Mini 1250: That 70s Smalltown - GAME OVER

[Seacore]

Confirm

[Seacore]

Or Fez

Or Leo

Or Jackie

Or Laurie

There are a lot of dumb characters.

I really really want to be Red or Fez, just for the in character posts I'll be making.

[Seacore]

Yeah, but all of their basic faults allow the inability to understand a social convention such as the rules of this game. I agree Kelso is the 'idiot', but I can think of dialogue for each of them to not understand the open nature of this game.

[Seacore]

I'm an RP junkie, and I've had to give up my weekly games to stay home with the baby. While I'm loving the daddy-daughter time, I'm afraid you guys are going to feel the brunt of my RP withdrawal.

[Seacore]

Did you PM Farside?

[Seacore]

Because I'll be v/la for a while. I'll

IF Fez is available

Pick Fez

IF NOT

Pick Leo

Iceguy, can you PM iamausername instead of me when you choose.

[Seacore]

Whoa man, I don't think that's how you play 'pin the tail on the donkey'!

I think this kind of thing is a chick thing, like a chick doing a chick kind of thing.

Vote Kondi

[Seacore]

Hey, Red, man, Red. I served in WW2, you and I, we gotta stick together.

But I agree with Midge, man, Hyde's sneaky. Sometimes, I can't even see him! Like when I'm at home and he's not there.

Unvote. Vote kdowns

[Seacore]

It's not even about outguessing the mod.

It's basically saying this:

We know every PR in the game AND who has them.
Day 1 is nearly always a random lynch, since nobody has good evidence yet, unless somebody wants to claim scum?

So a good place to start with a lynch is "what role can we remove that will hurt scum the most to lose, and hurt town the least to move?" And the answer is it's the Hyde role.

[Seacore]

It's not even about outguessing the mod.

It's basically saying this:

We know every PR in the game AND who has them.
Day 1 is nearly always a random lynch, since nobody has good evidence yet, unless somebody wants to claim scum?

So a good place to start with a lynch is "what role can we remove that will hurt scum the most to lose, and hurt town the least to

lose

?" And the answer is it's the Hyde role.

Fixed. Should not be discussing moving office while typing.

[Seacore]

No, I'm not proposing that we mislynch you.
I'm saying that I agree Iam, that rather than start with a usual round of RVS, we should begin our discussion on who the best case mislynch would be. And it's you.

I don't like your defence by the way. First of all, how are you going to stop us if a bunch of us agree to lynch you?

Secondly, assuming you are town, there are 8 other people that your mislynch calculation applies to. Yes, if we mislynch somebody and both NKs go through, of course we go from 12 to 9. 9 players is still 5 v 3 v 1 by the way, assuming no cross kills.
I get a taste of scum saying "I can't believe I'm getting run up for this! I haven't even done anything scummy yet!"

If you really want to prevent your lynch, convince us that you're town by scum hunting, not just saying "hey, don't lynch me for that reason"

[Seacore]

I think there's a little confusion so I will give you some benefit of the doubt.

I'm saying you should be an early and significant wagon toDay. This is because we have the least to lose if you are the mislynch compared to any other mislynch and the most to gain if you are a scum lynch compared to any other scum lynch.

I am not saying you should be the inevitable lynch. But whereas most games are forced to start with some random wagons or some contrived "scum tells" to get the ball rolling, the benefit/risk analysis of lynching your role gives us a good start to this game.

[Seacore]

But to follow up. Do you believe that pushing your lynch on the basis of your role is a scummy action?

Why would scum want this? Which of us currently voting for you is scummier due to our case/vote?

[Seacore]

What do you think is a reasonable basis to lynch somebody on Day 1?

[Seacore]

So
A) Major Scum Yell
B) Seems legitimately scummy
C) Has seemed fairly scummy all day

Okay, so A and B seem much the same and require a fairly incompetent scum team
C is out of reach

So since it's not appropriate to talk about lynching anybody, because there isn't a good reason to do so, anybody seen any good TV lately?

[Seacore]

Really? Oh dear.

Let me try and explain it a bit slower.
I was discussing what I thought was, so far, the best lynch choice of today.
You told me that I didn't have a good enough reason for deciding it was the best lynch choice of today.
So I asked you what your criteria were
You responded with three criteria that are currently inaccessible. Two of them require the scum team to cock up, which they haven't done yet, and the third requires we wait until the end of the day and evaluate.

I then, rather flippantly, tried to point out that we can't really discuss anything in game.

You seem to be okay with RVS, randomly discussing who to lynch. Each of these random targets has 8/12 chance of being a mislynch. The consequences of some of these mislynches are bad for town. If I die, we lose a confirmed townie. If Kelso dies, we lose a JK. etc.
Conversley, there are 4 scum lynches out there. Some of them have really minor side effects for the scum, like losing Bob, since we as town would probably end up dictating (to a certain degree) where the inventions go anyway.

But you seem okay with that.

You aren't okay with discussing somebody who has the same chance as anybody else at being scum or being a mislynch under the context of minimising the risk and maximising the benefit. An invisible townie is not helpful. An invisible scum is terribad for the rest of us.

[Seacore]

The plan is to JK me every night until then. I have no active abilities, so JK doesn't hurt me.
Hell, even if the JK just threatens to target me every night, the scum won't waste their shots.

I'm including 3 mafia and 1 SK in my 4 scum.

[Seacore]

More information is always good.
On Day 3 Town-Seacore will provide a confirmed townie to the town.
On Day 3 Scum-Seacore will be forced to provide a name to the town.
Subsequently, if Town-Seacore dies, that townie is confirmed. If scum-seacore dies, that townie is not confirmed (but not necessarily scum)

Lynching Town-Seacore before this happens - major benefit to scum and major loss to town
Lynching Scum-Seaore before this happens - small gain to town (due to elimination of noise) small loss to scum (they get to work out that somebody isn't the SK)

The point, kdowns, is that everybody is potentially scum. At this point the only information we have, until reads get developed and flips happen, is what roles are out there.

But I'm done discussing this. Your defence so far is not convincing. It's still "no don't vote me for that! Somebody else could be scum".
Start putting down some reads or just go quiet until you have some reads to put down. Either way, trying to convince me that you aren't a good lynch because you might be a mislynch is ineffective

[Seacore]

Farside, information is generated by discussing lynches. I'd rather discuss then best lynch (so far) of the day than any other lynch.

How's your scum hunting going? I see some great substance in your posts, I can see how your method is much better than mine.

[Seacore]

Policy lynches on roles, not always bad things.

And my discussion around the policy lynch, is indeed generating information. I think I may have actually found scum there based on the reaction, although it's not firm.

Seems my actions in generating discussion and information are doing a whole lot more than your 'waiting' and telling people to scum hunt. Good to know. Thanks for the advice.

[Seacore]

So, you think better information on people's intentions is gained when you say

"Here's something that I'm not serious about, discuss"?

Or

"Here is a really good idea that we should totally do"?

If it comes down to the deadline, and we have nobody better, I'll be absolutely for lynching kdowns. Both based on the 'policy lynch' component and on his reaction.
Therefore, at the moment, to me, he's todays best lynch.
But yes, I'm watching for his defence, I'm watching for other people commenting on the case, either for or against, I'm also watching people who aren't contributing.
It's early days, I haven't finished scum hunting. In fact, the whole purpose of the conversation is to start scum hunting.

[Seacore]

I have no idea what CS is saying, can somebody translate?

[Seacore]

Some reading to do after sleeping it seems. I'll get to it after some work.

[Seacore]

Pushing a Lynch on that basis is more of a Null-Scum action.

I think Iam is possibly the more scummier one for now due to the fact that he actually brought this up as a case when the RVS had pretty much started.

I'd say Seacore on the basis of pushing for a Policy lynch.

At want point did this change? Was it due to an iam post or one of mine?

There's a lot to read, and I don't have the time really. Plus from my skimming there's a lot that doesn't add much.

For those who are attacking me for trying to policy lynch instead of scum hunting, I'll say again that I was arguing for starting our discussion focussed on kdown and going from there, rather than just having random votes and wasting time. Basically, i was agreeing with Iam. And I think most people have to admit it's been fairly successful in starting a real conversation.

I haven't loved kdown's responses to the pressure, but I'm willing to see newb in it as much as scum. I still get an inkling of him being upset in a "damn, I hadn't even scumslipped yet" kind of way.

But lets move on.

One post has concerned me more than most

Hey, Red, man, Red. I served in WW2, you and I, we gotta stick together.

But I agree with Midge, man, Hyde's sneaky. Sometimes, I can't even see him! Like when I'm at home and he's not there.

Unvote. Vote kdowns

How convenient, when you happen to be Leo. And that you were supportive of this 5 minutes after iam and didn't even think of this yourself before.

What does me being Leo have to do with anything? And yes, I hadn't really thought about it myself, I was actually too busy having fun with the idea of talking in character and then when Iam posted I thought "yes, that's a really good idea".

This seems like a mud throwing attack, saying as much about me as possible in the post and hoping it just kind of paints me as bad. If it wasn't me, I'd actually suspect cons and my slot of being buddies, because it feels like that kind of vague FOS that is often used that way.

I'm not liking MoI and Cons either. MoI finds me scummy for my pushing of the policy lynch, fine. But then he says to Cons

@Conspiracy

– so in 121 you properly call out Seacore on his scummy play and then vote Quilford for making what you call a joke? Explain how what he did was scummy at all.

I draw attention to the "properly". Cons did nothing of the kind. His two points against me were the one mentioned above about me being Leo and not coming up with it on my own, and Cons not understanding that I was jokingly giving up scum hunting based on kdown's requirements.

So, just because Cons targeted somebody that MoI found scummy (ie Me) MoI has declared it "properly calling me out". It was nothing of the kind, there was nothing of substance in Cons attack. MoI is a better player than this, he knows that just because somebody agrees with you, it doesn't make them right. He also knows that scum will often try and come up with extra reasons instead of just sheeping, to make it look like they're contributing.

MoI doesn't attack him for this, instead he attacks him for where he put his vote. This looks a little like coaching to me.

That's enough of a wall for now

Unvote. Vote ConS

FOS MoI

[Seacore]

I still stand by that, all other things being equal, lynching kondi based on role is not a terrible idea, but yes it was mostly to generate conversation. I'm not in the habit of announcing exactly why I'm making cases or pushing stances, it tends to detract from them. If I'm attacking somebody to get information out of them, I'm going to say that I find them really scummy, not that I think they may be scummy and I just want to see how they react.

Anyway, I'm going to be on a bit of V/LA it's the weekend and inlaws are visiting. Plus, there's a baby I haven't seen much of all week. But I'll be checking in now and then.

[Seacore]

sorry, so many letters in common and me distracted are not a good combination. Yes I meant you.

[Seacore]

I've been keeping track. I'm happy with the general suspicion of Cons and MoI.

I'd prefer to lynch them in that order. On the chance that we're wrong about MoI, giving him the vengeful kill on Day 2 will help it be more accurate, IMO

[Seacore]

Prior to the back and forth I was considering Ice Guy as the third scum with MoI and ConS. I'm still not convinced he isn't, but if he is, seriously good work there from MoI and Iceguy, for that argument to be fake would require a decent amount of dedication.

That being said, I'd still rather a ConS lynch today. But will support an MoI lynch. I really don't think my ability is that powerful that I have to stay off the wagon.

Also, for the record I do not support being JK'd N1 and N2.
I support "probably" being JK'd N1 and N2. I'd like there to be a little randomness in it. This way, scum don't know for sure that the JK is busy, and also might try to risk it and kill me. I understand that runs the risk of a scum JK 'randomly' not protecting me and then me dying. But so be it, my role is not that strong.

[Seacore]

Awesome contribution, I'm so glad we decided not to policy lynch your role.

[Seacore]

Hiplop, you're stretching.

MoI - please find a game that is counter evidence to my claims
hiplop - that's not possible
MoI - that's not good for your argument
hiplop - when I said it's not possible, I meant I couldn't be bothered
MoI - that's still not good for your argument

I mean, I think MoI is scum too, but I think you're stretching.

In other news, I'm still here, waiting for the lurkers and the flakers to post.

[Seacore]

All I'm saying is, I think MoI is scummy, but his reactions to you at the moment don't look scummy, so I think you've probably got goggles on and should take a step back.

[Seacore]

I didn't love kdown's hammer. I was waiting for the lurkers and flakers to be replaced or return, and then I was going to argue for ConS's lynch. That being said, MoI's lynch got us a scum kill, good job MoI. I would have been arguing for MoI's lynch today so again, no biggy.
But still, I don't like the one line hammer.

That being said, anybody have anything to report before we get started?

[Seacore]

Quil, how and/or why did you decide not to jk me?

[Seacore]

Did you select mb53 because to protect him or to block him? Why do you think he was the killer rather than the defended target?

[Seacore]

I'm not sure scum can submit kills on behalf of other players, since they need to be PM'd.

Why am I scum again?

[Seacore]

Nil

[Seacore]

@Mod - I'm not voting for anybody at the moment.

I don't like IceGuy's contributions today. It looks like 'busywork' to me. Particularly when, 1) He ignored Quil's immediate claim of Night Action and 2)He demanded responses from those of us who have no action.

kdowns - You think I'm likely scummy because I championed Iam's early push to lynch you based on your role? Please, I know I haven't been scum often (Once ever) but two out of three scum making noise about a policy lynch would just really be bad play. Also, you think I'm scummy because I asked why I wasn't JK'd? Why? It was discussed yesterday that I was the best JK candidate. I asked to be a 'likely' JK target, but not definitely, to keep the scum guessing. I like to ask about people's reasons and motivations as it helps me to build cases.

Jason - For the last time. I was never saying we should definitely lynch kdowns based on the role. I was saying that this D1 need not start with RVS since we already have a person who is the best option to discuss. All things being equal, kdowns was the best lynch of yesterday, but all things did not stay equal for long. I didn't like kdowns responses, and I still don't. But ConS and MoI quickly became scummier to me. Please quote where I have said that no informed lynch can occur on D1. Because you are blatantly misrepping me.

Also, I never voted for MoI, so again, if you're making a page by page case on me, why include things that didn't happen?

Finally, lynching me today is dumb. Particularly if you have other suspects. Sure, if I'm the only possible lynch today, go for it, but if you wait for tomorrow, you'll have a confirmed town to replace me when I flip town.

Finally, Kondi, why did you copycat me? I was likely to either a) be killed, or b) be JK'd. I was a terrible target!

I'm going to get a little bit of work done and then come back to read and vote somebody.

[Seacore]

So you read that and then ignore the context?

The next bit after the bold reads "So a good place to start is". Not "So the only option is to lynch Hyde" What I was saying and what I said several times is that we should start with that discussion.

Also, did I get proved wrong? No, MoI got lynched and he was town. Now we have better evidence, but D1, as usual, was all gut reaction and vibe. Information was gained FROM it, but it was hardly the most informed lynch.

Any response to other misreps you've made of me?

[Seacore]

Magua

Awesome starting post, glad to have you in the game, and will totally consider following you on the Quil lynch for much the same reasons as you stated.

But where the hell is my analysis off?

[Seacore]

Okay, I can kinda see it on the Cons/MoI thing, except that I found Cons scummier and wanted MoI lynched day to so that if I was wrong, he would have had a more informed vengeful (turns out I didn't need to worry about that, MoI is great). That being said, if we had lynched Cons yesterday, I would have been first person the MoI wagon today (baring useful information from elsewhere)

On the kdown from, well I actually find his reaction scummy. You've definitely persuaded me part of the way out of that with your post, but I still don't like so much of what he's done. His reasons for me are terrible and seem opportunistic. I also wasn't using the policy lynch so much as a reaction guage as just a conversation starter, and it got pretty derailed early, which was fine because real conversation had started. I then will admit I kinda just faded out for a while, waiting for the lurkers and flakers, popping back in to clarify points now and then.

[Seacore]

Again you refuse to address the other points of misrep.

You also refuse to discuss Magua's case on Quil. Instead you use some of his poorer points on you as a reason why everything he's said should be thrown away.

FOS: Jason

Vote: Quil

I think Magua has found our two remaining scum.

[Seacore]

So nothing about Quil's strange assumptions regarding mb53?

No, Magua's case on Quil is gone now, because I've never mentioned Quil and yet agree with Magua, and because Magua thinks you're scummy too.

Also, I don't voice all of my concerns all the time. I speak up when I need more information or when I'm pushing for a lynch.

[Seacore]

Jason, read closely. Kondi was killed with Magua. Laurie was found in bed with Donna.

In other news, Farside is our confirmed townie.

I'm at my parents' today, later tonight I'll post more.

[Seacore]

Lol. Quick wagon = scum? That's different from being the quick hammer twice? I think kdowns is the SK.
He's hammered whenever he has the opportunity and otherwise only turns up to defend himself. That is classic Lurker 3rd party behaviour.

I'll vote him soon, just waiting for others to weigh in.

[Seacore]

Go on then, prove it.

The fact that you didn't realise you were the hammerer only highlights how likely you are to be the SK. The SK doesn't need to pay attention to the game, since everybody is the enemy.
Hell, have a look at toDay's posts. Jason posts with theories and reads, I post with results and accusation, you post to say you aren't scum and that if someone lynches you, they are scum. Your only interest is to stay alive. That's not town, that's not even Mafia always, but it IS 3rd pary behaviour.

[Seacore]

Sigh, stupid ConS with his suddenly reasonable arguments. I still declare that I'm suspicious!

I agree that kdowns is unlikely 3rd scum. But at this point, scum and SK are exactly the same and we should hunt them both with equal fervour. This is what I think happened, and why I said that I think SK would hammer.

The first time he hammered, he aknowledged it with a "sorry". Showing that he knew it was the hammer, but he's never sufficiently explained why he hammered.
The second time he hammered, he didn't aknowledge it. I think he either didn't realise it was a hammer (because he wasn't playing attention and just wanted to throw down a vote) or knew it was a hammer, but hoped he could claim it was an accident (or, if he's really terribad, he just did it without a reason because he couldn't think of one).

Then he claimed he didn't realise he hammered, he didn't even realise it was his vote after the hammer! He's not even reading back over the last day to see who was responsible for the lynch of another town. This shows complete disinterest in the game, except that he's not flaking, he's always around and quick to jump in the moment his name is mentioned or even hinted at.

He's totally the SK and thus needs to die today.

Then there's the change from "I have proof that I'm not the SK" to "You'll never believe me, so I can't be bothered." Two things, 1) I can't kill you on my own, I need other people. Persuade them that you're town and I can't do anything. 2) What changed in 1.5 hours and one post from me that destroyed your "proof".

Vote kdowns

Also, no lynching is dumb.

P-EDIT: Ninja'd by the last ConS post. Sorry, what IceGuy case on you?

[Seacore]

I really don't understand your scum case on me at all Jason.

Are you saying that because I'm scum, and now the only surviving member of my team, I picked farside since she's the most obv-town and would be considered town by most people anyway?

A couple of things wrong with that. That doesn't prove I'm scum at all, farside, me and 1 other person is town. I couldn't get myself so I had a 50% chance of getting farside!
Secondly, I didn't read farside as obv-town. I was actually worried that she was the SK, since she's taking a slightly lower profile here than usual. But she's not, she's town, so that's cool.

@ farside, I can think of a couple of reasons why you took JK. Most of them are great! It's what I would have chosen too.

[Seacore]

Let's review my game so far shall we?

I agree with Iam right off the bat and push his policy lynch case harder than he does.
I then agree with Magua's assessment of the game and vote based on one of his cases.

These are the two players I've agreed with and buddied up to more than anybody else in the game.

And I've done this with my two scum buddies?

Please. All this shows is that I'm a terrible town player and easily manipulated, but I'm not so bad as scum as to openly team up with my buddies!

Also, how does any of your case that you just posted link with your thoughts on me declaring Farside as town, I still don't understand that part of your case.

[Seacore]

Ah, so it's pointless fluff that doesn't apply to this game in it's current status. Thank you for clarifying.

[Seacore]

I have.

So far in this game there have been two points against me.

My pushing of the D1 policy lynch.
My agreement with Magua of Quil being a good lynch.

In both of these cases I was agreeing with scum.
In the 2nd I was also lynching town.

If anything, this makes me LESS likely to be scum. I would have to be one of the worst scum players on the site to align myself with not one but both of my scum buddies.

I'm not one of the worst scum players on the site, I'm actually a pretty good one.

By calling me scum, you are suggesting that my first action this game was to make a lot of noise arguing for the consideration of a policy lynch based of role that a fellow scum buddy was also arguing for. This would have had the effect of placing a spotlight on not one but two scum. That would have been a terrible plan.

Then, on day 2, immediately after the 3rd scum makes a case and places a vote, I follow.

That is terrible terrible scum play, and I'm not that terrible.

[Seacore]

I'm not sure we should play that game today.
I'm happy to be over-ruled in that, but we all agree kdowns is the SK, should we really hand the scum a complete blueprint of how tomorrow will go down, giving him the maximum information for chosing an NK?

Or should we hold off and discuss it tomorrow, after we lynch kdowns.

I've actually written a whole post about which of ConS and jason I think is scum, but then I deleted it before posting it because I'm not sure it's a good idea.

And I'll use WIFOM to show the flipside of a case that is based on my relationships with scum.
jason "look at all these links to confirmed scum, you must be scum too"
Seacore "Or maybe I wouldn't do that as scum, therefore your case doesn't hold water"

How me something scummy I've done that doesn't relate to me agreeing with scum. Then I'll start a defence that isn't WIFOM.

[Seacore]

Have a look at kdowns' activity. He managed to find time to post in 3 games and not ours, despite ours "being in Mylo". Can we lynch him already?

[Seacore]

Give us a single reason to think you aren't the SK

[Seacore]

Have you read any of my posts? Because I've explained it several times now.

There are 5 players left. If you are town, who are the two scum?

[Seacore]

unvote

kdowns, no lynching is a bad idea.
With 3 town left, the two scum will try and hit town, because it gives them the best chance in the long run.
If we lynch, worst case scenario is that there will be 2 town left. In which case the scum need to be trying to hit each other with their NKs.
Best case scenario, we hit scum with our lynch, and there's 3/1, meaning 2/1 and lylo tomorrow.
All this assumes that Farside is not successful with her jailing, but I like to plan for the worse.

The point is, with two scum factions left, no lynching is a terrible idea. We can't let the two scum dictate what happens.

But you know that, you're scum.

So, please defend your no lynch policy or start discussing with us who we're going to kill.

[Seacore]

While we're waiting for kdowns to actually contribute to this game instead of active lurking (hah!) and for ConS to show up and weigh in, I'll respond to this:

And I'll use WIFOM to show the flipside of a case that is based on my relationships with scum.

jason "look at all these links to confirmed scum, you must be scum too"

Seacore "Or maybe I wouldn't do that as scum, therefore your case doesn't hold water"

.

That is how you play the game though, you look for links between players. More later, don't have much time right now to post.

I agree that this is how the game should be played. Looking for links between flipped players is good.
My disagreement comes from the nature of that relationship and how you are interpreting it.

You're saying "Look how much he interacts with Magua, they do the same thing really quickly and it resulted in the lynch of a townie"
My response is "I don't find that to be evidence of scum." If Magua was town, then I could see evidence of me being scummy, since I leapt on the opportunity to lynch the JK the moment one was available. But to have all the remaining scum pile on a mislynch seems unlikely to me.

And that's largely the same argument that has been used on me for the Iam policy lynch thing as well. For me to be scum I would have had to blatantly ally myself with both of my scum buddies in a way that involved pushing to get a townie lynched. It's just too risky.

But I could accept that if there was anything else, anything at all, that suggested that I was scum. But there's nadda, I've been playing a town game.
A crap town game because I didn't have a scum read on Iam or Magua, but a town game none-the-less.

That being said, I'm going to feel vindicated when we get an SK flip on kdowns because I said his reaction felt scummy the moment I pushed the policy lynch.

[Seacore]

Yeah, I'm really oscillating between jason and CS as to which is the scum. I won't go into it too much because I think that's best left til tomorrow.

Has CS been active on the site (he types, knowing he'll go and check it in a moment)

[Seacore]

He hasn't posted anywhere since he posted here and it appears he's in at least one other game, so that's less a case of hiding (although it might still be)

[Seacore]

I agree with your concerns.
I'd rather us not discuss it unless we've decided to not lynch kdowns today.

At the moment it seems that you, CS and I are all pro kdowns's lynch and jason thinks he's probably the SK but has a bigger scum reading of me.
That's pretty damn good consensus.

If we decide it's not as foregone as that, then we can start discussing the rest, but I don't want help either scum-jason or scum-CS in choosing who is a better kill target.

Also! I just thought of something. Help me think it through, because I may be missing something, but I think it would be a good idea to claim your target tonight.
If kdowns flips SK, there will only be one kill action tonight.
So, you declare who you're going to JK. If you die, that person is confirmed town, reducing our mylo to one of two, not one of three.
If kdowns doesn't flip SK, then you should feel free to disregard your claimed target, there will be two night kills and we can only hope that CS and jason target each other.

[Seacore]

kdowns, I'm not calling you out for lurking for not being around today

I'm calling you out for lurking for not contributing all game except to pop in and say "hey, I'm not scum"

[Seacore]

And Farside, you're right, I hadn't factored in jason's kill delay ability.

The other two things weren't that big a deal because 2) you need to choose somebody sometime, and 3) if they don't send in a kill then yay, we get an extra person.

But the kill delay screws it. Plan abandoned.

[Seacore]

Farside is definitely not scum, not just from my perspective (because I have her as modconfirmed town), but from your perspectives too.
Town Seacore would obviously tell the truth and Scum-Seacore or SK-Seacore would not lie at this point in the game.
If I lied, I run the risk of declaring scum-Farside or SK-farside (whichever one I'm not) town.
scum/SK farside then knows that I'm the other one.
Scum, at this point in the game, need to hide from each other so they don't get cross killed.

So regardless of my alignment, Farside is town, 100%.

So, I think that brings us to lynching kdowns. Can we do it please, farside?

[Seacore]

Totally. You've outted me as scum. Clever you.

What slip?

[Seacore]

ConS, I don't understand your thinking at all.

At this stage of the game, more than at any other, the SK and the remaining mafia must be hunting each other.
Therefore, if I was one of the scum, there's no way I'd identify myself to (potentially) the other scum by lying. Scum-farside would know I was seacore-scum, but seacore-scum wouldn't have any extra information about scum-farside, because seacore-scum would only know that somebody else was town (from his leo power) not what farside's alignment was.
So it would be a terrible idea for me to lie regardless of my alignment.

You seem to be hung up on the motivation for the SK to kill hiplop but not on the motivation of seacore-scum to lie.

Speaking of which

How do you know that hiplop was killed by the SK? I don't know that. I just know hiplop died N1. Only the scum (on either side) would know who killed hiplop.
Which one are you?

[Seacore]

vote:kdowns

Farside, what do you think of CS's potential slip that I noted above?

[Seacore]

Sigh.

So the fact that I voted for you already and removed my vote at Farside's (confirmed town) request, then asked her if we could start voting for you again after it was clear that 3/5 of the players find you scummy? No, I'm opportunistic, I saw a vote and then jumped.

Also, I can't be the only scum in the game, there's got to be another, who is it?

[Seacore]

Sorry. I do agree that the tone I've been taking with kdowns has not been positive. I just can't stand players like this. He acts scummy (in my opinion) all game and then washes his hands of it and declares that if we lose it's our fault, not his. It's frustrating. When he put a one liner down declaring that I'd scumslipped, without an explanation of how it was a scum slip (or any other contribution), then it brought out my snappy side. It's all AtE and I should be ignoring it, but it annoys me.

As for ConS's "Scumslip". Yes, I could see a bunch of reasons he could have given for it that were acceptable, but I like to ask the questions anyway to see if it gets a reaction. As it is, he definitely sounded certain that it must have been an SK kill, whereas I've just been working with that assumption. IMO it's also possible that mb53 was the SK's target and the scum kill did go through. However, I didn't factor in mb53 not having a night action, so you're right, it's far more likely to be as ConS has assumed. But in short, it seemed certain and I took a bite.

Also, sorry, I think it's the terminology. I often refer to SK as scum (because they are trying to stab my face off while I sleep). So there's mafia and SKs and they collectively make up the scum. So when I say there's two scum left, I mean there's 1 SK and 1 mafia. But as I've said before, they're basically identical at this point, although tracking them through their motivations is distinct. Which is why I'm so sure that kdowns is our SK.

[Seacore]

jason wasn't a jk, quil was.
jason is the kill delayer.


also, kdowns, can you maybe actually put down some reasons for that?

[Seacore]

so you're voting for somebody who you don't find scummy?

Has somebody explained this game to you?

[Seacore]

ah, totally my bad. I misread sees as seems

as in "he seems to me to be the least scummy"

That's not bad, except that it would be in the mafia's interest to get the SK lynched at this point. So jason ignoring your scuminess isn't motivated by keeping scum alive.

Also, is this an admission of guilt?

[Seacore]

If Jason is the last mafia, what do you think his motivation is for trying to keep you alive?

[Seacore]

Exactly, so he clearly has motivation for trying to keep you alive. Or at least motivation for trying to appear as if he's keeping you alive.

So, is it scum motivation or town motivation?

He will claim it is town motivation, he doesn't believe you are scummy (he thinks ConS and I are) so he doesn't want a mislynch.

However, you've voted for him, so you must believe he has a scum motivation for doing so?

Do you think he is scum trying to keep alive you (a townie) so that he can earn some gratitude and have your help in lynching me and Cons?
Or do you think he is scum trying to keep alive you (the SK) so that you can help him kill people tonight and he can lynch you tomorrow?
Or do you think he is scum who wants you dead, but wants other people to do the dirty work so he can look 'confused' and 'conflicted'?

Or something else?

[Seacore]

Keep in mind that he doesn't know your alignment. But fair enough, you think he's scum trying to buddy to you.

That could have been said in your vote post, just FYI.

[Seacore]

I just woke up, but I see no problem with the plan. Assuming kdowns is SK, we've won this.

[Seacore]

Okay, I've thought more about it.

The kdowns SK plan is stong, and Jason should follow that plan regardless of where it came from. It will win the game for us

The kdowns Mafia plan is weaker but I agree that it's the best we've got. It still seems to come down to a lylo, but gives us some info.

The kdowns town plan isn't really a plan, but that's fine, because it,s really unlikely.

[Seacore]

I really don't understand the paranoia you two have of ConS plan, parts of it look rock solid to me and the rest doesn't seem open to scum manipulation, but whatever. Either way, kdowns has to die, stop dragging it out jason, nobody else is going to receive 3 votes today.

You'd need me to get ConS lynched, and I'm still undecided about which of you is the other scum. Killing kdowns buys me a night to decide.
Likewise, I don't think Farside or Cons is willing to have me lynched.

[Seacore]

The plan is really clear.

If (when) kdowns flips as SK, then we'll know that there's only a mafia out there. Because mafia cannot do their Kill action and their normal action, the plan works as follows
Confirmed town farside JKs jason. Therefore if there is a kill, we know jason is confirmed town.
Cons will also target Jason as a neighbour. So if there is a kill (which confirms jason as town) confirmed town jason can say whether he was targeted with neighbour by ConS or not.
If ConS used his neighbour power, he cannot kill. Which means if Farside didn't kill, and jason didn't kill and Cons didn't kill, if there was a kill, it must have been me. If Cons didn't use his neighbour power, we assume he was the killer and lynch him.

It is almost perfect.
If there is no kill, however, it does not prove jason is scum, but it still allows us one more day to discuss it with all of us still alive. It is a great plan.
Small town games are all about working out the best combination of actions and targets, to say "no, I'm going to go rogue, because I know I'm town" is dumb when the plan is great.
If the plan is clear and there are no holes, then it doesn't matter who came up with it, it exists on it's own merits.

Find a flaw with it, or follow it. To do otherwise is scummy.

Okay, so that was scenario 1.

Scenario 2 is if kdowns is mafia
This leaves an SK alive which means we can't declare "using an ability" as proof that you didn't kill.
I think the best scenario for it is that Farside JK's jason
This is not so much to stop jason from killing as to a) remove the kill delay from the equation and to b) protect him.
This means that if there is a death it is ConS or myself. Which gives us a 50/50 in lylo.
This is much better than any other option. If the kill delay is used (or left unJK'd) then jason could delay and kill the same target which really muddies the waters.

Finally, if kdowns is town then it really just all comes down to where the NKs fall and abilities should not be dictated.

Again I will say that instead of being blind and just saying "scum would totally want to dictate actions" actually look at the plan(s). The kdowns-SK one in particular is awesome. Best case scenario it wins us the game, worst case scenario it makes us skip a night.

Unvote

I really want to hear jason (and farside) say that they'll follow the plan or why they won't before we get to a lynch. You MUST find a problem with the plan before saying no.

[Seacore]

FACT

There is no room for scum manipulation within the plan[/b]

Prove me wrong.

[Seacore]

No, pay attention

A "no kill" will not damn somebody, but it forces scum to skip a night and gives the power back to the town.

I have no action, so I don't have a choice of whether I stick to the plan or not
mafia-ConS has a choice of whether he uses his neighbour or if he uses his kill. If he doesn't use his neighbour (which you will know) , and there is a kill, then he dies.

This becomes less certain if it's a SK we're trying to track. But it still works in limiting the field.

[Seacore]

We are openly dictating the actions of all 4 survivors of today.

If anybody deviates from the plan and is proven to have done so, we've found scum.
If nobody deviates from the plan and somebody dies then we've found scum (Me).

This assumes kdowns as SK.

If kdowns is mafia, and we're looking for an SK, the everything still applies, any deviation from the plan is still finding scum and if there is a death, one of ConS and I are scum (we've narrowed the field). Yes jason-town already knows one of Cons and I are scum, but Cons and I don't know that.

[Seacore]

I'm going to take this line by line. Just for emphasis

who is to say scum or SK stick to it? who is to say one of you pushing this is not scum/SK if not both? If you are (And 2 of 3 of you are) anti town.. and you are pushing this, this could be used to your advantage that is how...

Farside isn't scum, so we don't have to worry about that assuming she agrees to follow the plan. Each plan involves JKing you, so we don't have to worry about you not following the plan. I have no night action (or I have a kill if I'm scum) so there's nothing in the plan for me to follow. The only person that needs to follow the plan is ConS, who needs to neighbourise you to prove he isn't mafia. If he doesn't do that, we kill him.
See, there is no room at all for the scum to not follow the plan.

IF you are town... you really would understand how much WIFOM and manipulation can be involved.

I am town. There is no WIFOM or manipulation here. The plan is transparent due to our abilities being transparent. Assuming we don't just lynch you automatically if there is no night kill, we're safe, and the worst case scenario for us means that scum have skipped their kill and we are no worse off than before. Which is AWESOME.

Scum/SK can no kill... frame someone with the JK.

Again, I'll point out that we aren't going to automatically kill anybody in the case of a no-kill. So there is no framing. We've just forced the scum to give up a kill.

Scum/SK minupulation righht there! I will not have my actions dictated to me, by someone who is very highly likely to be anti-town by process of elimination.

What manipulation? Everything is transparent in the plan. Given that there is no room for hidden antics within the plan (since they are all accounted for) then it doesn't matter whether ConS is town or scum or SK, the plan stands alone.

If there is something wrong with the plan, then we won't follow it, but just being suspicious of us is not good enough reason not to. The plan will help us work out where the scum is.

[Seacore]

JK in every instance that I've seen is just RB + doc.
The reason that I think Jason should be jk'd is that the kil delay interfers with our information at this point.
But you two refuse to see it, so fine

vote kdowns

[Seacore]

The kill delay ability does not help us tonight because it muddies the waters in determining who did what. But whatever, you guys refuse to see it.

[Seacore]

Yes, we'll be potentially sacrificing a townie, but then we discover who the last scum is. 1 for 1 is a good trade.

[Seacore]

Someone hammer!

[Seacore]

Unlikely, cons and farside haven't stated any desire in lymching me today. Wheres everybody is willing to lynch you
There hasn't even been a coherent case against me
Its just jason with some dodgy relationship theories and you with a grudge from my Day 1 policy push.

In comparison, your lack of contribution, your active lurking and your two hammers demamd a lynch.

[Seacore]

Damn, well done Jason. I didn't know if it was you or Cons, right up until the end, so well done.

It was always going to come down to whether the final scum had me pegged as the SK or not.

This was fun, and my first time as 3rd party.

[Seacore]

Oh, I forgot to say, thanks Fonz, it was fun. It was my first small town.

If I'd thought about it better, I would have aimed at Jason way earlier. It didn't click until late in the game how dangerous kill delay was in a lylo that I'd inevitably have to get to to win. I was aiming at players rather than roles.

[Seacore]

I'm glad you didn't have me pegged and instead felt it was a 'chance'. That makes me feel better about my game.

Can I ask why you thought I was SK? Given your presented case (which was obviously crap since you knew I wasn't mafia) was all about my relationships with your team.

[Seacore]

Well done, I was really hoping ConS would look scummy based on his absurd case on Farside that he kept pushing.

Also, kdowns. With no harshness intended, I think you need to return to the newbie queue for a few games. Yes, I took advantage of your bad play to have you available as a late game mislynch. Just because you found me scummy 'all game' doesn't make you right. You were unable to articulate a case against me that could persuade anybody and the points that you did raise were not scum tells in the slightest.
As SK, I played my day game pretty much like town. (In fact, I forgot I was SK for much of D1). I would have pushed the policy lynch angle on you regardless of my alignment.

[Seacore]

Yeah, I knew you had me pegged Magua, that's what you had to die! Muahahaha! It was a bonus that I got Laurie in the same kill.

I'm surprised that I came off as safety conscious, I was trying to look the opposite. My rough day game plan was to look loud but ineffectual, as in my experience, SK try to sit below the surface.

[Seacore]

Yeah, but if you were wrong, you would have lost. Since the SK shot Farside and you shot Seacore-town, resulting in SK v Mafia with an SK win.

But might haves don't cut it, you won, good game

[Seacore]

I knew one of us had to kill farside. I was hoping we'd both do it and i had a game plan ready for the 1v1v1

[Seacore]

Yeah, ConS really confused me with his intense need to push the idea that farside was scum, even though it would have been suicide for me, as non-aligned scum, to lie.

[Seacore]

Mostly town, Magua, but I didn't care. During the day I was happy to scum hunt, at night I was getting rid of threats to me.

[Seacore]

Lol, Magua is always quality in a graveyard QT

[Seacore]

Hmmm, seems people feel my farside attack was sub-optimal.

Here are my thoughts.

I didn't need to kill the mafia to win. Since I would have won automatically if there were two players remaining.
Also, me killing the mafia would not stop them from killing me.

So, I hoped that mafia would hit the wrong target in aiming at me, and I'd kill farside who wouldn't be JKing me, and then i'd win. That was the home run shot.
Plan B was for Farside to JK the mafia, my kill would go through, and there'd be 1 scum, me and 1 unconfirmed town remaining.

I'd then immediately post (and I was going to be online at the time) saying "I vote no lynch because I refuse to play king maker, you guys are going to have to shoot it out between yourselves" hoping that the mafia would be convinced that I was town.

Finally, shooting at town meant that if I didn't win, mafia probably would, shooting at scum meant the opposite. I chose mafia.

[Seacore]

Yep, as usual, my scum hunting needs work, I'm pretty terrible at it actually.

Which is funny, because you pegged me as SK because my scum hunting at holes.

ConS, I seriously don't understand how you aren't understanding this.

I lost the game because the other scum killed me.
That was pretty much my biggest risk the moment the game got into 3v1v1.

So lets say SK Seacore recieved the information "Jason is town", but instead said "Farside is town"
My lie may have still been true or false, but I definitely wouldn't have known.
If it was false, and Farside was the last mafia. Farside would know for certain that I was the SK, because town-Seacore would never ever lie about it.
But SK Seacore, having lied, would not know that Farside was the scum.

So Farside would shoot at Seacore (the same way Jason did)

Therefore there was no chance that Scum-Seacore would lie
There was also no chance that Town-Seacore would lie

Therefore there was no chance that Seacore would lie

Therefore Farside was definitely town.

Where have I failed in logic?

[Seacore]

A significant advantage, but entirely necessary given that the SK must survive til Lylo to win.

[Seacore]

Similar for me. I didn't feel I had a clear target. I was hoping the scum would be more worried about the JK and the tracker, and I didn't feel too much heat at the time.