Secret Society Mafia - Game Over

[Bogre]

That is efford for Iceguy, Ghostlin? Not so good. Found the game, reading ISOs there now.
Bogre: Why bring Lovecraft in this? And has any mod ever made a GreatOldOne in a role?
Sorry short post today, more I hope tomorrow.
Can't say if I will post on Wednesday, because I have little time that day.

Preview: Were have I backpackelt? IceGuy is corherent? Most of his case Has been disproven. Nothink to talk about other players?
Wow interesting post from IceGuy, but sorry not today.

Secret society? CULT OF CTHULU?

Don't you see how this is related?

[DarthYoshi]

I'm giving up on trying to argue with you idiots - you can safely continue your "IceGuy is scum because IceGuy is scum" circlejerk.

Here are my reads (town = +5, neutral = 0, scum = -5):

MoI, +3: Seems to be playing his town game here, but the Otolia "kill it with fire!!!" case smells fishy.
Baby Spice, +2: Started off rather scummy but now gives off town vibes. Willing to give benefit of the doubt.
PeregrineV, -2: Limited activity and content.
EtherealCookie, -4: Almost no content, wagon-jumping.
whispersilk: No read.
Otolia, 0: Has showed behavior which was scummy, but his response to the MoI case seems more annoyed town.
BBMolla, -4: Same as EtherealCookie.
TheJackalope, 0: At least some scumhunting, but also little real content and wagon-jumping.
Oversoul, +4: Genuine, but too little posting for a solid town read.
Wraith: No read.
Ghostlin, +3: Strange behavior in the beginning (voting ConS->Maxous->GW in the span of several posts) but otherwise genuine.
sageamagoo, 0: DY has a good point. Does give off some town vibes though.
Dry-Fit, -2: Same as PeregrineV.
Bogre, -4: Same as EtherealCookie.
Global Warming, 0: Don't like wagon-jumping and late miller claim. Rest seems genuine though.
Alabaska J: No read.
sorgster, +4: I doubt scum would put as much work into the Magister Ludi case as he did.
Yosarian2, +5: Genuine.
Magister Ludi, +1: Does give off town vibes but I find him hard to read. Meta tells don't seem to work.
David Xanatos, -2: Same as PeregrineV.
Maxous, -2: Posts enough but says little. Don't like wagon-jumping and zMuffinMan defense.

DarthYoshi, +5: Genuine and I mostly agree with him.

StefanB, -5: For reasons already stated approximately a million times.
zMuffinMan, -1: Early behavior town, don't like his StefanB defense and the Maxous/zMuffinMan connection.

DarthYoshi is totally on the same team as Iceguy.

I don't get the town vibes you seem to be getting, Ice. Certainly not enough to give him a full +5. Somehow, this list also seems to differ a little from what I think Ice would actually think. It seems he wants to make reads that fit other's ideas instead of using his own.

This presumes that IG, as a scum player, would be buddying DY. Often with scum, that's not the case.

Why do you think DY is scum?

Blatant prod dodge. RL got away from me the last couple of days, and I should have some time tomorrow and Wednesday to catch up. But after just skimming what I've missed, I want to point out what Ghosty is saying here. Scum aren't dense enough to create that kind of a trail to buddies. So the argument sageamagoo, is that if IceGuy is scum (which you certainly think he is--your vote is on him, anyways), then I am actually much more likely to be town.

So the question then becomes, is this post coming from frustrated town or scum trying to discredit their attacker? Given the weak foundation of attacking me based on an IceGuy association (as well as my general belief that players who try to hunt in scumteams before flips are more likely to be scum themselves), I'd say it's the latter.

Ghosty, why didn't you vote sageamagoo after this post?

I'll have more to say after I'm done catching up.

[Dry-fit]

Okay reading through I don't think Ice is actually all that scummy, even if his posts are bad. The only thing I really disliked was his attempt to goad Stefan into voting for him.

I think Ice and StephanB might be scum bussing each other. VOTE: Iceguy for having the most votes of the two.

This is scummier than anything Ice has done. I also don't like how sage backtracks on this later, saying this statement was only a "what if," and then declaring ANOTHER scumteam in Ice and Darth Yoshi. Seriously considering moving my vote to sage.

[Baby Spice]

Bogre, I was waiting for this answer;

[quote=Otolia]@BabySpice : A serious wagon is a wagon designed to lynch someone you think is scum. In order to get your target lynched, you need to work on asking him questions, analyzing his play and cornering his answers trying to provoke a mistake.[/quote]

Ok, back to strange. That answer strikes me more as a reason to not vote than a reason to vote.

Vote Otolia

[Ghostlin]

I'm giving up on trying to argue with you idiots - you can safely continue your "IceGuy is scum because IceGuy is scum" circlejerk.

Here are my reads (town = +5, neutral = 0, scum = -5):

MoI, +3: Seems to be playing his town game here, but the Otolia "kill it with fire!!!" case smells fishy.
Baby Spice, +2: Started off rather scummy but now gives off town vibes. Willing to give benefit of the doubt.
PeregrineV, -2: Limited activity and content.
EtherealCookie, -4: Almost no content, wagon-jumping.
whispersilk: No read.
Otolia, 0: Has showed behavior which was scummy, but his response to the MoI case seems more annoyed town.
BBMolla, -4: Same as EtherealCookie.
TheJackalope, 0: At least some scumhunting, but also little real content and wagon-jumping.
Oversoul, +4: Genuine, but too little posting for a solid town read.
Wraith: No read.
Ghostlin, +3: Strange behavior in the beginning (voting ConS->Maxous->GW in the span of several posts) but otherwise genuine.
sageamagoo, 0: DY has a good point. Does give off some town vibes though.
Dry-Fit, -2: Same as PeregrineV.
Bogre, -4: Same as EtherealCookie.
Global Warming, 0: Don't like wagon-jumping and late miller claim. Rest seems genuine though.
Alabaska J: No read.
sorgster, +4: I doubt scum would put as much work into the Magister Ludi case as he did.
Yosarian2, +5: Genuine.
Magister Ludi, +1: Does give off town vibes but I find him hard to read. Meta tells don't seem to work.
David Xanatos, -2: Same as PeregrineV.
Maxous, -2: Posts enough but says little. Don't like wagon-jumping and zMuffinMan defense.

DarthYoshi, +5: Genuine and I mostly agree with him.

StefanB, -5: For reasons already stated approximately a million times.
zMuffinMan, -1: Early behavior town, don't like his StefanB defense and the Maxous/zMuffinMan connection.

DarthYoshi is totally on the same team as Iceguy.

I don't get the town vibes you seem to be getting, Ice. Certainly not enough to give him a full +5. Somehow, this list also seems to differ a little from what I think Ice would actually think. It seems he wants to make reads that fit other's ideas instead of using his own.

This presumes that IG, as a scum player, would be buddying DY. Often with scum, that's not the case.

Why do you think DY is scum?

Blatant prod dodge. RL got away from me the last couple of days, and I should have some time tomorrow and Wednesday to catch up. But after just skimming what I've missed, I want to point out what Ghosty is saying here. Scum aren't dense enough to create that kind of a trail to buddies. So the argument sageamagoo, is that if IceGuy is scum (which you certainly think he is--your vote is on him, anyways), then I am actually much more likely to be town.

So the question then becomes, is this post coming from frustrated town or scum trying to discredit their attacker? Given the weak foundation of attacking me based on an IceGuy association (as well as my general belief that players who try to hunt in scumteams before flips are more likely to be scum themselves), I'd say it's the latter.

Ghosty, why didn't you vote sageamagoo after this post?

I'll have more to say after I'm done catching up.

Short reply:

1) I want to hear his justification for his assuming you're scum. Frankly, I'm getting tenative threads and I'm not liking it. In other words, a lot of scum by association and not a lot of scum.
2) So far....Otolia>DX>....sage, in my book right now. I still think Otolia's done more scummy things, although sage is getting bumped up.
3) A single vote on sage will not move today along. Pressuring wagons will move today along. If you can interpret what I've said above about scum not buddying each other (which you did, 100% correct) then the rest of town either thinks there are more important wagons or didn't catch it.

[Ghostlin]

Top four scum, in order: Otolia, DX, EC, Jack, to be clear. Sage would be one of the alternates to that list at this moment, but he could impress me.

[sageamagoo]

and finally,

scumhunting in terms of a scumteam on D1 is not infrequently done by scum to try to pretend to be more helpful than they are really being.

I want to point out what Ghosty is saying here.

Scum aren't dense enough to create that kind of a trail to buddies.

So the argument sageamagoo, is that if IceGuy is scum (which you certainly think he is--your vote is on him, anyways), then I am actually much more likely to be town.

Soo... you use an argument against me, and then you tell me it's ridiculous when I suggest Ice is paired with you?

[Global Warming]

Too many lurkers this game – DavidX, Oversoul, Bogre, Whisper, EC, Wraith, Alabaska, Otolia

Has to be scum hiding in that pool, probably a couple with one from each group.

QFT

Please defend yourself first.

Please stop ignoring the IceGuy wagon and start answering questions posed to you.

Spoiler: IceGuy

Regarding the circlejerk: I'm talking about the style of arguments.

I think somebody is town? Obviously I'm scum with him because I'm defending him.
I think somebody is scum? Obviously I'm scum with him because I'm bussing him.
I think somebody is neutral or have largely ignored him? Obviously I'm scum with him trying to avoid connections.

---

Regarding opportunistic voting: I'm not talking about all people who are voting me, I'm talking about players such as EtherealCookie.

ISO #0: Confirming.
ISO #1: RVS.
ISO #2: One sentence regarding player in ISO #3.
ISO #3: Paragraph consisting mostly of things other people have said and voting a player who is in the center of criticism and gaining votes.
ISO #4: Vote on me without justification, just as my wagon is getting hot.

And I'm not saying "without justification I accept", I'm saying literally without justification:

Unvote

Vote: IceGuy

That's not even pretending to scumhunt.

Or BBmolla:

ISO #0: Confirming.
ISO #1/#2: RVS.
ISO #3: Asking Muffin whether he is scum.
ISO #4: Stand-by post.
ISO #5: Accusing people of being scum because of their reactions to the question in ISO #3.
ISO #6: Defense as he got called out for little activity.
ISO #7: Preparing to join the Otolia wagon as it's getting hot.
ISO #8: Vote on me without justification, just as my wagon is getting hot:

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Iceguy

This is a lynch I can support atm.

I need to get a full reread here pretty soon, gonna try to take notes to gather all my thoughts.

Or Bogre (not voting me but has shown similar behavior):
ISO #0: Confirming.
ISO #1: Vote on Baby Spice with one-liner along the lines of "I agree", as the wagon is getting hot.
ISO #2: Same for Otolia.
ISO #3: One-sentence FOSing StefanB.
ISO #4: One-sentence question to Baby Spice.

This is exactly the way scum would discredit his own voters. Calling them out when also calling someone out that is not on the wagon to have a buffer for when people say it is omgus.

It's time for your favorite type of read guys.

EtherealCookie, Iceguy, one is scum. Not both.

No use for this. He is making raw statements to come off as town.

Spoiler: wispersilk

So yeah, Hi, I'm whisper. I've been pretty much AWOL from the site for over a week, which frankly, has had little impact on my posting level in this game. See 2.

10 Things you should know about me:

1/ I am female.
2/ I lurk, especially day 1, and especially in larger games. Why? Because I find scum better when I read pages and pages of a game at once, rather than keeping up with the game in real time, and because I like to sit back and watch interactions between players before getting involved. Deal with it. It's how I play.
3/ I might suggest the town do crazy things, or do crazy things myself. Why? See 1.
4/ Archer is my favourite cartoon, and Sterling Archer is my hero.
5/ I might AtE often, especially when it's crucial that I remain in the game. Why? See 1.
6/ That being said, I have, and will, willingly sacrifice myself if it's in the best interests of the town.
7/ I will tunnel those that I want to tunnel.
8/ I don't often post reads.
9/ I always follow my gut, but I also pay attention to meta.
10/ There is method to my madness.

I'm going to read over everything for a 3rd time, and post all my questions and thoughts tomorrow.

UNVOTE:

Let's sum this up. You are yourself when you:
- lurk
- do crazy things
- use AtE
- tunnel
- don't post reads
- vote someone for gut

You basicly do every thing scum does when you are town? What an incredibly easy way to keep players from voting you.

- CS

[Maxous]

So the argument sageamagoo, is that if IceGuy is scum (which you certainly think he is--your vote is on him, anyways), then I am actually much more likely to be town.

Lol,
nice attempt. =D

So the question then becomes, is this post coming from frustrated town or scum trying to discredit their attacker?

Where does the 'frustated' part come from?

[Magua]

Vote Count 1.10

With 25 alive, it takes 13 to lynch.

IceGuy (8): Maxous, zMuffinMan, Global Warming, TheJakalope, StefanB, EtherealCookie, sageamagoo, BBmolla
Otolia (7): MagnaofIllusion, sorgster, Ghostlin, Oversoul, Dry-fit, Bogre, Baby Spice
Baby Spice (3): Yosarian2, Alabaska J, Wraith
StefanB (2): IceGuy, Otolia
MagnaofIllusion (1): Magister Ludi
David Xanatos (1): PeregrineV
sageamagoo (1): DarthYoshi

Not voting (2): David Xanatos, whispersilk

V/LA: Magister Ludi (10/5), David Xanatos (10/5), Wraith (10/6)

Deadline is October 10th, 2011, at 11:00am EST (site time).
Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2011-10-10 11:00:00)

[StefanB]

Bogre: Since Big C (I am not mad enough to try to write that name out) is neither mafia nor werewolf, and we don't have a cult (rules), the only rule I see for him (not completly bastard) is a SK.
While that flavourwise would be overkill, it doesn't really make sense for a Sk to claim (or be) werewolf miller.
Keep it simple: GW is either a Great Beast (somethink like Elephant or the mistical kind from I think Canada?) or a werewolf (Mafia as strange gamble)
Don't forget the secret societys are at it's core protown (don't know if mafia or werewolfes have starting members in them), so nothink to be afraid of.

On IceGuy: Well I see that he mostly used setupspeculation in the game you mentioned, this is different here.
What is similar is that he used in both an OMGOS-case, both not really getting the sence of OMGOS (not counting that there is serious debate if OMGOS is really a scumtell)
But he plotted a lot more in his scumtopic, so hm.
(Haven't found really a lot about Ghostlin as scum)

Ghostlin:

You meaned scum didn't buddy with their team normally. Scum budying town does happen more often, if I am correct. So what should your find tell us? Sorry I don't quite get it.
Also don't get frustrated, we are in the middle of day 1, reads are not so strong at this time.

But be never so sure what scum would do. I remember (a very good scumplayer XRECKONER) to blandly defend his scumbuddy. It worked because everyone taught he was town.

[Otolia]

Spoiler: My answer to yosarian's questionning

KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!!

Your superior argumentation convinced me to vote for someone I do not want to see by tomorrow.

VOTE: MagnaofIllusion

This post was sarcastic. I know that in MS sarcasm is frowned upon in games, but I like to use it as a rhetorical tool. It wasn't a serious post because it was a direct reaction to MoI's one-liner which was a provocation. The vote is anti-town in the sense that it could be used on someone who I thought was scum, but it should be understand as a way to answer to MoI's witch hunt.

---

1. Refusal to scum-hunt.
2. Active lurking.
3. Voting on policy reasons after explicitly saying he was waiting for a valid wagon

What I really want is to see you shut your annoying mouth. That's what I want. I know you feel entitled to lead the town to a marvelous victory because you are so full of yourself you can't possibly imagine yourself not being right, but you might want to tone it a bit. Just for the sake of your head, I worry about your health.

The second post strongly implies that you think (and/or know?) that MoI is town. And yet you are voting for him. This is obviously deeply disturbing, as well as a possible scum slip (not that scum actually know who is town in a multi-group game, but they still tend to think that way, so the "seeming to know someone is town" scum tell works anyway.)

MoI was primarally attacking you for not voting, which seems a reasoanble reason to attack someone. You may agree or disagree about that being a scum tell, I don't care, but I don't get why you are voting him based on that.

Your excuse that "this is a you are annoying vote" and that it was somehow "extended RVS" or something is just bad, and anti-town. You don't vote someone because they annoy you, you vote them if you think they're scum. If that's not what you were doing, then that throws doubt on what win condition you are playing towards.

I was not implying that MoI is town. It was sarcastic, again. The sentence '

Just for the sake of your head, I worry about your health.

' is a wordplay on a french joke that when someone is arrogant, one's head is growing. I think that MoI's scumhunting should leave him with enough towncred to be considered town for the next few days.

I have a history of being targeted D1 for joking and not being pro-town during the first stages of the game. However it's very difficult to defend against that because you can choose not to trust me.

---

This next part, which basically felt like you were offering to actually play the game but only if he stopped attacking you and voting for you, was just horribly anti-town.

Here is what we are going to do :

You stop screaming 'MORE OTOLIA VOTES PLEASE !!!!!' every post and I'll answer every questions you and anyone ask me.
You unvote me and I'll invest more time into this game.


PS : I fear this might be interpreted as scum trying to negotiate but at this point, it's better than heading in the wall.

All of this combined really looks like you're more worried about not wanting to be attacked then you are worried about trying to find and lynch scum, and that's generally a scum tell.

In this post, I was fishing. I am a straightforward way of scumhunting : pick a target, question him. But I'm not very good at discerning scumtells, thus I have to get another kind of hints and for me it is motivation. I have a good sense for what people could and couldn't do in a given situation, and though it's not enough in itself, I find it useful.

My motivation for doing this 'gambit' was these arrogant statements of him :

So despite never having played with me before (which you acknowledged earlier) you’ve suddenly made the bolded sweeping judgement about me. Lovely. I’ve never said I’m never wrong. Even the best scum-hunters aren’t 100% accurate. That said I’m on a pretty good hot-streak lynching scum (BTTF Mafia, [REDACTED]) as of late so excuse me

if I don’t go second-guessing myself based on AtE.

As for the ‘worry about your health’ I’m not sure whether to take that as a “My scum team is definitely NKing you tonight’ threat or not.

Regardless you should gander and my title and realize it probably doesn’t much matter in a multi-scum game if I ‘lay back’ or not

.

I basically proposed an agreement to MoI. It showed willingness to participate - what I was accused of not doing - but was not acceptable because I wanted him to unvote me (as you nicely pointed out). But instead of engaging discussions and questions me like I think a good scumhunter would, he refused categorically and denied any discussions possible for the town - discussions that might help everyone else. In this situation, if I'm scum then he should be able to make it clear to anyone.

This is possibly a indication that he feared he might not win the rhetorical fight and that shows a weakness which is in direct contradiction with his arrogance of before. It could indicate that he doesn't want to draw too much attention towards himself as town (possibly a PR), that he is in a precarious position where he might not directly benefit from lynching me - regardless of my alignment in this multiscum group (scum or third party), that he didn't felt confident enough too prove the town I am the scum he thinks I am or, the complete opposite, that he is too confident of his reads and is not willing to change his mind.

The last sentence was designed to show a weakness on my side (fear of being lynched) to incite him to react. I disagree with your position on scum being open about their fear of being lynched but it's generally a massive WIFOM nest :/

Bogre, I was waiting for this answer.

@BabySpice : A serious wagon is a wagon designed to lynch someone you think is scum. In order to get your target lynched, you need to work on asking him questions, analyzing his play and cornering his answers trying to provoke a mistake.

Ok, back to strange. That answer strikes me more as a reason to not vote than a reason to vote.

Vote Otolia

I know you are not particularly inclined to making sense all the time, but I feel you should back up a vote with more informations. What in my posts was scummy ? You could say that to my own definition, I wasn't scumhunting - which I already agreed to admit - but in this case, your vote is way too late.

[whispersilk]

Spoiler: wispersilk

So yeah, Hi, I'm whisper. I've been pretty much AWOL from the site for over a week, which frankly, has had little impact on my posting level in this game. See 2.

10 Things you should know about me:

1/ I am female.
2/ I lurk, especially day 1, and especially in larger games. Why? Because I find scum better when I read pages and pages of a game at once, rather than keeping up with the game in real time, and because I like to sit back and watch interactions between players before getting involved. Deal with it. It's how I play.
3/ I might suggest the town do crazy things, or do crazy things myself. Why? See 1.
4/ Archer is my favourite cartoon, and Sterling Archer is my hero.
5/ I might AtE often, especially when it's crucial that I remain in the game. Why? See 1.
6/ That being said, I have, and will, willingly sacrifice myself if it's in the best interests of the town.
7/ I will tunnel those that I want to tunnel.
8/ I don't often post reads.
9/ I always follow my gut, but I also pay attention to meta.
10/ There is method to my madness.

I'm going to read over everything for a 3rd time, and post all my questions and thoughts tomorrow.

UNVOTE:

Let's sum this up. You are yourself when you:
- lurk
- do crazy things
- use AtE
- tunnel
- don't post reads
- vote someone for gut

You basicly do every thing scum does when you are town?

Are you saying that lurking, AtE and tunelling are exclusively scum tells?

What an incredibly easy way to keep players from voting you.

Oh, my play style is not one aimed at keeping people voting for me, it's aimed at catching scum and aiding the town to a win.

[BBmolla]

Sorry for my inactivity.
I'll be rereading Thursday, I just don't have time today or tomorrow because of school for now.
If I don't, I'll request replacement.

[Yosarian2]

Are you saying that lurking, AtE and tunelling are exclusively scum tells?

What an incredibly easy way to keep players from voting you.

Oh, my play style is not one aimed at keeping people voting for me, it's aimed at catching scum and aiding the town to a win.

Lurking is a scum tell, yes.

FYI, I don't care what kind of disclaimer you post beforehand, I lynch people who lurk, and I especially think that's usually a great use of the town's day 1 lynch. I think that's generally the pro-town thing to do, because lurking both hurts the town and makes it easier for scum to hide. The fact that you're trying to set up a pre-emptive excuse to make it ok for you to lurk later actually makes you look worse if you do end up lurking, not better.

[whispersilk]

@sorgster:

17 posts in the game. I'd like to see more from you because:

I haven't been paying much attention to this game in truth. I did a quick iso on magister ludi and his posts have rarely had little other than fluffiness from what I've seen.

Vote Magister Ludi

At the point you made this post, you had 5 posts in the game. One was your "confirm" post, two was your "RVS" post, three, four and five were nothing more than useless fluff. So of your actual game posts, you were hitting a 100% fluff rate. By your own admission in your very next post, you classified only 3 of Ludi's first 34 posts as being actual fluff. That's what, a less than 10% fluff rate?

Your two posts after you ISO'd him reiterated your opinion. Then after two questions from other players regarding your Ludi vote, you said this:

After doing that iso though, even with a few fluffy posts he seemed less and less like scum.

Why didn't you give your thoughts on, or ISO anyone else?

In your post 11, you unvoted Ludi and voted for Otolia. You didn't give any reason for this vote. Could you please give one now? Or were you just sheeping someone else's case against him?

Your next three posts are questioning why Otolia hadn't defended himself. Was he supposed to be defending a case that you had made against him, or were you just kindly pointing out how he hadn't defended himself against

someone else's

case?

[sageamagoo]

So the argument sageamagoo, is that if IceGuy is scum (which you certainly think he is--your vote is on him, anyways), then I am actually much more likely to be town.

Lol,
nice attempt. =D

Yay, someone who finally agrees with me!

So the question then becomes, is this post coming from frustrated town or scum trying to discredit their attacker?

Where does the 'frustated' part come from?

The frustratedpart comes from scum thinking you're scum. And now I may be a target in days to come (night or day), although I really should't be.

[whispersilk]

Are you saying that lurking, AtE and tunelling are exclusively scum tells?

What an incredibly easy way to keep players from voting you.

Oh, my play style is not one aimed at keeping people voting for me, it's aimed at catching scum and aiding the town to a win.

Lurking is a scum tell, yes.

I asked if you thought lurking was

exclusive

to scum. Because I don't.

FYI, I don't care what kind of disclaimer you post beforehand, I lynch people who lurk, and I especially think that's usually a great use of the town's day 1 lynch. I think that's generally the pro-town thing to do, because lurking both hurts the town and makes it easier for scum to hide. The fact that you're trying to set up a pre-emptive excuse to make it ok for you to lurk later actually makes you look worse if you do end up lurking, not better.

I'm not trying to set up anything. Introducing myself in that way was meant to point out that I lurk on day 1 in

all

my games, and that if it's indicative of anything in this case, it would be of me being town. I don't want to get lynched for playing the way I feel most comfortable playing. You're welcome to check all 5 of my completed games to confirm my meta, because in all 5 I was town, and in all 5 I lurked hard on day 1. Once I've gotten over my lurking phase, I generally participate as much, if not more than most other players.

Generally, I think lurking is a null tell, and lynching someone on day 1 just because they lurk is daft, but not as daft as my theory of lynching the towniest player on day 1.

[Yosarian2]

Are you saying that lurking, AtE and tunelling are exclusively scum tells?

What an incredibly easy way to keep players from voting you.

Oh, my play style is not one aimed at keeping people voting for me, it's aimed at catching scum and aiding the town to a win.

Lurking is a scum tell, yes.

I asked if you thought lurking was

exclusive

to scum. Because I don't.

No scum tells are "exclusive to scum". There is really no possible move that is so scummy and anti-town that no pro-town person has ever done it in the history of the site. If that was the standard you were using, you'd never be able to vote for anyone.

That being said, I do think it is a scum tell. "Scum tell" just means "something scum are more likely to do then town".

I'm not trying to set up anything. Introducing myself in that way was meant to point out that I lurk on day 1 in

all

my games, and that if it's indicative of anything in this case, it would be of me being town. I don't want to get lynched for playing the way I feel most comfortable playing. You're welcome to check all 5 of my completed games to confirm my meta, because in all 5 I was town, and in all 5 I lurked hard on day 1. Once I've gotten over my lurking phase, I generally participate as much, if not more than most other players.

Setting up a meta defense for lurking isn't a great thing to do either.

Ideally, what I'd like to see is you, well, not lurking. I'm sorry if that's hard for you to do, but if you are in the habit of always lurking day 1 when town, then that's an anti-town habit to be in, and it's one you should be trying change. Every person that lurks slows the game down and makes it harder to find scum.

[whispersilk]

It's not that

not

lurking is hard for me to do, it's that I play better and pick up on a lot more if I lurk on day and just watch everyone interact. I hope you can see the difference.

[sorgster]

@sorgster:

17 posts in the game. I'd like to see more from you because:

I haven't been paying much attention to this game in truth. I did a quick iso on magister ludi and his posts have rarely had little other than fluffiness from what I've seen.

Vote Magister Ludi

At the point you made this post, you had 5 posts in the game. One was your "confirm" post, two was your "RVS" post, three, four and five were nothing more than useless fluff. So of your actual game posts, you were hitting a 100% fluff rate. By your own admission in your very next post, you classified only 3 of Ludi's first 34 posts as being actual fluff. That's what, a less than 10% fluff rate?

Your two posts after you ISO'd him reiterated your opinion. Then after two questions from other players regarding your Ludi vote, you said this:

After doing that iso though, even with a few fluffy posts he seemed less and less like scum.

Why didn't you give your thoughts on, or ISO anyone else?

In your post 11, you unvoted Ludi and voted for Otolia. You didn't give any reason for this vote. Could you please give one now? Or were you just sheeping someone else's case against him?

Your next three posts are questioning why Otolia hadn't defended himself. Was he supposed to be defending a case that you had made against him, or were you just kindly pointing out how he hadn't defended himself against

someone else's

case?

I was pointing out he hadn't defended against someone else's case. That case seemed pretty solid to me and it seems very very likely otolia is scum.

[Otolia]

I was pointing out he hadn't defended against someone else's case. That case seemed pretty solid to me and it seems very very likely otolia is scum.

I am not lurking anymore and my play is backed up by arguments. You say I am still town and say the case - that someone else built for you - is solid. I disagree strongly and find your conviction not strong enough.

So please answer the following questions

with arguments

:

• What about the recent explanations of mine ? Did you read them ?
  
• Did you found me convincingly town ?
  
• What do you still found scummy and what isn't anymore ?
  
• Do you feel my own play is as solid as the case that was made ?

[Yosarian2]

It's not that

not

lurking is hard for me to do, it's that I play better and pick up on a lot more if I lurk on day and just watch everyone interact. I hope you can see the difference.

Each person who "lurks" and "just watches everyone interact" makes every pro-town player play worse, because there is at least one person who they can not possibly get a read on. It is also an incredibly easy thing for scum to hide behind, if town lets people get away with lurking. Ergo, town should never let anyone get away with lurking.

It is possible to do both. Play the game as it happens, and also go back and read large parts the game objectively and analytically from time to time.

[sorgster]

1. I did not say you are town.
2. I read your recent explanation. I can understand the first one being sarcasm. The second one did not seem like sarcasm though. The negotiations, as you call them, seemed to be as scum trying to negotiate. You wanted him to unvote you and promised to be more active which wasn't the reason you were being voted. You also called his attacks childish which seemed to be trying to reduce the attacks even though his attacks were solid.

[Maxous]

I really don't think Otolia should be the lynch.

@Sageamagoo: What is wrong with you being targeted during the night period?

That whole disclaimer thing from WhisperSilk is meh, whatever.
Though it would be nice to have some comment on the 3 main wagons.