Secret Society Mafia - Game Over

[whispersilk]

/confirm

[whispersilk]

VOTE: Baby Spice

I hate the Spice Girls.

[whispersilk]

Sorry, I've been mostly without internet for the last few days. I will do a catch up tonight.

[whispersilk]

So yeah, Hi, I'm whisper. I've been pretty much AWOL from the site for over a week, which frankly, has had little impact on my posting level in this game. See 2.

10 Things you should know about me:

1/ I am female.
2/ I lurk, especially day 1, and especially in larger games. Why? Because I find scum better when I read pages and pages of a game at once, rather than keeping up with the game in real time, and because I like to sit back and watch interactions between players before getting involved. Deal with it. It's how I play.
3/ I might suggest the town do crazy things, or do crazy things myself. Why? See 1.
4/ Archer is my favourite cartoon, and Sterling Archer is my hero.
5/ I might AtE often, especially when it's crucial that I remain in the game. Why? See 1.
6/ That being said, I have, and will, willingly sacrifice myself if it's in the best interests of the town.
7/ I will tunnel those that I want to tunnel.
8/ I don't often post reads.
9/ I always follow my gut, but I also pay attention to meta.
10/ There is method to my madness.

I'm going to read over everything for a 3rd time, and post all my questions and thoughts tomorrow.

UNVOTE:

[whispersilk]

sageamagoo, stop calling me smart. I've never even played with you before.

[whispersilk]

Spoiler: wispersilk

So yeah, Hi, I'm whisper. I've been pretty much AWOL from the site for over a week, which frankly, has had little impact on my posting level in this game. See 2.

10 Things you should know about me:

1/ I am female.
2/ I lurk, especially day 1, and especially in larger games. Why? Because I find scum better when I read pages and pages of a game at once, rather than keeping up with the game in real time, and because I like to sit back and watch interactions between players before getting involved. Deal with it. It's how I play.
3/ I might suggest the town do crazy things, or do crazy things myself. Why? See 1.
4/ Archer is my favourite cartoon, and Sterling Archer is my hero.
5/ I might AtE often, especially when it's crucial that I remain in the game. Why? See 1.
6/ That being said, I have, and will, willingly sacrifice myself if it's in the best interests of the town.
7/ I will tunnel those that I want to tunnel.
8/ I don't often post reads.
9/ I always follow my gut, but I also pay attention to meta.
10/ There is method to my madness.

I'm going to read over everything for a 3rd time, and post all my questions and thoughts tomorrow.

UNVOTE:

Let's sum this up. You are yourself when you:
- lurk
- do crazy things
- use AtE
- tunnel
- don't post reads
- vote someone for gut

You basicly do every thing scum does when you are town?

Are you saying that lurking, AtE and tunelling are exclusively scum tells?

What an incredibly easy way to keep players from voting you.

Oh, my play style is not one aimed at keeping people voting for me, it's aimed at catching scum and aiding the town to a win.

[whispersilk]

@sorgster:

17 posts in the game. I'd like to see more from you because:

I haven't been paying much attention to this game in truth. I did a quick iso on magister ludi and his posts have rarely had little other than fluffiness from what I've seen.

Vote Magister Ludi

At the point you made this post, you had 5 posts in the game. One was your "confirm" post, two was your "RVS" post, three, four and five were nothing more than useless fluff. So of your actual game posts, you were hitting a 100% fluff rate. By your own admission in your very next post, you classified only 3 of Ludi's first 34 posts as being actual fluff. That's what, a less than 10% fluff rate?

Your two posts after you ISO'd him reiterated your opinion. Then after two questions from other players regarding your Ludi vote, you said this:

After doing that iso though, even with a few fluffy posts he seemed less and less like scum.

Why didn't you give your thoughts on, or ISO anyone else?

In your post 11, you unvoted Ludi and voted for Otolia. You didn't give any reason for this vote. Could you please give one now? Or were you just sheeping someone else's case against him?

Your next three posts are questioning why Otolia hadn't defended himself. Was he supposed to be defending a case that you had made against him, or were you just kindly pointing out how he hadn't defended himself against

someone else's

case?

[whispersilk]

Are you saying that lurking, AtE and tunelling are exclusively scum tells?

What an incredibly easy way to keep players from voting you.

Oh, my play style is not one aimed at keeping people voting for me, it's aimed at catching scum and aiding the town to a win.

Lurking is a scum tell, yes.

I asked if you thought lurking was

exclusive

to scum. Because I don't.

FYI, I don't care what kind of disclaimer you post beforehand, I lynch people who lurk, and I especially think that's usually a great use of the town's day 1 lynch. I think that's generally the pro-town thing to do, because lurking both hurts the town and makes it easier for scum to hide. The fact that you're trying to set up a pre-emptive excuse to make it ok for you to lurk later actually makes you look worse if you do end up lurking, not better.

I'm not trying to set up anything. Introducing myself in that way was meant to point out that I lurk on day 1 in

all

my games, and that if it's indicative of anything in this case, it would be of me being town. I don't want to get lynched for playing the way I feel most comfortable playing. You're welcome to check all 5 of my completed games to confirm my meta, because in all 5 I was town, and in all 5 I lurked hard on day 1. Once I've gotten over my lurking phase, I generally participate as much, if not more than most other players.

Generally, I think lurking is a null tell, and lynching someone on day 1 just because they lurk is daft, but not as daft as my theory of lynching the towniest player on day 1.

[whispersilk]

It's not that

not

lurking is hard for me to do, it's that I play better and pick up on a lot more if I lurk on day and just watch everyone interact. I hope you can see the difference.

[whispersilk]

@sorgster:

17 posts in the game. I'd like to see more from you because:

I haven't been paying much attention to this game in truth. I did a quick iso on magister ludi and his posts have rarely had little other than fluffiness from what I've seen.

Vote Magister Ludi

At the point you made this post, you had 5 posts in the game. One was your "confirm" post, two was your "RVS" post, three, four and five were nothing more than useless fluff. So of your actual game posts, you were hitting a 100% fluff rate. By your own admission in your very next post, you classified only 3 of Ludi's first 34 posts as being actual fluff. That's what, a less than 10% fluff rate?

Your two posts after you ISO'd him reiterated your opinion. Then after two questions from other players regarding your Ludi vote, you said this:

After doing that iso though, even with a few fluffy posts he seemed less and less like scum.

Why didn't you give your thoughts on, or ISO anyone else?

In your post 11, you unvoted Ludi and voted for Otolia. You didn't give any reason for this vote. Could you please give one now? Or were you just sheeping someone else's case against him?

Your next three posts are questioning why Otolia hadn't defended himself. Was he supposed to be defending a case that you had made against him, or were you just kindly pointing out how he hadn't defended himself against

someone else's

case?

I was pointing out he hadn't defended against someone else's case. That case seemed pretty solid to me and it seems very very likely otolia is scum.

Can you please answer my other questions?

[whispersilk]

Whisper: I will not write you a blank check. If you tunnel, please tunnel on scum or with logic. What I don't like is that you are using beeing female as an excuse.

Where did you lose your sense of humour?

[whispersilk]

If your playstyle (as Otolia’s claiming his does) causes you to receive pressure and possible be lynched you have two choices. Either accept that fact or alter your playstyle to a manner that isn’t perceived as scummy here on MS.

I've never received pressure from anyone due to my playstyle. Sure, a few people have commented that I can appear scummy at times, but I am rarely voted, and I've never been lynched. So I don't think I'll be changing anything right now, tbh. But thanks for the advice.

atm, I think Otolia and IceGuy are both town.

Voting sorgster for now. I would like answers to all my questions.
VOTE: sorgster

[whispersilk]

I don't want to get lynched for playing the way I feel most comfortable playing.

I've never received pressure from anyone due to my playstyle. Sure, a few people have commented that I can appear scummy at times, but I am rarely voted, and I've never been lynched. So I don't think I'll be changing anything right now, tbh. But thanks for the advice.

These two quotes do NOT mesh.

The first says you thought you might get lynched for playing ‘as your feel comfortable’. The second says that your history doesn’t indicate that to be the case.

That first sentence formed part of a much larger statement, and was it directed at Yosarian after he had stated he lynches people who lurk. It was followed immediately by me telling him that he was welcome to check my previous games. I didn't want him to vote for me without at least checking my town meta.

I feel that your “Here’s what I do” post is even more scummy now seeing this.

Taking a snippet from one of my posts and quoting it out of context in an effort to paint me with the scum brush is pretty lame.

Why bother to go out of the way for the elaborate post when historically you don’t receive pressure for playing that way? Doesn't compute from a Town perspective.

FOS – Whisper.

My post was not elaborate. It was simply meant to be a humerus way of introducing myself after being awol from the site for nearly a week, and to give people an idea of my slightly strange way of playing the game. I think muffin and BB are the only two players that I've completed games with, so I don't expect anyone else to know my meta.

[whispersilk]

You do understand that actively saying “Check my Town meta” unprompted means you are aware of your Town meta and thus craft your game towards it, right?

No, it means I didn't want someone who has stated he routinely lynches lurkers to vote for me without at least confirming my meta, and when I say meta, I'm talking about the one and only meta I have, because I've been town in all my games. I was also trying to prove a point about lurkers in general.

Furthermore … why were you worried about being lynched without significant votes on you when there are strong, dominate wagons currently active?

Where did I say I was worried?

You claim it is out of context. Does the rest of the post not move along the same themes? You were specifically replying to Yosarian regarding his inquiry into the reasons for your large “Hey, I play like this post”. Your response to me is in regards to the exact same topic – your motivations for posting that list in the first place.

It absolutely applies when I see two statements that directly conflict.

Where in that post did Yosarian inquire into my reasons for my "hey" post? As far as I'm concerned, we were debating lurking and lurkers and whether or not it was a scum tell, and not specifically my reasons for my original post. In fact, the point that I lurk on day 1 in all my games, was just one aspect of my original post, not the entire basis for it.

I don’t care about your meta. If you play in a manner I feel is scummy you will get suspicion for it.

Do you care about anyone's meta?

[whispersilk]

Ghostlin's vig claim appears legit after reading his ISO. So this means that one of the scum factions didn't get a kill in last night, maybe because one of their targets was being protected by MoI? I took a look through his ISO, and apart from listing his scummy reads a few times, he didn't really give any clear town reads; just made a couple of comments on a few players giving him townie vibes, like BS. If I had to guess, I'd say he protected her or muffin last night.

He attacks Ludi, Maxous, and Dry-Fit for questioning the point of a stupid question. Reeks to me of trying to seem like he's scumhunting.

Scum don't need to fake scumhunting when there are two scum factions in the setup. I have more thoughts on BB, and I'll try to find more time tomorrow to post them, but I'm going to have very limited internet access over the next 24 hrs.

PEdit:

(yes, WIFOM, I know) the possible scum motivation of someone scummy killing him, even if that gets me lynched.

True, but I thought you crumbed your claim pretty well.

[whispersilk]

Whispersilk also surprised me with her post, considering we did a lot of fighting about her wanting to lurk Day 1.

Sorry, which post are you referring to here?

Doing a catch up atm.

[whispersilk]

@whisper: why did you feel the need to explain your entire meta? All it means is that you know it well enough to manipulate it.

God, it was just meant to be a funny way to introduce myself after barely posting in the game up till that point. If I had known it would cause such a fuss, I would have simply said nothing and just got on with the game.

[whispersilk]

@Otolia: So your to say if I read the next 5 pages, you would suddenly be obvtown?

No what I am saying is that nobody cares about your reads based on the first 20 pages, either you post your updated reads or you stop flooding the thread with things that everyone know about. It looks like you are doing something but you are not. And you won't gain towncred from me for that.

I think reads given at the start of the game are as valuable to the town as reads given at any other point, especially when you have a scum flip as a reason to look back and try to find the reads that suggest who else might be scum. It's worked pretty well for me in the past, and while I don't think giving reads auto equals town cred, I don't think criticising someone for enthusiastically participating in the game by sharing his reads and thoughts, especially when they constitute less than 10 posts thus far is exactly town cred worthy either.

In post 601, StefanB wrote:
That that doesn't make sense is nothink new, (with 2 scumfactions the fact that two people are probably not scum together doesn't mean that both can't be scum) To miss that we have 2 scumteam is not an excuse that I believe posted now. So the only way that two people aren't scum together and you know that one is town, means that you are on the other scumteam.

Toasty: Please don't stop reading this game. Your posts are an interesting insight into your head. Frankly, we need more posters and your posts have contained more analysis than most of the rest of town so far.

I agree. Carry on toasty.

I'm doing my best to catch up, and I'll continue reading and commenting where I need to. I should be able to post some reads soon.

[whispersilk]

Done, and I will support lynches on DX and Jack.

With Jack - I don't have too much of a problem with his reads thing but too much focus has been on the defensive, not enough scumhunting for my liking.

@DarthYoshi: I agree that some people are wagoning Jakalope for his playstyle.
However I beleive Jakalope to be scum for seperate reasons, so I don't care.
You don't have to lynch scum with everyone providing the right reasoning.

That being said I am quite curious why he switched his vote to Alabaska.

Sorry if I've missed it while reading the game, but is there a particular reason why you find David scummy enough to keep your vote on him, rather than voting Jackalope, who you also believe is scum, and who has a bigger wagon and a much greater chance of being lynched today?

[whispersilk]

VOTE: Max

The useless vote on DX is even more suspicious now that Jak flipped wolf, and I don't believe Max's reason for not voting Jak when it was clear he was the main wagon.

[whispersilk]

What if Max did roleblock BB, but they are both town, and there was only one night kill for another reason entirely?

I also still think sorgster is scummy.

[whispersilk]

My vote is currently on Max. What reason are you referring to?

[whispersilk]

Wait, was that sarcasm?

[whispersilk]

Ok, good I'm going to unvote you for now. After reading events since toasty's revelation again, I'm no longer getting a scum vibe from you, and I'm not getting one from BB either. I think it could be a town-town debate, and there is another reason why there was only one overnight death. I think we should be looking at other people like sorgster, and leaving the whole Max/BB situation for another day (giving any potential investigative roles a chance to do their thing). I don't think BB should be forced to role claim unnecessarily.

unvote

Pedit: @Max

[whispersilk]

I really don't like a lot of people subtly saying they'd like a sorgster lynch and ignoring the Max/BB wagons. (or giving a crappy reason, such as wispersilk)
Hell, the sorgster wagon is a wonderful wagon for Max/BB-scumbuddies to go on as it is based on hardly anything.

Come to the max wagon, it is much better.

- CS

Oh man, so many Weasel words. Who is 'subtly' saying they'd like a Sorgster wagon? I don't think there's anything subtle about saying sorgster is scummy and voting for him. Who is 'ignoring' the major wagons? Disapproval isn't the same thing as ignoring, at all. Nor is not really getting the wagon. I mean, the only good point raised so far, I think, is Yos2's: if you RB someone you already suspected and a kill is prevented, you are unlikely to become less suspicious of that person.

I looked through your ISO and there is very very little interaction between you and sorgster. You asked him a couple of questions, but didn't follow up his answers (as far as I can see), and since then you haven't called him scum/scummy. Why do you find him scummy now?

[whispersilk]

What if Max did roleblock BB, but they are both town, and there was only one night kill for another reason entirely?

Either or both of those things are still possible, sure. Do you think that's the most likely scenerio here? And, if so, then who do you think we should lynch?

I don't really know what the most likely scenario is, but I think all possibilities should be considered before lynching either of them. There is just as much chance of someone else being responsible for the lack of a second night kill. I know I was one of the people that voted Max at first, but I then became alarmed at how many people just jumped on his wagon without really considering other reasons, and after thinking about it and reading what both of them had to say, I don't feel comfortable voting him anymore. I think Max would make a good investigative target tonight, but a poor lynch choice for today.

As for who should be lynched today, I think sorgster could be an option, but I need to go back and read him again. I'm kind of getting a bad town vibe, more than a scum vibe from him right now, and I'm not sure I like the way The Fonz voted for him, nor his reasons for finding him scummy. If Fonz's two questions to sorgster were that important, and sorgster's failure to answer them is now his primary reason for his vote, then I don't understand why he wouldn't have reminded or pushed sorgster to answer those questions before now.

Honestly, I haven't devoted as much time to this game as it deserves. But I'm in the process of rectifying that. I should have some reads after reading some more.

[whispersilk]

Wispersilk, I was wrong about. Mostly because I just can't remember her posting at all.
Maxous is the one the wagon is on.

wispersilk made sorgster is scummy posts, but again I couldn't recal her posting.
Maxous posted he was null about sorgster, but solely voted him to get an answer (which didn't go back to his actual scumsuspects)

Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying here. What were you wrong about?

[whispersilk]

At one point I actually felt a little sorry for him, and that is why I was getting bad town vibes rather than scum vibes, but after a re-read, he's only got worse, and I stand by the scum read I had on him from day 1.

VOTE: sorgster

I think this is L-1.

[whispersilk]

And Whisper SAID she was putting him at L-1 when she voted.

Incidentally, Whisper's ISO for today is horrible... Sorgster is scummy, vote Max, unvote Max we should be looking at people like Sorgster, I don't think Sorgster is scummy just bad town, I don't like Fonz' attack on Sorgster, vote Sorgster L-1.

You've read my ISO, changed the order of events and put your own spin on it to what? Point a soft FoS at me? OMGUS me?

The dangerous thing about what you've just done is that 99% of people won't bother to ISO me themselves and actually check to see if what you've stated is correct or a slur of the truth. They'll probably just take your word for it. Next time you want to FoS someone, have the decency to get your facts straight and provide links to the posts in question, so that they can be read fully and in context.

Today, I never mentioned sorgster before voting Max. I voted Max because of Toasty's revelation, then unvoted him after reading what he had to say and coming to the conclusion that there could be other reasons for just one night kill last night, and that perhaps he should be investigated. I simply didn't have a scum read on him anymore. After being asked, I clearly stated that sorgster was an alternative lynch for today. Although I had a scum read on him and voted him day 1, today I was kind of getting a bad town vibe more than the scum read I had on him before, and I made it clear I was going to re-read his contribution to the game so that I could get a better read and be confident enough to vote him. That is exactly what I did.

[whispersilk]

And Whisper SAID she was putting him at L-1 when she voted.

Incidentally, Whisper's ISO for today is horrible... Sorgster is scummy, vote Max, unvote Max we should be looking at people like Sorgster, I don't think Sorgster is scummy just bad town, I don't like Fonz' attack on Sorgster, vote Sorgster L-1.

You've read my ISO, changed the order of events and put your own spin on it to what? Point a soft FoS at me? OMGUS me?
.

I'm not spinning anything. I read your ISO and recounted it as I read it and I stand by the truth of my version of events. Do you deny that the vote before your vote for Max was a vote for sorgster?

No, I'm not disputing that my vote before Max was a vote on sorg, but my vote on sorg was back on

day 1

. This is

day 3

. The way you presented it:

"Incidentally, Whisper's ISO for today is horrible".

I didn't vote sorg today, or yesterday. You've basically suggested I called sorg scummy today/voted for him, then unvoted and voted Max, then voted sorg again when that is not the case at all. I didn't mention sorg at all today until after I had voted Max, and in response to someone saying he was scummy. You have completely spun events.

[whispersilk]

And yes, call it omgus all you want, your attacks on me have been scummy. Accusing me of not following up on answers when no answers were provided? Then suggesting that somehow voting Sorgster when he didn't provide an explanation of his scummy behaviour is somehow odd?

All I've asked of you is why you find sorg scummy (because I couldn't find anything in your posts that suggested why), and I didn't accuse you of anything. I even said "as far as I can see", aware that maybe I missed something.

Then I said this...

I'm not sure I like the way The Fonz voted for him, nor his reasons for finding him scummy. If Fonz's two questions to sorgster were that important, and sorgster's failure to answer them is now his primary reason for his vote, then I don't understand why he wouldn't have reminded or pushed sorgster to answer those questions before now.

Again, I'm only expressing the fact that I was not sure I liked your vote on him, or your reasons behind it, and then while talking to

someone else

, I said I didn't understand why you didn't push sorg to answer your questions. That's all.

So what "attacks" are you talking about?

[whispersilk]

Today, I never mentioned sorgster before voting Max. I voted Max because of Toasty's revelation

This is true, rereading your ISO. You do mention the fact that you find Sorg scummy in the next post, but you unvote Max rapidly after that. Then you have no vote until you revote Sorg for the end of the day.

I'm not entirely comfortable with your lack of much scumhunting or anything, and you'll be under the spotlight even more, but Fonz is throwing off scummy vibes right now, and if Sorg flips town, I know who I will probably be looking at Day 4.

Yeah, I know I've sucked in this game. I probably should have stuck to much smaller setups, because having so many players is a little intimidating and it's taken me ages to get into this game. However, I'm not going to replace out and I'll do my best to scumhunt from now on.

[whispersilk]

I will have very limited access for the next two days as I've just moved, and the internet is not set up in my new place yet, but I will post as and when I have access.

[whispersilk]

Did Fonz fake double vote or not?

[whispersilk]

No, I didn't miscount. Fonzies doublevote was real, and I did put sorg at L-1. The reason he wasn't lynched when OS voted him, was because OV already had his vote on him. Although I'm bemused by OS remembering well enough that he was voting someone, and to unvote, but not remembering that his vote was on sorg all along.

Peregrine pushing hard for Sorgster's lynch makes my town read on him diminish. I originally did think that I hammered Sorgster, but when I realized I hadn't I decided to say nothing to see if others would make the same mistake I did. The only apparent thing that I can take from it is that I believe Sorgster is telling the truth.

You knew enough to unvote before voting sorg. Who did you think you were unvoting?

[whispersilk]

Really?

Okay proddoge, exspect a better post soon.

I am inclined to believe Maxous but I agree with all sentiments that his play today especially the claim is... horrible. Sorg still looks bad as hell especially with that vote on Bogre.

Ya. Completely fine with a Sorgster or Max. I like Sorgster better because I find him more scummy than Max + Max could be useful for later.

VOTE: Sorgster

Reads from the last couple of pages...

Town:
DY
Yos
Ghost
Pere

Probably town:
Alabaska
Emp

Probably scum:
Max
BBmolla

Scum:
Sorg
DX

I am okay with lynching any of the bottom 4 people. Preferably Sorgster since I am very certain that he is likely scum.

[whispersilk]

Dodging being replaced. I will post content later today.

[whispersilk]

I can't believe we're back to lynching sorg again.

I'm really sucking on this site atm. I will buck up and post some reads as soon as I'm better.

[whispersilk]

I agree that we should try to aim for scum today if possible. I don't think sorg is wolf or scum. I'm going to look at DF in ISO.

[whispersilk]

My problem with both the leading wagons is this:

There are at least 3 scum around, possibly 4, and possibly one more wolf (taking game balance into account). That's between 3-6 anti town players, with even the possibility of a third party force as well. Unless there is some major bussing going on, both the leading wagons could have 2-3 scum on each. I don't know that I believe scum would be bussing so hard at this point, when there is still obviously a good chance of securing another mislynch. The fact that strong players like Yosarian2, Wraith, Ghostlin and StefanB are still in the game, and none of them have really fallen under any real suspicion is just weird. It's like the same two players are being pushed as possible lynch choices, and no one else is being looked at. I don't think lynching sorg is a good idea (because of his actions when he thought he had been lynched), and after looking at DF in ISO, I don't think he comes off any more or less scummy than some other players like The Fonz or Peregrine. Otolia came under a lot of suspicion earlier in the game, and had a couple of cases against him, but he's pretty much dropped off the radar now.

[whispersilk]

Yeah, and no one is interested in voting for him except the two leading wagons.

[whispersilk]

That sounded really sincere.

I don't think there are any more wolves.