Mini 1250: That 70s Smalltown - GAME OVER

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hello Wisconsin!!!!

/confirm

I have to say I really love SmallTown setups.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So now I'm just waiting on mb to make his selection so I can get the sweet, sweet role I want ....

Good times ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

I can almost predict what

MoS

is going to take no matter his alignment with his death rate record.

Did Mastermind of Sin replace in for one of those we know is going to flake, like Kondi for example?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Wait, do I pick in thread or by PM?

Given this is an open setup there is no reason for secrecy ...

Or is this a sly way of claiming Kelso?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Nah Seacore ... Kelso is the consumate idiot.

Jackie is vain and self-centered but not a moron.

Leo is chemically adjusted.

Laurie wasn't stupid just a total slutbag.

Fez isn't stupid just foreign.

I could go on

[MagnaofIllusion]

ITT Seacore is perhaps a little too dedicated to RP

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, expect my pick sometime around 9:35am EST.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok and the hour has passed ...

I choose

Red Forman

.

PMing Fonz and Conspiracy now.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Thanks for pming me MoI, but it's not my turn...

Damn it I grabbed the wrong list .... MoI you Dumbass!!!!

Pming Quilford now.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I love the delicous irony that either Jackie or Laurie (my least favorite show characters) will be biting the big one as the unpicked unlucky victim.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Seacore ...

I can't stand stoner hippies. You need my

foot

vote up your ass!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Kdowns comes out clearly ahead in the Seacore versus Kdowns debate.

@Farside

– is your meta hate for Conspiracy greater than your meta hate for me?

@Conspiracy

– so in 121 you properly call out Seacore on his scummy play and then vote Quilford for making what you call a joke? Explain how what he did was scummy at all.

--

Kdowns he has a point. If we HAD to lynch right this instanr, youd be the best bet

No, by the time you posted this (106) either Seacore or Iam would be better lynchs than policy.

--

Day 1 is nearly always a random lynch, since nobody has good evidence yet, unless somebody wants to claim scum?

This is a load of tripe. I can point you to any number of Mini Theme games where solid scum-hunting lead to a scum lynch.

But to follow up. Do you believe that pushing your lynch on the basis of your role is a scummy action?

Why would scum want this? Which of us currently voting for you is scummier due to our case/vote?

Pushing a policy lynch over actual scum-hunting is a scum-move. Absolutely. You may be positioning it as "Gettin out of RVS". But you are specifically doing it in a scummy way and getting attention for it should be expected.

Why would scum want a mislynch Day 1 that they masked under the guise of ‘optimized Game Theory’? Are you seriously asking that question?

Conversley, there are 4 scum lynches out there. Some of them have really minor side effects for the scum, like losing Bob,

since we as town would probably end up dictating (to a certain degree) where the inventions go anyway.

And the bolded is why my vote is staying with you and is now non-RVS.

Directing Town actions, especially minor ones like Bob’s inventions, overwhelmingly benefits Scum. The uncertainty of what is going to happen at Night is one of the things that keeps Scum honest. Having a full road-map of what is going to happen only lets Scum plan their Night actions more effectively.

Lynching Scum-Seaore before this happens - small gain to town (due to elimination of noise) small loss to scum (they get to work out that somebody isn't the SK)

You couldn’t have this more wrong.

Lynching scum is a Major gain to Town. Putting it any other way is absurd.

How's your scum hunting going? I see some great substance in your posts, I can see how your method is much better than mine.

Further evidence that you need to die. Farside is calling you out as scum for your stance and lack of any drive to scum-hunt. All you’ve done is argue policy lynching with kdowns very ineffectively.

Farside is scum-hutning you. You are doing nothing and this attempt at rhetoric driven dismissal raises my scum-read on you.

--

farside should definitely be saving her ability for taking

Seacore's ability when he is inevitably killed before D3.

(Even if he's scum, the SK will want to be rid of him too, so.) The only other role that I might see her taking is the tracker. She should not have the option of taking any role that would help her as scum in any way.

Quilford should be jailing Seacore every night.

If Seacore is scum, it keeps him from making the kill, if he's town, it keeps him alive.

Yeah, this “Player X” must do Y looks very much like you are grasping too hard for Town cred by positioning yourself as “Town leader”.

The bolded paragraphs don’t make sense. If Quilford JKs him Night one he absolutely survives to Day 2. If Quilford dies overnight then Jason insures that Seacore lives to the end of Day 3 to give his innocent. Assuming that Quilford and Jason are alive at N1 there is no chance that Seacore doesn't live to Day 3 (unless he is lynched as scum of course).

There are any number of roles that farside’s ability should consider if he is Town. Trying to limit it to only Tracker or Innocent Child Cop is rather foolish.

But let’s talk about your theory that Leo’s ability is worth defending – a single Innocent role is useful but hardly game-breaking. Farside using the Universal Backup potentially on a role that doesn’t find scum is hardly optimal, IMO.

Furthermore your position that Caroline is worried about a single confirmed Innocent when she has to wipe out everyone is pretty laughable. Ooba’s Stardust SmallTown Mafia proves that the SK has to be shooting for scum as they can easily NK her or endgame her.

And even furthermore why would a “Mod innocent” given to theoretical scum Seacore be trustworthy in the first place?

TL-DR

: You are over-valuing the importance of Seacore’s role.

His role has by far the highest ratio of worth to scum/worth to town.

So what. We don’t lynch on set-up speculation. Sorry, that’s scum-talk right there.

At some point, we're going to want to lynch MoI with all the scummiest players on the wagon, but that's something to save for a later day.

Oh, so even if I am the Towniest Town that ever Towned you think policy lynching me based on role is a good idea instead of just lynching the actual scummy players you are wanting on my wagon? Good to know. In this case that means 'Thanks for the scummy position'.

[MagnaofIllusion]

What was your thought process for picking Vengeful townie?

It was a combination of playing to my wincon and a little bit of greediness.

Wincon -

1. If I drew Town I wanted to be sure any scum did not have access to it as it gives scum a free kill. Reducing the number of kills in a Small game is paramount to Town’s success IMO. Dayplay needs as many shots as possible to get scum lynches.
2. If I drew Mafia / SK it helps my wincon to varying degrees.

I think it is the number 1 role that benefits whatever Wincon is drawn directly. Thus I was glad to get it.

Greed –

After ooba’s SmallTown Stardust I understood the folly of taking a Powerful Town role (RB). Thus I wanted whatever scum might be shooting at me (this applies regardless of whatever alignment I draw) to have to choose over possibly stronger non-aligned roles like Tracker and JK. Thus if I play a strong game (and I expect to) I wanted to make the choice tough for whoever wanted to kill me.

As for you, well I am happy to have correctly called you town in many of our past games.

It wasn’t that long ago that you called for my head immediately every game.

--

Last time I played in a Smalltown game, town secured a guaranteed victory on D2 by coordinating night actions, so I think I can say with some certainty that you are wrong here.

So you want to coordinate Night actions Day 1 before lynch when it worked on DAY 2 in the game you are talking about?

But please elaborate on the facts of that game. Was it played here? If so link? What happened Day 1? What was the role make-up of the game? Did it have a Serial Killer?

There are some roles, like the tracker, that shouldn't be directed at the moment, sure. But allowing a total free for all at night makes it a lot easier for scum to do whatever they feel like, just as much as planning out every single action would. The ideal is somewhere in the middle.

So here you are not representing my position. I’m specifically attacking Seacore for trying to direct Minor actions like Bob. That’s exactly along the lines of trying to plan out every action.

Still think JKing him would be the smart choice, though. He's worth protecting if he's town, and he's worth blocking if he's scum. Even if scum know he's being blocked, it causes them a headache if he's their only guy without another night action to perform, because they'll have to fakeclaim an action to make the kill in that situation.

And it assures the scum NK isn’t blocked. Only if he is Caroline is it absolutely beneficial and even then we will not know until the end of the next day.

As stated above – reducing NKs to extend the Daygame is paramount IMO.

It's not setup speculation. It's setup fact.

Word-lawyer all you wish … whatever you want to call it, it is NOT scum-hunting.

Yes. Unless you are literally 100% confirmed town somehow, you should be lynched at some point. Your role = free lynch. Sorry if you're scum and you picked a guaranteed to be lynched role, but you know, you only have yourself to blame.

Your further insistence on not actually looking at play but using personal Mafia theory to back your position is noted for scuminess.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Chainsaw defense of kdowns noted. Don't you get any scummy vibes from his response to the lynch suggestion?

No, I don’t. I get newb vibes from his responses. I don’t see anything scummy at all about saying “hey, I’m not rolling over for your stupid policy lynch”. Which is basically what happened, IMO.

And this is just scum trying to throw town into disarray. Neighborizer, backup, and inventor all need to be directed since:

- an undirected town player brings no extra benefit (for neighborizer and inventor, scum could try to kill the target but that's mostly wasting a kill; with backup, scum can't interfere at all),
- an undirected scum player does a lot of damage to town (scum circle for neighborizer; extra night action or loss of vote for town for inventor; powerful role in scum's hands for backup).
- it is easy to check whether the player followed the directions.

The other night actions could be undirected, with the exception of JK and kill delay with regard to Seacore; but it also might make sense to direct them to deflect the scum's kill from a powerful role.

Um, no. But thanks for playing.

How does an ‘undirected’ scum player damage Town again?

Neighborizor has to claim target the next day. Target confirms or denys. Other players that may have information to confirm or deny weight in.

Inventor’s cause of loss of vote on Pro-Town player causes high levels of suspicion on scum inventor.

Backup, if they are deemed scummy, can be lynched. And what roles do you consider ‘powerful’ in this case? Please elaborate.

The preceeding is an Appeal to Fear. Noted.

@Iceguy -

I want your opinion on the record - you support the 'Kill the Role' approach that Iam and Seacore pushed, correct?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Countering a case by saying "I'm town, I would be a mislynch, don't lynch me!!!" is now a town tell?

Um what case? The “His role benefits scum potentially the most, lynch him Day 1 screw scumhunting” 'case' (I'm using ''s because it really isn't a case at all)? If so any response is a Town tell because that is a stupid and scummy ‘case’.

How about reading my post.

I read your post. Your reasons make no sense.

Scum player is already in the circle, damage is done. Neighborizer has no possibility to lie anyway.

Um, what damage is that again? The Circle is ALREADY PUBLICLY KNOWN. It’s not like you are inviting scum to a hidden QT that results in Town deaths.

Reality check – publicly known Neighborhoods aren’t radically powerful scum-hunting tools in an open setup. True story.

Question - how many neighborhoods have you been a part of here on MS?

Again … you aren’t giving a valid reason.

Except this doesn't come into play until the pro-town player actually flips pro-town, and he can always argue how scummy he looked. We know the drill.

So you are presupposing what will happen based solely on positioning your argument. Noted.

Everybody can be lynched if deemed scummy. Worthless statement that doesn't address my point.

Where is the benefit to not directing the backup?

It addresses what point you’ve made.

You haven’t shown the benefit of NOT directing the backup. Your ‘It keeps dangerous powers out of scum hands’ is a hypothethecial. Are you asserting Farside is scum? And what powerful roles are you seeking to keep out? Until you do so all you are doing is fear-mongering.

You don't think a scum jailkeeper is powerful?

In an open setup with no Vig or Strong Cop? No, not really. At best he can perhaps stop a Serial Killer kill. In the end JK in this setup is MUCH stronger in Town hands than scum.

In this setup the probable most powerful role a scum backup could take would be mine. Nothing like a surprise "Hey, you lynched me now I get an extra kill".

Throwing mud and hoping something sticks noted.

Let me illuminate your hypocricy with the following quote from the post you originally made –

And this is just scum trying to throw town into disarray

So pick your poison Mr Guy. Is the above mudslinging? Or is it scum-hunting.

No. I wouldn't support a kdowns lynch simply because of his role. I'm supporting a kdowns lynch for his scummy behavior, with the role being an additional factor.

So let me get this straight.

You don’t agree with the original position Iam and Secore took. But you are saying his response to what is effectively a bad policy lynch is scummy?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Sure. Sounds good. UNVOTE: VOTE: Quilford

Now this … this is scummy. Why exactly are you sheeping Cons again?

--

For those who are attacking me for trying to policy lynch instead of scum hunting, I'll say again that I was arguing for starting our discussion focussed on kdown and going from there, rather than just having random votes and wasting time. Basically, i was agreeing with Iam. And I think most people have to admit it's been fairly successful in starting a real conversation.

This is all well and good but this post itself is the first sign that you are actually interested in looking for scum movations.

I draw attention to the "properly". Cons did nothing of the kind. His two points against me were the one mentioned above about me being Leo and not coming up with it on my own, and Cons not understanding that I was jokingly giving up scum hunting based on kdown's requirements.

In my opinion it was properly. Sorry, your stance was (since you seem to have backed off it) scummy and ConS propely called you out on it. His refusal to vote said proper call out over his Quilford attack attracted my attention.

You go on to say I don’t attack ConS. That’s because questioned him. I needed to see response to why Quilford was worthy of a vote when IMO you were much scummier than him. This is part of the scum-hunting process.

His response at 132 wasn’t sufficent and his further focus on the ‘joke’ element of what I see as standard Quilford play is scummy.

--

Seriously, if you all keep posting walls I am replacing out of this game.
Especially when those walls are extremely useless.

Replace out then. I’m not changing my personal style of play which is effective at catching scum because you dislike reading.

Anyways, MoI skims as overeager in this game. Some of his attacks are irrelevant.
(I may or may not give reasons for it, I am totally not in the mood for it now as I hate those walls)

I’ll just mark this down as rhetoric you can’t back up til the point you get ‘motivated’ then.

@ kondi, we are all voting Quilford. Please blend in with town.

Nope.

@ConS

– So you think Quilford's play is sufficently scummy to warrant his lynch Day 1 as a JK. Do you think Seacore is Town or scum?

--

So you don't think a response to a bad case can be scummy?

No fluff as usual,

just a simple "yes" or "no".

Heh he, nice try but sorry … you don’t get to dictate the rules of conversation.

The bolded is more mudslinging on your part. Scummy, especially in light of your own hypocrisy on the issue.

And I’ll tell you once again – I do NOT find kdown’s response to the ‘case’ scummy in the least. Because the case itself is scummy. Seacore himself is pulling back from saying it was an actual case but was a method to ‘get out of RVS’.

So you're agreeing with me? Or what point are you trying to make?

No, I’m refuting your position that scum infiltrating ‘the Circle’ is some significant deal that justifies your Appeals to Fear.

Do you have her as confirmed town? If not, it does make sense to consider the possibility she's scum?

So who’s fluffing now as opposed to answering in a simple Yes/No. Hint – it’s you.

You didn’t answer – do you think farside is scum?

Of course I don’t have her as confirmed Town … that’s not the point. Your reasoning on why farside’s ability should be directed is predicated on farside-scum. So it’s simply an Appeal to Fear if you are trying to assert reasons why she should be directed if you don’t actually have reason to think she is scum.

How about stopping town powers, especially in a game where every town player has a power role that is known?

This is a completely open setup. Everyone knows everything about everyone else’s role and abilities (excluding alignment). So you are positioning a scum JK as extremely powerful when because it can ‘block Town powers’.

Fact 1 – There is no other role-blocking mechanics in the game. Fact. So scum JK blocking an Town power essentially sets up the JK and Town PR in a 1v1. This is bad for scum (outside of LYLO) as even if the JK wins that Day when the Town player flips he is the next day’s lynch for lying or get killed by the Serial Killer overnight.

Fact 2 – There is only one role that Town has that is overwhelmingly powerful – Tracker. The rest are fairly innocuous (Self Watch / Inventor / Neighborizor).

Fact 3 – A scum JK has to use his JK abilility and thus is greatly restricted from making the scum kill.

So you assert there are no powerful scum roles, and your role would be powerful for scum? Pick one.

Nice straw-man. I’m asserting your suggestions of what ‘powerful scum roles’ are is incorrect.

It's scum-hunting. So far, you've failed to give a pro-town reason why we shouldn't coordinate night actions.

Oh, so you calling me scum is scum-hunting but me calling you out on an Appeal to Fear (you know, a scum move) is mud-slinging Nice hypocrisy.

The burden of proof is on you to provide a convincing reason why coordinating night actions is a Pro-Town action. Your arguments so far fail the logic test.

Yes. I'm not giving him a free pass simply because the iaau/Seacore case was bad.

And I’m asserting his reaction is in no way scummy.

So iaau and Seacore are now both "null scum", whatever that is?

See this furthers my scum read on you. Having a null to scum read on someone is pretty standard Mafiascum play. That you are trying to push it as something that isn’t obvious is scummy.

[MagnaofIllusion]

UNVOTE: Seacore

My vote will likely be going to either Cons, Iceguy or on an outside shot Iam pending on the next round of responses and posting.

[MagnaofIllusion]

He stated that pretty early on with the back and forth discussion in game that Seacore and I had. Did you miss it earlier?

Looking back I see him say "I think this is a good way to get out of RVS". I also see continual attacks on Kondi based on the policy lynch and statements like "Policy lynches on roles, not always a bad thing" that indicated to me he was using that ostensible RVS stance to push hard for Kondi.

Add in his "How's your scum-hunting working out for you" little rhetoric that he threw at you after you called him on not scum-hunting and I saw it was worth pursuing.

His last post where he explicitly backs of Kondi as a good lynch for any reason and where he goes after Cons and I was the first solid sign he was interested in scum-hunting IMO.

[MagnaofIllusion]

This'n here.

So you are relying on a game three or so years ago where two Scum and zero Town were dead by Day 2 as the basis for saying coordinating actions Day 1 here is a good idea?

Have you played any other, more recent Smalltown games?

Inventor could give scum an extra kill without the need to be lynched to activate it, among other things, so.

Yes he could at the cost of guaranteeing his demise the next day when he has to claim who he gave the skates to and is summarily lynched to test if he is lying.

I suppose that sort of scenario could accelerate LYLO or to give scum the ability to kill and use their action in the same Night. But that’s not what you are presenting … you are pushing the extra kill as dangerous.

Why do you mention Quilford's role here? Haven't you been arguing the entire time that giving consideration to people's roles in deciding who to lynch is super scummy?

1. Why didn’t you wait until ConS responded before posting this?
2. Why did you specifically eliminiate the second line from my question? The original quote was –

@ConS – So you think Quilford's play is sufficently scummy to warrant his lynch Day 1 as a JK. Do you think Seacore is Town or scum?

The second part is integral to purpose of the question.

What I see here is possibly scum cherry-picking in an attempt to paint a false picture of my motives.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'll respond in full when I have more time when I am not V/LA ...

I find Iceguy's case to be mix of overapplication of Wikitells (see how often he uses the word Mudslinging in that post) and a sad Meta attack (he fails to mention half of the things he attacked me for in said game were WHEN I WAS TOWN, since I was recruited N1).

But look closely and see what is missing from the post - a vote for me.

Yup, he builds this large case that is he purports to prove I ams scum. And doesn't vote me. Because he knows I am Town and that I will kill scum on my wagon if I am lynched.

That's scum play right there.

VOTE: Iceguy

Yup ... why don't you call it OMGUS for me so I can have a laugh while you are at it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, large catch-up post incoming …

IceGuy is town.
Farside is town

If Iceguy is scum as I suspect hiplop makes a very logical partner at this stage. He's playing to hiplop scum meta at this stage.

--

You know what, I was going to make another zebra quote post responding to MoI's latest nonsense, but it seems like that would just be creating unnecessary noise preaching to the choir, so I'm just going to do this instead.

Lulz. Appeal to Majority noted.

We don't want to hammer him without figuring out a) which roles are most expendable if town, and b) who is most likely to be scum in the unlikely event that MoI is actually town, because people high on those lists are the ones we want on the wagon.

Sure, go through this exercise if you want. I’ll be shooting who I perceive to be the most likely scum on my wagon regardless of what ‘role utility’ nonsense gets put together if my lynch does go through.

Hey .. instead of playing ‘role utility guru’ why don’t you drop a list of 3 names who you think would be most likely scum when I do flip Town.

--

@MOI: Do you think Seacore is scum?

A this juncture he’s not in my Top 3. His combination of “Policy lynch on role”, “Ridicule those who talk about actual scum-hunting” and “Direct all actions” I find scummy but his explanantion of the first part as a means to get out of RVS is somewhat credible given his later posts.

Why would scum do this? What is wrong with trying to get out of RVS?

Again … nothing wrong with getting out of RVS. But until he really came back to thread and stopped actually pushing kdowns on that element alone I’m wasn’t going to assume that was his motive.

This also ignores the other elements of his play I found suspect.

Why Cons or Iam?

Con’s push on Quilford is craptastic.

Iam’s focus on Organizing Night actions and Roles as opposed to significant scum-hunting is scummy IMO.

I notice you don’t ask why I listed Iceguy. What is your read on him?

What's wrong with that?

Are you seriously asking me why the following two situations aren’t parallel at all and trying to suggest the course of action in this game should be driven by the second?

Coordinating actions in a SmallTown game with no dead scum Day1

Coordinating actions in a SmallTown game with 2 of 3 Mafia and 0 Town dead by the start of day 2.

They are two VERY different game-states but Iam’s attempting to say the results of that last game indicate how we should proceed in this on are at best Anti-Town.

What does your second question have to do with your first question?

1. The ‘plan’ as I see it floated is that Quilford ‘has’ to JK Seacore to preserve his Day 3 innocent possibility (which isn’t overwhelmingly useful IMO but that’s another argument).
2. Cons is suggesting lynching Quilford (the JK) on crappy reasons.
3. The only reason lynching Quilford Day 1 makes sense is if he thinks Seacore is also scum. Because otherwise even if Quilford is scum Seacore not living to Day 2 means he is confirmed scum under the “plan” and will be lynched on sight Day 2.

Thus it is very important to know what Cons’s stance on Seacore’s alignment is. Especially since the ‘plan’ predicates exactly what hypothetical scum Quilford would have to do N1 (or at least prevent the scum team from killing hypothetical Town Seacore.

But thanks to Iam and yourself that’s line of questioning has been blown up.

I think MOI lied about his reason's for picking his role.

Oh, so I lied about why I picked vengeful which was before I knew my alignment. Good to know

--

So scum, just make a bad case on one of your partners and MoI will give him a free pass.

Pure fluff right here.

Again, mudslinging. You don't care at all when scum is infiltrating the circle?

Because it’s a fully open game. No inherent significant ‘Town advantage’ to a Neighborhood that isn’t hidden. Period. As I’ve said before and that you ignored.

Why do you keep crying “Infiltrating the Neighborhood” is some very damaging thing to Town? You can’t provide any reason why it is.

And mudslinging again. Why are you simultaneously conceding farside isn't confirmed town, while refusing the possibility she's scum?

Why do you want to deal in absolutes when it comes to town and scum reads?

Complete misrep. Please quote where I refuse to believe the possibility she’s scum.

In the meantime you again dodge the facts - that you are predicating the so-called advantages to Town of directing her action when it’s only advantageous if she is scum. And you steadfastly refuse to take a stance on that element.

So once again – Do you think Farside is scum? Yes or no please, no fluffing or dodging.

He can always argue he didn't think that was a town player and was behaving scummy. Even a town JK is going to block a town player once in a while. Fact 1 is Lie 1.

Your refutation fails to consider that said claim can be examined by the Town and judged. Fail on Lie Attack 1.

So the inventor, which might postpone LyLo for one day, is "innocuous" in your eyes? And you're not even mentioning the kill delayer and copycat, which also have a night action? Nice try. Fact 2 is Lie 2.

Yes, the possible scenario where the Inventor becomes “powerful” is such a narrow case that has NOTHING to due with current game-state I do call it innocuous.

I don’t mention either the Kill Delayer or Copycat because it is pretty obvious neither one is strong. The Kill Delayer is a much weakened Doc.

Please elaborate on why the Copycat is powerful.

Fail on Lie Attack 2.

Yes, it was mud-slinging, because I wasn't appealing to fear, I was showing why your plan is anti-town.

Yes, you were Appealing to Fear. That’s exactly what yelling “OH MY GOD THE DANGER” is when the ‘dangers’ you provided don’t reflect the realities of how Mafia is actually played.

Also once again – you are the one with the Plan (direct all Night actions). I’m just pointing how bad that plan is.

Regarding your meta – I’m just going to chuckle and leave it at that. If you think a single game where I changed alignment midstream is going to suddenly let you read my scum games you are either scum making it up (which I think you are) or pretty stupid. We’ll see after the game is over.

My vote happily rests on you beceause Tracker is a powerful Town role … but you are scum so lynching you is Pro-Town.

Most of the case was based on your behavior D2 and later.

I’ll let people read the red and see all the false ‘scummy’ play you highlighted about my Day 1 play that wasn’t from a Scum perspective since I was Town.

And why didn’t you highlight any posts where you went off on some tangent making long posts ‘proving’ I was partners with Scum-hunter again? Oh that’s right … it would show how bad your play was there. Hmmm … then again that would bolster the perception you are now Town since your play is equally bad here.

No, I know when you get lynched, you're going to try to kill me because you're scum and I have the most powerful town power - as you said yourself. And since my power is useless to the town if I'm killed D1, I'm not giving scum-MoI that shot.

I was hoping you’d make this sort of argument. Because it is total crap.

Scum don’t have an incentive to try to push on perceived Pro-Town roles. Because they have a Nightkill. DERP.

Here’s the facts. There are no full Doctors in this game. At best you can be either

1. JKed at night to protect you – in which case your power doesn’t work and you are useless to Town
2. Killed Delayed at night – you get one successful track in before you bite the dust. Hardly the grand danger to scum since you could possibly only get 1 guilty before dying (and that is dependant on you actually making the right call Tracking the killer).

These both assume you are Town. In that case it benefits scum to NOT push for your lynch. Under your ludicrous scenario scum risks being Identified pushing on you as ‘Town Powerful Role” and then you possibly getting a successful track on them Night 1.

But that’s why I think you are scum … your play is scummy. You use rhetoric and Appeals to Repetition as opposed to using logic to analyse motives. You use Appeals to Fear to smear those pointing out how your ‘Direct all Night actions’ plan is Pro-scum. You call someone scum but then refuse to vote them because you are afraid for your life – that’s a Scum motivation not a Town one.

So once again … I’m calling you scum because you are scum. Scum scared to actually vote for the Vengeful Townie.

What is better: Lynching scum and not losing tracker or lynching scum and losing tracker?

I expect the wagon to go forward without my vote.

Classic false dichotomy. You only consider the possibility I am scum. Town of course tend to not be 100% sure as you are presenting here. But that’s of course because you are scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Are you seriously asking me how a scum-and-town neighborhood is worse than an only-town neighborhood?

No, I’m asking you to justify your stance IN A COMPLETELY OPEN GAME that Neighborhoods are inherently powerful at all.

This isn’t a normal game. The potential power of a Neighborizor comes in sharing information in a hidden fashion. allowing for Town to potentially share information and reads that scum doesn't know about. That’s can’t happen here. Eric’s ability is basically just an extension of the normal thread.

Do you not understand this difference?

You're pushing a plan that doesn't change anything if she's town and benefits us if she's scum.

I’m not pushing any plan. I’m just calling yours anti-Town. Continue to lie about that over and over and over.

I currently have her as neutral leaning town.

Oh, so you finally gave a read. Was that so hard?

What has this answer to do with my refutation? Read it, understand it and try to reply.

Lulz. I understand. You are trying to present a scenario that ignores the actual dayplay involved.

So LyLo is a "narrow case" in your eyes? Also, I only mentioned one possible course of Inventor action.

Yes, it is an absolutely ‘narrow’ case.

1. It purposes that Inventor is Town.
2. It purposes the Inventor is alive at LYLO.
3. It purposes the Inventor still has access to the power in question.

Why didn’t you mention any other “Inventor is powerful” actions then? I just blew up the one you offered and you aren't backing up your position.

I'm not explaining the basics of Mafia to you. We have a very good wiki where you can look up what the PRs' powers are and how they can swing the game in favor of their alignment.

Mwhahahah. I admit Ice … for a scum you have balls. I understand Mafia well. It’s why I have that shiny Scummie award and a history of being killed as Town N1.

I do have serious questions about your ability to understand the game and how it is actually played outside the ‘Wiki’ given what you are posting.

You're not the god of Mafia. And you're lying.

Empty answer. I’m not lying. The Wiki you so love to direct me to has explantions of why appealing to fear and repetition are scum tactics. Maybe you can read up on it!!!

So far, you only tried to show why your "plan" (i.e. uncoordinated town) is not worse. I haven't seen a single argument that is even trying to show why it's better.

I’ve already explained the Number one reason why it is better – providing scum with a detailed map to Town Night actions gives scum more information by which to effectively use their actions. Just look up Andrius’s “Return to Mordor” Mini Theme to see exactly why – Fate rode his “We have a plan to absolutely win the game by coordinating actions” plan all the way to a Town loss.

But keep ignoring it and using the “You can't prove why" stance over and over ...

Here is a shining example of this. "You're scum" repeated over and over to both drain my energy and hope something sticks.

Oh I’m sorry … whut? I’m scum for repeating something over and over again? Like ‘mudslinging’ which you’ve posted over and over again.

Hypocrisy.

It's still funny you're calling my play "bad" when we called two out of three scum on Day 2, and the only reason we didn't call the third scum correctly was a) a vanilla townie (who was later modkilled for his behavior) with a very bad fake cop claim and b)

we not knowing you were recruited instead of being scum from the start.

It was bad. You keep clinging to the “I called 2 of 3 scum” mantra and making excuses for why you didn’t find the third (who you kept defending as Town, BTW).

What was the outcome of that game? Scum sweep. I’m calling you bad because you had all this ‘knowledge’ and in the end you weren’t able to convince people to actually follow you. Because your cases were poorly presented and lacked compelling logic.

I want to be kill delayed so I can get one investigation. And it does not depend on tracking the killer; proving somebody did something different to what he claimed is also enough.

LOL. You do understand that scum have no motivation to divert from your ‘direct all night action’ plan anyway so the only way you would catch scum (and not the Serial Killer since they are Track immune) is to observe the Nightkill.

Pure bullshit. Scum wants me to gather as little information as possible, which means me dying D1.

It’s called using logic. You can’t actually refute what I am saying so you just call it bullshit. Weak.

Pointless rhetoric in large font and bolded here …

There is no pro-town motivation for such play.

I chuckle at the if I make it bold and large it becomes more true stance you are taking here.

I’m hunting scum. You are scum.

Scum absolutely terrified to actually vote for the player you think is scum because you know he will take you out.

Scum. There ... I added the last part so you could whine about me calling you scum some more

[MagnaofIllusion]

If you are town, I think scum would be very wary of getting onto your wagon for fear of being vengekilled, so I think they'd have trouble figuring out what to do in this situation. You getting lynched and taking out another townie is the best possible outcome for them, so they wouldn't want to do anything to discourage the wagon, but taking an active part in pushing it carries the risk of getting shot.

So you are saying they’d avoid voting for me because it could get them killed. Just like Iceguy is doing. Noted.

Quilford and hiplop have both pointedly failed to address your wagon in any way, even when I specifically ellicited questions about the case by not explaining my vote. So they'd be my top two.

Regarding Quilford that’s clearly a lie – here is the quote where he specifically comments on my wagon (indirectly) –

I find it incredibly scummy that iama is preparing a reads list in the "unlikely event that MoI is actually town". That reads heavily as scum distancing themselves from the flip. Why aren't we getting a list for the supposedky more likely event that MoI flips scum?

He accuses you of distancing from an eventual Town flip. The inference is that he doesn't see it as a scum wagon (although he can speak for himself on this).

I agree that hiplop is doing a great job of basically not commenting on anything.

My wagon consists of

Mb53 – lurker RVS vote
Conspiracy
Farside
Iam

[MagnaofIllusion]

So you're saying directing night actions is anti-Town, yet you're not pushing for not directing night actions? Or how I'm supposed to interpret this?

WTF is this? Seriously.

I’ve called the people floating the “we have to direct all Night actions” scummy. How is that not pushing for not directing Night actions?

I don’t understand how you can come to any other conclusion.

Oh wait … I take that back … it’s because you are scum.

Except you haven't shown how this is supposed to work. An unsubstantiated claim isn't an argument.

I so want to go get your quote about explaining how Mafia works and post it here.

But I’ll explain.

Under your ‘plan’ all Night actions are directed. Thus scum (including the Serial Killer, who is also scum) knows

1. Exactly who is getting Jailkept.
2. Exactly who is getting Kill delayed.

Thus scum can absolutely make sure their Kills target some to die.

Furthermore let’s look at the list of roles –

Neighborizor and Inventor are able to be directly confirmed in thread simply by claiming of Night actions.

Copycat and Tracker can theoretically be confirmed in thread by the claiming target and any effects BEFORE others claim.

Kill Delayer, JK, and Universal Backup can only be Negatively confirmed (aka by the death of their supposed target) or confirmed by the use of Copycat / Tracker (although I only think Tracker can confirm the UB).

BP, Limited Cop, Doublevoter Invisible Townie, and Vengeful have no Night actions. They can only be Tracked to show the Nightkill (and the Invisible Townie can’t be found this way).

There is no need to direct the Neighborizor / Inventor since those actions can be confirmed in thread. Thus relational tells are created each day as Eric and Bob justify their choices.

You are proposing you not be directed since yours is a scum-hunting role. Thus the Copycat shouldn’t be either for the same reason.

That leaves directing the Kill Delayer, JK and Universal Backup.

Leaving roles like the Copycat and Kill Delayer (and others, since you like to play the nitpick game) free to make choices and justify them give scum less predictable information with which to plan their strategies and makes them more prone to being caught via claims even without a Tracker / Copycat counterclaim. Furthermore there are enough roles without Night actions that it is entirely possible that your plan doesn't hinder Mafia scum at all in accomplishing their goals at Night (and your plan is completely useless against the Serial Killer).

Again ... all making concrete plans in an open game assures that scum know exactly how to 'beat' the system.
Hell go look at Andrius's Return to Mordor game. By Day 2 Town was trying to direct all claimed actions and near endgame Town had a 'foolproof' plan to win that, of course, blew up in their face resulting in a scum win.

(Just kidding, MoI is lying. For instance, a scum Inventor who is supposed to give an item to $player could use his factional kill on him and give it to a scumbuddy instead.)

Even better reason not to direct the Inventor so he has to justify his choices. Glad a little bit of logic has seeped into your head.

Another lie. By Day 3, we had every Town player following us, with the exceptions of SleepyKrew and vezok, two well-known VIs. See, for instance, this rant about vezok's, uhm, play.

You didn't win this game because of your play, you won it despite your play.

What’s that flavor I’m tasting? Is it the flavor of sour grapes?

Yeah, because scum letting a tracker live longer than necessary is obviously logical.

See, you once again are dodging the issue. There is no reason for scum to go after the Tracker slot (assuming the Tracker is Town) for lynch without reasoning. So your point that I'm simply pushing you because you are the Tracker is absurd.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I proposed the direction of Neighborizer, Backup, Inventor on all nights and JK and kill delay on N1 and N2.

Ok, so your plan speaks to direct three powers on all Nights.

1 of which can only be used once. And the other two of which are publicly confirmable without directing.

Good work.

JK and kill delay actions are obvious for N1 and N2 anyway.

Wrong.

Confirmability is not an argument for not directing actions; having a confirmable action is also an advantage for directing actions.

No. Directing actions that are not of great consequence (yes, I'm directly stating that the Neighborize and Inventor powers are not that strong) robs you of any relational tells that can be drawn from that publicly confirmable set of powers.

Dayplay > Nightplay if you are Town. You someday probably will come to understand this.

Except in my example, the inventor doesn't need to justify his choice and can safely lie about it, so your argument is invalid.

No, it’s not invalid. The second the inventor says “Hey, I passed to the dead person” they are going to be under the looking glass. Oh wait ... you don't both with Dayplay for scum-hunting.

Also the inventor’s Pink Beer is publicly confirmable regardless and the double action is publicly confirmed by MOD if it is used for a double kill (which is part of your Appeal to Fear campaign, right?) so you are fearing that the Scum inventor would hand over a watch to his partner again?

Does not Compute.

I'm not saying you're pushing me just because I'm the tracker. It's just that my Tracker ability makes me an excellent target for scum. Do you want to deny this fact?

Can you read? I’ve already gave a detailed and logical explanation as to why it makes no sense.

I’m pushing you because you are scum. Don’t forget that. I added it in so you could cry “He’s repeating it”.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Right. We already agreed on JK actions regarding Seacore.

Um, whut?

1. Who agreed on what again? I said that the N1 JK action was the only action I COULD see as directable, based on my Seacore read.
2. It’s wrong because the Kill delayer (you know, the other role you mentioned) isn’t obv.

I see this as I see night kills: might be useful in special, limited situations; generally an useless pool of WIFOM.

Definitely less useful than the benefits gained from directing.

Since you’ve never listed the benefits of directing that made any sense I’m just going to assume you are going to stick with your position regardless. Nice attempt to spin what I said into WIFOM. Ok not really but I thought your ego could use a boost.

A double kill is well worth the scrutiny which can be defended against by "oh he was SO town-looking to me!".

Do you not think things through? Do I have to explicitly state why this isn’t logical at all?

Inventor gives out Double Action item and scum gets double-kill.

This places the Inventor and the claimed Receiver in a 1 v 1. One of them MUST be scum. No other option.

If it isn’t LYLO you lynch the Inventor. If they flip Town they had no reason to lie about their target and said player is confirmed scum to be lynched the next day (unless the opposing scum faction uses a NK on them, which would be dependant on the gamestate).

If the Inventor flips scum the target isn’t clear but shouldn’t likely be immediately lynched unless the double kill is confirmed Serial Killer (and since don’t have any kill information yet it is impossible to tell if they are distinguished). It’s possible the scum Inventor would try to gambit claim their partner and possible they would try to hang Town. Other relational and gameplay tells come into play.

Yup … you clearly are looking for what ‘looks good' on the surface but doesn’t pass the test of actual play.

Scummy

I can read, and you've failed to give a detailed and logical explanation for just about everything you've claimed. But I don't blame you; it's hard to give a logical explanation for bullshit such as "scum will leave a town tracker alive longer than necessary".

You keep repeating this crap. Why?

If you are Town you are dead at best by the end of Day 2 unless Town JK decides to neutrialize your powers. That gives you 1 possible action.

Under your theory scum would specifically chose to go 1 v 1 with the Town tracker which could result in a scum lynch and 1 possible action.

Thus you are arguing scum would be more willing to risk two of their lives rather than 1. Especially when the first would be a 1 v 1 under your theory.

DOES NOT COMPUTE

.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So, scum trades in the worst case two and in the best case three town deaths for one scum death.

Sounds good. For scum.

No wonder you're endorsing this.

Why don’t you explain where this comes from because you basically seem to be pulling numbers out of the air to bolster your non-existent position and throwing on a heaping pile of rhetoric for good measure.

You know … show your work.

Yeah, and scum is trying to take this one action away from me, by either getting me lynched or vengekilled. Is that so hard to understand?

Lulz. The odds your track actually yields results that confirm scum (assuming for the sake of this argument you are Town which I don’t buy) is pretty low. But sure, ignore the facts that pushing on hypo-Town you as scum makes no logical sense.

Even if you somehow manage to get the tracker lynched, this doesn't mean an autolynch for you.

Yes, when you lynch scum people tend to like that …

[MagnaofIllusion]

I actually used your work. That's just the short version.

Aha … so you think scum getting a 2 for 1 is a good deal for scum. When it’s possible that 1 of said persons could be the Serial Killer.

This is a 8-3-1 setup. For purposes of math the Mafia are outnumbered 9-3 (or a 3 to 1 ratio). Specifically going out of their way to trade 2-1 (in the case of scum Inventor) doesn’t put them in a better position … it weakens them.

For example … let’s include a Day 1 Town lynch and no cross-kill in our calculations here and all kills are successful.

Game starts at 8-3-1.

After night assuming they went with that gambit they are in a 4-3-1 scenario with the scum Inventor lynched Day 2.

Thus going into Night we are in 4-2-1. Scum have barely improved their position (outnumbered 5 to 2 is just below 3-1) and taken themselves one step closer to extinction.

This is a worst case scenario also – there are no cross-kills that make the numbers even worse on that Scum Inventor gambit.

Which is why, of course, the whole "Scum Inventor could pull this off" appeal to fear you have been floating makes no sense.

At least I'll die well-liked when I'm NK'd N2.

Um, whut? If your role is so Town powerful you aren’t getting to N2, remember. The Kill delayer only works to the end of Day 2.

Worried about the Serial Killer when you don’t die by N2?

[MagnaofIllusion]

So the thread has had at least 36 hours to breathe since my last back and forth with Iceguy. Let’s see what has happened.

--

No, I don't think IceGuy is scummy. Yet, I wonder if MoI will be lynched when he deliberately stays of the wagon. Something we can do is wait for a L-2 (not L-1 for quickhammering) and see if two other people want to vote him. Then we will force a third player to vote him, too, and voila, IceGuy is off the wagon.

Direct defense of Iceguy noted.

Lol contradiction. I am not allowed to think someone is scum when his PR is useful, but MoI himself is.
Let's lynch this guy.

Um, that’s a bullshit conclusion and you know it. I don’t think Iceguy is scum because of his claim. I think he’s scum because of his behavior. In fact my stance is exactly the opposite – I will not lynch a player because their role is more useful to scum than Town but will happily lynch a scummy player regardless of role.

Also, what is the use of claiming who is in my neighbourhood? Once said player is in my neighbourhood,

he knows I am confirmed.

If I am roleblocked, I will put myself a 1v1 with Quilford and if I haven't put anyone in my neighbourhood it is noticed very fast. Meh, this way my being neighbourizer is very boring and barely useful at all.

1. Please explain what a successful Neighborization confirms (in the bolded context)
2. What benefits do you have for NOT claiming your Neighbor from the Night before. All it allows is for you to more carefully hide motives if you are scum (including not Neighborizing and making the kill instead). As Town you get no benefit at all that I can see. And yes, secret consulations isn't a benefit when you are the known Neighborizor.

--

Iceguy stated why he wasn't on the wagon.

Um … so what?

His reasoning is not Town-oriented. So just because he stated a reason doesn’t mean it is credible.

Who do you believe is scum on your wagon if you are town?

At this point anyone on my wagon shouldn’t feel safe. Sorry … scum doesn’t get the privilege of knowing whether they have a good chance at getting a double-bag on Town with my lynch.

--

hey moi explain my scum meta right now. Apparently Im playing exactly like it;

even though I've never played with MoI as scum

; and hes never had any reason to look at my meta. If anything, this is my town meta.

The bolded is not accurate.

Your scum meta is basically what you are doing now … hanging back in the background and letting others (Ice, myself, Quilford, etc) drive the conversation. You hop in (get it, it’s a pun ) make really soft, non-scum hunting commentary (ISOs 5, 6, 9), vote with little reasons and no follow-up (ISO 7), make safe comments (ISO 8 where you call two non-suspected people Town, say you have no read on flaker MB53 [who would] ) and react in a way that shows Cognitive Dissonance (ISO 11 where you freak out of me saying you were playing to scum meta without explanation when you did the EXACT same thing to Quilford).

Not Town play in the least.

--

@Mod: V/LA until Friday.

Not surprising in the least that Kondi has given no content and then claims V/LA.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Iceguy has the chance to actually hammer someone he thinks is scum, but of course doesn't take it.

Remember people ... this behavior is not Town oriented behavior. He's scum.

Once I flip please don't be stupid (those of you who are Town) and forget this. The Serial Killer would do well to shoot him tonight regardless as it gives them a chance to avoid being endgamed early.

[MagnaofIllusion]

hey moi link to a game where ive ever played like that as scum

I will when able. Link me to completed games as scum when you DON'T play that way.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why no links then?

[MagnaofIllusion]

ive never played like that as scum, except my first game

It appears you aren't even able to link a SINGLE game.

It's not shitlogic .... rhetoric a little more.

But PLEASE stay on my wagon ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

wat, i never said its not possible, i said what hes saying is utter BS. He never brought up any games, so i had nothing to counter with

See this steams me. Are you too stupid to understand the reason that I haven’t mentioned the specific game is because it is on-going or are you scum hoping to capitalize on that fact.

--

Lawl, you are allowed to lynch anyone you think is scummy regardless of their role, but if I find someone scummy I may only push his lynch when the role is bad?
That is a contradiction and you know it.

No, it’s not.

Your reason for suspecting Quilford, as far as I can see, is the following –

1. You find his initial post where he calls three random people scum to be scummy.
2. His reaction to your and Iam’s suspicion is scummy.

That’s all from the back and forth I can see on quick scan. I don’t find either reason compelling in the least. Thus why I suspect your push is driven by other reasons (aka his JK status).

1. A succesful Neighbourization confirms that I used my power.

Yup and publicly disclosing this in thread and having target confirm also makes this public knowledge. It also forces you to provide possible links for future scum-hunting consideration. Thus very Pro-Town.

2. Let my tell you how my neighbourizing works. I have one QT that every body can read when being in it. Three situations:
a) I don't target anyone at start. Future neighbours can see this.
b) I don't target anyone later on. Present neighbours can see this
c) I don't target anyone at all. If we have every body that's about to be lynched say that they are in circle or not, it is noticed soon that I don't use my power.
So there is no reason for me to out my neighbours. On top of that, there is no fun in neighbourizing when it is outed.

No, your method isn’t nearly as useful to Town scum-hutning efforts. Public links are better than keeping things private. All three rely on ‘waiting’ on information to be revealed at a later date when simply stating it in thread immediately the next day is a much simpler and more effective method.

Furthermore your worry about “fun” really isn’t worthy of mentioning. Town should be worried solely about finding scum and lynching them. That your actions being public as the best means of scum-hunting for Town overall reduces your ‘fun’ is just a hazard of the set-up.

[MagnaofIllusion]

This post makes me feel all squeeky and giggly. Like a person who happily caught scum.

MOI knows if he was town scum would be worried about pushing for his lynch that is why he keeps goading Iceguy to vote for him. However scum would want the person who is town that has the most powerful on the wagon so he can shoot him.

Oh, Farside … so you are either scum or just playing terribly.

I’m trying to decipher what exactly the babble in the second part means. This is what I can decrypt ...

1. Town MoI knows scum are worried about pushing his lynch.

That’s true and I’ve said it when calling Iceguy scum. Yet you and many other keep saying “Oh, he doesn’t need to be on the lynch”. So apparently you are the one who doesn't understand the point apparently.

2. Scum MoI wants the most powerful Town role on the wagon.

Sure, I guess. I could quibble about what is the most Powerful Town role or whether taking out the best player would be better but don’t really care since I'm Town.

If you can point out how that statement supports your 'giddy, happy' statement I'd love to see it.

Also I missed that one post from MOI what makes IceGuy scum......Yeah the post that IceGuy did that MOI hasn't. Makes me more and more happy with my vote.

Of course you did. I didn't make one. I’ve already made my opinions clear in my back and forth with Ice-scum.

Your desire for a single post because you dislike reading doesn’t really move me. Ice is scum for his misrepresentation of my position multiple times, his constant Appeals to Fear and Repetition (use of mudslinging over and over when it doesn’t apply at all), his inability to justify his position in a logical manner, and his fear of voting who he claims is confirmed scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Congrats scum - your good decision in endgame and overall better play means the win is deserved.

Thanks for the SmallTown game Fonz! Your set-up was well balanced I think and you ran the game as smoothly and efficently.

I think the Dead QT has any relevant thoughts of mine regarding the game itself or the players.