should look at it like this:

Implosion and EB and yourself = town. Thomith is not conftown but you should treat him as such because if he's not, he's the most brilliant actor I've ever seen. And I don't think that's likely.

So scum must be in the other three.

If you lynch me today it won't matter as long as you lynch Neruz tomorrow. But in my view you MUST lynch Neruz on one of these two times to win. I truly don't believe Elli is scum.

[Banshee]

ok I'll read later but thoughts sticking in my head

Beck slip is STUPID
banshee is town (have you ever played with me on your past account? just curious)

Voided is town blahblahfuckingblah but that doesn't matter anymore
wierded I dunno. Normally I'd be pissed about the hammer but noone really gives a shit about today going on including me so etc. I haven't really been reading that slot.

Llama's town for stuff and wanting to derail this wagon.
Rainbow's town.
Bullet/Neruz I've been lazy and not looknig at their post hammer thingys in detail will do that asap.
lolthomith

This is why I think Elli is town. VM had already been lynched and we were waiting for nightfall.

Look at the number of town clears there too. Scum don't like doing that, because it limits options.

Meh, it's not a great case but Elli has been really lurky and I don't have anything better.

I already made a case on Neruz. Can do it again, but I can just link to it if you prefer.

[Banshee]

I'm curious how that would work, anyway. Three cults in 13 players. Would you start with three cult leaders, and they would recruit each night? What if they recruited the same person? Would they start with one recruit? That would be six of the 13 players as cult already. Why would you be calling people scummy in the first part of the game when there really wouldn't be room for any scum in that setup anyway?

The numbers don't support this argument for me. Maybe in a large theme.

[Banshee]

@Neruz: You're seriously sticking to a claim that you believed that there would be three cult recruiters in a 13-person game? Did you think there would be scum in the game? How would you have distinguished between scum and cult? What do you think would have happened if they had recruited the same person on a given night? What would be the wincon, anyway? Assuming that each cult leader recruited each night and that there were no duplicates, the cult members would in aggregate outnumber the townies. What then? Would they continue to recruit until the town was gone? At what point would winning be achieved?

Wouldn't that have to be in the rules in order to understand how to win? Were you trying to lynch cult members at the start of the game? Why weren't you alerting the rest of the town about this during the RVS stage?

[Banshee]

You were questioning this well after the RVS stage when the rules were available and you were still perplexed.

How do you reconcile your superior and condescending attitude throughout the first part of the game with your admission that you didn't think at all in this case? Doesn't that seem like pretty serious cognitive dissonance of some sort? Was the condescension more or less an act to catch scum?

[Banshee]

If we're not lynching me today (and I'm pretty sure EB has his heart set on this) then I would like to lynch Neruz. I think he's most likely to be scum. But I have only so-so confidence in my read on this. Also, I have no Ellibereth meta and I don't know how he differs when he's scum or town. What I've read lately ALL seems the same and it all seems town to me so I think my scumdar must be broken where he's concerned.

So I'm announcing my intent of sheeping Implosion because he seems to have a better, more objective handle on the game than I do. I'll help with whatever cases and stuff but I don't want to trust my own judgment here because if I'm wrong we could lose.

[Banshee]

In this regard, I have heard the argument that it's a good idea for scum to vote for other scum in RVS to help instill an idea that the players are at odds in case of cardflips later on. I think this is crap, and I think Neruz is better than that.

It's null or possibly a slight towntell since scum-Neruz might not have done that. But definitely not a scumtell imo.

@Neruz:
Sorry to keep hammering you with questions. I'm just wondering if you remember what made you think that VoidedMafia was scum?

[Banshee]

Okay. That makes sense to me.

My other question has to do with the whole "hammering a townie" controversy that came up twice in this game. When I replaced in, it looked like Evil Bullet was going to be lynched because he'd hammered a town read of his. I was looking at the game from a different perspective and I thought I saw what he was thinking and why things had happened the way they had. So I didn't want to lynch him. (I don't remember knowing he was a power role then so I'm going to say that I didn't know and that he hadn't been outed as one to you either. I'm pretty sure I'm right on that.)

When it turned out he hadn't been hammered, I voted for VoidedMafia because I'd seen something in the early game I didn't like. I don't remember what it was, but I could look it up again if that becomes important. It was something I thought was obvious though.

A long way to go for this question. But, do you still think it's horribly scummy to hammer a town read? Are there situations in which you might do the same? What were you thinking when I abandoned the near-lynch and went off on my own tangent about VoidedMafia? (Which I wasn't all that confident about, but more confident than in EB's lynch.)

[Banshee]

As I've said, my scum reads have sucked this game apart from the jump on VoidedMafia, which I can't help but feel was about 50% luck. I still get a strong towntell from Elli but, much like Vollkan, it's possible that I can't read him because his posting style and logic makes sense to me and so I always think he's town.

If we lynch in the pool of {me, Elli, Neruz} by my best guess we end up with a 50% chance of winning even by random chance. Pretty sure implosion has to be the night kill in order to prevent a confirmed townie from leading the town, but it really doesn't matter since they aren't going to NK Thomith so it's between EB and implosion anyway. From an objective standpoint I'd say that an EB nightkill would tend to make me look more suspicious and an implosion one would be a nulltell.

Not sure any of this helps but I think if we lynch in the pool above we're good. I'll vote whenever we're ready for that.

[Banshee]

the first one is probably impossible but how is the second?

Think about this for yourself for a moment.

What is the primary characteristic of a scumteam?

(Hint: They kill at night.)

Why is the first possibility probably impossible?

[Banshee]

Ellibereth: Please concentrate on looking for scumtells on me and Neruz. You can look for Thomith too but I think he just demonstrated why the recent alternate night no-kills are unlikely to be the result of his actions or nonactions.

I think this particular argument is just sidetracking actual content.

[Banshee]

Tell me one thing. If I commit to an Elli lynch and Elli flips town and I die tonight. Who will you lynch tomorrow? Cuz I can't support this if Banshee won't die but at the same time leaving Thomith and Neruz to endgame is just... ugh. If we lynch Banshee today and then you guys commit to an Elli lynch tomorrow, I'll be happier.

You discount the idea that Neruz could be scum? This seems to indicate so.

[Banshee]

Meh. I went looking for meta on Elli again and found Open 312, Venomous Intentions, where he was scum with Llama. It looks about the same as here, though maybe Elli cared slightly more here. I don't know. Link is here. I suck at meta analysis so if anyone wants to look at that, I'd be grateful; to me it looks the same.

On a more important note to me, if you lynch me today, EB, who do you want lynched tomorrow? From my perspective it puts our chances of victory at a coinflip, but I realise that it won't look the same for others. I don't believe that Neruz really thought that there would be three cults. I just don't buy that, so that's why my suspicion keeps falling back there. He was too confident, too arrogant, and too condescending early on for me to believe that he would make such a noob mistake. His pride would not have allowed it, imo.

So in the event I'm lynched today I want Neruz for tomorrow. Please don't forget.

[Banshee]

Neruz or elli should be lynched today imo.

Which one do you think is more likely to be scum at the moment?

I'm having serious indecisiveness. And I feel like I can only pick one because I figure I'm the other lynch regardless. And I'm sure my being alive is screwing up EB's ability to read the other two, so I am torn about whether it's better to go ahead and be lynched and let you guys decide it tomorrow without this distraction or to try to fight and make cases when I'm not really sure of who is scum between Elli and Neruz.

Neruz has admitted to hypocrisy, has had weird reactions about VoidedMafia, has made this whole weird argument about how he believed in three cults in a mini and didn't think about it more. (I would run away from three cults in a mini, personally, so he's also copping to masochism.) But he's ADMITTED all this. Would scum? I just don't know.

But Ellibereth has lurked and played to scum meta in my opinion and has contributed almost nothing. Nonetheless my gut reads him as town. I need more content and more analysis from Elli and I don't think I'm going to get it.

I just don't know who the scum is. I feel like EB would be able to think about it more clearly if I were lynched to take away the WIFOM, but if I'm dead I figure he's dead too because there's no advantage in keeping him alive to endgame if he's not going to lynch me for the scum. So is it better to be lynched now and put it to implosion/EB (whichever one survives) and Thomith to decide?

I honestly don't know.

Thinking about it some more.

[Banshee]

@EB: Who will you lynch tomorrow if you're not NKed?

Who between Neruz and Elli do you think is more likely scum?

[Banshee]

Is your case against Elli just lurking or do you have a meta read that says he's scum? I don't need links since I'm pretty sure you're conftown, just need to know if you're basing it solely on lurkiness.

[Banshee]

If I'm going to argue for my lynch and trust you to lynch the scum tomorrow I need more confidence that you have a clue who the remaining scum is. You don't seem all that confident. I know *I* am not all that confident. If implosion is sure it's Elli then I'm going to go with that.

I realise there's no way you can know my alignment, EB, and I get that you think I'm scum. I understand why too. But from MY perspective I have to trust that you guys will lynch correctly when I'm gone. If I were sure about who the scum was I'd be pushing my own read. I think it's Neruz, and I've said so. Implosion thinks it's Elli and so do you (second to me, obviously).

Okay. I would like to request that Ellibereth and Neruz each explain to me why the other one is more likely to be scum than they are. Or, heck, explain to me why I'm scummier than either of you. I don't care. But say SOMETHING about someone else in this game that I can use to make some sort of decision.

Please.

[Banshee]

The problem with that is that no one is objective enough to make a case convincingly on themselves either way.

I could offer to make a case on myself as scum or town but my own knowledge of my alignment would interfere with the objective observation of the facts and would prevent anything I say from being valuable.

It's much better to ask people to comment on others, even if you can't derive any associative flips now.

To see what I mean here, try to make a case on yourself as town. We have time right now, so you could see why it's difficult and it feels forced and wrong for town to do. (I've never tried to do this as scum, so I don't know if it's different then.)

[Banshee]

At this point I'd almost settle for a weather report from each of them. Or the case on me from EB. Something, anything that might actually help us figure this out.

[Banshee]

I don't mind waiting if you guys are working on things.

If anyone wants something from me (a case on someone, or a defense of why I'm town, even) I can go ahead and do that. Just let me know what you want and I'll start working on it ASAP.

[Banshee]

Sorry to be slow to comment on this, I was catching up on some much-needed sleep.

I'm an alt of a player who was active about two years ago, so Implosion is correct about that being my only completed game. Silverbullet (one of the players behind the Evil Bullet hydra) played that game with me and would be a better objective source of information on it. His vote is on me, I think, so he may not think there is a difference. I can't be objective, but I do think I demonstrated less willingness to put my own opinions on the line, a greater propensity to "allow myself to be persuaded" to lynch people other than my main target, and overall just a less honest attempt to figure out the game. But I can't be sure that anyone but me would be able to tell those differences.

I can answer questions about that game if you want, but I don't really know what they would be.

[Banshee]

Ellibereth:

Do you consider Thomith a viable suspect?

I'm not considering EB as possible scum. Should I be, and why or why not?

(No hurry on these answers, I know that you're in the middle of things. Just, if you can get to them I'd be grateful.)

[Banshee]

@Thomith:

What was the advantage of a no-kill last night from a scum perspective?

[Banshee]

@Thomith: Can you think of any other reason scum might not have killed last night?

[Banshee]

This is why I don't think Thomith can be scum.

Why would scum have no-killed last night? Because they wanted to frame me, or

because I am the scum and I couldn't kill.

EB knows this second part, it's why he's got a vote on me. Elli and Neruz both know it, because they're considering me as a suspect. However, Thomith doesn't seem to consider that I could be scum.

As it happens, he's right, but he's not going about things right from a scum standpoint. Scum would ALWAYS allow for the possibility that I am scum and that's why there was a no-kill. Otherwise they would have lost a NK for almost no reason.

I was very certain Thomith was scum before. But I don't think that now. And I won't support his lynch because I simply don't believe scum would behave like that in regards to me.

[Banshee]

Why Neruz is scum and Ellibereth is town:

Early in the game, Neruz came under pressure because he showed confusion of motives by identifying someone as scummy while continuing to vote in the RVS phase. The reason this is scummy is not because random voting is scummy, but because town is paranoid. It's just a usual fact that town is paranoid and that if they see a scumtell they want to pressure it. Neruz argues that Thomith was already under enough pressure, but that's not the case at the time that Neruz identifies the scumtell, so he's confused either the facts or his own motives by looking back on them.

Neruz responded to that pressure by becoming insulting and rude to numerous people in the game. When the pressure let up, his playstyle changed. Throughout the game, when Neruz has been pressured he has responded with vitriol out of proportion to the offense, especially by calling others names (I did a funny post of all the names he called people) and basically shrieking until people stopped pressuring him. This seems like a scum tactic; town wouldn't be so committed to individual survival and certainly wouldn't attack more than half the town in this hysterical way when in fact town was doing very well for itself with two scum lynches in a row.

During endgame, where it's obvious you don't want to make anyone really mad because they might vote you (and this is doubly true for the one remaining scum) Neruz has once again changed his playstyle, behaving in a conciliatory manner, admitting to hypocrisy, and generally acting humble. He puts me and Elli on the same level but votes Elli since there's already a vote on Ellibereth while lining up a lynch on me with EB for tomorrow (and probably guaranteeing implosion's death tonight). His case on Elli is lurking; that's valid, but he's pushing a LURKER lynch tonight? He couches it almost like a policy lynch during the ending phases of the game: "i just cannot in good conscience let someone who's active lurked as hard as Elli make it to lylo". Why would town think a policy lynch was a good idea now?

Elli has lurked throughout the game and behaved in a generally unhelpful manner. He continues to behave exactly the same or even more abrasively now than he did earlier in the game. His explanation about how he sure does wish we wouldn't suspect him because it would be so much easier for him? WHY would scum EVER say something so ridiculous? How would that make it easier to lurk to victory?

Meh, I have read this game ENOUGH now and I've made my decision and I'm sticking with it and not second-guessing myself anymore. I may be wrong but I'm tired of being indecisive.

VOTE: Neruz

[Banshee]

I disagree. Why would scum be paranoid? They KNOW the town is out to get them, and they know who all the town are. TOWN don't know where the attack is coming from and are more likely to jump on a small scumtell as evidence for someone being scum. In my experience town is more likely to suspect others on less serious grounds, while scum are more likely to freak out under pressure on themselves.

It's possible we're defining paranoid differently. I define it as "seeing enemies everywhere, even where they do not actually exist." What is your definition?

[Banshee]

Obviously Neruz isn't going to agree with my above assessment whether it's right or wrong. But I would really welcome any criticism or corrections from anyone else, please. If I'm wrong I want to know it now, not after the game is over

[Banshee]

As I said, I think my definition may vary from that of others. I think town is more likely to be suspicious and express that suspicion on minor causes, while scum would not wish to express suspicion on relatively small grounds due to the possibility that they will be perceived as trying to push a mislynch on minimal evidence.

[Banshee]

Banshee: explain how precisely you came to this:

Vote: Neruz

from this:

So I'm announcing my intent of sheeping Implosion because he seems to have a better, more objective handle on the game than I do. I'll help with whatever cases and stuff but I don't want to trust my own judgment here because if I'm wrong we could lose.

Because you don't seem certain either.

If Elli is town, and we lynch him today, then you'll be nightkilled and I'll be lynched tomorrow. That's a town lose. Neruz and EB have already set it up (quote available on request). I see no way you're going to be alive tomorrow to change anyone's minds either.

If I'm going to be lynched tomorrow regardless, at least I should vote the person I think most likely to be scum today. But THIS is why I was arguing so strongly to be lynched TODAY. Because if we lynch Elli and he's town, we've lost. At least by tomorrow you'd have the nightkill to go off and you'd be between two people I know MIGHT be scum. Right now from MY perspective it is LYLO right here unless you lynch me TODAY and not tomorrow. Yeah, ideally I wouldn't be lynched at all and if Elli is scum that's great. But if we don't lynch scum today then I'm the lynch for tomorrow and we lose.

Do you see what I mean by this?

So if you can say, yes, I'm SURE Elli is the scum (not just a plurality, but a clear majority of certainty) then I'll sheep you, implosion. Otherwise I have to try to prevent our loss tomorrow by voting for who *I* think is scum today.

[Banshee]

Okay. If we lynch Elli today, and you are killed tonight, it is me, Thomith, EB and Neruz. I can understand people arguing for a no-lynch because they think it will allow EB to clear someone. But it really doesn't matter who EB jailkeeps because scum won't kill and then it will be the next day and we'll be no further along...

If you think that EB is possibly scum then you would want to lynch tomorrow for sure. Because EB could be framing me today and then put in a kill after claiming to jailkeep Neruz, thus framing me effectively on the day after too.

But EB is not likely to be scum given the setup and the power roles as they have been presented. So no, I don't know why you would insist on a lynch tomorrow.

Sorry

[Banshee]

In my opinion Neruz's playstyle has changed dramatically in endgame. He's become extremely reasonable and even humble after a game full of insulting the other players and asserting his own mental superiority. Even his entry into the game was pretty scummy with the "Why are you not voting your top scumread?" argument. Yes, town should almost always be voting their top scumread. His motives for not doing so are confused repeatedly (go back and reread it, if you doubt me) and he says Thomith is under enough pressure at the time that Neruz says he picked up scumpoints when he's actually under none at all. (What are scumpoints anyway? It sounds like something you'd buy at the hardware store. But I digress.)

EB and implosion are conftown (yes, I know EB is not but he's town, so deal with it). Thomith should not vote for whichever one of them is left no matter what.

I believe implosion is right and if EB is alive tomorrow we can safely lynch (even me) and trust in him to keep us safe through the night, so we'll win anyway.

I just want to wait for implosion to weigh in once more and then I'm willing to vote for Elli even though I'm not sure he's scum. But I could be wrong on him, and someone has to compromise at this point so it may as well be me.

[Banshee]

Since you keep bringing it up and seem

desperate

to know Banshee, the reason my attitude has changed in the last few weeks is because my overall attitude has actually changed.

Mafia is a game of discerning attitudes. I was not desperate to know of personal events in your life, because I would have no way to know about them and could not be expected to take them into account, anymore than you could take into account my personal situation or how it might affect what we do inside and outside this game. We can only read what is there to read. I was judging you to be scum based on your postings in the thread, nothing more. If you feel uncomfortable that I was asking you questions about your behaviour in this thread, then I apologise. I honestly have no other way of finding scum or playing the game other than questioning others.

I am sorry for your personal situation. I do not think it's reasonable to infer that someone questioning your behaviour in the game is desperate to know about your personal situation, however. It is a GAME and people WILL ask questions about in game behaviours as a factor of the way the game is played. It's not meant as a personal slam at you or to be intrusive, any more than if you call me scummy it means you're passing judgment on my real life behaviour. It's important to keep these things distinct in order not to have situations like this.

VOTE: Ellibereth

[Banshee]

Yeah, sorry for not waiting for implosion before hammering but I really don't know what to make of Neruz's post to me and I just would rather have the day over and possibly the game over.

[Banshee]

Meh, whatever. I don't think it's the best idea to give that kind of information out over what someone thinks of you in a GAME.

If you are scum, though, it's the best stratagem ever, because I'm literally afraid to talk to you or vote you now. So EB will get his wish and lynch me tomorrow